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ebo
2:22 AM
@DavidCarlisle @egreg @AlanMunn FYI, I've created this question (adding \chapter in KOMA scrbook generates a “! LaTeX Error: \do undefined.”) as follow-up of Handling _ (underscores) in a macro's comma-separated list of arguments. (Note that I have not implemented your solutions in the MWE, since the problem occurs even without them.)
 
 
3 hours later…
4:54 AM
@ebo Wouldn't that be a much simpler MWE?
\documentclass{scrbook}
\newcommand{\do}{}
\begin{document}
\renewcommand{\do}{}
\chapter{Wombat}
\renewcommand{\do}{}
\end{document}
 
5:05 AM
@ebo The standard classes provide what they provide. Enough for most of us. Packages can adjust things. KOMA-classes are different by now. Over the years they became more and more obstructed with complicated code. Via an interface, you can create as many chapter and section like macros as you want, you just need to know what you are doing. And read the manual, if this helps.
Someone with a recent TeX installation will need to have a look at this and might even report it as a bug (if this behaviour is not intentional). Looking at @esdd, @Schweinebacke and @Ulrike :-)
 
5:22 AM
Just reading on meta about sans serif maths. Reads like a speach of a poitician.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:38 AM
@DavidCarlisle I use it mainly for having Lua comments (had my problems with \directlua, probably because of the line break thing).
 
8:16 AM
@TeXnician yes you have to use % for comments in \directlua
 
@DavidCarlisle Yeah, and I wanted to have "real scripts" just in the TeX file. Therefore I came to luacode. It seemed just easier for later distribution. My main module should be luadoc compatible.
 
@ebo \do is a bad command to use for your own purposes, it's used all over latex
@TeXnician trouble is with luacode is that it does an anwful lot and I can never remember what it does. It gives up on expandability as well and then I'm never sure whether if I tex.sprint something it will come inside or outside the groups luacode sets up for catcodes. It's all documented but just using \directlua always seems simpler
 
@DavidCarlisle Okay, maybe I currently do not care about expandibility. Maybe this will trouble me later, but currently I'm fine with it. It's just difficult to document...
 
@TeXnician you should always care about expandability:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle \expandafter\noexpand?
 
8:47 AM
@DavidCarlisle nice answer!
 
@Moriambar yes except I got raggedleft/right the wrong way round so was flushing to the outer edge, just edited it. If you'd have used the optional marginpar argument I would have deleted mine (your answer appeared just as I was cropping the image, but since it didn't i left mine in:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle in fact I did not know about the optional parameter. That's nice!
 
 
1 hour later…
10:12 AM
@mico ... and with this comment: tex.stackexchange.com/questions/367392/… the OP goes straight on in the "do-not-answer-to-these-ones" list...
 
@CarLaTeX Probably a good idea. Have you flagged the comment?
 
@CarLaTeX Honestly, the word Vollpfosten slipped my mind when reading that.
 
@Johannes_B I thought of something similar.
 
@TeXnician Flagged
@Johannes_B I agree!
 
10:38 AM
@CarLaTeX @TeXnician Ups, just left a comment.
 
@Johannes_B Probably you should answer all other question you're into first. Maybe he has read the docs till then ;)
 
@TeXnician Moewe is our biblatex guy. I thought he woud have answered by now.
 
11:06 AM
@TeXnician @CarLaTeX I voted to close as duplicate. I also wrote a just code answer.
 
@Johannes_B A good idea.
 
11:25 AM
@Johannes_B Voted to close, too!
 
11:47 AM
@CarLaTeX closed
 
@Johannes_B Typo in this very useful comment.
 
@TeXnician There used to be a comment section. There was a comment where i warned people of the troubles that template might bring. Comment section gone. That is what i call caring for users :-/
 
12:43 PM
"Do you want a coke or anything?" This made me laugh so hard right now.
 
1:43 PM
Great Sunday to you all!
 
@PauloCereda Likewise :-)
 
@Johannes_B thank you, mr. penguin! <3
 
@AlanMunn lol
 
1:58 PM
@PauloCereda Señor Pato <3
 
@Johannes_B Señor Penguino <3
 
2:19 PM
@ChristianHupfer: ooh a new Twitter bloke
 
@PauloCereda Sssssssssssssssssssssssh!
 
@ChristianHupfer don't worry, ducks are good at secrets. :)
 
@PauloCereda Objection mylord. Proof: Evidence A: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/37067034#37067034 ;-)
 
@ChristianHupfer it says a random Twitter bloke. :)
 
@PauloCereda If it would be really random you wouldn't have addressed me :D
 
2:24 PM
@ChristianHupfer ooh but it's like if I am telling you about the fact. :)
@Johannes: we have a new Twitter bloke, definitely not @ChristianHupfer. :)
@ChristianHupfer ^^ see :)
 
@PauloCereda They should rename Twitter to Quack ;-) Or DuckGossip
 
@ChristianHupfer we ducks do not gossip. :)
 
@PauloCereda I will attack you with a banana ;-) Defend yourself!
 
@ChristianHupfer I don't have a 16ton weight. :)
 
@PauloCereda Well, that's good for me then ;-)
 
2:32 PM
@PauloCereda I have been looking for @blackForester. I wouldn't have guessed that user name.
 
@PauloCereda 16 ton duck. Yummy!
 
@Johannes_B That's most likely not possible. I am pretty sure there is already such one
 
@ChristianHupfer Yes. Some blokes.
 
@TeXnician oh no
 
@TeXnician Don't do that. @PauloCereda will think you like to eat roasted duck ;-)
 
2:34 PM
@ChristianHupfer oh no
 
Listening to the same radio station for 10 hours. I am starting to hear a pattern. The very same songs all over again. three or four hour loop. :-(
 
@Johannes_B Most modern radio devices do have a button to switch them off ;-)
 
@TeXnician: the only time I had duck in my life was when I went to a Chinese restaurant. It's certainly a meat I hadn't enjoyed. This adventure also made me eat rice with chopsticks! :)
 
@PauloCereda Rice with chopsticks is great. But you really need compatible rice, else you'll end like those:
 
@TeXnician ooh :)
 
3:07 PM
@ChristianHupfer La oreja de Van Gogh is now playing.
 
3:25 PM
@PauloCereda First time on the radio :-D
I knew it. It will be the next summer hit.
 
@Johannes_B Yes, it's known he had just one.
 
New single by Shakira on the radio. :-)
@egreg There is also a spanish band with that name :-)
 
@Johannes_B Maybe they recovered the missing one.
 
@egreg Possible :-)
 
4:21 PM
An iPad is more expensive than a Nintendo Switch... :(
 
I am trying to submit a package to CTAN.
The package is called modular.
In the top directory, I have modular.sty.
I used to have the source file for the documentation, modular.tex also in the top directory. However, the CTAN people want me to move the documentation to a doc/ directory.
I'm happy to do that, but modular.tex uses modular.sty. How can I make \usepackage{modular} work in modular.tex when modular.sty is in the parent directory?
 
@DanielSank are you talking abut a .tds.zip archive with the TDS layout, or the actual ctan directory (which is usually flat with no sub directories)
 
@DavidCarlisle Let's say I have no idea what TDS is.
 
@DanielSank well you can use TEXINPUTS=..: pdflatex modular or just move the files after you have made the pdf.
 
@DanielSank That will be fine: once the code is installed then modular.sty is available as ususal
 
4:25 PM
@JosephWright Yes but wouldn't it be nice to be able to build the documentation without having to install?
For example, I don't have my own package installed yet! :-)
 
@DanielSank tex directory structure, that is the layout with macros in tex/latex/modular/modular.sty doc in doc/latex/modular/modular.pdf
 
Here, let me illustrate the directory structure:
 
@DanielSank Sure, but you don't have to build with anything split up; moreover, normally for CTAN upload you have everything in one directory (unless your package is very big)
 
but something is very odd as almost all ctan submissions just have a single directory, why are they asking you to make a doc subdirectory?
 
├── doc
│   ├── content.tex
│   ├── coseoul_limitations.tex
│   ├── example
│   │   ├── article_fail.tex
│   │   ├── article.tex
│   │   └── octopus
│   │       ├── article.tex
│   │       ├── content.tex
│   │       ├── habitat.tex
│   │       └── lifecycle.tex
│   ├── introduction.tex
│   ├── modular.tex
│   ├── modular_to_the_rescue.tex
│   ├── prerequisites.tex
│   └── README.md
├── modular.sty
└── README.md
It's big because I put examples of how to use the package in there.
This package is designed to help compose documents modularly, so naturally the examples involve a lot of files ;-)
 
4:27 PM
@DanielSank Why not just upload 'flat'?
@DanielSank Eeek, a file called article.tex!
2
 
@JosephWright Because I want to illustrate how to use the package.
@JosephWright Yup.
Is that bad?
 
@JosephWright :)
 
@DanielSank Are you kidding?
 
try to avoid names like introduction article` etc, if they get into the tex input path they are likely to affect rather too much
 
@JosephWright No.
 
4:28 PM
@DanielSank You've got two files with the same name in the tree: disaster
 
@JosephWright Why is that a disaster?
You know, when people do stuff that you think is terrible, it's probably because they don't know the stuff you know that lets you know that it's terrible.
 
@DanielSank TeX uses file name alone to find files
 
@DanielSank because it is undefined which file you get if you go \input{foo} and there are too files called foo.tex in the input tree.
 
@DanielSank In your installed TeX tree, apart from a few special cases there are no two files with the same name
 
@JosephWright It is in the doc folder so I don't think it is a disaster (but would prefer a more unique name too).
 
4:29 PM
@DavidCarlisle Uh, isn't that why we have paths?
@JosephWright That... makes me very, very sad.
I must be missing something very important.
 
@DanielSank yes but the default path is /tex/latex// which means any file recursively below that and the order is then undefined
 
The whole point of this package is to make modular document composition easy. If I have to keep file names unique across all of my projects, then I might as well go shoot myself.
@DavidCarlisle Oh so the uniqueness constraint only applies to packages? My sources can do whatever they want with file names?
 
@DanielSank Local files are your own business: the concern here is that once this goes to CTAN they will be in the system tree (admittedly in the doc part but even so)
 
Ok, that's less bad than I thought a minute ago.
 
@DanielSank no it is nothing to do with packages, which are a latex convention, it is the way the kpathsea path searching library in the executable works.
 
4:32 PM
@DavidCarlisle Dude, suppose I have two projects: one is an article about octopuses and the other is an article about horses.
 
@DanielSank 'Things found by kpsewhich', so the doc tree is 'less problematic'
 
Both have a content.tex file (because that's how I do things).
I've never seen that cause a problem.
I use \import to compose pieces together into a bigger article about octopuses and horses.
I've never seen name collisions cause a problem.
 
@DanielSank They'll both be 'here' so that's less of an issue ('here' is searched first)
 
@JosephWright Well, I also figured that since the import package seems to support files paths correctly, it's really not a problem.
 
@DanielSank Anyway, back to CTAN: normally if you upload with a 'structure' they want the tex and doc parts separately
 
4:33 PM
It even gets relative paths right!
(which is how I expect computers to work)
 
@DanielSank but if you put that file on ctan then by default if anyone anywhere types latex content they will typeset your file, is that what you want? (to see what I mean cd to any directory and type latex small2e
 
@DavidCarlisle Yes yes I get it. In CTAN there are stricter rules. As I said before, it sounds like I should make the names unique here, but that it's not important that I do that in my own projects.
 
@DavidCarlisle That's in tex, of course, not doc: as @UlrikeFischer points out, doc is 'safer'
 
@JosephWright Yes, back to CTAN.
 
@DanielSank not ctan, a tex distribution. I would not want a file called content.tex being installed into my tex tree when i update texlive
 
4:35 PM
@DavidCarlisle Yes yes I get that.
Thanks!
I hadn't appreciated this before.
I will keep my package filenames unique.
Now, I have to say that I think you're lying to me.
 
@JosephWright yes but @DanielSank was submitting to ctan without a .tds.zip file, so by default that's the same thing.
 
There is no way that all packages have all their files with unique names.
 
@DanielSank For your upload (not local building), they are asking for you to have your sty inside something like <upload>/<package>/tex as you have <upload>/<package>/doc. You probably want a build script to make the appropriate .zip
@DanielSank See my comment earlier!
 
@DanielSank why not?
 
@DavidCarlisle Because statistics, and everyone has a README.
Clearly uniqueness only matters with certain types of files, yes?
 
4:37 PM
@DavidCarlisle Hm. But there are already two contents.tex in your doc-folder ;-). And one article.tex.
 
@DanielSank README are not tex files that are searched or input.
 
@DavidCarlisle No, there's a doc tree: TeX Live/MiKTeX will map to texmf/latex/doc
 
@DavidCarlisle Got it.
 
@DanielSank yes of course but any file used by the package
 
@JosephWright Ok let's talk about this.
 
4:37 PM
@DanielSank File extensions are important here: different parts of the tree are searched for different ones
 
I would like to make it so that someone who clones my git repo can build the documentation without having to do anything fancy.
Therefore, I'd like the documentation to work without a "build" step.
 
@JosephWright yes but I just meant ctan won't (automatically) be able to distinguish doc from code) without a tds zip
 
Do you see what I mean?
 
@DanielSank See e.g.
61
Q: What is good practice when preparing a package for CTAN?

Brent.LongboroughI'm thinking of submitting a package to CTAN, and would like some hints which will help keep the path as smooth as possible for me, the CTAN administators, and the final users. Please tell me what I should take care with in doing this. In particular, the doubts I have are: I'm not a top-drawer...

2
 
@DanielSank Why worry about that? There's you doing the development, and everyone else getting the code via TeX Live or MiKTeX
 
4:38 PM
Perhaps using my package to build its own documentation was a mistake?
 
@DanielSank yes what i do is arrange stuff however is convenient but have a build script that makes the ctan zip that just moves things into whatever structure is required for the zip
 
@DanielSank No, it's common to have a demo, but usually something like mypkg.tex loading mypkg.sty and showing it off
 
@DanielSank The location matters. Below the tex-folder you need to be quite careful. But the doc folder is safe. But you should name your documentation with an unique name -- it is simply a pain, when every manual is called "manual.pdf"
 
@DavidCarlisle @DanielSank That's exactly what I do too.
 
@DanielSank Remember 'building for a test locally' and 'building for CTAN' are not the same :)
 
4:40 PM
@DavidCarlisle Are you suggesting that I upload the documentation pdf but not the tex file that produces that pdf?
@JosephWright I'm starting to understand that.
 
@DanielSank No, that way you won't get it into TeX Live (have to have the sources)
 
@DanielSank No, TeX Live, at least, requires source to be uploaded too.
 
Then I am still confused.
My documentation requires modular.
Someone please explain how to make that work.
 
@DanielSank no (that would prevent it being included in texlive for "open source" rules) but you can move the tex and the pdf after building them and before making the zip file for ctan
 
Move them where? If I move them, then the sources will be there but they won't work!
What's the point of including a source file that doesn't work?
Or should I assume that someone trying to build the source has already installed my package?
That seems like a bad assumption to me.
 
4:42 PM
@DanielSank There are a few ways: probably the easiest is to have everything in one directory locally and use a script that copies the files into your chosen structure for the zip
 
@DanielSank they will work because when modular package is installed the doc will work using that installed package it doesn't need a local copy
 
@DanielSank You can do that using a symlink approach: that's what I do for beamer (as I inherited the structure so am stuck with it)
 
@DavidCarlisle Ok, so you're saying that I should assume someone building the docs has installed the package already?
 
@DanielSank Certainly the easiest way to go forward
 
@JosephWright Symlinks in a CTAN package o_O
 
4:43 PM
@DanielSank No, on your local system
 
@DanielSank 99.99% of people will not build the docs they will go tlmgr update (or the miktex equivalent) and get the package installed and doc including reaqdy made .pdf installed
 
Guys, listen, please: I am trying to support two things:
1) CTAN
2) Someone downloading my repo and trying to build the examples and docs.
 
@DanielSank bemear has a doc and a tex tree in the sources, so I symlink the tex one to my localtexmf and then can build the docs
@DanielSank To a good approximation the second doesn't happen
 
lol
ok
@JosephWright Then wtf is the point of including the doc sources?
 
@DanielSank Because texlive won't include your pdf if you don't upload also the sources.
 
4:45 PM
@DanielSank texlive will not include the pdf if there is no source. due to its open source rules
 
@DanielSank It allows for compliance with open source ideas, most importantly that someone could fork the code if they wished.
 
Seriously? I'm supposed to include doc sources that don't build just to make texlive happy?
@JosephWright That makes me angry/sad/depressed.
 
@DanielSank why will they not build?
 
@DanielSank Why?
 
Let me see if I can explain this more clearly. I'm not doing a good job.
I'm used to python. If I want to develop a package, I clone the source git repo, and then install it into a virtual environment.
I do not install it into a system-wide search path. That would be insane.
 
4:47 PM
@DanielSank Why?
 
I would like to avoid the need for developers to have to globally install my package in order to work on the source.
@JosephWright Because that would be absolutely horrible.
 
@DanielSank Put everything in one directory
 
I could have version conflicts,
name collisions,
python version conflicts,
conflicting dependencies...
@JosephWright That would make illustrating the package's features a bit tricky ;-)
I guess the compromise to make is as you're all saying: assume the package is install when someone tries to build the docs.
 
@DanielSank Back to the point we've been round a few times: files in TeX are referred to by name only, the paths don't matter so in one project all of the file names should be unique
 
@DanielSank but tex isn't python. Also unlike python the vast majority of tex users are not developers in that sense so the rules are different
2
 
4:49 PM
The problem with that is that if a developer makes changes to the package, how can they possibly test them if the original version is installed?!
@JosephWright I don't mind fixing that.
@DavidCarlisle Right, so I'm trying to understand how to do this best.
 
@DavidCarlisle @DanielSank I can confirm: used LaTeX for 17 years before developing a single line of code
 
@DanielSank joseph and I are on the latex development team, we almost always have local versions of latex as well as the texlive installed versions lying around, you just have to manage the search paths, it works well enough.
 
@DavidCarlisle You install LaTeX separately for each package you work on?
That's kind of how it works in the python world.
 
@DanielSank I'd arrange the code in your Git repo 'as you like' they use a script that arranges it (a zip) 'as CTAN like' for upload: a developer can clone your Git repo if they want to, the rest of us can use the install version from CTAN/TL/MiKTeX
 
@DanielSank no, did I say that (actually sometimes yes but ignore that:-)
 
4:52 PM
@JosephWright Ok let's go with this.
 
@Moriambar I have used LaTeX for about three months...
 
But then I'm uploading documentation source files that will not build. Confirm that this is ok.
 
@DanielSank More or less this is what we do for the LaTeX kernel releases :)
 
@DanielSank why won't they build?
 
@DanielSank Not ideal but I don't follow why they won't build
 
4:53 PM
@DavidCarlisle Correction: will not build unless the package is already installed.
 
@TeXnician I'm not that much of a developer. But I printed 2 books and several other things with LaTeX. I used for what it was intended: typeset beautiful documents
 
@DanielSank But as you are uploading to CTAN the package will be installed as soon as the documentation is installed. It is both in the same texlive/miktex package.
 
@DanielSank if the package is in texlive essentially no one will have the documentation without having an installed version of the package, it's a non-issue.
 
@Moriambar Me too. But also for awful ones (like the supervisor wanted me to).
 
@DanielSank Installing from CTAN you are always going to install the package part: it's the docs that are optional
 
4:54 PM
@UlrikeFischer @DavidCarlisle Interesting...
I will go fix things up in a way I think makes sense given what you all have generously explained.
 
@TeXnician well I always found that the things I wanted to do were already done by existing packages
 
I will be back in a few minutes with a github link for your scrutinizing pleasure...
 
@DanielSank Almost all LaTeX package documentation uses the packages it's about (for demos): it's a more-or-less universal assumption that the package itself will be available to build the docs
 
^ Aha!
Ok I'm getting a feel here.
 
@DanielSank But you shouldn't try to build in the doc-folder (with miktex it won't work correctly anyway), it would clutter the folder with log-files etc. If I really want to build a documentation I copy it to a temp folder.
 
4:55 PM
@DanielSank The only place one sees 'bootstrapping' from a non-installed TeX system is in the LaTeX kernel scripts, and even there this is more historical than required nowadays
 
Yeah, I think I'm getting the picture.
 
@Moriambar You're right, but my supervisor liked what I've done with LaTeX (had used Word before) and told me to make it a template (now new students are forced to use LaTeX). That's when I started to get into writing a class (bad code!).
 
I hadn't fully appreciated that the source repo and the CTAN format can be so different.
Ok ok
 
@DanielSank :)
 
@DanielSank never underestimate the power of cp to distort a file tree:-)
 
4:57 PM
::grump::
IMHO, the less shell script in a project the better.
2
::grump grump::
 
@DanielSank we could sell you l3build the cross platform build script written by Joseph;-)
 
@DanielSank For the LaTeX sources we use Lua (as all systems with TeX have LuaTeX)
 
@DavidCarlisle ::shoots cloud of ink and jets away in fear::
 
@DanielSank well basically to make latex or most of our packages, you can go git pull ; texlua build.lua ctan and it'll update the repo, run all the tests, copy all the files into a ctan friendly tree and make a zip file ready for upload.
 
Well that's cool.
Oh crap, I just noticed I have two different licenses listed in two different places.
 
5:01 PM
@DanielSank ooh because you are an octopus
@David: see? Ducks are smart!
 
^ yes
hahahahaha
 
@PauloCereda s/smart/tasty/
2
 
Grah! so much redundancy between the README and the header in the sty.
::grump::
 
@DavidCarlisle you are mean
 
Agreed. I now fear for my life.
I do not wish to be octotaco.
Interestingly, the Japanese word for octopus (at least as a food) is "tako".
So mixing languages, we could have tako taco.
Disclaimer: I do not condone the consumption of octopus as a food. They are beautiful and intelligent creatures and if you eat them they will one day emerge from the sea with advanced technology and conquer us all.
 
5:07 PM
@DanielSank ooh
 
Do I need license headers everywhere or just in the README and the sty?
@JosephWright You've suggested going "flat". How do you feel about having a doc/ directory?
I really hesitate to try to upload this thing totally flat. It would be a complete mess.
Maybe I should just not include the example folder in the CTAN upload.
 
5:22 PM
@DanielSank as we said originally it's very unusual to have a doc directory in ctan (they probably just suggested it in your case to help isolate the filenames) it is of course common in the texlive installed structure.
 
Hmmmm
Perhaps I can flatten doc...
 
@DanielSank I usually try to keep the header down to a minimal one or two lines but have it in all the files.
 
@DavidCarlisle Oh, don't I need all that mumbo jumbo about the license?
I guess you're saying I don't...
 
@DanielSank it depends on the licence.
 
The LaTeX one.
I basically want one that says "do whatever you want but plz credit me".
 
5:24 PM
@DanielSank well picking one of my packages at random, say colortbl, the .sty file says:
$ more /usr/local/texlive/2017/texmf-dist/tex/latex/colortbl/colortbl.sty
%%
%% This is file `colortbl.sty',
%% generated with the docstrip utility.
%%
%% The original source files were:
%%
%% colortbl.dtx  (with options: `package')
%%
%%
%% Source File: `colortbl.dtx'.
%% Copyright 1996 1998 1999 2012 David Carlisle
%%
%% This file may be distributed under the terms of the LPPL.
%% See readme for details.
%%
 
ah, it defers to the readme.
Ok
 
@DanielSank which is still more than I'd like (I may customise docstrip to omit the generated with stuf next time
@DanielSank the README is actually even shorter:-)
$ more /home/dpctex/colortbl/README
The colortbl package:

   Add colour to LaTeX tables. Requires array and color packages.
   Process colortbl.ins to produce the package file colortbl.sty.
   Process colortbl.dtx to get the documentation (this requires
   longtable hhline and dcolumn from the standard `tools'
   distribution.)
 
ah
So the only reference to the license is the brief mention in the .sty. Ok.
Aesthetic question:
 
@DanielSank and in the original documented source of the package, which says
 
My documentation is split into four .tex files.
Would you rather those be all in the top level, or in a doc subdir?
 
5:28 PM
$ more /home/dpctex/colortbl/colortbl.dtx
% \iffalse
%%
%% Source File: `colortbl.dtx'.
%% Copyright 1996 1998 1999 2012 David Carlisle
%%
%% This file may be distributed under the terms of the LPPL.
%% See readme for details.
%%
%
 
Oh man, what a mess. Having the source repo and the CTAN upload differ is really painful.
modular.tex has a line like this:
\submiport*{./doc/}{content.tex}
If I move modular.tex into the doc directory, then that line doesn't work any more.
 
@DanielSank I'm still wondering (as in my initial comment) why you need a doc directory for ctan but if they asked for one you may as well put all the doc in it, but browse around ctan eg ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/required/amsmath and you will just see a single directory for even a whole collection of packages such as amsmath, with package and documentation code together
 
@DavidCarlisle I don't need it. It just felt more organized.
Actually, I did just get an email saying that I should put modular.tex in the doc directory...
Oh brother this is a total mess.
 
5:48 PM
@TeXnician oh I see. We did not have mandatory things, but basically you had to use LaTeX to produce an acceptable document. All knew about it
 
@Moriambar Yeah, and we had Word templates, which were incompatible with my old TSWTMNBMH installation.
 
@TeXnician I don't know how this is possible… I think it's awful. Good for you that you manage to snick LaTeX in
 
@Moriambar Because there was a new format in TSWTMNBMH 2007, and I had TSWTMNBMH 2000. Yeah and it was really the right thing to get into LaTeX (which fortunately has no such bad format changes).
 
@DavidCarlisle wait… this sounds interesting… tell me more about this thing you mentioned :)
@TeXnician Well, there will changes when L3 will be out, I guess… but we won't be here to see that day, so we'll be fine :P.
 
@Moriambar I agree. There's no problem with a change to a new format (L3); when I'm a pensioner I have time for that ;)
 
5:58 PM
@TeXnician you know, you've been using LaTeX for so little time… When I started I was reluctant to use it, because version 2e was out but "LaTeX3 will soon be available", so I left it there for a couple of years, then needed it and used it badly. It's been almost 20 years now. It surely looked it would come out sooner then than now
:)
now it's snooker time.
 
6:22 PM
@Moriambar texdoc l3build
@Moriambar still saying "selby has won already" ?
 
@DavidCarlisle thnks
@DavidCarlisle I'm rephrasing "he will win eventually"
tonight he will go out only 1 down
I would love Higgins to win but it's unrealistic :)
 
Thanks @DavidCarlisle @JosephWright and others for the advice. I wrote a broke-ass shell script to munge everything into a format that should avoid problems and make CTAN (and Texlive) happy.
And I used symlinks in the source repo to make developers (i.e. me) happy.
 
 
1 hour later…
8:01 PM
@DavidCarlisle it's fantastic!
 
@Moriambar Package management: level up ;)
 
8:18 PM
@Moriambar @JosephWright wrote it:-)
 
8:29 PM
@DavidCarlisle @JosephWright has been great! Easy to use, really easy to customize (even without knowing lua) fantastic documentation. I made it do everything but use tar, but I guess zip is fine too :)
@TeXnician indeed
@DavidCarlisle I'm starting to doubt my words
 
8:46 PM
L3 question: Is there any rationale for all the spaces around delimiters?
 
@AlanMunn having made space ignorable, add as many as possible?
 
@DavidCarlisle :) Yeah, something like that. It's also kind of ironic for a language related to typesetting: all the source has really bad kerning.
 
@AlanMunn you mean like \cs_new:Npn \@@_maxmin:wwN #1 ; #2 ; #3 ?
 
@DavidCarlisle And many other similar abominations.
@DavidCarlisle To me the spaces tend to make the code less readable rather than more.
 
@AlanMunn even in 2e code Frank and Chris tend to use more spaces than I would, if you see \long \def \@yargdef #1#2#3{% in latex.ltx, it's not a line I wrote:-) But it's just a style choice, you can get used to a spaced out style:-)
 
8:57 PM
@DavidCarlisle Yes, that also hurts to look at. Yes, it is a style, but I wonder why people like it.
 
@AlanMunn wel arguably it's similar to writing fun(a, b, c) rather than fun(a,b,c) in fortran or C etc, and that's quite common
 
@DavidCarlisle Well that's not so bad, but we don't write fun ( a, b, c ) do we. Or even "better" fun ( a , b , c ).
 
@AlanMunn I was trying my best to defend collective responsibility, don't make it too difficult for me:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle :)
@DavidCarlisle When I was writing Fortran code, the engineers were always freaked out by my use of lower case and indenting. :) What language is this?
 
@AlanMunn we have just switched our fortran doc to lowercase this year (actually the public version is still uppercase)
 
9:21 PM
! LaTeX Error: \begin{document} ended by \end{ducument}.David Carlisle 4 mins ago
@DavidCarlisle: I wonder it's not \end{duckument} @PauloCereda ;-)
 
9:36 PM
@ChristianHupfer :-)
 
@ChristianHupfer @PauloCereda @DavidCarlisle
\let\duckoment\document
\let\endduckoment\enddocument

\documentclass{article}

\begin{duckoment}
Paulo's thesis
\end{duckoment}
6
 
@UlrikeFischer :D
@UlrikeFischer: You forgot \author{E. L. Ducktorow} ;-)
 
@UlrikeFischer LOL
 
@ChristianHupfer I'm thinking about a ducklatex-format ;-)
 
@UlrikeFischer Hm, every macro has the prefix \quack then?
 
9:54 PM
@DavidCarlisle still convinced that Selby has the upper hand
 
@UlrikeFischer far too long to be @PauloCereda's thesis.
5
 
\documentclass{minimal}
\begin{document}
P’s th
\end{document}
 
@Moriambar delete line 3
 
@DavidCarlisle ahhaha
\documentclass{minimal}
\begin{document}
\end{document}
@DavidCarlisle better now? I think it's perfection!
 
@Moriambar If I were his external examiner I'd say there were no errors in the text.
 
9:57 PM
@DavidCarlisle and you wouldn't be lying
 
10:13 PM
Do mandatory arguments trigger the -NoValue- when left empty (i.e. \command{} ) in expl3?
 
@Moriambar No
 
@egreg darn!
it's the end of my fake-mandatory arguments :D
@egreg thanks
 
 
1 hour later…
11:19 PM
@cfr I see you're making prescriptivist edits! less -> fewer :-)
 
11:45 PM
@UlrikeFischer Maybe you're interested in this mountain walk
@UlrikeFischer Perhaps we find Paulo’s thesis at the top.
3
 

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