TeX, LaTeX and Friends

12:04 AM

@Amar I live in Shepherd's Bush in West London, but I was in Victoria Station when I was writing that.

@SeanAllred Yes, it turns out programs can be released under multiple licences provided they're compatible, which mean XeTeX will be available under the GPL and its own MIT-like licence.

@SeanAllred I already knew that theoretically, but the practical implications had escaped me.

Sean Allred

@ArthurReutenauer Count me as confused.

Arthur Reutenauer

In any case, that means that the "industry" really shouldn't be afraid of using GPL programs.

Amar

@ArthurReutenauer Ahh, nice! I like that area .. some of my buddies used to live there .. it's very convenient to reach by bus from Oxford, where I used to be :) .. coz, the bus used to catch less traffic than further up main london

Arthur Reutenauer

@Amar Yes, I often see buses from Oxford to London.

@SeanAllred Well,

(dammit, hit Send to

Sean Allred

@ArthurReutenauer XD happens to me all the time

Arthur Reutenauer

12:18 AM

(too fast. Anyway) It's been explained to me by Karl Berry, in charge of TeX Live: a program can be under multiple licences, and we don't have to change the licences of the individual source files.

Arthur Reutenauer

12:31 AM

Signing off for the night.

Amar

@ArthurReutenauer Good night!

Sean Allred

1:33 AM

@PauloCereda Evil? yea/nay: redd.it/37qqyz

remind me to think about the fact that yea and nay rhyme whenever I start to thinking English makes sense

@ArthurReutenauer But don't the GPL and MIT clash? The MIT allows its source to be redistributed in proprietary systems whereas the GPL expressly forbids it.

Joseph Wright

4:46 AM

@SeanAllred The copyright holder can license code however they like. For example, one sees GPL code that is also available in proprietary versions. Provided all contributors accept this when they add stuff that is fine.

Arthur Reutenauer

7:49 AM

@SeanAllred That's not clashing, it simply means that we need to follow the most restrictive condition and distribute XeTeX with the sources. Which we obviously do.

@SeanAllred The MIT licence does not forbid from distributing with the sources. If a father tells his 14-year old "Of course, you may go to the cinema with your friends this weekend" and the teenager's mother say "No, you may not", the only logical thing to do is to do what the mother d'au

*said.

@SeanAllred Of course, if the teenager is anyone but Sheldon Cooper they won't do that at all ;-) The argument with the mother might actually try to pretend there is a contradiction and run along the lines of "But daddy told me to go".

@JosephWright This discussion started with the discussion of bug 54 of XeTeX, in case you're interested.

Joseph Wright

@ArthurReutenauer I'm aware of that issue

moose

9:28 AM

Hi, I've got a short symbol identification question

Can anybody identify this symbol: martin-thoma.de/write-math/view/?raw_data_id=281058 ?

(equals sign with a dot over it and a half-circle over the dot)

I've got a couple of those in my symbol classifier: martin-thoma.de/write-math/view/?raw_data_id=220969 and martin-thoma.de/write-math/view/?raw_data_id=127944 and martin-thoma.de/write-math/view/?raw_data_id=258352

David Carlisle

9:45 AM

@ArthurReutenauer it can be released under multiple incompatible licences as well, but adding a new licence means getting agreement from current licence holders and also in future safest to get agreement from any contributor to allow it under al the licences or (as FSF does) insist they hand over copyright

@ArthurReutenauer if you have GPL'ed components then the whole can only be used under GPL so even if parts are dual GPL/MIT licenced no one could actually use xetex under an MIT licence so effectively it would be single licenced under GPL.

@moose U+2250 U+0311 ≐̑

moose

10:06 AM

@DavidCarlisle Thank you. Do you think there is a single LaTeX command for this or do I have to create the symbol by combining those two?

David Carlisle

@moose no, to get any chance of reasonable rendering using normal fonts you'd need to define it as two accents over an =, probably

@moose i wouldn't rely on unicode combining characters in math mode (and in the fonts I'm using the inverted breve doesn't appear to combine at all anyway)

egreg

@moose If you use teubner.sty you just need the definition of \coronaeq

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{amsmath}

\DeclareFontFamily{U}{mtr}{}
\DeclareFontShape{U}{mtr}{m}{n}{%
    <-5.5>    gmtr0500     <5.5-6.5> gmtr0600
    <6.5-7.5> gmtr0700     <7.5-8.5> gmtr0800
    <8.5-9.5> gmtr0900     <9.5-11>  gmtr1000
    <11-15>   gmtr1200     <15->     gmtr1728}{}%
\DeclareFontShape{U}{mtr}{m}{it}{<->ssub*mtr/m/n}{}
\DeclareFontShape{U}{mtr}{b}{it}{<->ssub*mtr/m/n}{}
\DeclareFontShape{U}{mtr}{b}{n}{<->ssub*mtr/m/n}{}

\newcommand\metricsfont{\fontencoding{U}\fontfamily{mtr}\upshape}

moose

10:23 AM

@egreg Thank you! I've added it to my symbol database: martin-thoma.de/write-math/symbol/?id=4415

moose

10:38 AM

@egreg By the way, did you already create this before or did you just write it? Is there a tutorial / explanation on tex.SE which explains how this is done?

egreg

@moose The symbol above the equal is called a “corona” in music, so I looked up the comprehensive list for “corona” and found the symbol in teubner.sty; so I went to the package and found the necessary bits.

barbara beeton

12:14 PM

@moose -- have you seen this in print, and if so can you provide a reference? (best, a scan, in context where it's being defined, with biblio info.) if it's in "general use" and i can produce a published example, unicode will accept (though it'll take a while to grind through the mills).

moose

@barbarabeeton No, I have not seen it in print and I don't know for which purpose it is used.

Paulo Cereda

github.com/cereda/arara/issues/66

barbara beeton

@moose -- thanks. i've just tried your "write math", and this isn't being found (yet). but i like the name you've given it, and will keep that in mind if this comes up again.

David Carlisle

@barbarabeeton I couldn't even see @egreg's musical corona in unicode, although perhaps it has a different name? (dot in a half circle)

moose

@barbarabeeton I use a very simple neural network to recognize symbols. I have a list of 374 symbols which can be recognized. The problem is that I need a lot of examples to train the classifier (>50 is the absolute minimum, but rather > 100). I also don't want to put any symbol in there as it might pull the recognition rate of other symbols down.

I've added a text search to help people to find other symbols. I also just added tags (http://write-math.com/tags).

I want to make the search similar to the search on StackExchange ("[arrow] long" should look for all symbols with the "arrow" tag…

barbara beeton

12:25 PM

@DavidCarlisle -- i'll see if i can find it, but think chances of success are low. i think that the musical equivalent in unicode is U+0352, combining fermata. but the arc isn't a full semicircle; the ends of the arc only extend a little way down over the height of the dot.

egreg

@DavidCarlisle It's MUSICAL SYMBOL FERMATA U+1D110

moose

@barbarabeeton In case you're interested in the symbols I know (well, most of them), here is the (almost) complete list: martin-thoma.de/write-math/stats (the page will load quite slow as about 1000 svgs are loaded) - green means they can be recognized from handwriting (with 4% error)

egreg

@DavidCarlisle @barbarabeeton But the symbol in teubner.sty is slightly different and is among the prosodic marks.

David Carlisle

@egreg ah so it is, thanks

barbara beeton

@moose -- it's a nice tool, as far as it goes. i've just been comparing it to detexify. that's perhaps unfair, but i like to identify tools that can benefit authors, and when i find a good one, i add it to the list on the ams web site; write-math definitely looks like a good candidate. i'll get in touch with you by email, if that's okay, with some more questions.

moose

12:33 PM

Sure. My email address is info@martin-thoma.de.

(I also want to write an article on http://tex.blogoverflow.com/ about the tool for quite a while now. I should probably set myself a deadline. This seems to be the only way that could work.)

barbara beeton

@egreg -- what about U+1D110, musical symbol fermata? does teubner.sty identify equivalent unicodes? (if not, i think a suggestion to author would be a good thing.)

@moose -- got your address. if you want to delete that, to avoid spam, can do it now. thanks.

egreg

@barbarabeeton As I said, it's just a similar symbol; maybe the musical symbol originated from that prosodic mark. It is in the CBfonts, but I don't know whether there's something related in Unicode.

@barbarabeeton See Table 8 in the documentation of teubner.

Johannes_B

Wow, 15 hours offline and got a rep of additionally 125. What happened? :-)

barbara beeton

12:54 PM

@egreg -- thanks. i guess i'll just have to ask claudio. (didn't realize that he was the author of teubner, but i'm not surprised.) i have another reason to write to him -- in table 7, the example for \LLadd has a space before the text inside the double angle brackets, and i think it shouldn't be there.

@egreg -- oh. saw this after i'd read your comment about teubner. it's still pretty early here, and i haven't had breakfast yet. would you like to be cc'ed on my question to claudio?

egreg

@barbarabeeton No, I'm not really interested in Greek prosody. :-)

moose

1:43 PM

A short question to the community: I could implement a possibility to register / log in by using your StackExchange account. This means you would be redirected to SE, and SE tells me if you're who you are pretending to be (I don't get your password).

Would you like that more than registering / logging in directly at my site?

Paulo Cereda

@moose The idea of registration is to minimize sample poisoning?

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda so he can spot which tex.sx members are really good at drawing with a laptop trackpad onscreen....

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh that is a good one. :)

moose

I'm not sure what you mean with "sample poisoning". Do you want to know why users should register at all?

If that is the question: Users should register, because I get TONS of spam. I have to delete "answers" from spambots every day. This is much simpler when I have registered users (currently, you don't have to explicitly register. When you visit the site a new "user" is created. I can see that users actions. If the users didn't draw anything, but only give lots of answers it is a relatively good sign of a spam bot. I can delete all of those spam answers with a single click)

From a users perspective: You don't have to register. You can ask for symbol classification without that. Registering is only necessary if you want to (a) see your name with the recordings / answers you entered (b) edit symbol texts (which is now possible).

Paulo Cereda

@moose I suspected of spambots. :) Sample poisoning is when people/bots deliberately start introducing errors in your algorithm through wrong classifications. Google Translator, at some point, started to suffer from this effect (you started to get very wrong translations, much like Monty Python's iconic sketch Hungarian Phrasebook), so Google itself had to interfere and change the algorithm. :)

David Carlisle

1:52 PM

@PauloCereda Character recognition is boring, we should suggest to @moose that he adds animal recognition:

4

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle oooh

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda actually since unicode 8 has duck, we should try that now, or is that sample poisoning:-)

moose

@DavidCarlisle Looking at my training data, I could probably recognize bats (http://www.martin-thoma.de/write-math/symbol/?id=1196) :-)

(no ducks, I'm sorry Paulo)

Paulo Cereda

@moose oh :(

moose

@PauloCereda Currently, my service suffers only from automatic spam bots. It is relatively easy to detect those as they don't draw anything. However, it is much harder to detect humans who accept wrong symbols. The StackExchange OAuth could eventually allow me to see how many points a user has on TeX.SE. I could give privileges according to the StackExchange system (e.g. tag editing at 5000 points or so). I guess this would be a good possibility to prevent human spam.

Paulo Cereda

1:59 PM

@moose Cool. :)

Sean Allred

2:10 PM

@JosephWright @ArthurReutenauer Ahh, but if the most restrictive license (in this case, GPL) says all code it compiles with must also be GPL, wouldn't that overtake MIT's permissive license of 'do what you want'?

moose

Ok, I'll try to get StackExchange OAuth. But first I have to go out. It stopped raining :-)

Have a nice day, Paulo and David!

Paulo Cereda

@moose You too! :)

@Sean: Oh my: github.com/cereda/arara/issues/66 :)

Joseph Wright

@SeanAllred Not if you hold the copyright on all of the code, as you can license how you like (assuming no dependencies, of course)

Sean Allred

@PauloCereda I think we have a classic case of RTFM :)

And in this case, the manual is truly fine.

Paulo Cereda

@SeanAllred I agree that my main page sucks at the moment, but still. :)

Sean Allred

2:22 PM

@JosephWright Naturally :)

Sean Allred

2:38 PM

@PauloCereda I would've had a PR in about a half-hour ago if my internet connection wasn't so slow this morning. I think my cable company forgot how to do its job.

Paulo Cereda

@SeanAllred Oh no!

Sean Allred

@PauloCereda There we go. That was a nightmare.

Paulo Cereda

@SeanAllred Thank you for the pull request. Done. :) <3

Sean Allred

I feel like I'm back in the nineties.

@PauloCereda <3

Paulo Cereda

@SeanAllred Check the commit message. :P

Sean Allred

2:46 PM

@PauloCereda Of which commit?

Paulo Cereda

@SeanAllred github.com/cereda/arara/commit/…

Sean Allred

@PauloCereda XD Whaaat?

Paulo Cereda

Let Slip the Dogs of War Speech - Julius Caesar (Richard Pasco)

►

Sean Allred

I have a feeling that quote has been altered XD

Oooh video

Paulo Cereda

@SeanAllred Nah I am almost 100% sure Shakespeare used ducks.

My new life goal is to write random commit messages. :)

Sean Allred

2:51 PM

@PauloCereda :)

Sean Allred

3:01 PM

I'm distraught

Christian Hupfer

@SeanAllred: Life sucks ;-)

Sean Allred

@ChristianHupfer T_T

Paulo Cereda

@SeanAllred oh no!

@Sean: who stole your tick?

Sean Allred

2

A: Complex musical chords

Does the following come close to what you need? \documentclass{article} \usepackage{fontspec} \usepackage{lilyglyphs} \usepackage{mathtools} \begin{document} C$^{7}\hspace*{-.5ex}\binom{\sharp[scale=.6]7}{\sharp[scale=.6]5}$ \end{document} Of course the actual size of the sharps and the...

@PauloCereda ^^^

I find it funny that my (probably awful) code is in his temporary solution XD

Paulo Cereda

@SeanAllred You can counterattack by asking @David to add an answer to that question. He will surely steal the tick. :P

Sean Allred

3:08 PM

@DavidCarlisle you have been summoned from the deep

fulfill your destiny

Paulo Cereda

@SeanAllred LOLOL

Johannes_B

3:27 PM

@ChristianHupfer Maybe interesting: texwelt.de/wissen/fragen/13007/…

1010011010

4:22 PM

Hi, is there any scheme to hunt down spurious spaces? Or is there any workaround to it? I have a piece of code I can't reduce to an MWE and I have a spurious space somewhere which I can't find. (I simply commented every end of line in the code that ramps up to the spurious space, but it didn't work.) I'm starting to consider that adjustwidth is again at fault...

egreg

5:02 PM

@1010011010 It's black magic, sometimes.

1010011010

@egreg Do you remember answering my question on the main site about the spurious space in relation to using adjustwidth* at page one? Or something along those lines...

David Carlisle

@SeanAllred sorry was programming a 7 segment led from a raspberry pi:-) you called??

1010011010

@egreg It was an \ifoddpage thing as well, if I recall correctly.

David Carlisle

@1010011010 usual way is to post a question that contains the words "spurious space" the wait 10 seconds or so for @egreg to post yet another % at end of line answer.

1010011010

@DavidCarlisle Except I have a % at every line in the document as well as the class file. :-/

Quite an impressive feat of myself, I think.

Don't mean to gloat, but that's a lot of %'s.

David Carlisle

5:06 PM

@1010011010 oh there are other places, random 3rd party packages, the format, ...

1010011010

@DavidCarlisle Default format. changepage package.

David Carlisle

@1010011010 yes but there have been bugs in the format (not my bits, obviously) but...

1010011010

@DavidCarlisle All right, I'll post an MWE somewhere tonight, and unless @egreg suggests I completely overhaul my document or suggests I should stay away from a certain package, I will consider myself to have failed in my task.

David Carlisle

@1010011010 other way is to add \tracingall as close as possible before the point it goes wrong then look for space in the log which will be emitted when it outputs a space in horizontal mode.

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Leslie's fault? ;-)

David Carlisle

5:17 PM

@JosephWright can't remember, but I have a feeling we added some % after an early bug report:-0

@JosephWright passed by your part of the world yesterday (watford gap, at least) went to "national space centre" in Leicester.

Sean Allred

@DavidCarlisle Seven-segment? What're the extra three leads for?

David Carlisle

@SeanAllred well 8 if you count the decimal point

Sean Allred

@DavidCarlisle Hmm now I'm confused. I thought you were talking about the wires that came out of the LED. E.g. an RGB LED has a wire each for red, green, blue, and ground

David Carlisle

Sean Allred

@DavidCarlisle Doh!

David Carlisle

5:22 PM

@SeanAllred one of those^^ (different make actually)

Sean Allred

@DavidCarlisle I gotcha :)

What are you making?

(Also, you can now suggest ideas for my blog through the GitHub issue tracker :))

David Carlisle

@SeanAllred er, that basically, with my 11yr old, figuring out how to wire up the shared anode circuit and write a procedure that would do any number then a loop that does a countdown, enough for one day:-)

Sean Allred

@DavidCarlisle That sounds like an awesome project for a kid :) Expressing an interest in electronics?

David Carlisle

@SeanAllred programming more than electronics probably, but we got this raspberry pi setup that comes with some basic components to plug into a breadboard and a robot arm you can build and drive from the usb interface.

Sean Allred

@DavidCarlisle Oooh

David Carlisle

5:29 PM

@SeanAllred fuze.co.uk

Sean Allred

@DavidCarlisle We have similar things in the U.S. I really, really appreciate all the work they put into making this stuff accessible to kids. It used to be that progress was made by hobbyists who got into it while it was still fairly simple. Things these days are so sophisticated that it's hard to just 'dive in' – programs like this provide a crucially helpful entry point.

@barbarabeeton @Amar This is what I use: vvv

cat `which pdf2png`
#!/usr/bin/env bash

for pdf in ${@}; do
    dir=$(dirname $pdf)
    base=$(basename -s .pdf $pdf)
    pdfcrop "${dir}/${base}.pdf" > /dev/null
    convert -density 600 "${dir}/${base}-crop.pdf" "${HOME}/Desktop/$base.png" > /dev/null
done

In addition to limiting the PDF output to only what I need (\pagenumbering{gobble}, etc.)

barbara beeton

5:45 PM

@SeanAllred -- thanks. i'll squirrel that away for future reference. for the nonce, i'm working on my office system (a shared linux production system maintained in a reliable and well understood manner, with some tools that i'd rather not have to pay for myself). i rather dread the day when i have to become my own sysadmin.

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TeX, LaTeX and Friends

$TeX - LaTeX$ TeX, LaTeX and Friends