Discussion between Jefromi and Joe W

@tsuma534 The help center does say "Questions about computer implementations of board games are fine." and we have other questions about computer versions of board games.

@Jefromi This is a question about a feature that is unique to a specific computer version of the game. Which is unlikely to help anyone but the person asking and they can get better help with the actual services documentation.

@JoeW All computer version questions are about specific versions. This question would help anyone else playing that same version, just like all questions here help anyone else playing the same game. And... people who play that version are likely to know answers too, so this seems a fair place to ask (whether or not the documentation covers it), just as we take questions about board games that are answered by the rules that came with the game.

@Jefromi Board Games Stack Exchange is about board games not about an unrelated feature on a website. For your average visitor to this site will a question about how to block users on a website have anything to do with how they play the game go or questions they have about it? When it comes down to it we are not here to provide customer support for a game on a website. If you really can't find it in the documentation then why not try emailing the customer support for the actual website?

@JoeW We essentially provide customer support for board games all the time, for example by explaining rules and how to play them. We never tell people "why not try emailing customer support" for those questions. And for physical board games, we handle things beyond the actual playing as well (e.g. interpersonal aspects). So if you want computer versions to be off topic, or limited to only things which are directly part of playing the game, that'd be a policy change, so you probably want to post on meta.

10:29 PM

@Jefromi Board games, not websites

@JoeW Yup, this question is about a computer version of a board game, not just a website.

@Jefromi And how would you use the censor feature to block someone in the physical version of the game?

Q: How to play multiplayer Ticket to Ride (iOS/ipad) with friends over the internet?

The question is about the computer version, not the physical version. And that's fine, because computer versions of games are on topic according to the help center.

0

I am trying to play Ticket to Ride for the iOS on the iPad (regular full version, not pocket) with friends over the internet (not local wifi). I tried using Game Center to issue a 'challenge', but it doesn't seem to work. I always end up in a room with random players when I use the 'local' play ...

ticket-to-ride ios

No its not fine

The question is about a feature of the site that is hosting it

and not the actual game

The fact that it's implemented via a website isn't important. The point is, there is, in some form, a computer version of a game.

10:31 PM

just because there is another bad question doesn't make it right

how so?

@JoeW Okay, I understand what you're saying.

Tell me how you use that feature in a physical board game

You don't have to. That's the point: questions that apply only to the computer version are on topic.

we are not tech support for computer games

The help center says so.

If you want to change that, go for it.

10:32 PM

about the game

But you're advocating for a policy change.

not about extra features

The help center doesn't say "only ask about things that exist in the physical game".

And in fact, if that were the rule, then computer versions essentially wouldn't be on topic at all.

I would think it is implied

otherwise we would have a scope that is way to wide

should we cover issues on why you can't run version x of the game on hardware y?

Some things eventually do get pushed over to arqade or superuser, if they're really fundamentally not about the game at all.

10:33 PM

should we get into troubleshooting the game beacuse it is also a board game?

Q: Are questions specifically about the computer version of a game on topic?

3

Our help center says: Questions about computer implementations of board games are fine. and our close reasons include: Questions about computer-based games (except for computer-based versions of board or card games) are off-topic here but can be asked on Arqade. This seems to include ...

discussion on-topic migration

The voting here seems pretty clear.

Linking a self answered question with 6 votes?

and saying 6 votes is clear?

I'm sorry that I was the one who took the time to write that answer.

Six people who aren't me agreed with it, including Pat.

And several people disagreed with the other option proposed, and no one suggested anything different.

and I dont think that covers tech/customer support questions

"The current policy as stated in the help center and close reason does not make an exception"

10:36 PM

from what i read in that answer it is talking more about questions that do apply to both (aka rules bug) but in this case is asked about the computer version

not about something that does not and will never apply to the board game

no, it's clearly not just about things that exist in both physical and computer versions

The title of the question is "Are questions specifically about the computer version of a game on topic?"

You're free to disagree as much as you want, but the community has resolved this issue in the way the community resolves such issues. You can try to start a new discussion on meta and see if attitudes have changed, of course.

so you think we should do tech support for all games?

loaded question, let me try to respond carefully...

I don't think that we should do tech support in general, but I don't agree that everything about a computer version of a game that doesn't apply to the physical version is "tech support" and should be banned.

And that question shows clear community support for that notion.

WTF

The question is a specific case of "how do I use the computer version?" which is pretty much the most basic possible question about computer versions; if we allow them we pretty much have to allow that kind of thing.

10:40 PM

7 up votes and 2 downvotes does not show any kind of community support

unless you think there are only a handfull of users

it shows community indifference at most

Q: What is the meaning of [designer-board-games]?

That's pretty typical meta voting.

I'm sorry we don't have more users to vote.

We can't just stop making decisions because not enough people participate.

10

We have a tag called designer-board-games, and I'm not sure what it means. There is no tag wiki and it is currently tagged on a question about game design, and question about physical vs computer implementations of board games, and a question about Agricola. Best explanation I could find for a d...

discussion tags

That has nine votes on it too (all up though).

18

Q: Do we have any chance of graduating any time soon?

This site has existed for over 5 years. Now that Design-Independent Graduation is implemented, we don't need to wait on a design to have a partial graduation. Our Area51 stats are not perfect, but they're better in almost every category than what Home Improvement, Christianity, Role-playing Games...

discussion

about the most popular question we could possibly have, 11 total votes on the answer.

I get that you disagree with the conclusion that was reached in this case, but you can't just dismiss the whole idea of making decisions based on meta because of that.

we can't stop

but we can't say the community has spoken either

Why not?

The question was there.

Everyone who came and saw it and wanted to vote did.

because 9 people speak for the entire community?

If you want to dismiss that question, you have to basically dismiss everything that's ever happened on meta.

Again, I'm not saying I'm happy that only 9 people voted.

But we can't just dismiss everything from meta because we're unhappy with the level of participation.

10:46 PM

I am saying that the community has not made a clear decision about the issue

you put your thoughts on the question and so did O

I

now it is up to see if others agree with the reopen

The community has made as clear a decision about that issue as it has about any issue on meta.

again 9 people speak for everyone?

the only decision about meta is the community doesn't know/care about it

When you get down to it there are plenty of bad questions on the site that don't get dealt with

Q: What is the meaning of [designer-board-games]?

You make the best decisions you can with the people who participate.

If only 9 people are interested in helping make one decision, they're the people who end up making it.

10

We have a tag called designer-board-games, and I'm not sure what it means. There is no tag wiki and it is currently tagged on a question about game design, and question about physical vs computer implementations of board games, and a question about Agricola. Best explanation I could find for a d...

discussion tags

but you can't say the community has spoken

Do you think I should go back and put the tags back and wait for more people to voice their opinions?

10:52 PM

nope

Okay, fine, the community as a whole hasn't spoken. However, the decision has been made.

actions have been taken, yes

Because that's how the site works: you make decisions with the people who participate on meta. You don't do a site-wide vote for everything.

however since there is no community decision on a question like that we can both disagree on reopening it

you can post that it should be open and I can post that it should stay closed

because there is no community decision

we just need to wait and see if others agree or not

remember 5 people did agree that it should be closed

Sure, but those five people weren't necessarily aware of the policy.

For example, you weren't. You would have made a decision contradicting the policy in the help center.

And the policy established previously on meta.

Again, changing policy is a thing that can happen.

But you have to approach it as a change, not as declaring that the previous policy never actually existed.

10:55 PM

If you are taking part in moderation you should be knowledable

I agree.

Fortunately I was - I was aware of the policy and voted to reopen.

You posted your thoughts on it when you voted to reopen, I posted my thoughts when I reviewd it

that was all that was needed to be done

@murgatroid99 you might be interested in this exchange...

25 mins ago, by Joe W

7 up votes and 2 downvotes does not show any kind of community support

Joe wants to revisit the issue and see if the community really agrees.

I don't think two separate meta questions asking the same thing is a good solution to a perceived lack of community consensus on the one meta question asking that thing

Agreed.

11:09 PM

If we get different (upvoted) answers, it will simply create more confusion, and if we get the same answer upvoted more, I will honestly be astonished

well, not just one question - I dug up the couple other previous questions and went ahead and wrote an answer: meta.boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/1450/…

A: Are computer Go questions on topic?

Oh, great, there are already contradictory answers

7

I agree with not allowing questions on the creation of Go software here. As to using it, that should be fine in the general case. Go is clearly a boardgame, and as such, we allow discussions of computer implementations. Questions should be about the game. Questions specifically about the soft...

@murgatroid99 I think it's mostly consistent?

> Questions should be about the game. Questions specifically about the software, such as "How can I get GnuGo to run on my Windows 95 machine?" might be better off over at gaming.stackexchange.com

And Pat did endorse my answer on the newer question, so fwiw he'd probably be willing to favor it in case of any inconsitencies.

11:11 PM

That's pretty much the opposite

I think "specifically about the software" is poor word choice, really.

His example indicates it's about the software itself, not about actually using it.

i.e. he also says "about the game" is fine

Fortunately, that answer is older than anything else here, so it's easy to argue that it's been superseded

I think the issue here is that a question about how do I block other users to prevent matches with them does not serve a good purpose on this site

that would be better on arcade or asking the makers of the game itself

@JoeW But that's not an off topic reason

There is overlap between site topics, and that's OK

And whether you should ask the makers is much more debatable.

Maybe the issue is that you haven't found the button for the menu that has the thing you want.

11:15 PM

So I can ask any support question about a computer game if they have a physical board/card game version?

What is a "support question"?

That is a very wide category

@JoeW Which is why lumping it all together is counterproductive

which is why I asked the question concerning tech/customer support questions

to try and get a bigger response then the general computer games question

You asked a question asking to make a decision about what you refer to about support questions.

Which is perhaps not productive, if it's a broad, vague category.

For example, is it a support question if it's an obscure rules question, where it's not clear to the OP if the official rules cover it?

We have tons of questions like that, and we don't tend to close them, because they're often answerable - maybe the OP overlooked something or there are errata somewhere.

11:18 PM

obscure rules question?

you mean something that applies to all versions of the game?

not just a very specific version of a computer game?

Well, mostly for those there isn't a computer version so it trivially applies to all versions.

@JoeW you keep getting hung up on this distinction between questions valid for all "versions" of a game, and questions that only apply to the software "version", and that's not a distinction that the rules actually make

Yes, because I think a question that only can ever apply to a computer version should be off topic

how do I use feature X of software isn't what I consider on topic

@JoeW fortunately this issue has already been addressed, by the previous question. (Yes, I know, you're saying you don't think the votes are conclusive enough on it.)

@JoeW "what I consider on topic" isn't a decision you have to make, because we have established policies

I don't think 9 people speak for the community, and I don't think the answer fully adresses all the issues

11:22 PM

@JoeW What if someone wants help operating the Credit Card machine in the Monopoly Electronic Banking variant? Should that be off topic, because it's a "support question" that only applies to one variant of the game?

and again 5 other people did consider the question off topic and voted to close it

For example, if you thought that miniature wargames should be off topic because they don't use boards or cards, you would be wrong, because the help center says they're on topic.

that would be a part of a physcial game

Same goes here - that policy has been there for the entire history of the site, and it's been brought up on meta at least four times, always with the community favoring keeping it that way.

We are not meant to stay static and we can change over time

11:25 PM

@JoeW So it can be any minor detail, applying to only one version, and it can be something that's only tangentially connected to actually playing the game, but it's okay as long as it's a physical game. Once it's a computer version you want it to be much more widely applicable?

@JoeW If you think we should change, make a question suggesting that we change the policy.

All this over one comment saying I thought something was off topic

and leaving it for voters on that question to decide

@JoeW leaving it solely to the voters would be disrespecting the decisions that have been made in the past, and the guidance given in the help center.

what decisions?

The ones which you refuse to acknowledge as decisions.

11:27 PM

I refuse to acknowldge as a community decision because they have a handfull of votes

And again, by that argument, pretty much everything that's ever been done on meta doesn't count.

even the result of your question today wouldn't count.

(unless by some miracle you get far more votes than usual for meta)

it doesn't count as a community decision

but they can be considered guidelines

yes and I do understand that

my question will just be more input

I edited my question to make a sugestion to make questions about software use or troubleshooting off topic

Don't edit your question to make it a different question

I wrote an in-depth answer already...

that didn't really answer the question

11:32 PM

yes, it did

I addressed all your examples, and gave the broad "yes it's on topic", and the history of the site's discussion on the topic.

okay, but you didn't really add anything, sure, I can tweak to address that as well

I am trying to just delete that question and start over

You probably can't since it has an upvoted answer.

hence trying

And I've passed the window for retracting an upvote

If the accept-dup-closure feature exists on meta too though you can just do that.

11:35 PM

it does, but I don't see it as a dupe so would rather delete and restart over since you are talking about me changing my question

you didn't actually change it much, so I'm fine with it like this still too

you're still just asking if okay-by-policy things are okay

@Jefromi He's now also suggesting that policy should be different. That's the change I was referring to

ah, okay

I mean... my answer would be pretty much the same still?

I think the policy doesn't need to change, and the previous support for the current policy and the lack of problems caused by it is pretty good evidence.

can I see deleted questions on meta...

if you have the rep and the link

(I can delete and let you post a new one as long as I'm not going to lose this answer, since I'd want a lot of it for a new one)

oh right boardgames is beta I can do everything

11:39 PM

not sure I will get a new question posted tonight

If you do write a new one, could you try to avoid the broad "tech/customer support" thing?

if anything the policy should be more clear

(my answer for posterity: meta.boardgames.stackexchange.com/a/1451/409)

because I always was under the impression that questions like that where off topic

I think the policy was pretty clear.

It's just not been well-known, since there aren't a lot of computer version questions.

11:40 PM

So did I

well, you hadn't read that previous meta question

I had read that in the past

but I did not think it covered the same scope of questions that you did

ah. figured you hadn't since you only downvoted today

right right, you thought it only covered questions that applied to the physical version too

I had read it in the past but never put a vote on it

never mind

11:42 PM

at the time the way I was reading the answer I didn'

didn't have an opinion either way

and when it comes to questions about the mechanics of the game I still dont'

Yeah, the question was about things specifically about the computer version, so it was definitely meant to apply in general to things like "how do I play/use the computer version?" not just the mechanics that are shared with the physical version.

question is gone, I will link the new one in here when it is done

cool

post was done out of frustration and should have been better to begin wiht

by the way if you want to refer to them, the old questions are all tagged now: meta.boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/…

11:47 PM

fyi i just cleaned up my comments in the orignal question that started this