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9:00 PM
@BrianMScott but that limits you to about 57.6Kbps, right?
 
Usually a little under 50. Currently 48.0 -- I just checked.
 
What is the theorem for switching the integration order called?
 
@BrianMScott I heard good, small liberal arts colleges are hard to find.
 
@MattN this doesn't seem to be what you write at all.
 
@BrianMScott Ouch! and I thought I was doing bad at 800K.
 
9:01 PM
@Skullpatrol Not hard to find so much as hard to get into.
 
@tb I wrote it in a clumsy way.
The rest is ok?
 
@N3buchadnezzar Fubini?
 
@MattN The kernel of the homomorphism $x \mapsto e^{ix}$ is $2\pi \mathbb{Z}$. Now the kernel of the homomorphism $x \mapsto \varphi(e^{i x})$ is a closed subgroup of $\mathbb{R}$ and it contains $2\pi \mathbb{Z}$. Moreover $x \mapsto \varphi(e^{ix})$ is of the form $x \mapsto e^{\lambda i x}$ for some $\lambda \in \mathbb{R}$ because you know what the homomorphisms $\mathbb{R} \to S^1$ are. What possibilities for $\lambda$ do you have?
 
A few off the top of my head: Pomona, Oberlin, Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore.
 
Hi Brian, how are you feeling?
 
9:02 PM
Whooooh! Flamewar in the gameroom. Puts marshmallows on the stick
 
That's exactly what you're trying to do in your proof.
 
@AsafKaragila Honestly? Pretty shitty.
 
Oh, still feverish?
 
@BrianMScott Sorry =(
 
@BrianMScott With the popularity of the internet on the rise do you think independent self-study will eventually take over?
 
9:05 PM
Still hungover from that cold, eh?
 
@tb I don't see where mine goes wrong and why it has to be so complicated.
 
@tb For the third day. And I’m being forced to waste summer weather that’s unaccountably appeared in March!
 
@MattN There's nothing complicated about this! Your proof goes wrong because you claim something that you don't justify in the middle of it (just before "We claim"). I'm providing the reason for it.
 
@tb It's ok. I'll read this and understand it.
 
@BrianMScott Few years ago we had like 42 C in February. It was awesome.
 
9:07 PM
@Skullpatrol Probably not, though it may well increase enormously: a good teacher is hard to replace.
 
@tb But I'm proving that claim in what follows.
 
@KannappanSampath Have you heard of this theorem in group theory? For a group $G=\{g_1,\ldots,g_n\}$ of order $n<\infty,$ the set $\{g_{\pi(1)}\cdots g_{\pi(n)}\,|\,\pi\in S_n\}$ is a full coset of $G'$ in $G.$
 
@MattN No you don't justify why $\varphi(z) = z^r$ for all $z$. You only argue if $\varphi$ has this form then $r \in \mathbb{Z}$.
 
@ymar No, I have not come across this. Let me parse that first...
 
@AsafKaragila We’ve had several days above 25, which is record-setting weather here. Not the individual highs, perhaps, but the long string of them.
 
9:09 PM
$G'$, I assume is the commutator subgroup $[G,G]$.
 
@KannappanSampath Yes.
 
@BrianMScott Well, in Israel we're already in mid-spring as it is. Soon it will be summer.
 
@BrianMScott I'm not discounting the fact that a good teacher is hard to replace, but self-study does have its own advantages, no? and together with the internet could be interesting....
 
@tb I think I argue that it has to have the form $z \mapsto z^r$ for all $z$ before the claim and after the claim I argue why $r$ has to be an integer.
 
@AsafKaragila Did I tell you about all the snow we have here?
 
9:11 PM
@AsafKaragila I’d not be incredibly surprised to get more snow this spring.
 
What is meant by full coset? I cannot parse it in a reasonable way!
 
@KannappanSampath I meant it is equal to some coset.
 
@BrianMScott I would be surprised to see snow in here at any point of the year.
I think that the last recorded snow in Beer-Sheva was in the 1950's.
 
@tb I'll rewrite it and repost it.
 
@AsafKaragila Perhaps it would start snowing when someone beats Arturos rep count for a quarter.
(snowing in hell and all that)
 
9:13 PM
@MattN No, there's no argument: you said that $z$ depends on $r$ and $x$. Where does the $r$ come from? The way you actually wrote it, $r$ depends on $z$ and $x$, why doesn't it depend on $z$?
 
And why do you have to consider homos $\mathbb{R} \to S^1$? Why can't I have a proof with only homos $S^1 \to S^1$?
 
So, you're trying to say that for some $g' \in G'$, we have that $g'G'=\{g_{\pi(i)}, \cdots, g_{\pi(n)}\}$ @ymar
 
@MattN You implicitly do that, too, by writing $e^{ix}$.
 
@KannappanSampath Um, no. For some $g\in G$ we have $gG'=\{g_{\pi(1)}\cdots g_{\pi(n)}\,|\,\pi\in S_n\}.$ Note that there are no commas there. It's a set of products. It's the set of all possible products of all elements in the group.
 
9:20 PM
@N3buchadnezzar I can’t type that fast.
 
Okay, I need to head out for a few hours. See you all later
 
See you later and thank you!
 
@BrianMScott Have you seen any of Prof. Gilbert Strang work for example?
 
@Skullpatrol Oh, I’m not knocking self-study: I did a great deal of it as a kid, and I’ve done a lot since. And it is easier now, I think.
 
@BrianMScott Quality over quantity =)
I am studying to become a teacher
 
9:21 PM
@Skullpatrol I recognize the name, I believe from a linear algebra text, but not well enough to have any real opinion.
 
he's the guy from the MIT open courseware stuff, right?
 
Imaginary opinions and real opinions
 
@N3buchadnezzar I knew by the time I was ten that I wanted to go into mathematics and teach it, probably at the college level.
 
@BrianMScott And so you did
 
@BrianMScott Wow.
 
9:23 PM
I see. I parsed it in an entirely wrong fashion!
@ymar Surprising!
 
@BrianMScott TEN years old!!!
 
@MattN Hey, lots of kids know at that age: the difference is that they change their minds!
 
: D
 
@Skullpatrol At the latest.
 
@KannappanSampath Nice, right? I don't know the proof though. I can't access the referenced paper.
 
9:24 PM
Let's think of an approach now. Why not!
 
True actually. I wanted to be a vet when I was 10 (+/- 2 years). Then I realised that that would be boring.
 
@BrianMScott How about the earliest?
 
When I was 6 or so I wanted to make games. : )
 
@KannappanSampath We can, sure.
 
Making (video) games is quite fun : )
 
9:25 PM
@Skullpatrol I really don’t know, though I gather that at the age of not quite two one of my favorite toys was a sliderule.
 
@ymar you might want to look at S3 first, and see how that works
 
@BrianMScott Slide what? (just joking ;-)
 
@BrianMScott What field did you study ?
 
Going to sleep. If you see the teddy in the next few hours tell him to go to sleep too : )
 
@MattN My youngest brother wanted to be a vet. He became one and practised for a few years before going back to get a PhD in animal pathology; he now teaches at Michigan State.
 
9:27 PM
(few = 10 hours)
 
G`Natt matt =)
 
@MattN Sleep well,will do.
 
@Skullpatrol Prehistoric computer. :-)
 
@DavidWheeler Do you mean a group with three elements? But there's only one and it's abelian, so it should trivialize in this case... (Although I'm not sure why. Let me think.)
 
Good night @MattN.
 
9:28 PM
@N3buchadnezzar Point-set and set-theoretic topology.
 
'Ello.
 
scratches head
 
Only result that strikes now: $G/G'$ is an abelian quotient and is the maximal such! But it is useless here! @ymar
 
That sounds complicated.
 
@Brian: Nice answer on that ordinals question. I was hoping you'd see it.
 
9:29 PM
@ymar I had no such suggestion. It was David! : D
 
Um, I miss @tb when I say 'ello. =\
 
@KannappanSampath Yeah, I know. I don't know who I'm writing to... :/
 
@Gigili I missed you.
 
@AsafKaragila Thanks. (My favorite kind of question!)
 
@Skullpatrol Eh why thank you.
 
9:30 PM
no, i mean use the permutations in S6 on S3
 
my nett is so slow, it can not even render chat propperly
gah
 
Oh, OK. When $G$ is abelian it's indeed trivial. :)
 
I think, there will be two cases about odd order and even order and all of that, no??
 
@DavidWheeler Why is this case special?
 
do anyone have access here ?
 
9:32 PM
@KannappanSampath Could you elaborate?
 
@N3buchadnezzar Me, yes. : )
 
@KannappanSampath Mind sending me the 4 pages or ? I am quite interested in reading it.
 
@BrianMScott What is your area of specialty in Mathematics, if you don't mind me asking?
 
@N3buchadnezzar Why not? I can send it you, definitely.
 
@KannappanSampath Thanks
 
9:34 PM
@Skullpatrol Point-set and set-theoretic topology.
 
A/S/L everybody !!!!!!!!
(just kidding...)
 
Oh, a father, a husband, a musician ...
 
I think Rajesh is not around. So, you're not offending anybody! : )
 
We're all serious here, no jokes.
 
And, a well-written comment there! @TheChaz
 
9:35 PM
gah!
So slow!
 
@Gigili I’d star that, except that my head would then explode.
 
@Gigili I think you being asked (more indirectly) "A/S/L" was the funniest thing I'd seen in here in a while
 
@ymar Let me think why I needed odd and even.... Too distracted!
 
@KannappanSampath ; )
 
@BrianMScott Oh noes, I cannot see that. Don't star my message, I can live with it.
@TheChaz That was exactly so :D
 
9:38 PM
Do anyone know how to block users from chat ?
 
Not really funny, but still ...
 
It was exciting to think that I might be witnessing the beginnings of an MSE relationship...
(oops. Ignore the above then)
 
(done)
 
@N3buchadnezzar Click the user. Click ignore. Is that enough?
 
@TheChaz Phew no more ASL then, thanks!
 
9:39 PM
As it turns out, there is a user in this room that I am ignoring.
Their avatar will appear about 1/4 size
 
@N3buchadnezzar How will I transfer the file? mediafire good enough, no?
 
tinyupload is also good, or 2shared. But use whatever you want =)
 
@TheChaz @anon?
 
IGNORE ALL THE USERS IN CHAT
Converse with myself!
 
Half of his avatar is white ...
 
9:42 PM
@KannappanSampath so you're distributing springerlink documents? Beware I might ask a favor of you sometime. :)
 
Well the effect of identity permutation depends on the parity of the order, I guess.
 
@Gigili Nope!
 
@ymar Sure, you may.
 
@TheChaz Good enough that it isn't me. I'm going to play then for a bit.
 
"play..." - ???
 
9:45 PM
@KannappanSampath I don't get this. What's the effect of the identity permutation?
 
"A ball is dropped and travels a total distance of 7.25 meters, each time it reaches 25% of it`s initial height. How many times does the ball bounce?"
I hate questions like that! Gah! Rages
@KannappanSampath Cheers!
 
@KannappanSampath Thanks.
 
Bah, I have been speaking crap!
Right, no parity, no damn!
 
Right, no party, damn!
 
@N3buchadnezzar The "ideal ball" never stops bouncing.
 
9:48 PM
@KannappanSampath I don't know, I just don't see it.
 
Right, no damn party.
 
:-D
 
In the abelian case, the coset we get coincides with what? Any permutation will always take it to the identity, right?
That is the cosets are singletons, and we get the identity coset, right?
 
@KannappanSampath The abelian case is trivial: the commutator subgroup is trivial, so the cosets are just singletons. But when a group is abelian the product of all elements of the group is the same regardless of their order in the product. So indeed, the set in question is a singleton.
 
I mean: I wanted to say that and more, like: the theorem tells it coincides with a coset, which we claim is the identity coset.
 
9:55 PM
@N3buchadnezzar How many times do you think the "ball" bounces?
 
@KannappanSampath Not for $C_2$ I think...
 
Why? $C_2$ is abelian too?
 
@Skullpatrol It clearly deppends on the initial height
 
@KannappanSampath I mean the cyclic group with two elements. Is this not the right symbol? I don't know much about group theory... blushes
 
@N3buchadnezzar Will it ever stop bouncing?
 
9:57 PM
@ymar Nah, you're right. I mean, even there we get the identity coset, right?
 
@Skullpatrol The point is that after the ball has reached the given length, we stop the ball by force.
 
@KannappanSampath I think not... Let's write the group additively: $\{0,1\}$ Then the sum of all elements is $1$, not $0$.
But in a cyclic group of order $\neq 2,$ I think your statement holds.
 
Bummer! Right! sigh
 
No wait.
$2 \nmid |G|$
 
Not in all cyclic groups! : )
 
10:01 PM
For cyclic groups of odd order I mean.
 
But, well, the abelian case is trivial. So, no worry!
 
That's right.
 
Can we prove by contradiction?
 
I've noticed that you like proving stuff by contradiction. :)
We can try!
 
@ymar : )
@ymar Sure. So, suppose that the collection of all such products is not a coset.
Then, given any coset, there is one element in the coset not in the product collection or vice-versa.
 
10:07 PM
That is true.
 
In particular, I think, it may be nice to work with identity coset.
 
That is $G'$ itself.
 
Yes. There is one element of $G'$ not in the product collection, hence forth denoted by $\prod$ or vice-versa.
 
Yes.
 
EISBÄR.
 
10:12 PM
Hmph, we cannot show $G'=\prod$. :/
 
@KannappanSampath No that's a much stronger statement than in the theorem. And actually, false :)
As we saw in $\mathbb Z_2$
 
So, this approach fails, here.
 
Everything.
 
For example please?
 
10:16 PM
@KannappanSampath :(
Shall we give ourselves some time to think about it? I have to go now. If you come up with an idea, don't forget to let me know!
 
@ymar Sure, I'll. Bye for now. Take care.
 
Goodbye!
 
@KannappanSampath 'thanks for the document! It was very interesting to read.
 
@N3buchadnezzar Finished reading it?!!
Good!
 
@KannappanSampath Quite some time ago =)
800 wpm ftw
 
10:22 PM
That's very low. Keep practicing.
 
@JonasTeuwen Indeed, I did practice got up to a bit over thousand. Did not really see the point, and reading math is totally different than books.
 
Oh, in math, yes.
 
I meant 800 for books, not for math, Although I can read it that fast, but not comprehend it ÅÅ
øø
 
I never liked reading...
or typing.
 
I never really liked breathing, or making my heart pump either.
 
10:28 PM
What do these symbols mean? ÅÅ

øø
 
æøå Norwegian letters.
My name contains some of them.
 
@N3buchadnezzar How many letters are in the Norwegian alphabet?
 
Now for a tougher question, how many are in the Icelandic alphabet? And which one that isn’t was deleted only in 1974?
 
10:38 PM
@BrianMScott 32
 
Do you know which was removed, though it’s still occasionally used?
 
@BrianMScott Oh, and I zee what letter is missing!
 
Indeed. :-)
Though I’d say zed.
 
10:39 PM
Although we never use Z either
or X
or W
or Q
 
Wallonsk? Xylograf?
And some old surname spellings with Qu instead of Kv.
 
@N3buchadnezzar What letter do you use most often for a variable, if you don't use "x"?
 
Never heard about the first one, and the second one is one of three words I know starting with X in norwegian. And technically it is a loan word too.
 
What are the other two?
 
@Skullpatrol We tend to use "hèlôcaptour" instead of "x"
 
10:44 PM
 
@BrianMScott x-akse (x-axis) and xenon lys (xenon lights) although we pronounce xenon as senon.
 
My old McKay’s adds xantin (English xanthin), another obvious borrowing from Greek.
 
@DavidWheeler: Just saw that, thank you.
 
@BrianMScott My norwegian dictionary of about 60k words, have half a page of words starting with z-
Never heard about that one either, Brian.
 
My Norw/Engl dictionary has just zeppeliner, Zevs, zodikallys, zoolog and some related words, zulu, zulukaffer, Zululandet, and, so help me, Zürich.
 
10:46 PM
Replace z with x.
 
@N3buchadnezzar What does a "hèlôcaptour" look like?
 
@N3buchadnezzar It’s a technical term, not common in English either.
 
Ah, okay.
@Skullpatrol Thats what a "hèlôcaptour" looks like
 
I’ve forgotten, if you ever said; where are you?
 
10:49 PM
Me ?
 
Norway of course, studying at NTNU in trondheim.
 
Norway I remembered; I just couldn’t recall where in Norway.
That’s where my youngest sister studied for a year or so many years ago.
 
@N3buchadnezzar That must make writing variable expressions very difficult: using hèlôcaptours instead of "x".
 
So far as I know, I still have relatives in Agdenes and Ørland, and I think in Trondheim.
 
10:56 PM
Quiz time: What is the oldest currently spoken language in the world?
 
That’s a meaningless question, I’m afraid.
 
Not according to Wiki
 
Then in this case WP is wrong.
 
It wouldn't be the fist time WP is wrong.
 
Body language
hi?
 
10:59 PM
spoken?
 
@Skullpatrol You have obviously not heard my body language
 
What is true is that some modern languages are more conservative than others in ways that are apparent even on casual acquaintance; Icelandic and Lithuanian are the classic examples.
But both of these have actually changed considerably even over the last few hundred years, if not in such obvious ways as many other languages.
 
Cheuffeur
Hebrew is still spoken in some small circles today
 
I've added a matrix working of my previous diagram here.
 
11:05 PM
@Skullpatrol Ah! that explains the "Alt Gr" of which Henning spoke of a while ago.
 
What does "Ο Worlfram βγάζει ότι νάναι .." mean?
 
@robjohn Yes, it does.
 
@N3buchadnezzar Oh, Stephen, stop speaking Greek! :-D
 
@robjohn huh? I am trying to translate it, but it is all Greek to me!
=D
 
Part is in Greek and part in something else
 
11:09 PM
It should be entirely in greek
 
@N3buchadnezzar So students in Norway don't use "x" to represent a variable?
 
@Skullpatrol Of course they do you silly !
You really think we would use helicopters as variables?
 
@N3buchadnezzar Why not you can use whatever you want ;-)
 
@N3buchadnezzar you could use a helicopter to represent a propeller subset :-)
 
One of our graduate assistants used to use potato, though only in speaking. Mind you, his handwriting was so bad that some of his letters might as well have been potatoes.
 
11:14 PM
 
There are two x's after the d
 
The top main propeller and the back propeller.
dX x
 
Never thought about that
 
That's Ok, the concept of a variable is one of the most controversial topics in elementary school teaching of math.
 
11:24 PM
I like this chat
It sometimes makes me chuckle, in a very british and mature way.
 
@BrianMScott What did you think of that wiki article about Tamil?
 
I am in the possession of a new iPad!
Shop opened at 0.01 8-).
 
Oh, so that is what you decided on.
As opposed to a suit or whiskey.
 
No, I will buy those too.
 
@Skullpatrol I’ve not really looked closely at it: it wants more concentration than I have right now. I don’t dispute that it has a long literary history, but so does (for example) French: it’s just that we call the 2000-year-old state of that language Latin.
 
11:34 PM
@JonasTeuwen Why iPad?
 
Not sure.
I didn't even check it out.
Let's see...
 
Jonas Pa i d too much
 
Two friends of mine from the uni bought a Lenovo tablet, which is pretty awesome.
I am really tired of the Apple way of doing things. If I could have waited an extra year before switching cellphones I would probably have bought the Galaxy S2 android.
 
@AsafKaragila I dont suppose ... you have an iPhone do you ?
 
Yeah, I have iPhone 4.
 
11:38 PM
SORCERY
 
There are two reasons I have it:
 
Kill it
 
1. It was the only feasible option at time of buying.
 
@BrianMScott I agree there is a LOT of room for dispute in the claim: "Tamil is one of the longest surviving classical languages in the world."
 
2. I got a deal where it literally costs me nothing.
 
11:38 PM
It is quite late here, and excuse me for sounding silly
But it sounds as you bought a iPhone when you were drunk from another drunk.
 
You always sound silly. What's your excuse for other times?
 
"It was the only feasible option at the time and it was cheap."
@AsafKaragila Drugs
 
@N3buchadnezzar No, Apple were genius and signed each of the cellular companies in Israel a contract to sell an incredible amount of iPhones within a year. They did that with every company and each company thought they had an exclusive contract.
So they got to a point they were literally giving iPhones away just so they could fulfill the contract, because it would have cost them more otherwise.
 
Oh, I see!
hopes Asaf does not read the log
 
@N3buchadnezzar Which part of the log?
 
11:43 PM
@AsafKaragila The silly parts.
 
@N3buchadnezzar Oh.
 
My attempts at humor don't always die a horrible death, but when they do...
(in the comments)
 
You know. The Chaz, I just ran into a bumped thread in which you said that my comment was funny but you still plan on running for "funniest comment of the year 2011".
I was wondering if I won after all.
 
Link?
 
11:51 PM
Hah. I don't know if either of those comments represents our best work from last year. I might have to go searching tonight to find my best. You'll do the same?
:D
 
Of course not.
I am going to sleep now.
 
"MSE 2011 Funniest User"!
 
Also, no. This is far from my funniest comment throughout the year.
 
Nonetheless, I'll see what I can find..
 
MSE 2011 funniest Chatter?
 
11:53 PM
Use data.SE
 
@AsafKaragila I must include an image here, Just to let you note in advance asaf. It is important
 
@AsafKaragila Sheesh!
 
@N3buchadnezzar You're absolutely correct: that was important!
 
11:57 PM
@JonasTeuwen Hi
 
Especially the green hair.
 

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