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5:09 PM
@Huy You know, I can answer questions too. :P Yes: there's a covering map homomorphism $S^3 \to SO(3)$, and covering maps induce an isomorphism on the Lie algebra.
 
sorry to ask again but... is math.stackexchange.com/questions/1370157/… clear and understandable?
 
5:24 PM
@Chris'ssistheartist Are those what you were talking about before you left last night?
 
Huy
@MikeMiller: But you're always asleep.
 
@robjohn No, this is different stuff.
 
Fair enough.
 
Huy
@MikeMiller: Also you often use tools I don't know how to use yet. :((
 
Do you know what covering maps are?
If not, I guess the answer is just "yes, you can write down an isomorphism between the two". But actually the reason you can is that they have the same universal cover: simply connected Lie groups are determined up to isomorphism by their Lie algebra, and the Lie algebra is preserved under passing to the universal cover. Because $S^3$ (as a group!) is the universal cover of $SO(3)$, they have the same Lie algebra.
 
Huy
5:32 PM
@MikeMiller: I know the word, and also the word of a universal cover but am not very familiar with them, so I have to check.
 
If one differentiates the map $SU(2)$ to $SO(3)$ where one sends a unit quaternion $q$ to the map span(i,j,k) to span(i,j,k) given by conjugating by $q$, you can see explicitly it is an isomorphism of Lie algebras. This is done somewhere on this site.
And I guess I suggested to an undergraduate that he should do it in his introductory talk on Lie groups.
 
@PVAL One version of the Malcev-Iwasawa theorem says that any Lie group $G$ has a maximal compact subgroup $K$, and $G$ is diffeomorphic to $K \times \mathbb R^n$. An immediate corollary is that $G$ cannot possibly be an exotic $\mathbb R^4$. Is there a more elementary way of proving this? (For instance, is the exponential map a diffeomorphism?)
 
Huy
@MikeMiller: In some lecture notes I found online, there's a rather short proof that $RP^n$ is orientable iff $n$ is odd. The proof that it is not orientable when $n$ is even goes as follows: Let $\pi: S^n \to RP^n, p \mapsto [p]$. Let $r: S^n \to S^n$ be reflection through the origin. Then, $\pi \circ r = \pi$. If $RP^n$ is orientable, then we may assume that $\pi$ preserves orientation (why?). From this follows that $r$ preserves orientation as well.
They claim that this is only the case when $n$ is odd. Shouldn't this be the other way around, since $(-1)^n = 1$ iff $n$ is even?
 
@Huy: If $M$ is an oriented manifold and $G$ is a discrete group of diffeomorphisms of $M$ (acting freely), $M/G$ is oriented iff $G$ acts by orientation-preserving diffeomorphisms. The formula for the degree of the antipodal map is $(-1)^{n+1}$, not $(-1)^n$. (It's the composition of $n+1$ reflections.)
In any case if you have a covering map $\pi: M \to N$ between oriented manifolds, it either preserves or reverses the orientation. If it reverses the orientation, well, just change one of the orientations involved.
 
Huy
5:48 PM
Oh I think I was actually mistakenly taking $n$ instead of $n+1$ because I forgot $S^n \subset R^{n+1}$.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:35 PM
Finally, all details worked out for subset compression and decompression.
 
@MikeMiller Probably a very stupid question : $S^1 \to M$ be an embedding into a, say, 3-manifold $M$. If this thing is homotopic to a point, is it necessarily isotopic to it?
Probably not true.
 
This question has an open bounty worth +500 reputation from Cleo ending in 7 days.

One or more of the answers is exemplary and worthy of an additional bounty.

Bravo @VladimirReshetnikov! This is a bounty for your answer.
It seems my question was pretty appealing to the famous integrators ... :-)
 
Isotopic to a point doesn't make sense. Do you mean does it have to bound an embedded disc, @Balarka?
Take $M=S^3$.
 
Yeah, sorry, that's what I meant.
 
Bounding a disc in $S^3$ is the same as being the unknot.
 
7:44 PM
oh.
hmm.
 
If the dinension of the codomain is at least 5 any embedded null-homotopic circle bounds a disc by transversality theory. If the coodomain is $S^4$ it bounds a disc by Whitney's strong embedding theorem. For a general 4-manifold it's not obvious to me it has to bound. You'd want to isotope it into a single coordinate patch.
 
8:06 PM
@Mike Miller I think R^4 (as a topological space) admits a unique topological group structure (I'm not sure how to do this) up to isomorphism. Any continuous isomorphism of Lie groups is smooth so that should be enough.
 
@PVAL: That can't be true. Already for $\mathbb R^3$ we have plenty of interesting structures, like the Heisenberg group (= Nil) and Sol.
Those are both nonabelian.
 
@Mike Miller Ya I dont know how to do it then.
 
Darn
@PVAL Do you care about contact geometry?
 
@Mike Miller A nullhomotopic circle in a smooth 4-manifold (without boundary) necessairly bounds a framed immersed disk $D$ with isolated self-intersections. There is an annulus $A$ diffeomorphic to $\Bbb R \times S^1$ which intersects such a framed disk in exactly the circle. There is a ribbon move which removes a self intersection of $D$ and adds in two cancelling intersection points. If one does this procedure to each intersection point, you get a framed embedded disk.
 
@MikeMiller It seems like one could make my question a bit more complicated by making some assumption on the disk by which one nullhomotopes the embedded circle. I dunno.
 
8:15 PM
This also works even if there isn't a smooth structure
 
It seems there exists a true version.
@MikeMiller ah, interesting.
 
I need to choose faculty and I don't know what to choose between: Faculty of Mathematics and Accounting
What do you recommend?
 
@PVAL: Is this basically just the same argument Whitney gives for $\mathbb R^4$, or do you have to make serious modifications? I never looked carefully at the proof of the strong embedding theorem.
 
I'm afraid to not make a mistake
 
No. Whitney doesnt make an argument for R^4 because surfaces were already classified. He wonders if his argument works in R^4 in his paper(it doesnt).
 
8:17 PM
@Lucas lollll, this sounds like my case, I chose accounting.
 
OK.
 
The ribbon move is exploiting that the boundary of the circle isnt in the boundary of the 4-manifold by pushing intersections off an arc between the boundary of the disk and the intersection point. There is a better description than I can give in Freedman-Quinn. This doesn't work if the circle is in the boundary by the existence of knots that are not slice.
 
right
 
@Lucas choose money
 
@Agawa001 okay
 
8:26 PM
@PVAL When doing strong Whitney in higher dimensions, you start with a map and modify it to become an embedding. Is the modification usually not homotopic to the original?
 
@Lucas and keep ur loyalty for maths :)
 
They say it's better to do what you love, I love math, but my country don't love Math
 
@Lucas people dont love maths, and people is money
 
I am trying to read Cieliebak Eliashberg (mathematik.uni-muenchen.de/~kai/research/stein.pdf), so I am trying to care about contact geometry!
 
@Agawa001 You've right...
 
8:28 PM
and like i said, keep your loyalty for maths
 
Ah, more than Eliashberg is writing it, so maybe it's readable?
 
@Mike Miller I'm not sure what you are asking. Strong Whitney usually implies maps to R^n, so all maps are homotopic. If you start with an immersion though, the map may generally not be homotopic through immersions to an embedding (i.e. if there is an odd number of self-intersections they cant appear in Whitney disks because they cant be paired up. In that case you have to add cusps.
 
I ask because there's a paper yesterday on the arXiv that proves an h-principle for Engel structures, which are closely related to contact structures, so maybe you'd care. I haven't read it yet but intend to skim it today.
@PVAL: Very poorly phrased on my part. I actually care about the case where you have boundary and your immersion is an embedding near the boundary. Then I want to know if the modified map is homotopic to the original held constant near the boundary.
 
Ack! The wireless card in my computer shut down and wouldn't let me turn it back on. I had to pull the battery for 10 minutes, then it came back on.
 
i'm probably free associating in the wrong way, but when i see symplectic manifolds + lagrangian submanifolds my brain goes to quantization of classical mechanics
which would be amusing if there was a link, since then a cute name for Bohr-Sommerfeld quantization would be the $\hbar$-principle :P
 
8:42 PM
In a simply-connected manifold $M^{2n}, n \geq 3$ , for an immersion with self-intersections there is circle between any two self-intersection points of opposite sign on the image which bounds a whitney disk. One can then resolve this disk in the obvious way in a neighborhood of this disk. This does not change the regular homotopy class of the immersion. If there aren't the correct number of self-intersection points of each sign one has to add cusps.
This changes the regular homotopy class, but does not change the homotopy class of the maps. and a cusp can be added for each missing intersection point. Adding a cusp is a local operation and can be chosen to not hit a nbhd of the boundary if you wish. The $n=1$ case is actually pretty insightful for how to do this.
 
Ok. Thanks again.
There's a question on main about Kirby fiagrams you can probably answer with more confidence than I can.
 
A_V
9:03 PM
Hi
I'm currently making a small video game and I need help with a mathematic formula for it.
 
more details could be helpful ?
 
A_V
0
Q: Calculating another point on a circle from radiants

A_VI have a program that tells me the angle in radiants of a cursor from another item, let's say it's a star. See this picture -> i.stack.imgur.com/1MoTq.png What I want is to take this X2,Y2 point and deviate it a bit on the left or right from the cursor angle. See this picture -> i.stack.imgur....

I am trying to have an object fly a little bit "off" the cursor by adding a few degree, but I need the exact point to where it will go
Is this easy to do ? Could someone give me hints ?
 
@DanielFischer Lars Ahlfors states, "In the region obtained by omitting these half-lines, the principal branch of $\log(1-e^{2iz})$ is hence singled-valued and analytic." The half-lines he's referring to is where $1-e^{2iz}$ is real and negative. Is this a misstatement? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say something like, "Using the principal branch of the logarithm, $\log(1-e^{2iz})$ is single-valued and analytic in the region obtained by omitting these half-lines."
 
ahh, the joy of hypergeometric function identities which i don't know how to prove :/
 
@RandomVariable I would rather say the second, but both are okay, I guess.
 
9:18 PM
from mathematica, i'm getting $$_3\tilde{F}_2(1/2,1/2,1;n+1,n-1|x)=\left(\frac{x}{16}\right)^n \binom{2n}{n}{_2F_1}(n+1/2,n+1/2;2n+1|x)$$ for nonnegative integer $n$
where $_pF_q$ and $_p\tilde{F}_q$ are the (generalized) hypergeometric and regularized hypergeometric functions
and i haven't a clue how to prove it :/
 
@DanielFischer I used Ahlfors' wording in similar situations until people started not understanding what I was talking about.
 
@A_V your point is totally ambiguous
 
A_V
Sorry, let me try to explain it better
 
hi @ted
 
@RandomVariable The second is more straightforward, but I'd think one should understand both (if the necessary subject-matter knowledge is present).
 
9:31 PM
ack. my above statement should've had $1-n$ instead of $n-1$ on the LHS
 
A_V
You have the starting point and the cursor is the second point.
You have the angle between those two points.
You want to add 0.5 radiant to the angle and calculate the resulting "second point".
The distance from the starting point remains the same
 
i see
its an equation of a circle
what do u have as a data
angle or point coordinates ?
 
A_V
I have two point coordinates and an angle i.stack.imgur.com/7XcMu.png
 
the inpu t
 
Hi @Semiclassic
 
9:35 PM
is it an angle or coordinates
 
how goes the move?
 
A_V
Well I have a pair of coordinates and I'm looking for another coordinate on the circle
 
i mean is it the coordinate of the center of the circle or just the angle made with the axis
 
Sale done; leaving on a jet plane tomorrow morning :)
 
A_V
yes I do have the coordinate of the center of the circle
 
9:37 PM
ahh
 
Everyone's too young for that allusion :)
 
hmmm
 
i don't think you'll be back again, though
 
that would take an important time
 
(pretty sure i do get that allusion, hah)
 
9:37 PM
Sure I will :)
Yes, you done did
 
I hope your plane doesn't crash, @TedShifrin
 
Um, gee, thanks, @MikeM ... You pissed off?
 
No, I sincerely hope that!
 
It's considered customary to avoid saying such things ....
 
wait a minute
 
9:40 PM
it's sort of the opposite of 'break a leg'
 
Jeez, @Ted, I'm just offering my well-wishes.
 
@A_V look
 
Well, I hope you don't get run over going home.
 
let $r=\sqrt{(x-x_0)^2+(y-y_0)^2}$ where $(x_0,y_0)$ coordinates of the center and $(x,y)$ of the point
 
Thanks! Me too.
 
A_V
9:44 PM
Yes ?
 
oh, @ted. in connection with the wedge product stuff we were discussing, i noticed that wikipedia mentions the following (rather elementary, i suppose) isomorphism: $\Lambda(V\oplus W)\cong\Lambda(V)\otimes \Lambda(W)$
 
your angle is $arccos(\frac{(x-x_0)}{r})+\delta$
 
so presumably it's that kind of relation which i should be thinking in terms of
 
where $\delta$ is the supplementary angle
 
I said that, but I warned you that the left is totally skew-symmetric and the right isn't.
 
9:46 PM
so
 
i must've forgotten it
 
Depends whether you're thinking of internal or external direct sum.
 
you'll have to clarify that distinction
 
if these are subspaces of some ambient space (which you can define them to be), then you can totally skew-symmetrize in the ambient space.
internal dir sum refers to that situation.
 
hmm. well, in my case i want $V$ to be the subspace of some Hilbert space $H$ and $W=V^\perp$
 
9:50 PM
Right, internal ... So the lhs needs to be totally skew-symmetric, right?
You're just doing $\Lambda(H)$.
 
A_V
Okay so that should retrieve the angle Agawa001 ?
 
right
 
A_V
the end point I mean *
 
$cos(angle)=\frac{X}{Y}=\frac{X}{\sqrt{r^2-X^2}}$
thats the equation
 
ultimately i want to write out elements like $h^*h$ where $h\in \Lambda(H)$ and $h^*$ is its dual (in terms of row/column vectors, i want an outer product)
 
9:53 PM
@Semiclassic: The iso is still correct; I'm just reminding you to skew-symmetrize the tensor on the right.
 
no guarantees i didn't say something silly on that last line
ah, okay
 
ok @A_V ?
 
so i can think of the RHS as $\Lambda(V)\wedge \Lambda(V^\perp)$? or is that an abuse of notation
 
do you like it as an answer ?
 
A_V
Yeah that should do it, I'm trying it right now
 
9:54 PM
You want other order, probably, for the outer product. No biggie.
 
right
 
As long as you understand that wedge is going on inside the big vector space, it's fine.
 
@A_V do you want a simulation answer to your question ?
 
A_V
I think I do ahahahha
I can give you some number wait a minute
 
9:58 PM
btw, i don't think i ever explained why i was interested in this
basically, i was trying to figure out the manipulations leading to equation (9) of this paper, but working in the language of exterior algebra rather than the usual physicist bra-ket notation
in the hopes of developing my facility with the former
 
A_V
The radians angle is : 0.3616
Starting point: -170,314
End point:938,631
How would you calculate an end point that would be a bit off to one side or the other from that ?
 
wait
 
10:43 PM
Hi @Semiclassical
Hi @TedShifrin
 
11:24 PM
corrected
hell ,
a typo in the legend name
 
A_V
Thanks a log @Agawa001, I owe you one ! going back to stackoverflow now :)
 
@dont mention it :) we are here to help each other, regards
 
11:42 PM
I don't know how long I have. My computer seems to be having a problem. It will only hold a network connection for a short while before shutting down all networking. >8(
2
I am at the Apple Store waiting for the computer to fail
 
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