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10:00 PM
He is an irritating prat, ya know.
 
we all know :(
 
@TedShifrin, It's good, thanks. I've slogged my way through to chapter 18, but I haven't had much time lately as life has been a little crazy.
 
@nsanger Calculus?
 
@BalarkaSen Yup.
 
I read it from Pischkunov [of course something's wrong with the spelling =)]
 
10:02 PM
I'm on chapter 22 with my high school student, @nsanger. Keep going!
Good crazy or bad crazy?
 
@TedShifrin You teach high schoolers?
 
Well, both.
 
@BalarkaSen Hmm...you ve been warned.
 
Confusing, @nsanger, but ok. :)
 
Just busy, so stressful at times, but worthwhile.
 
10:05 PM
@Sawarnik Listen up, if I complain OEIS of having too much spammy emails from you, the would just ban you outta there.
So no fear, idiot.
 
I've been skipping around some in Spivak too, just because I need to get ready for the AP in about 1.5 months, so I have a good deal to come back too.
 
@BalarkaSen I have other methods too.
 
@Sawarnik Hah! Like?
 
@BalarkaSen That will be unleashed when you continue this way. I wont tell now.
 
Then you have no other method.
 
10:06 PM
Come on guys, take it to The Root of Math please :-)
 
I am sleepy, so I need to sleep.
 
If you're doing BC, @nsanger, do sequences, series, Taylor stuff.
 
Goodby!
 
@BalarkaSen I bought your Piskunov II for Calc II.
@BalarkaSen You will know when the attack comes.
 
@Sawarnik Finey.
 
10:07 PM
Yeah, I will. By skipping around I mean anything with a double-star is a no-go.
I also need to find a good place to learn the diff eq. for the exam, since I don't think Spivak covers that.
 
@nsanger Apostol has ODEs.
 
Then I am should sleep too. Peace now.
 
No, he doesn't. Basics on slope fields and separable DEs with initial conditions.
 
@Pedro, but costs around $60, I think :(
 
You don't need near the amount Apostol does, but slope fields were after his time :)
 
10:09 PM
 
I'll probably just snag some PDFs from the internet, or maybe pick up an AP review book if I can get over the lack-of-rigor-induced seizures they give me.
 
Costs?
 
Yeah.
I could probably buy a pretty cheap used copy, but I don't feel a need to buy another Calculus book.
 
The AP is totally non-rigorous, sadly. When I took it we had to write $\delta$-$\epsilon$ proofs.
 
10:10 PM
no
 
:(|)
 
yes
 
Good god, @seaturtles, you publishing textbooks here now?
 
@TedShifrin that's cool, I didn't know they had that.
And I have AP Physics too, which is intuition galore...
 
continual erosion of standards in rigorous math, @nsanger. Now students can get math majors in college without writing proofs. Sigh.
 
10:12 PM
@nsanger what textbook do you use for AP Physics?
 
We don't use a textbook much, but the one they handed out is called "Fundamentals of Physics" by Halliday and Resnick.
Jearl walker wrote it too, I think.
 
@TedShifrin Not at mine. They can get math majors without writing proofs well, though.
 
H&R was the standard college physics text in the 70s.
 
Yeah it looks okay from what I've seen, but I haven't read much.
 
Try
 
10:15 PM
It's a little too "$dy$ and $dx$ are infinitely small quantities" for my taste, but I doubt there's many physics test where you can avoid that.
 
We're about to add an applied major that basically requires none, @Mike. But plenty of our current students can't write decent proofs or do a two-finger calculus computation correctly. Bitter!
Get over it, @nsander. Make them $\Delta$ if that assuages your conscience.
 
We have an applied emphasis that still requires that they take discrete math and linear algebra. The math dept's statistics course is proof-based as well.
 
Bitter? are you?
 
From what I know Mechanics and E&M can be done with complete rigor without curl, surface integrals, and other multivar calc, so it's probably an unreasonable expectation to have of the AP class, though.
 
What's a "two-finger calculus computation", @Ted?
 
10:17 PM
Hi, @Daniel: A two-finger problem requires two steps of problem-solving, etc.
 
@TedShifrin, well that was just an example. I mean in general it's very lax with math, but I've learned to adopt an attitude of "this still looks like it would work" and move on.
 
Not with complete rigor, @nsanger. The math is essential for rigor in physics.
 
@TedShifrin We asked people recently to integrate $\ln$. You may or may not be surprised at how they fared.
 
Don't all problems require two steps, @Ted? Solving it, and writing it up?
 
$1/x$ @Mike.
 
10:18 PM
@TedShifrin AUGH. That was one response.
 
@seaturtles Did you hear about $\Omega$-groups?
 
Then add one automatically, @Daniel.
 
"Well, I like to remember that integration is the reverse of differentiation, and the derivative of $\ln$ is $1/x$, so that $\int \ln x = 1/x$.
"Err..."
"oh, oops, $1/x + C$
 
10:19 PM
my god.
 
Hi @Karl.
 
I always hated the constant .
 
@PedroTamaroff were they in the news this mroing? no, haven't heard of them, what are they?
 
Hi @TedShifrin.
 
The constant is crucial for any application. Then there's the point that you have as many "constants" as you have connected components! :D
 
10:21 PM
@seaturtles Say you have a set $\Omega$, and a map $\Omega\times G\to G$, $(\omega,g)\mapsto \omega g$ such that $\omega(gh)=(\omega g)(\omega h)$.
 
@PedroTamaroff Is there a reason to care?
 
Then an $\Omega$-map for $G$ is a group morphism that respects this operation.
A group is a $\varnothing$-group. =P
And you have generalization of all known things.
 
hm, so $\Omega$ is a subset of the set of endomorphisms of $G$.
 
Like Jordan Hölder, Krull Schmidt and so on.
 
@PedroTamaroff No, a $\{\cdot\}$-group.
 
10:23 PM
@DanielFischer It's also a $\null$-group, no?
 
Count on @Daniel :)
 
yeah, I've heard of those. "group with operators."
 
@seaturtles Yes.
 
@Mike $\varnothing\times G = \varnothing$
 
High fives @Daniel :)
 
10:23 PM
@DanielFischer Yes, and there's a unique map $\varnothing \rightarrow G$.
Trivially this map satisfies what we want it to.
 
@seaturtles Where does that big answer you shared fit into? Algebra, sure, but what subfield?
I did upvote by the way.
 
that's algebraic number theory
 
+1 for effort
 
@Mike Do I sound like an asshole here?
 
Without looking, yes.
 
10:27 PM
@seaturtles Look. Not as fancy as yours, though. =)
 
lol.
 
@PedroTamaroff The first thing you linked is trivially false.
He fucked up his $\geq$.
 
@Mike Yes, in the body. Not in the title.
 
@TedShifrin So what questions does Hodge theory hope to answer?
 
@seaturtles I am not sure if the OP wants to prove, however, that subgroups of order $p^\alpha$ exists for every $\alpha$ with $p^{\alpha}$. I explained Wielandt's proof, but it strikes me as if the author has adapted it for the more general case.
 
10:32 PM
I'm not an expert, @Mike, and I certainly won't try to write anything on the iPad. Variation of Hodge structure was one of Phil Griffiths' big deals.
Isn't it time for your plane? @Mike
 
Why should I care about Hodge structure? Vector bundles are easy to care about, say - they're nice geometric objects that depend on the manifold you're considering them over, so they're just another nice geometric thing to study.
 
@PedroTamaroff I have successfully evangelized G-set thinking to you? :)
 
@TedShifrin No
 
@seaturtles You have!
 
Careful, @Pedro, G-sets are almost geometry.
 
10:36 PM
@TedShifrin ORLY.
 
Yup.
 
Google says a G-set is... just a group action?
 
felix klein's defn of geometry was invariants under a group of motions
Yup @Mike
 
how exactly are these different ways of thinking
 
@Mike Yes, a G-set is a set S upon which G acts.
I like that sentence.
@TedShifrin Rotman has a section on "geometry" groups. I skipped it. =/
I am a bad bad person.
 
10:38 PM
@Mike: One word. Moduli. That's it for now.
 
I did gloss over it, though.
@seaturtles
 
I will punish you in August, @Pedro.
 
@TedShifrin About that, I really need to know some tentative schedule.
Is it possible?
 
Well, pick something like Aug 5-15, @Pedro.
 
@PedroTamaroff ?
 
10:40 PM
Tentative schedule of what?
 
@TedShifrin Ah, that seems fine. I will look at it.
 
hi hi
 
@Mike World Domination.
@seaturtles This is clear yes?
 
:( aww no one notices
 
I feel left out.
 
10:42 PM
Now you know how I felt, @Mike! And I'll be looking for you in the Bay Area, @Mike.
Howdy @usukidoll
 
hi hi @Ted
 
@usukidoll hai
no eating allowed
 
hi hi @seaturtles
 
@TedShifrin I messaged you minutes after you said so :D
 
Oh ... Too busy here to have noted @Mike.
 
10:44 PM
@PedroTamaroff yes
 
R u sure? @Mike
 
@TedShifrin Not on email... :)
 
@Mike IZ?
 
Not on FB, either, apparently.
 
@PedroTamaroff Maybe in a bit, my flight is in an hour and I'm going to get lunch/dinner.
@TedShifrin Check messages, maybe it's in the 'other' section.
 
10:47 PM
Maybe you messaged my evil twin, @Mike.
 
@TedShifrin It says I messaged you 'about an hour ago'/.
 
Damn, Rotman has a terrible typo.
 
I also can't add you, since I"m not a friend-of-a-friend of yours.
 
$k2^{m-1}+2^r=2^r(k2^{m-k -1}-1)$
 
lol
 
10:49 PM
Hmm, and I don't get messages from non-friends, I guess.
 
@TedShifrin Bizarre. You can find me pretty easily.
Hi @5space\
 
@Mike Howdy!
 
@TedShifrin But I did message you.
 
Just got your email. Glad it went well :-)
 
@5space Maida's emailing me about getting a double in Weyburn already.
 
10:51 PM
@Mike: I got tired of people I didn't know at all trying to friend me .... I changed it.
 
I'm confused on a question... I was thinking about it because I'm wondering if $R$ is transitive if and only if $ R \circ R \subseteq R$.
I don't think it is because for R to be transitive, we need
$(\forall x,y,z \in S)[(x,y) \in R \land (y,z) \in R) \rightarrow (x,z) \in R$
that has three elements x, y, and z

The composite definition for $R_2 \circ R_1$ is
$(x,y) \in S \times S: (\exists v \in S)( (x,v) \in R_1 \land (v,y) \in R_2$

but since I just have $R \circ R$, then
$(x,y) \in S \times S: (\exists v \in S)( (x,v) \in R \land (v,y) \in R$
 
@mike, wow that is fast!
 
@5space Yah.
 
@5space So you've committed?
 
Yeah, I was mostly sure before I went.
 
10:52 PM
Very nice. Congrats!
 
@5space you just pinged yourself?
 
True @Pedro. I guess I assumed we were friends, which we're not. I'm confuzled.
 
Haha. Yeah I'm super cool like that.
 
@skullpatrol Self-lovin is good.
 
10:53 PM
rolls all six eyes
 
You can tell finals week is upon me.
 
Or it comes of living in too many dimensions, @5space
 
@TedShifrin I thought that was also known as finals week :-P
 
Mayhaps.
 
@TedShifrin do you have two pairs of glasses on?
 
10:56 PM
._________.
 
Nope, none atm.
 
@TedShifrin why six eyes?
 
@TedShifrin Sent.
 
Yup, I done seen ...
Why not @skull? Makes emphatic rolling.
 
icic
 
10:59 PM
Ok, time to go exploring for dinner. Safe flight @Mike
 
later
 
-___- and I found the solution to my problem..turned out I just had to apply the definitions facepalm
4
 
Isn't that most of your problems? :P
 
.-. at least I'm trying and not giving up
 
@usukidoll That's a good quality to have!
 
11:10 PM
I just have to figure out the biconditional statement... I have applied the definitions.. just don't know what to do next
$R$ is transitive if and only if $ R \circ R \subseteq R$



I was thinking about it because I'm wondering if R is transitive if and only if R∘R⊆R.
I don't think it is because for R to be transitive, we need
(∀x,y,z∈S)[(x,y)∈R∧(y,z)∈R)→(x,z)∈R
that has three elements x, y, and z

The composite definition for R2∘R1 is
(x,y)∈S×S:(∃v∈S)((x,v)∈R1∧(v,y)∈R2

but since I just have R∘R, then
(x,y)∈S×S:(∃v∈S)((x,v)∈R∧(v,y)∈R

Add to the fact that R∘R⊆R so R∘R belongs in R thanks to (∀x)[x∈R∘R→x∈R]

The R is the equivalence relation on a set S. For each element x∈S, the set [x]=[y∈S:(x,y)∈R] is the e
I'm looking at another question on stackexchange..turns out it is transitive -_-
 
@Mike OK, this is weird. @seaturtles
 
-_-
 
11:25 PM
Rotman is saying that one can find $k$ so that $k2^{m-r-1}+1=0\mod 2^{m-r}$. But going down $\mod 2$ this gives an odd $0$ mod $2$ which is ridiculous.
@seaturtles @Mike
Unless I am completely misunderstanding things.
 
If $k$ is taken to be an integer that's false
 
Yeah, it's an effing integer.
 
It implies $k2^{m-4}+2 \equiv 0 \mod 2^{m-r}$ \implies $2 \equiv 0 \mod 2^{m-r}$ which is obviously false for large enough $m-r$.
 
LOL at a flagged comment. "That's your opinion, and last time I checked nobody gave a s**t about your opinion."
 
Using Rouche's theorem at the moment in our studies. I can't seem to get the inequalities right to make all of the zeros of $p(z)=z^6-z^3+z+8$ land inside of the disk in $|z|=2$. I have a huge problem with inequalities and this section is making me realize it. Does anyone see it?
 
11:28 PM
@PedroTamaroff Link?
 
@Mike It's in the flagged stuff list. You cannot see it.
You need more cheese ma men.
 
Damn you.
 
@PedroTamaroff and you hotlinked the image... tsk, tsk.
 
@robjohn I like that he hotlinked an image of a pirate.
 
@seaturtles The problem at hand is to show that if a group $G$ contain elements $x,y$ with $x$ of order $2^m$, $y^2=x^{2^r}$ and $yxy^{-1}=x^t$ then $t=\pm 1,\pm 1+2^{m-1}$, and in this last case, $G$ contains at least two involutions.
One is of course $x^{2^{m-1}}$.
We want to show the other is $x^ky$ for some appropriate $k$.
 
11:34 PM
@Mike all I saw was this
 
But $x^kyx^ky^{-1}y^{2}=x^kx^{tk}x^{2^r}$
So we want $k+tk+2^r=0\mod 2^m$.
 
@PedroTamaroff applying conjugation-by-$y$ twice to $x$ yields $x=x^{t^2}$ hence $t^2\equiv1$ mod $2^m$ hence $t\equiv\pm1$ mod $2^{m-1}$. if $y^2=x^{2^r}$ then $y^{2^{m-r}}$ is an involution. if $yxy^{-1}=x^{\pm1+2^{m-1}}$ then $x^{\mp1}yxy^{-1}$ is an involution.
 
@seaturtles You did read what I said Rotman did?
 
oh, there were more pings above
 
@seaturtles You're not being careful, I think.
$x^{2^{m-1}}$ is not an involution.
Which is what you're calling $x^{\mp 1}x^y$.
 
11:44 PM
nargh I'm stuck on the transitive part of the question... , but at least I know what's going on for $ R \circ R \subseteq R$
 
And $y^{2^{m-r}}$ is just $x^{2^{m-1}}$-.
 
@PedroTamaroff square $x^{2^{m-1}}$ and what do we get?
@PedroTamaroff I suppose I should have checked they're distinct
 
0
Q: $R$ is transitive if and only if $ R \circ R \subseteq R$

usukidollQuestion: Let $R$ be a relation on a set $S$. Prove the following. $R$ is transitive if and only if $ R \circ R \subseteq R$. Definition 6.3.9 states that we let $R_1$ and $R_2$ be relations on a set $S$. The composition of $R_2$ with $R_1$ is the relation $R_2 \circ R_1 =[(x,y) \in S \times...

 
@seaturtles Sorry, not that.
They are the same.
That's what I mean.
I thought somehow you ended up with $x^{2^{m-2}}$.
Dunno whyu.
@usukidoll Transitive means that $(x,y),(y,z)\implies (x,z)$. In particular then if $(x,y)\in R\circ R$, i.e if there exists $z$ for which $(x,z),(z,y)$, then $(x,y)\in R$ by transitivity.
Thus $R\circ R\subseteq R$.
The reciprocal is also a direct use of the definitions.
Be careful and thorough.
@seaturtles Right, that's the point.
Rotman wants to show for some appropriate $k$; $x^ky$ is an involution.
 
dude... I need to expand that transitive definition... all I know is that the steps take longer to establish to $(x,z)$. It's one of the problems that many in class got nailed on
ah in a nutshell how to prove transitivity and then wham I can take it from there....I think
 
11:48 PM
Okay, call me out if I am wrong, but I think the way to split it up is

$|z+8|\leq |z|+8 = 10 < 56 = |z^3|||z^3|-|1||\leq |z^3||z^3-1|=|z^6-z^3|$.

By Rouche's Theorem $z^6-z^3$ and $z^6-z^3+z+8$ have the same number of zeros inside of $|z|=2$.
 
@Prototank @Mike Knows complex analysis.
@usukidoll In fact $R$ is symmetri c iff $R^{-1}\subseteq R$, transitive iff $RR\subseteq R$, reflexive iff $I\subseteq R$ where $I$ is the identity relation.
 
I just have to prove transitivity... I think I have to somehow get the result to (x,z) but I'm not sure how that part works...
 
@seaturtles Do you agree Rotman's approach is flawed?
 
I know the rest of that one particular question though...
if R is transitive then $R \circ R \subseteq R$
it's the transitive part...a bit stuck on that one
 
@usukidoll Proving $RR\subseteq R\implies R$ is transitive?
 
11:57 PM
I'm doing if $R$ is transitive, then $R \circ R \subseteq R$
I know the ending... just proving the beginning is a BEE BEE
$ R \circ R$ is a subset of $R$ so $ R \circ R$ belongs in $R$ and they have some elements in common as well.
I could see that part clearly... but putting transitive in the mix is driving me ntus
 
@usukidoll Start by choosing an arbitrary element of $R\circ R$ then show it is in $R$?
 
-___-
Definition 6.3.9 states that we let $R_1$ and $R_2$ be relations on a set $S$. The composition of $R_2$ with $R_1$ is the relation $R_2 \circ R_1 =[(x,y) \in S \times S :(\exists v \in S)((x,v) \in R \land (v,y) \in R_2$.\\


Definition 6.2.9 states that we let $R$ be an equivalence relation on a set $S$. For each element $x \in S $ the set $[x]=[y \in S: (x,y) \in R$ is the equivalence class with respect to $R$. \\
since $R \circ R$
$R \circ R =[(x,y) \in S \times S :(\exists v \in S)((x,v) \in R \land (v,y) \in R$
 

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