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3:01 PM
@Balarka Are you still there?
 
Right, so for one the volume form eats an orthonormal basis of $T_pM$ and takes the value $1$, because that's the volume of the box. I think in general the value of the form on a set of basis vectors of $T_p M$ is the determinant of the Gram-Schmidt matrix with which you orthonormalize that basis. I'll have to write something out to prove this.
 
Don't bother.
You've been missing one adjective in front of "orthonormal basis" and "Riemannian manifold" this whole time. Can you tell me what this is?
 
Positively oriented? I need a choice of orientation, I suppose.
 
No I suppose about it. Why do you need it?
 
For one, I need orientability to have a top dimensional form. But after that I have two choices of orientation: a positive orientation gives that the top dimensional form takes value $1$ on the orthonormal basis, and $-1$ if it's the other orientation.
So I need to choose an orientation to have a well defined unique volume form. Might as well choose a positive orientation, because $-1$ requires two characters to write, while $1$ requires one.
 
3:09 PM
Good answer.
 
I made it better.
 
@BalarkaSen Well, it's "oriented Riemannian manifold", not positively oriented. But yes, I want a positively oriented basis.
@BalarkaSen OK, so that's all I wanted from you for now. Indeed, all you needed to do to define the volume form $\omega$ is to define $\omega_p(e_1, \dots, e_n) = 1$, where $e_i$ is an oriented orthonormal basis for $T_p M$.
Because $\Lambda^n T_pM$ is 1-dimensional, this specifies it on every vector. (To use your language: If you write out the matrix $\{v_1, \dots, v_n\}$ with respect to the above basis, this spits out the determinant of that matrix.)
 
Right, now I see. Of course; I agree.
 
One then checks that this is a smoothly varying differential form (this just comes from picking a set $E_n$ of locally defined, smoothly varying vector fields, that form an oriented orthonormal basis; that this is possible is more or less Gram-Schmidt)
And that it didn't depend on the choice of oriented orthonormal basis (can you tell me why that's true right now?)
And that this is the same thing as your differential form (This is either clear or an exercise)
Tell me when you're done with this.
@Balarka Maybe you could look at this later so I could say the other things I wanted to say? I am a little short on time this morning.
 
Ah, sure. I got distracted seeing something funny politicians are saying in the TV.
(generally they are a good source of entertainment; but maybe this is not the time for jokes)
 
3:23 PM
Thanks... The other thing was to go back earlier when you were defining the 2-form on a surface in $\Bbb R^3$. You wrote down its coordinate expression in an evocative way: $n_3 dx_1 \wedge dx_2 + \dots$.
The "differential forms only" way of doing this is to say that one considers the vector field $N$ along the surface, its unit oriented normal vector. If $\omega$ is the volume form on $\Bbb R^3$, then the volume form on the surface is $\iota_N \omega$, defined by $\iota_N \omega(v,w) = \omega(N,v,w)$. This is more or less the same thing as what you said, but stated in the language of differential forms.
$\iota_N \omega$ is called the "interior product".
 
Oh, that makes sense.
Yeah, I agree.
 
probably pedantic, but should i read that as $(\iota_N \omega)(v,w)$?
 
yeah
1) See why this, also, gives the volume form on the surface. 2) Generalize this construction to submanifolds of higher codimension. You will need to work locally here, so this might be less inspiring.
 
i read that as formalizing the expression $\omega=\mathbf{n}\cdot d\mathbf{S}$
 
Exactly!
 
3:29 PM
It is indeed.
@MikeMiller Thanks, that's a bunch of things to think about. I'll start working on them.
 
for my purposes i'm fine with that vector-based expression
 
3) In $\Bbb R^3$, I've now told you about two dualities. vector fields are equated with 2-forms by $V \iff \iota_V \omega$. (See, in general, why this gives an equality $\mathfrak X(M) = \Omega^{n-1}(M)$ on manifolds with a volume form; as $C^\infty(M)$-modules if you like.) We also can get there on a Riemannian manifold via identifying vector fields with 1-forms and then by identifying 1-forms with (n-1)-forms (Hodge duality).
 
but then my purposes tend to be quite restricted
 
See why these two dualities are the same thing: why $\iota_V \omega_g = \ast_gX^\sharp$ ($\sharp$ is the map sending 1-forms to vector fields; or possibly that's denoted $\flat$, I always forget which).
 
@Hippalectryon related to what I previously showed you, the math world I entered for some years is a pretty tough one. I mean saying that you're self-educated or other stuff like that won't impress anyone, no one cares about that, you can be simply told not to publish anything. I mean that being self-educated makes you just far more responsible than the people with all kind of degrees, and a self-educated one really has to come up with mavellous stuff if the case of publishing things.
 
3:32 PM
4) See why an orientation on a manifold $M$ is equivalent to choosing a nonvanishing volume form, up to multiplication with a positive smooth function, and the existence of such a volume form is the same thing as being orientable. Use this definition of orientation to see why the boundary of a manifold is orientable. Give it a canonical orientation.
 
@user1618033 True, but that's also understandable. You need some kind of safeguard to avoid being flooded by "bad" submissions. And self educated or not, once you've already made one recognized publication it's much easier I believe.
 
@Hippalectryon To be right in the top if possible.
 
5) Let $M$ be an oriented manifold, and $N$ a codimension 1 hypersurface. Prove that $N$ is orientable if and only if it has a nonvanishing normal vector field. (Interpret normal appropriately.) What's special about boundaries?
 
@Hippalectryon Yeah, I know. I just wanted to emphasize that being self-educated is never an excuse or a reason for the other to be nicer with you (when trying to publish anything). It just makes you more responsible, and the expectations are higher.
 
That's all I've got.
 
3:34 PM
I have to bookmark them. Thanks.
 
Feel free to ping me with responses even if I'm not in here. I don't think this is more than what you should be able to do within the span of a few hours to a day.
 
I have sketches for a few of the problems already, but I'll think through them first.
 
notational question for you, mike
 
@MikeMiller No, it's definitely not. It'll motivate me to work harder. I'll be sure to ping you with solutions.
 
Sure, @Semiclassical, but then I gotta run, gotta grade two weeks of algebraic topology homework by noon.
 
3:36 PM
interior product as $\iota_N \omega$ or as N_|\omega (i'm forgetting what the latex symbol for that is)
 
Some people write the latter, I don't like to.
 
mmkay
 
I can remember Cartan's magic formula with the i's, not with the _|'s :)
 
i'm comfortable with the $\mathbf{n}\cdot d\mathbf{S}$ language, but I tend to think in terms of 3D applications
 
Sure, just keep in mind that you can't use vector fields for everything starting in dimension 4.
 
3:38 PM
sure
 
I don't know of a definition of $dS$ without using forms though.
 
(Or when you don't have a canonical Riemannian metric.)
@BalarkaSen He doesn't need a definition, just workable notation.
 
Fair.
 
and one advantage of the above notation is that it lets me drop back down into a coordinate-based representation for computational purposes easily, while still retaining the geometry
 
3:40 PM
yes, $n dS$ is better for intuition, I agree.
$dS$ is intuitively "infinitesimal bit of the surface" to me. That's what I use to interpret flux.
 
Depends on what you were introduced to first.
I understood $\bf n \cdot d \bf S$ only after I understood forms.
 
i imagine there's a simple counter-example in 4D? (something like $dx_1\wedge dx_2+dx_3\wedge dx_4$?)
 
2-forms in R^4 cannot be realized as vector fields in any way i know, yes
in R^3 you have hodge duality to help you
 
@Hippalectryon I've been waiting for an important article to be published - which presents a new very cool idea ... (all was fine so far - waiting for the very last step - the final decision)
 
right. which comes down to the fact that $3+0=2+1=1+2=0+3$, all of which involve either 0 or 1
 
3:43 PM
You could, like, use the Hodge dual to identify them with wedge products of vector fields. But by the time you're wedging vector fields we've thrown out babies and bathwaters and lots more.
 
@user1618033 Don't forget to tell me if some of your work gets published as articles :-)
 
@Hippalectryon OK OK
 
right.
the other thing that gets weird for the purposes of applications is that, if you're doing 4D, that usually means you're really doing something in 3+1 spacetime
in which case the notion of 'geometry' becomes far less transparent
e.g. the hodge dual of $dx_1\wedge dx_2$ would be $dx_3\wedge dt$ (up to a choice of sign w/e)
 
well, then you want to be doing Lorentzian geometry, which I know nothing about
you do still have a Hodge duality
 
sure, sure.
 
3:46 PM
By the way, to finish what I was saying above: in the formality of Riemannian metric I described, the parametrized surface $S$ in $\Bbb R^3$ gets a natural Riemannian metric: $[E, F; F, G]$, using the notation already introduced. This is apparently called the "first fundamental form" on $S$. Not really deep, just a cute context we're putting our first half of the discussion in.
 
The "first fundamental form" is old-fashioned terminology for the Riemannian metric. :)
It was Gauss's remarkable discovery (his theorema egregium) that it was what actually carried the notion of 'curvature', not the ambient embedding, that leads us to think about the modern idaes of Riemannian geometry.
 
Right. I'd like to know what the second fundamental form is, but I'll not be greedy and be patient for when it comes up later.
@MikeMiller interesting.
 
I imagine Ted will say. It's about the geometry of hypersurfaces. I don't understand it that well, since I'm not much of a Riemannian geometer.
OK, time to go. @Balarka: The sooner you get those done, the sooner I can talk to you about other interesting things.
 
the other reason i don't know much about the 3+1-dimensional case is that the major focus in that case is usually general relativity
 
3:49 PM
@MikeMiller Thanks for those. I'll think about it and get back.
 
which i've never had a class on, so i'm not at all versed in what questions one would ask
later @mike
 
 
1 hour later…
4:53 PM
Given a pair of numbers how many steps does it take in the Euclidian algorithm
How do you approximate the number of steps
 
That's essentially the same as asking how long the continued fraction for their ratio is, right?
Like, (43,30) -> (13, 30) -> (13, 4) -> (1, 4), and:$$\frac{43}{30}=1+\cfrac1{2+\cfrac1{3+\cfrac14}}$$
(That is how the algorithm works, right?)
 
Can anyone help with this: stats.stackexchange.com/questions/211058/… ? It's an application of statistics, but seems a very simple matter of counting.
 
5:16 PM
Yup. Correct @AkivaWeinberger
So do we have a method of calculating how long the continued fraction would go?
Wait.
 
@AkivaWeinberger can you please tel me if the answer is correct :math.stackexchange.com/questions/1771892/…
 
5:59 PM
@BalarkaSen Any progress?
 
6:18 PM
@robjohn I posted the question in the main:
1
Q: Show the embedding

EvindaI want to show the embedding $W^{1,p}(0,1) \subset C^0 [0,1]$. So we pick a $u \in W^{1,p}(0,1)$ and want to show that $u \in C^0 [0,1]$. Let $x_n \to x$. We want to show that $u(x_n) \to u(x)$. Since $u \in W^{1,p}(0,1)$ we have that $u \in L_p$ and $u' \in L_p$. And you told me to use t...

 
6:52 PM
@Evinda What is $C^0[0,1]$?
 
If $u \in C^0[0,1]$, it means that it is continuous on [0,1] and it is 0 at $+\infty$. @Mambo
 
That doesn't make any sense
 
got 90 % @BalarkaSen
sorry been quite busy
 
Why? @Mambo
 
Why is $[0,1]$ considered then ? @Evinda
 
6:54 PM
the only thing worse than waiting for mathematica code to run? leaving to do something else while it runs, and coming back to find it crashed
 
I am currently studying commutative algebra and algebraic topology and homological algebra and reviewing algebra and analysis and point set topology
to get ready for masters
@BalarkaSen
 
The function may not be defined outside $[0,1]$
 
Oh, maybe it's then a typo. I suppose that it is meant that u(0)=0. @Mambo
 
I am just not coming here often as when I come I find myself procrastinating by listening to people talk here @BalarkaSen
But I will come if I have any questions or would like to discuss something
 
@Evinda The result is not true.
 
7:00 PM
Why? @Mambo
 
It might be true if you consider $W_0^{1,p}(0,1)$
consider $cos(x)$ on $(0,1)$. this belongs to $W^{1,p}(0,1)$
It is not zero on the boundary
@Evinda Do you know what is $W_0^{1,p}(0,1)$?
 
$u \in W_0^{1,p}(0,1) \iff u \in W^{1,p}(0,1)$ and $u=0$ for x=0 and x=1, right? @Mambo
 
True, but can you prove that?
@Adeek So what question do you have now?
@Evinda Do you know what a absolutely continuous function is?
 
Isn't a function absolutely continuous if for $x_n \to x$ , $|u(x_n)| \to |u(x)|$ ?
Or am I wrong? @Mambo
 
wrong
It is much more stronger than uniform continuty
 
7:17 PM
I found this in wikipedia:
Do we use this in our case? @Mambo
 
In fact, if $u \in W^{1,p}(I)$, then $u$ is absolutely continuous
 
Why? How can we show it? @Mambo
 
$f$ is absolutely continuous if and only if $f$ is differentiable almost everwhere and $f(x) = f(0) + \int_0^x f'(x) dx$ for all $x \in [0,1]$
Use this fact
 
Doesn't $u \in W^{1,p}(0,1)$ mean that in $(0,1)$ it holds that $|u|_p<+\infty$ and $|u'|_p<+\infty$ ? @Mambo
 
yes
 
7:33 PM
And do we get from $|u'|_p<+\infty$ that u is differetiable almost everywhere? @Mambo
 
Since apriori we don't know what $u$ takes at $0$, let $\overline{u}(x) = \int_{a}^x u'(t)dt$ for some $a \in (0,1)$
 
What do we get from that? :/ @Mambo
 
then its classical derivative exists a.e. and is equal to $u'$ a.e.; this is distribution derivative also; hence in the sense of distributions, $(u-\overline{u})' = 0
Therefore, $u = \overline{u} + c$ for some constant $c$ a.e. and the latter is absolutely continuous
So it is uniformly continous hence extends to boundary continuously
 
@Mambo Do we deduce that its classical derivative exists a.e, since each integrable function is differentiable? Or doesn't this hold? And why a.e. and not everywhere?
 
We are working in $L^p$
 
7:45 PM
What does this mean? @Mambo
 
All we can speak about is a.e. as we don't know that $u$ is continuous or not
 
How do we know that the classical derivative of $\overline{u}$ exists a.e? @Mambo
 
By the definition
 
Couldn't we also just say that $\int_a^x u'(t) dt=u(x)-u(a)$, where $a \in (0,1)$ ? @Mambo
Then since $u \in W^{1,p}(0,1)$, the derivative $u'$ exists almost everywhere, right? @Mambo
 
yes
@Evinda Look at this
 
7:52 PM
@robjohn hello
 
If we write at the beginning $\int_a^x u'(t) dt=u(x)-u(a)$, we don't have to differentiate. Do we have to? @Mambo
 
The point is when we say $u \in W^{1,p}(0,1)$ it is actually an equivalence class of functions
When we say $u$ is absolutely continuous, in the equivalence class we have representative of $u$ which is absolutely continuous.
 
I am a little confused right now...
What equivalence class of functions is it?
 
a.e equivalence relation
 
What type of equivalence relation?
 
8:00 PM
$f~g$ if $f = g$ a.e.
Then $[f] \in L^p$
 
And how can we use it when we have that $u \in W^{1,p}(0,1)$ ?
 
$u \in C[0,1]$ means it has a continuous representative in its class
 
So u is not an element?
 
It is, when seen as equivalence class
 
$f$ is absolutely continuous iff it is differentiable almost everwhere and $f(x)=f(a)+\int_{a}^x f'(t) dt, \forall x \in [a,b]$.

Since $u' \in L^p \Rightarrow u' \in L^1 $ and so $\int_a^x u'(t) dt=u(x)-u(a)$.

Since $u' \in L^p$ we deduce that it is differentable a.e.

Is it right so far? @Mambo
 
8:07 PM
okay
 
Could I improve something? @Mambo
From that we deduce that $u$ is absolutely continuous, and thus continuous, right? @Mambo
 
and thus uniformly continuous
so it extends to boundary
 
What do you mean with " it extends to boundary " ?
 
Suppose $f$ is defined on $(a,b)$, when can it be extended to continuous function on $[a,b]$?
 
We define $f(a)$ as $\lim_{x \to a } f(x)$ and $f(b)$ as $\lim_{x \to b} f(x)$. @Mambo
 
8:14 PM
What if they don't exist?
Is $f(x) = 1/x$ continuous on $(0,1)$?
 
Yes, it is.
 
Can you extend it to $[0,1]$?
 
No the limit $\lim_{x \to 0} f(x)$ deos not exist @Mambo
 
What is the problem with this $f$?
 
That $\sup f(x)$ isn't finite?
 
8:20 PM
$\sin(1/x)$ on domain $(0,1)$ has finite sup but can't be extended to boundary either
 
That it's not uniformly continuous?
 
exactly
So prove that a function $f$ on $(a,b)$ can be extended to $[a,b]$ continuously if and only if $f$ is uniformly continuous on $(a,b)$
 
Hello, someone help me with normed space ?
 
@Evinda Show that $1/x$ and $sin(1/x)$ are not uniformly continuous and the above equivalence
@Vrouvrou yes
 
@Mambo But then it has to hold that $\lim_{x \to 0} u(x)=\lim_{x \to 1} u(x)=0$, right?
 
8:34 PM
not zero. the limits exist
The function $u(x) = cos(x) \in W^{1,p}(0,1)$
 
I mean because we want to show that $u \in C^0[0,1]$ @Mambo
 
I said already that it is wrong
 
So you mean that it just holds that $W^{1,p}(0,1) \subset C[0,1]$ ? @Mambo
 
Yes
 
So now it remains to show the theorem?
 
8:37 PM
Why are you reading Sobolev spaces now?
 
I am taking a course.
 
please @Mambo can you tel me if the answer is correct math.stackexchange.com/questions/1771892/…
 
We suppose that a function $f$ on $(a,b)$ can be extended to $[a,b]$ continuously . Then the limits $\lim_{x \to a} f(x)$ and $\lim_{x \to b} f(x)$ exist.
But how can show that f is uniformly continuous? In this case we cannot use the definition. Right? @Mambo
 
That is the easier part
@Evinda What definition are you speaking out?
 
8:56 PM
According to this post the problem with MathJax in the sidebar should already have been solved. But I still sometimes see problems like this: i.stack.imgur.com/NtEZK.png
Anybody else has the same problem with this link: math.stackexchange.com/questions/991059/… (or any other link to a comment)?
Weird. It works fine now. It did not when I took the screenshot.
 
No. It didn't
the letters are still hanging in the MSE link you posted
Actually I think refreshing the page once or twice solves it.
 
Thanks for testing. The strange thing is that it works now for me at the moment.
 
I refreshed it. Now it is fine. I have seen this in MO also
 
Yes. I asked mainly because SE dev wrote in a post that it should be fixed now.
 
yeah it should be
 
9:02 PM
Thanks for reporting guys and sorry for breaking this.. Fix is going to be live in < 24h — PaweÅ‚ Apr 25 at 6:04
 
Good work
 
@Mambo have you seen my question ?
 
@Vrouvrou I think it is already answered
 
yes but i don't think that the answer is correct ?
 
no it is
The bounded you expect is much bigger
 
9:11 PM
@Mambo I don't have a question now
 
user174558
Hello @adeek. I always wanted to learn calculus of variations but did not know which book is good.
 
I learned some concept of calculus of variations from my mechanics class
I study study it as a class however
 
user174558
I guess lots of people use Gelfand and Fomin.
 
Maybe some of the posts tagged book-recommendation+calculus-of-variations might help you with the choice.
 
yeah
 
user174558
9:14 PM
Thanks @MartinSleziak. Anyway, talking about books, I now think Enderton's books are the best for beginning logic.
 
I know my physics prof had a copy of gelfand and fomin.
 
user174558
The best Russian math book I have seen is Shilov's Elementary Real and Complex Analysis.
 
user174558
It has lots of things not found in a typical analysis book. It actually serves as a single variable calculus book as well!
 
A translation of the comment I added to the question I just posted:
"This question is inspired by my comment to a recent question, and my unwillingness to carry out the resulting algebra." = "I was bored enough to come up with this question, but too lazy to figure it out myself."
 
user174558
I forgot. How is your PhD coming along @Semiclassical?
 
9:19 PM
meh
 
@Mambo why f^2 and g^2 must be colinear ?
 
To the extent that progress is defined learning new things in research, great
 
user174558
Meh is a very interesting exclamation in English. It can mean so many things.
 
The equality is achieved only then @Vrouvrou
 
To the extent that it's defined by actual writing output and fulfillment of specific goals, not so good
 
user174558
9:21 PM
OK, the usual problem of input but no output.
 
@Semiclassical i promised myself i would write a section this week so when i meet my advisor i would be able to tell him i did something
 
right. circulation but no flux
 
in practice, i did some relevant reading. that counts! right?
 
@MikeMiller thumbsup
 
riiiiight?
 
9:22 PM
works for me
 
user174558
I think you shouldn't force yourself to write something. Then maybe after a long time, the writing will come.
 
here's the question, in case anyone wonders math.stackexchange.com/q/1773305/137524
 
user174558
Lots of unexplained downvotes these days.
 
so it is a particular case it is not true in general
@Mambo
 
It is Cauchy Schwartz inequality
 
9:25 PM
i think i need to just write more stuff period. not necessarily phd stuff
just to get myself back into the right mindset
 
i write those blog posts occasionally, which is helpful
 
it's a nice idea
 
i should start writing longer notes, i think, for myself or whoever
 
what platform do you use?
 
wordpress
 
9:26 PM
how easy was that to start up?
 
pretty easy, actually. there's a lot of stuff i should probably fix about it but haven't bothered yet
 
the only annoying thing was figuring out how to get tex to work, which in practice is "I write everything as $latex math [some technical garbage that says my tex should have the right font and color]$
 
what i've been meaning to put together, and what I guess would make a natural post
is an explanation for math people about some of my earlier work
 
i would read it
 
9:28 PM
i thought you might. mainly it'd be for you/Ted/Balarka
plus if I do that then someone can probably come along and tell me how it's all been done before :P
 
@Vrouvrou "f and g are trivial" ? What is that supposed to mean ?
 
i just looked at your MO question
really interesting q.
 
which? actually, i might just have the one
 
the only one
:p
 
ah, yeah
 
9:32 PM
not trivial i mean any function @Hippalectryon
 
i liked that one
 
@Vrouvrou $g$ is fixed. And $f$ can be any function in $X$ once $g$ is chosen. And so ?
 
the links to transcendence theory was a nice surprise
 
@Hippalectryon what do you mean by collinear ?
 
@Vrouvrou Proportional. Do you not know the equality condition for the Cauchy Schwarz inequality ?
Linearly dependent, if you prefer.
 
9:35 PM
@MikeMiller I usually leave MO alone, but that particular one did seem research-level.
 
@Hippalectryon and if f nd g are linearly indepensent what hapen ?
 
@Vrouvrou The you only have the inequality, not the equality. So it's not interesting for the $\sup$.
@Vrouvrou It's like saying : we're trying to find $\sup (h(a),a\in A)$. We know that $\forall a\in A,h(a)\le M$. Furthermore for a particular $a_0\in a$ (so, a special case), $h(a_0)=M$. Thus $\sup (h(a),a\in A)=M$.
 
9:52 PM
@Mambo Isn't this the definition?

for any $\epsilon>0$, there exists a $\delta>0$ such that if $|x-c|< \delta$, then $|f(x)-f(c)|< \epsilon$.
 
@Vrouvrou Anyhow I'm off to sleep.
 
10:12 PM
Quite idle today?
 
A little
 
10:36 PM
@Evinda $[a,b]$ is compact
 
10:53 PM
Can anyone recommend books on Geometric Algebras?
 
@MikeMiller Sorry! I fell ill within an hour after the conversation we had. But I did do some thinking. I have solutions to a couple of the things you asked, and have thoughts about the rest. Not sure if I should write down the solutions now or wait until I have thought more and have all the solutions.
@Semiclassical I'll definitely read your stuff.
 
I'm having trouble determining whether or not geometric algebras are a part of algebraic geometry.
But I hope they are.
 
names of branches of mathematics need not necessarily commute
 
I know that full well, it would just be nice.
One book, get both of them.
 
Taking a quick look at the wikipedia page, I am skeptic whether there's any immediate connection (I know a bit of algebraic geometry).
 
10:57 PM
Lang's Algebra has information about both.
AFAIK its the only algebra book which develops multilinear algebra carefully. I'm sure some Diff. geo. books do as well, but I haven't read any of those.
 
Hmm. How in-depth does it get on geometric algebras? I'm starting to find a lot of connections between some groups in my work and noticing how much everything acts like Rotors and Blades.
 
I think Dummit-Foote does chapters on multilinear algebra. But I have never read it carefully enough because I have not needed it so far.
 
Actually I dont know what geometric algebras are.
 

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