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12:07 AM
what are the singular points for $\frac{1}{1+z^4}$?
 
 
1 hour later…
1:14 AM
0
Q: Examples of compactly supported exact differential forms

Juan Sebastian LozanoI am having some trouble finding any examples of compactly supported exact differential forms on $\mathbb{R}^n$. I have found $e^{\frac{1}{x^2 -1}}$ when taken to be zero everywhere except on the interval $(-1,1)$. What are some other examples?

 
@BalarkaSen today was interesting
 
@JuanSebastianLozano I don't know why you think compactly supported exact forms are so rare. I mean suppose you look at some smooth compactly supported function $f$ (there are a bunch of those). Then $\nabla f$ will also be compactly supported, not? That gives you a compactly supported exact 1-form on $\Bbb R^n$.
Namely, $df$.
 
@BalarkaSen I don't think they're rare, I'm just ignorant of them
 
I was grilled for hours
 
@ForeverMozart Ah, really? What's cookin'?
 
1:20 AM
me
2
 
Eh?
 
tried to poke holes in my arguments
 
@JuanSebastianLozano I just gave you an argument which proves that if you know $N$ many compactly supported functions, you also know at least $N$ many compactly supported exact 1-forms.
 
What were you arguing
 
$N$ is any cardinal number.
 
1:22 AM
that ZFC is inconsistent
 
@ForeverMozart Did you find any?
 
no not really, I just have to be more careful
/convincing
 
Yeah, I guess I didn't think about it like that, but I also don't exactly know many compactly supported functions.
 
You thought you had a proof that ZFC was inconsistent??
 
no thats just a joke
 
1:23 AM
Like I told @MikeMiller - I only know one compactly supported function on $\mathbb{R}^n$.
 
although, if what I am trying to do is BS...
 
@Juan If $f$ is a compactly supported function (you know one, don't you? $\exp(-1/(1-x^2))$ like you said), then so is $\partial f/\partial x_i$. Derivate ad infinitum to get infinitely many compactly supported functions.
 
see, if someone find a problem with your arguments, you just say, "well, that proves ZFC is inconsistent"
 
That's just gonna get rational functions times the original thing, no? @BalarkaSen
 
who are you going to believe, me or those crackpots Zermelo and Frankel
 
1:25 AM
Depends on $f$.
But you have infinitely many of those now.
 
Those crackpots Zermelo, Frenkel, and C.
 
I think C was also due to Zermelo
but it came after the others
 
Okay, well, I need a couple different classes of functions, so that one can be pathological enough to be a counterexample.
 
fair enough. i don't know too many bump functions to be honest. but i am sure you can google search them up.
most of my smooth functions are analytic.
 
That's why I asked that question, because google didn't help me too much.
 
1:30 AM
I am just merely saying that your question is answered by getting an answer to a question asking for a list of compactly supported functions.
Did you google for examples of bump functions? I am pretty, pretty sure there are a lot of them out there.
 
Those crackpots Zermelo, Frenkel, +., B., P., and I., if that is their real names
 
So, what's next?
 
Is that directed at me?
 
It's directed to everyone :)
 
1:47 AM
Hm... Well it seems @Forever wants to prove ZFC inconsistent, we could try that :P
 
Nah, not a fan of set theory.
 
As far as me, I've given up trying to prove anything about Mike's construction.
 
I'll think about it tomorrow.
i am waiting for a movie which has released relatively recently but it's not in the market yet. cruds.
 
Do you know much about homological algebra?
What movie?
 
@JuanSebastianLozano I know a little.
captain america, what else? :)
 
1:59 AM
evening, chat
 
Do you think it is useful for understanding Alg. Top. much?

Ah, I can't say that I've seen it.
@Semiclassical good evening.
(I know it is designed to do just that, but I mean, like should I learn it before proceeding with hatcher?)
 
No, not really.
I think the order should go the other way actually. Learn algebraic topology, gather some intuition, then learn homological algebra.
 
Hm... I see. What sort of things is it useful for?
 
I don't know that stuff beyond the basics but I can give you a relatively easy example.
If you have a chain complex, you can dualize that to get a cochain complex.
If you compute the homology $H_\bullet$ of the chain complex and the homology of the cochain complex aka cohomology $H^\bullet$ of the chain complex, it is natural to ask for what's the relation between $H^\bullet$ and $\hom(H_\bullet, \Bbb Z)$ is.
The universal coefficient theorem tells you $H^\bullet$ is essentially an extension of $\hom(H_\bullet, \Bbb Z)$ by a subgroup involving homology of one less degree. That subgroup is described in terms of the $\text{Ext}$ group.
Homological algebra helps you define and compute $\text{Ext}$. That in turn helps in concrete computations in topology.
So that's an example.
 
2:47 AM
Hi,everyone, recently I have a question about the interval, the detail as follows:
 
2:58 AM
@BalarkaSen that's amazing, actually. It is something that I kind of had in the back of my mind from seeing these relationships and their similarity to Linear Algebra, where I learned about dualizing and the relationship between $hom(v,f)$ and $v$ and so on, but I guess that shows me how useful those realionships are.
Do you know a good place to learn homological Algebra?
 
@JuanSebastianLozano It's not very deep, just shows how homology of dual chain complexes are related.
@JuanSebastianLozano I don't. Weibel is standard reference, but I haven't read it.
I picked up the homological algebra I know in a scattered way from different places.
alright, I gotta sleep. byes.
 
@MikeMiller saw this lately, thought you'd appreciate it as well: twogag.com/archives/3672
 
 
2 hours later…
4:53 AM
@Semiclassical "heh" :/
 
aha, that reminds me I had originally planned to use guy for another avator.
 
5:32 AM
guy who
 
that's her name, guy
 
that's new to me
oh, you mean the character in the comic, not the major
 
user174558
@anon Hi B, LOL.
 
user174558
I love the Residential Evil movies. I watched all 5 of them.
 
user174558
@huy I now have a list of 24 holy books, but I won't list them here.
 
Huy
5:46 AM
@WillHunting: that's like saying you have a very elegant proof of a theorem but won't write it down (because the space available is too small for it)
 
user174558
Residential Evil 6 will be released next year. Be sure to watch all 6 then.
 
@WillHunting Aren't they called Resident Evil?
(and weren't those computer games?)
 
user174558
@TobiasKildetoft Yes. They are all called Resident Evil followed by a subtitle. It is a computer game but it generated a series of movies based loosely on the game.
 
Wow, that many movies based on it. That's a lot.
 
user174558
There are many extremely long movie series.
 
user174558
5:56 AM
Of course, the length depends on what you consider to be in the series.
 
user174558
Amazingly, the actress in Resident Evil seems to never get old. I wonder what skincare products she uses. I should get some for my mum, lol.
 
Huy
6:14 AM
Botox
 
6:41 AM
@Hippalectryon i still have a problem
 
Nice, latest paper went on arXiv today. We managed to do things way more generally than we had expected, leaving only 3 possible exceptions where we had originally not even expected to be able to do more than a few special cases.
 
@TobiasKildetoft hello, can you help me for this exercise math.stackexchange.com/questions/1771892/…
 
@Vrouvrou Sorry, too early for norms
 
 
1 hour later…
8:12 AM
anyone know how to change profile picture?
 
Huy
yes
 
how?
cuz I tried to change it but it reverts back
 
by "reverts back" do you mean it has yet to change in some places?
 
like I don't see my new picture
it changes back to this fairy
 
that's because it takes time to update
when you say it "changes back," does that mean it first does show your new picture, then switches back to the old?
 
8:16 AM
ya
 
well, not familiar with that
 
-_- I just want to be Bulbasaur for once
wow I saw that there is another button to select -_-! SAve for this community
I forgot to click that
 
8:34 AM
@Vrouvrou What is it ?
 
meh bulbasaur
 
9:02 AM
heya
 
user174558
@N3buchadnezzar No meat, no pudding.
 
9:33 AM
Has there been any studies on the probability of n dices with m sides beating x dices with y sides?
 
@N3buchadnezzar I don't know, but that doesn't sound too hard
 
I was able to program it quite easilly, but was wondering if there were a more mathematical approach
I just found the probability distributions and then the joint distribution
 
9:55 AM
@N3buchadnezzar ._. it's actually least easy that I thought if you stay with a discrete approach, because you need to make a bunch of various cases
 
10:11 AM
@Hippalectryon heya
 
@Agawa001 :D
 
@usukidoll It's working now
 
11:03 AM
Is 'dot', as in 'The dot product' a verb?
 
I don't think so
 
Okay.
 
Guys, anybody has a clue what spt(f) could mean? For a function $f:\mathbb{R^n} \rightarrow \mathbb{R}$, it will apparently give some sort of subset of the domain of $f$.
 
hello,
one quick question:
If all roots of a cubic polynomial are distinct and real then how can we say $f(a)f(b)<0$ , where $a,b$ are two roots of $f'(x)=0$
 
@Jake1234 context?
 
11:14 AM
@ramsay Goes something like: the slope at the roots is nonzero. So, between the largest and smallest roots, the max is positive and the min is negative.
 
@Jake1234 I guess spt$ (f) = $ supp$ (f) = closure\{x \in \Bbb R^n : f(x) \neq 0\}$.
 
@ramsay is there any condition about monotonicity
 
It's used in a lemma called "decomposition of 1" - let $\epsilon \in \mathbb{R}$, there exist functions $f_j$ from $\mathbb{R^n}$ to $\mathbb{R}$, $j \in \mathbb{N}$, that are non-negative, it's partial derivatives are continuous on the domain, $ diam (spt($f$)) < \epsilon$,
and for every $x \in \mathbb{R^n}$ the sum of $f_j(x)$ across $j \in \mathbb{N}$ is equal to $1$, and there exists a neightborhood $U$ of $x$, such that the set $\{j \in \mathbb{N} : spt(f_j) \cap U = \varnothing \}$ , is finite
 
that sounds like partition of unity
so, yes, my guess would be support
 
ok, thanks guys
 
11:18 AM
@Jake1234 What theorem are you going to prove after this?
 
@KarlKronenfeld ,@DeNiSkA there is a graph given to illustrate and in that maxima and minima are opposite in signs and they are marked as $a,b$
 
Hello @robjohn

Did you see my question?
 
I'm not really sure Mambo, I wasn't at the last few lectures... There's Gauss' divergence theorem, then there's a lot of lemmas (not sure if these lemmas are used for it though), then there's Green's theorem
 
You're going to prove the Stokes' theorem.
 
Yeah, that's there too, a few theorems later.
 
@Hippalectryon Salut
 
@BalarkaSen in amazement you are going to watch captain America ??
Anyways @Balarka do you have a copy if nivan Zuckerman.... I have a few questions I want to ask you in it. I am on my phone so I cannot write stuff in latex
 
11:48 AM
@JeSuis \o/ Salut
 
@Hippalectryon Comment vas-tu ? Si tu as un peu de temps, j'ai le problème de Cauchy suivant $y'=f(y)$ avec $y(0)=y_0$, je suppose que $f$ est C^1 et bornée de $\Bbb{R}$ dans $\Bbb{R}$ et $f(y_0)>0$. La question est de montrer que $y(t)$ tend vers $\inf \{z>y_0: f(z)=0\}$.
(en $+\infty$)
 
@Albas ofc
 
I know that the average of $3$ numbers is $88$ and the number is between $0$ and $100$. I need to find a new number that with it, the average will be $90$. This should be very easy but I don't find a way to solve it in a fast way.
 
@Albas I have the copy somewhere.
 
$y$ est donc strictement croissante et converge normalement vers le sup (y(t)) pour $t\in I$ l'intervalle solution
 
11:54 AM
I am in the first chapter... Primes. There is a question on the value the sum of reciprocal of all primes less than a number. Q53 Pg34
 
@JeSuis Ca va :D pourquoi est-ce que $y$ est croissante ?
 
Mhm, I remember it.
 
I tried to use the approximation of $\pi(x)$
 
Don't: that's not the point.
You don't need PNT to prove it.
 
What should I use then?
 
11:56 AM
your brain
 
Obviously but any hint would be helpful
 
put yourself in the shoes of someone who's learning from N-V. he won't know the PNT.
 
@Hippalectryon Car sinon le TVI nous donne l'annulation en un point et le théorème de Cauchy (unicité) nous donne que la solution est la solution nulle.
 
@Albas I'll have to have a look at the exercise to tell you a hint.
 
Okay. Let me try it once again without using PNT this time
 
11:58 AM
@Albas OK, I just opened the book.
Use the fact that $\pi(x+1) - \pi(x)$ determines if $x$ is prime or not.
 
Okay...
 
Also note that the exercise is using this exercise to prove a weaker version of the PNT. Using PNT to do it would be scandalous.
 
@JeSuis Pourquoi est-ce que $y=0$ est solution ?
 
elle ne l'est pas, on suppose que $f(y_0)>0.$
 
Alors comment Cauchy peut-il affirmer que la solution est nulle ?
 
12:08 PM
Je ne comprends ta question, avec les hypothèses données, alors toute solution est globale et strictement croissante.
 
Salut @JeSuis
 
Ou alors c'est mon raisonnement pour le strictement croissante qui est mauvais ?
@Evinda Hi
 
Comment ca va? @JeSuis
 
@Evinda très bien et toi ?
 
C'est peut-être tout bête, mais je ne vois pas pourquoi c'est strictement croissant. Si on suppose l'inverse, alors en effet par le TVI on a un point $x$ tel que $y'(x)=0$. Q'est-ce qu'on en déduit ?
 
12:10 PM
Bien :) @JeSuis
 
@Hippalectryon si deux solution coincident en un point de l'intervalle "solution" avec $f$ localement lipschitzienne alors elles coincident partout sur l'intervalle.
 
Et quelle est la seconde solution ici ? Autrement dit, où est la contradiction ?
 
@Hippalectryon la contradiction vient du fait que si j'ai une solution qui s'annule alors l'unicité me dit que la solution est identiquement nulle, c'est impossible car on demande d'avoir $f(y_0)>0$
 
Mais là c'est $y'$ qui s'annule pas $y$ non ?
 
@Hippalectryon ah tu veux dire que je suppose implicitement que la fonction nulle est solution
 
12:23 PM
Oui
 
@Hippalectryon c'est fort probable :D
Mais la solution ne peut passer par $0$, n'est-ce pas ?
 
Si $f$ est quelconque (enfin, lipschitzienne) alors je ne vois pas pourquoi
En effet, si $y$ est solution pour $y'=f(y)$ alors $z=y+1$ est solution pour $z'=g(z),g=f-1$
Donc a priori $f$ passe par 0 sans problème
 
@Hippalectryon hm donc j'ai un big problème!( petit hs : tes concours alors???)
 
@JeSuis Mines/Centrale tranquille, les X/ENS ça allait à part la Chimie, j'espère que ça ne va pas me jouer de mauvais tours
 
c-a-d ?
tant mieux pour le reste!
 
12:31 PM
@BalarkaSen is it the right way if I convert the integral into a sum and then use your hint?
 
@JeSuis Pour ULM en gros on a trois épreuves qui comptent (Maths, Phys, Chem) donc a voir une note moyenne en chimie ça peut coûter cher
@JeSuis On avait fait la quasi intégralité des sujets de Physique 1 & 2 des Mines en classe :P
 
@Hippalectryon ah d'accord, espérons que non, c'est qd les résultats ?
Carrément, c'était un thème classique ?
 
@JeSuis Tout début juin je crois. Et je suis série 1 à l'X pour les oraux
 
@Hippalectryon Ca devrait aller si ca c'est aussi bien passé que tu le dis :)
 
donc tu veux faire l'X ou l'ENS ?
 
12:33 PM
@JeSuis Bah avec les nouveaux programmes, ça tape dans le grand classique. C'était de la diffusion thermique genre effect de peau avec de la génération de chaleur par radioactivité suivi de méca Q bateau (effet tunnel, radioactivité alpha) pour phys 2. Phys 1 c'était d'abord des équations de sup suivies d'ondes dans les milieux matériels
 
Je connais des gens qui ont eu des notes bien inférieures à 10 dans certaine matière et qui y sont :)
 
@JeSuis ENS :DDDDD
@Shadock J'espère :-)
 
@Albas What integral? I mean you should start with $\sum 1/p$ and use my hint and arrive at that expression.
 
@Hippalectryon au pire tu feras 7/2
 
@Shadock aaaaaaaaaaaah
 
12:36 PM
@Hippalectryon tant mieux alors! c'est cool la physique, on en fait très peu en maths... ENS Ulm je suppose :D
 
@JeSuis C'est l'objectif :-) là je suis en train de faire (commencer ? :D) mon TIPE ._.
 
@Hippalectryon c'est assez merdique ce truc non ?
 
@JeSuis totalement nul
 
Eh benh moi mon TIPE il était fini en Janvier
 
@Shadock MP ? PC ? PSI ? :)
 
12:38 PM
Va falloir se mettre au boulot lol
Elève ingénieur
Mais je viens de PC*
 
@Evinda no. which question?
 
@Shadock J'ai découvert en 3/2 que tout l'effort que tu passe à bien faire un TIPE paye assez peu en fait. Et que le faire (bien) rapidement ça donne le même résultat (en physique en tout cas; en chimie il y a des manips qui demandent du temps)
 
T'es dans quelle école ?
 
J'ai eu 17 aux deux :)
Je suis à CPE Lyon
 
CPE ?
 
12:41 PM
Chimie Physique Electronique
L'école aux trois prix nobel pour les intimes
 
et c'est pour faire un projet spécifique ou non ?
 
Je veux faire du génie des procédés, travailler sur des installations à échelle industrielle.
Parallèlement à ça je fais la L3 de physique pour le fun
 
@Shadock c'est cool tout ça :D
 
Hi @AkivaWeinberger
 
@robjohn I want to show the embedding $W^{1,p}(0,1) \subset C^0 [0,1]$.

So we pick a $u \in W^{1,p}(0,1)$ and want to show that $u \in C^0 [0,1]$.

Let $x_n \to x$. We want to show that $u(x_n) \to u(x)$.

Since $u \in W^{1,p}(0,1)$ we have that $u \in L_p$ and $u' \in L_p$.

And you told me to use the fact that $u(x+h)-u(x)=\int_{x}^{x+h} u'(t) dt$.

We know that a function $f$ is continuous in $x_0$ if $\forall \epsilon>0 \exists \delta>0$ such that $\forall y \in [x,x+h]$ with $|y-x_0|< \delta$ it holds that $|f(y)-f(x_0)|< \epsilon$.
 
12:47 PM
Ouais moi j'adore !
J'ai un cours de thermodynamique de 400 pages et je le connais presque par coeur :D
Je suis un petit fou :p
 
@Shadock e_e
 
avec un mot par page ? :D
 
Non non ^^
Après quand tu comprends ce que tu fais c'est plus facile
Bon allez il faut que j'aille travailler !
A plus
 
bon travail!
 
12:53 PM
@BalarkaSen Nomoshkar
 
@Hippalectryon J'ai trouvé plus fort si on prend (ouf!!) une fonction $f:I\to\Bbb{R}$ continue alors toute solution de y'=f(y) est monotone
 
@Akiva What's up?
 
@JeSuis Ah, ça vient d'où ?
 
X/ENS analyse 3
 
Oui ._. mais je veux dire, comment on le montre ?
 
12:59 PM
par l'absurde, tu supposes $y$ non monotone, donc c'est à dire qu'il existe trois réels sur l'intervalle solution $I'$ tels que $a<b<c$ et que $y(b)$ est 1) y(b)>y(a) et y(b)>y(c) 2)y(b)<y(a) et y(b)<y(c)
pour chaque cas tu peux supposer, par le TVI blabla, que y(a)=y(c).
Ensuite tu prends une primitive de $f$ notée $F$,tu as $(F\circ y)'=f(y)y'=y'^2$
et le reste découle du fait qu'un final $y'^2=0$ sur [a,c] donc constante, absurde car $y(b)\ne y(a)$
 
Pourquoi est-ce que $y'^2=0$ sur [a,c] ?
 
le fonction $F\circ y$ est constante
sur [a,c]
 
Pourquoi ?
 
car $y(a)=y(c)$
 
En quoi est-ce que ça nous dit que $\forall a<x<c,F(y(x))=F(y(a))$ ?
 
1:08 PM
Une fonction continue croissante qui vaut la même chose aux extrémités, tu me testes ? :P
 
._. ah oui bien sûr. J'avais pas remarqué que $F(y)$ était croissante facepalm
 
Oui j'ai mal rédigé!
Il fait beau, je vais sortir en ville, à plus tard @Hippalectryon et bon travail!
 
@JeSuis Bonne aprem :-)
 
@BalarkaSen what have you learned since yesterday?
 
1:52 PM
@MikeMiller Sorry, I was away. So, what have I learnt?
I suppose I do have an interesting thing to say.
 
omg whole page is taken over by frenchies
 
@Agawa001 Révolution!
 
Suppose I have some parametrized surface $S$ in $\Bbb R^3$, with parametrization $g : U \subset \Bbb R^2 \to \Bbb R^3$.
 
révoltE
 
For any $p \in S$, $T_pS$ has a canonical choice of basis $\{\partial g/\partial x, \partial g/\partial y\}$. I want to know the area of the parallelogram spanned by $\partial g/\partial x$ and $\partial g/\partial y$ in $\Bbb R^3$.
This is given by the Gram's formula: if $u, v$ are two vectors in $\Bbb R^n$ ($\Bbb R^n$ is equipped with the dot product here), take the orthogonal complement of the span of $\{u, v\}$. Choose an orthogonal basis of that, say $v_3, \cdots, v_n$. Then $\text{det}(u, v, v_3, \cdots, v_n)$ is the volume of the parallelopiped spanned by these, which is the same as the area of the parallelogram spanned by $u, v$ since $v_i$'s are all orthogonal to $u, v$.
But if $A = [u, v, v_3, \cdots, v_n]$, $\text{det}(A^2) = \text{det}(A^{\mathsf{T}}A)$ which is the determinant of the block matrix consisting of 4 blocks, with the first diagonal block $[u \cdot u, u \cdot v; v \cdot u, v \cdot v]$, the second diagonal block identity, and the rest of the blocks $0$. So $\text{det}(A)$ is $\sqrt{|u \cdot u, u \cdot v; v \cdot u, v \cdot v|}$.
So area of the parallelogram spanned by $\partial g/\partial x, \partial g/\partial y$ is $\sqrt{EG - F^2}$ where $E = \|\partial g/\partial x\|^2, G = \partial g/\partial x \cdot \partial g/\partial y$ and $F = \|\partial g/\partial y\|^2$. As a corollary area of the surface $S$ is $\int_U \sqrt{EG - F^2} dA_{xy}$.
@MikeMiller Not sure if you're listening, thus not sure if I should continue.
 
2:11 PM
OK. Why do I care?
 
Right, so an interesting question would be how much about $S$ and about the embedding and about $\Bbb R^n$ did we actually need to define "area of $S$"?
We see that Gram's formula was an essential tool in this. To use the Gram's formula we needed an inner product on $\Bbb R^n$ to begin with, namely, a dot product.
In particular did we actually need dot product on the $\Bbb R^n$ my surface is embedded in? No, we just need a inner product on $T_pS$ for each $p$ to compute the area of the parallelogram given by $\partial g/\partial x_1(p), \partial g/\partial x_2(p)$. To do this for each $p$ in a consistent manner we need a smoothly varying inner product.
aka a Riemannian metric. Let's try it out.
 
Do you see what you're doing in fancy differential forms language?
 
Yes, I am choosing a canonical volume form.
 
That's not really differential forms language. You just said the final result is a volume form on the surface, which I agree with.
 
I suppose you're asking for what we're doing in the "differential forms as sections of bundle" language?
 
2:21 PM
No. Don't worry about it, go ahead.
 
Alright, ok. So $M$ be a smooth manifold. If I choose some top dimensional form, $\omega$, on $M$, I can define the volume of $M$ with respect to that form as $\int_M 1 \omega$.
If I have a Riemannian metric $g$ on $M$, I can choose a "canonical volume form", by analogizing what we did for a surface above.
 
Oh, so you're just trying to understand how to get volumes of manifolds, not volumes of hypersurfaces.
 
Without using Taylor’s Theorem show similarly that if $f$ is twice continuously differentiable in a neighbourhood of $x_0$ then $f$ can be written in the form: $f(x)=f(x_0)+f'(x_0)(x-x_0)+\frac{\psi(x)}{2}(x-x_0)^2$ where $\psi$ is continuous at $x_0$ and $\psi(x_0) = f′′(x_0)$.
 
Yeah. What do you mean by volumes of hypersurfaces?
 
I am not sure where the factor of 0.5 comes in
 
2:27 PM
What could I possibly mean?
 
Volume of codimension one submanifolds of a given manifold, I suppose. But since the submanifold gets a natural Riemannian metric from the top, we can just do the same computation, which is why I am confused by what you mean because I don't see why it's going to be distinct from getting volume of manifolds.
 
Sure, that's more or less the same thing if you have a Riemannian metric on the total space, which is of course a lot more structure than just a volume form.
I just didn't realize what you were trying to do.
Note that you never actually needed Gram's formula to define the top form on your surface...
 
Ah, I see. So you're asking for volume of the codimension one submanifold when the total manifold is only given a choice of volume form.
 
I defined $\psi(x)=\left\{\begin{matrix}

\frac{f'(x)-f'(x_0)}{x-x_0}, \: x\neq x_0 \\

f''(x_0),\: x=x_0

\end{matrix}\right.$ And then showed that it is continuous at $x_0$, (I don't think I needed L'Hopital but the Questions says I might need it.) Then I rearranged and subbed in $f'(x) =\frac{f(x)-f(x_0)}{x-x_0}$
But I don't get a value of a half
 
@MikeMiller Right, for my surface one just needs the normals. Then I can define the area 2-form on the surface by $n_3 dx \wedge dy - n_2 dx \wedge dz + n_1 dy \wedge dz$.
And then integrate that.
 
2:33 PM
@Balarka: I wasn't really asking anything, just trying to understand what you were saying.
Your newest formula still depends on an embedding in $\Bbb R^3$. You seemed to imply you could do it for an arbitrary Riemannian manifold.
 
Right, yeah, I got distracted. So, let me finish what I was trying to say.
 
Ah, but you are taking your time, and I am an impatient brute.
 
If $(M, g)$ is a Riemannian manifold, then I can define the volume form on $M$ in local coordinates by $\sqrt{|g_{ij}|} dx_1 \wedge \cdots \wedge dx_n$.
Ah, I have to show it's independent of the charts on $M$ we choose, so typing it takes some time.
 
Don't worry about such details right now.
I don't really like your definition, though it's perfectly correct. Can you give me a coordinate free one by specifying what it does to tangent vectors?
 
The idea is that if $f : V \to U$ is some diffeomorphism with $x_i = f_i(y_1, \cdots, y_n)$ then $dx_1 \wedge \cdots \wedge dx_n = |Df| dy_1 \wedge \cdots \wedge dy_n$ and $g_{ij}$ w.r.t. the new coordinates is $(Df) (g_{ij}) (Df)^T$. Straightforward calculation shows that my volume form leaves unchanged.
@MikeMiller Well, it eats the orthonormal basis of $T_pM$ and spits out the volume of the box spanned by them. That much is clear by Gram's formula.
 
2:45 PM
Btw, "Riemannian manifold" here needs an extra adjective.
 
morning
 
@BalarkaSen What does "the volume of the box they span" mean?
 
Well, $\sqrt{|g_{ij}|}$, so what I say is tautological anyway.
If I had to guess I'd say in general the form eats a bunch of tangent vectors at $p$, orthonormalizes it, and computes the volume of the box.
 
I don't understand the statement.
It's probably what I'm looking for, but maybe you could explain it more clearly.
 

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