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4:01 PM
hi alex
 
@Obliv ow. that hurts my brain to even look at.
 
How does one know the amount of 3-cycles, 2-cycles, etc. in $S_3$ or $S_4$, so on?
oh wait I see. There are $n$ amount of $n$-cycles, $n-1$ amount of $n-1$-cycles, etc right?
 
No, I don't think so.
In $S_3$ for instance, there are 3 two-cycles.
 
also, is there a way to write every permutation of $S_n$ in terms of only 1 cycle, instead of a product of cycles? Like $S_n = \{(...),(...),...\}$ ?
nvm I don't think so
 
Oh hi Eric
 
4:14 PM
yo!
 
How's it going?
 
long time no see
Well :D
I'm out of school
and I'm blogging like a madman :P
 
Hi Eric
 
^.^
 
I'm out of school
 
4:15 PM
I have a question :)
 
and busy doing who knows what
Shoot, evinda.
 
Why? :(
 
... I mean shoot as in fire away. Not cursing.
 
4:16 PM
You need a comma in there, Duck :P
 
If $u \in W^{3,p}(\mathbb{R}^{+})$ I want to contruct the reflection $Eu$ of $u$ in $\mathbb{R}$ such that $Eu \in W^{3,p}(\mathbb{R})$.

How could we construct this?
 
yick sobolev spaces
 
My mind just liquified
Not to mention the fact that I don't see Mathjax formatted on this device in chat
 
You don't like them?
 
I assume they are hard to work with?
 
4:18 PM
Yes, they are
 
Evinda, what's the issue with just doing something very stupid, like
 
Spaces as in linear algebra spaces?
 
$Eu(-x)=-u(x)$
Yes, Duck, they are a certain type of vector space.
Does this not land in $W^{3,p}$ most of the time?
Or do you mean something more specific by "reflection"?
 
You mean this : $Eu(x)=\left\{\begin{matrix}
-u(-x) &, x \geq 0 \\
-u(x) &, x<0
\end{matrix}\right.$ ?
I mean a catoptric extension
 
4:22 PM
That looks like my idea but the details are really far off.
$Eu(x)=\left\{\begin{matrix}
u(x) &, x \geq 0 \\
-u(-x) &, x<0
\end{matrix}\right.$
 
The only concern is that $Eu$ is not $W^{3,p}$ near the origin.
 
Ok, I will check if it belongs to $W^{3,p}(\mathbb{R})$.
 
But Mike, we already know u is W^{3,p} near the origin, so shouldn't we be okay?
 
Is it safe to say the largest order of any element in $S_5$ is 6? Since, the largest length cycles of a product of disjoint cycles is 3 and 2, the lcm of which is 6. The 5-cycle has order 5.
 
Yep, obliv.
 
4:24 PM
okay so I can find an upper bound to the order of the elements then. Still annoying to calculate all of the orders of all of the elements :\
 
I mean, it's annoying to even write down all the elements :P
Oh, you just want the orders.
 
yeah I have to do this for $S_4$ which is 24 elements
 
@EricStucky We know that from one side. To see what could go wrong, take $u(x) = x^2$. Then $Eu$ is $x|x|$, whose derivatives are $|x|$, $\text{sign}(x)$, and then a delta function.
 
I think unless I learn something from this exercise I will just skip it
 
Well, take that near zero. Bump it to be zero at infinity.
 
4:26 PM
In order to deduce if it belongs there, don't we check if it holds $\langle Eu, \phi' \rangle=-\langle (Eu)', \phi \rangle ,\langle Eu, \phi'' \rangle=\langle (Eu)'', \phi \rangle, \langle Eu, \phi''' \rangle=-\langle (Eu)''', \phi \rangle $ ?
 
Good morning friends :) I was wondering if you guys could point me to any good resources regarding characteristic polynomials' relationship with eigenvalues.
 
Ah, v. nice
 
So your construction spits something out that $W^{2,p}$ in this case.
 
I'm taking a linear algebra course and it seems like the textbook isn't explaining it very well.
 
Rayny: what book are you using?
 
4:27 PM
@EricStucky Hi Eric, I'm using "Linear Algebra: 5th edition" by Otto Bretscher
I was doing their textbook problems and I was confused as to how to prove the characteristic polynomials between 2 similar matrices are the same - and that's when I realized my fundamentals for this idea isn't very strong
 
Okay, so for you a characteristic polynomial is $\det(\lambda I - A)$, probably.
 
Yup - that's how they described it. And since they didn't go over the fact(yet) that AS = SV diagonalization where S = eigenvectors and V = eigenbasis, I can't really find a way to explain it.
 
@MikeMiller You mean that it does not hold that $\langle Eu, \phi'' \rangle=\langle (Eu)'', \phi \rangle$ ?
 
Rayny: Yeah, so for that problem you can just smash the heck out of it, which may be what was intended.
But, more generally
 
What do you mean?
 
4:32 PM
That's a completely formal property. You always have that in the sense of distributions. But $(Ex^2)'''$ is a distribution with no representation as an $L^p$ function, at least for the construction of $E$ we gave.
 
@EricStucky "Smash the heck out of it" - you mean just take a 2x2 and say "After computing this matrix of variables S^-1 * A * S, we can see that the characteristic polynomial's the same" after some computation using arbitrary variables?
 
Yeah. You can be a little less terrible than that by showing chi(A) = x^2 - (trA)x + (detA) and then showing those coefficients are invariant under similarities.
But the idea is the same ofc.
 
If we would want that $ Eu \in \in C^1(\mathbb{R}) $ we would pick:

$ Eu(x)=\left\{\begin{matrix}
u(x) &, x \geq 0 \\
-3u(-x)+4u\left(-\frac{x}{2} \right ) &, x \leq 0
\end{matrix}\right. $


Can we pick a similar one in this case?
 
Rayny: I really started to appreciate eigenstuff when I read Axler
 
@EricStucky chi? What's that function? And darn, that's a lot of smashing - no me gusta but I guess it will suffice.
 
4:34 PM
chi = char poly
 
Ah okay - gotcha. By the way, is the trace/det as coefficients thing true after you generalize it to nxn square matrices?
 
I'm not sure if the book is free, but he also has this document which gets around to char poly by section 5.
 
& Axler? I'm a Computer Science major currently and I think linear algebra is super important - I'm down to find more resources :)
 
It's true that tr and det show up as coefficients; in the x^{n-1} and constant terms iirc.
Axler's Linear Algebra Done Right
He has some strong opinions ;)
 
Ah interesting :) In the first page 1-5th sentences he just dissed my textbook's way of teaching already
I can see how he has "strong opinions" haha
 
4:37 PM
@OneRaynyDay In which subject do you need it?
 
It's a good book, though not necessarily one I pedagogically agree with. I like to encourage students to read Axler's "Linear algebra done right" along with Treil's "Linear algebra done wrong".
2
 
@Evinda need linear algebra in computer science you mean?
 
Yes
 
It's used in vectorizing operations because of cache coherence and speed-ups. I'm sure you all know about least-squares and universal approximators and some data refinement steps with principal component analysis with SVD
 
I use it also in Coding theory :) @OneRaynyDay
 
4:39 PM
Vectors in coding theory?
where
 
In general it's useful in the data science field mostly, but it also does wonders for optimizing a function - in fact I experienced a 200x speedup in writing a vectorized matrix multiplication in C vs naïve implementation in python
 
In general linear algebra. The words of a code are vectors. @OneRaynyDay
 
Coding theory? What's that?
 
Is that encryprion?
ick
 
encryption, decryption and so on
 
4:41 PM
(I have failed to follow the conversation, whoops)
 
I like number theory stuff so maybe encryption would appeal
i just instinctively shy away from it though
 
Yes, I think you will like it
 
Interesting - I've been meaning to learn that stuff for a while on Coursera or some MOOC(since our uni doesn't offer a course like that until upper div).
 
ill take a look at it
i also really enjoyed linear algebra
 
4:42 PM
So what's now with the reflection? Do you have an idea? :D @MikeMiller Eric
 
Thanks for the enlightening conversation guys :) I have to go to my linear algebra class now actually haha
 
(chewed through the entire book five weeks into the semester, lol)
 
:P
cya Rayny
 
Yep - cya Eric! Bye everyone, I'll chat you guys up later today
 
See you
 
4:42 PM
OneRay don't forget about determinants
 
Or, do forget about determinants
Your call :P
 
@TheGreatDuck Aye Aye
 
They are very important
if I understand rigjt, didn't linear a
gevra originate with determinants?
 
@EricStucky According to the textbook you linked - they're poorly motivated so I suppose I can understand why you say that haha
 
Dang I butchered that
 
4:43 PM
Duck, the origins of linear algebra are really a tremendous mess.
Matrix theory was certainly strongly pulled along by determinants, historically.
 
user147690
What's going on in 'ere ey
 
yelling about linear algebra, mostly
 
user147690
That's often fun :P
 
@AlexClark Can I ask you some questions about Dynkin diagrams?
 
user147690
4:48 PM
@MikeMiller Sure. Hopefully I can help
 
So I have a finite group and a representation $\varphi: \Gamma \to SU(2)$. (It's injective, if that matters.) What does it mean to talk about the Dynkin diagram of this representation? What is a root system of this representation?
 
Interesting
 
Actually, Cramer's rule is even older than that: 1750.
 
Oh btw. I posted a question/answer pair and I want to make sure the whole thing is easily understood and not confusing
0
Q: How does this faulty system of integration change the nature of jump discontinuity?

TheGreatDuckLet's define a sort of faulty integral. For the purposes of this question we shall assume that this is the regular integral. This integral integrates all functions properly however it's gets confused when it sees floor. It has a delusion that floor is an arbitrary constant and just holds it fixed...

 
Yeah I've been reading that
 
4:50 PM
:p
I had a feeling you were
 
what happens to the prime factorization of a number when you add 1 to it?
 
None of the factors are shared
 
user147690
@MikeMiller What is SU(2), it is a Lie group? Do you know the associated Lie algebra?
 
Obliv: If I could answer that question I wouldn't be sitting around on MSE chat :P
 
4:51 PM
*except 1
 
ah true, since no number can divide both $n$ and $n + 1$
why is that @eric
 
im pretty sure it's a thereom used in proving that the sequence of primes is infinite
take a prime n
 
yeah I remember using that for the proof in one of the exercises in my book
 
n! > n
 
@AlexClark The special unitary group. It's one of the classical Lie groups. It's 3-dimensional, and the Lie algebra is the same as $\Bbb R^3$ with the cross product.
 
4:52 PM
now take n!+1
either it is is prime
 
But note that I'm not looking for the Dynkin diagram of $SU(2)$. I'm looking for one of the above representation $\varphi$, whatever that means.
 
or a number between it and n is prime
as no factors may be shared
neat, huh?
 
Obliv: It seems pretty relevant to RSA and quite possibly Riemann as well.
Either there's a connection and I make hella money, or there's not and I at least get a paper about how not to solve RH.
 
Well
 
rsa?
 
4:54 PM
its a very famous encryption
 
solving it has a bounty of $1,000,000
 
i was wondering because of the collatz / 3n+1 conjecture
it seems like the process is just getting rid of all other primes in its factorization and eventually ending up with 2's
 
@PVAL Do you know an example of a 3-mfd that doesn't bound a definite 4-mfd? note I don't care about the sign of the bounding 4-mfd. (is it even possible with current technology to prove that this is true of some 3fold?)
also, what happened to the contractible stein manifold thing?
 
It seems so simple. Like if it wasn't 3n+1 and just +1, it is easy to see you would eventually reach a power of 2. the 3n skips a lot of those powers and makes it harder to land on one
 
4:56 PM
I might be wrong
 
but its like a finite probability i guess. i dont know how to prove that it is guaranteed tho
 
but there was a relevant modulo identity
like (a % b) % c = a % c when c < b
but I might be wrong
let me think this out
(a - b[a/b]) - c[(a - b[a/b])/c]
or maybe it's when c is a factor of b or something
idk
:p
 
what is that
 
what is what?
 
the modulo identity
 
4:59 PM
Lol
modulo is the remainder when a is divided by b
 
no i know that lol
 
Then what are you asking?
 
im tired. i meant to ask how is it relevant
 
Umm
you could take a numbers modulo
and then use that smaller number to find factors
but nevermind
it only works when c divides into b
like taking mod 6
and then looking if the result is divisible by 2 or 3
as for me expanding it
that was the floor function
 
hmm
 
5:03 PM
Duck, I'm starting to become more and more convinced that there is a rigorous foundation for your line of inquiry. But it's all still very confusing to me.
 
@EricStucky is the question and answer pair at least clear though?
 
I haven't read the answer
 
ah ok
 
The question is much clearer than anything else you've asked, fwiw
 
thanks
thats nice to hear
 
5:05 PM
The answer is kind of weird to read; I think it would not make sense to most people.
 
But since I kind of know how to read your writing, I think I get it.
 
@DanielFischer No we don't know what is the dimension of $E$
 
if you have any suggestions for rewording it feel free to suggest away. :p
 
user147690
@MikeMiller Where did this come up? I don't think you'll be able to talk about Dynkin diagrams here, maybe Coxeter graphs? I doubt the associated Lie algebra is semisimple if the Lie bracket is the cross product?
 
5:07 PM
i know the second portion of it probably isn't the strongest answer or the most rigorous. That's probably something that could classified as "sporadic", but that's just me.
"sporadic" isn't really a math term so I guess it's a matter of opinion
 
@DanielFischer if T is linear and continuous can we deduce from $\ker T=T^{-1}(\{0\})$ is closed that $T$ i continuous ?
 
My main mental block is that you keep wanting to treat floor(x) like a "thing" but it's not really a "thing", it's just a function and functions behave in certain ways. You keep saying "I don't care about the ordinary integral" but the fact is that you are modifying your foundations much deeper than just the definition of the integral.
But in the past, this was never clear to me, and with this question it became so.
 
I see
 
It's a simple Lie algebra. Yes, the word was "Dynkin diagram". Some quick geometry shows that $\Bbb R^3$ with the cross product is neither abelian nor has any nontrivial ideals: such a thing would be 2-dimensional, $V$. Now pick a vector $w$ neither in $V$ nor perpendicular to it. Crossing with this vector gets us something again out of $V$.
 
the idea is that the integral is flawed and I accept that
 
5:10 PM
Right.
 
i just study it anyway
because it yields interesting knowledge
about floor
 
@AlexClark Wikipedia assures me that the Dynkin diagram of $SU(2)$ is $A_1$ (a single vertex, no edges). But I'm looking for the "Dynkin diagram of a representation", as opposed to that of $SU(2)$. In any case, it's no big deal, the authors provide an alternative way of understanding all this.
 
I definitely would say that what I am doing is certainly out of the box thinking.
 
user147690
@MikeMiller So the complexification of su(2) is sl(2) sure
 
however, whether it is actually useful or just a silly game (like people used to say about ye old number theory) is a mystery
 
user147690
5:13 PM
sl(2) has dynkin diagram A_1 with one simple root
 
user147690
Dynkin diagrams for reps though
 
Anyway I'm going to go get lunch
 
mkai
I should finish blogging :P
 
i might come back later or I might go work on other stuff
 
good to see you.
 
5:14 PM
oh yeah
collision
heres an interesting though
its a question on whether a point in interesting with the shape formed by tracing one shape around the other
 
@EricStucky What's your blog?
I have one, but I don't write very often. Maybe I should try more.
 
thousandmaths.tumblr.com
 
so if you have a pretty square shape
or cubic
 
Right now I'm trying to write twice a day: one post about a talk and one answer to a prelim question.
 
just expand the edge accordingly and only test for point collision with a piece wise solid
i hope that made sense
 
5:16 PM
Not really :P
 
If you have two squares
 
You have two shapes and you're trying to check for collisions, is that the setup?
 
a and b
a is movable
and you want to see if a collides with b
 
Oh, geez, that's a lot. I was thinking of trying to write every month, or maybe a little more often.
 
just add an outer edge to b
And only test one point in a
 
user147690
5:17 PM
@MikeMiller I'll have to think on it, seems I can't help with that.
 
like run a around the perimeter of b
tracing the points parh
 
No worries, @AlexClark. Don't waste too much of your time on this garbage; I know how to use their computation without the Dynkin diagrams. I was just interested in the alternate approach.
 
then use that new curve as defining the region you want to see if the point is within
 
user147690
Btw @EricStucky I ended up just taking a 16 by 6 matrix :P. I assumed for some reason we wouldn't have redundancy, but I have heaps
 
user147690
5:18 PM
@MikeMiller Sure, it definitely seems interesting to me though :D
 
you could AND the two regions
 
The authors do not really give much in the way of hinting at what they mean, either.
 
and see if the integral from infinity to infinity is nonzero
but integrals are expensive to calculate
 
Oh, I see the plan: I think that this should run into problems unless region a is a circle.
 
not at all really
 
5:19 PM
The issue being that a point can be different distances from different boundary points.
 
if a shape is cubic at all places with right corners
then you just expand the edge a little
you don't calculate distance
you just hold one fixed
and slide the other around it tracing the new curve/surface
and that new surface only needs point comparison
 
Hmm okay so the regions cannot be rotated, it seems.
 
That will help a lot.
 
I was doing this in making a new game engine thing
so to be fair some assumptions are do to my limitations
 
5:21 PM
I bet I could show it works for all convex a and b. But for general shapes I'm not sure.
 
shrugs
idk
I just know it helps in the mentality
 
convex is probably all you need for a game engine though
 
I think I've found the greatest question ever:
 
Unless you're doing FPS or bullet hell type things
 
-6
Q: Does Sun speaks Om?

Parth TrivediIn india on whatsapp people forwards a pic that shows that Nasa says Sun has a voice and it is ancient om. Is it true or just fake cheating idea of Indian people?

 
5:22 PM
shrugs it all depends on what I'm doing or what the levels terrain looks like
 
@EricStucky This notion of random knot that you mention is pretty common. It's due to Tutte in the 60s, and I think it's Nathan Dunfield's preferred method of picking a random knot, and Nathan is the best.
 
That is so stupid
anuway
my stomach is yelling at me, so bye.
 
Also, people have definitely tried to do surfaces knotted in $\Bbb R^4$. There's a nice book about them, even. They're just sorta hard.
 
Oh shit I did two posts on our conference :P
 
(I hope you don't mind me commenting.)
 
5:24 PM
Not at all
 
There's a really nice book on surfaces in 4-space that I haven't had a chance to really dig into, but one day hope to. It's exciting that there are various ways people might be able to access this part of knot theory, and the fact that 4 dimensions are already a bit wild means one might expect it has "special" difficulties that higher-dimensional knot theory doesn't.
For instance, there's a classification of the groups that appear as the complement of an $n$-sphere in $S^{n+2}$ for $n>2$. But this is unknown for $n=1,2$.
 
Yeesh, giving one free chapter of a math book is mean :( :(
Actually, it's a great idea :P
 
If you want a copy, feel free to email me.
 
Sorry, I'm looking up knotted surfaces books
I don't have a personal interest, but I do want to post a link.
So, probably not what you had in mind :P
 
@Vrouvrou Codomain, not domain. The codomain is $\mathbb{R}$.
 
5:29 PM
The thing is that a lot of knot theory was inaccessible for a long time. We had no idea how to get bounds on, say, the genus of a knot, or the unknotting number (number of times you need to allow the knot to cross over itself to unknot it).
 
@DanielFischer so dimention of $\mathbb{R}=1$
so if $\ker T= T^{-1}(\{0\})$ is closed then $T$ is continuous right
 
For special kinds of knots, the Jones polynomial made progress on some parts of that. I think that was the 80s? After that, Khovanov homology in the 90s was a good tool. But one of the current kings of knot theory is Heegaard Floer knot homology, which Lipschitz talked at length about (ok, stated results at length).
 
Yes. And look at the induced map $\tilde{T} \colon E/\ker T \to \mathbb{R}$.
 
The invariant $\text{HFK}^\infty(K)$ is a bigraded abelian group (it has two gradings $s$ and $t$ instead of the one in regular singular homology). Using this, you can... detect the genus of the knot (completely calculable from HFK!!! Not even just bounds!) Get bounds on the four-dimensional knot genus. Get bounds on the unknotting number. Prove that knots aren't concordant (though Tim Cochran and his collaborators have their own program for studying concordance).
You can tell whether the complement of the knot fibers over $S^1$ (that is, can you decompose it into a circle's worth of punctured surfaces?) and many other cool questions.
And it's still not enough for we assholes.
 
5:33 PM
:P
 
@DanielFischer what we found with $\tilde{T} \colon E/\ker T \to \mathbb{R}$
 
Do you mind if I just wholesale quote you on this stuff? I think it would be good to do a correction post anyway, and knowing very little I'm not sure how well I could paraphrase. XD
 
If you know that that map is continuous, @Vrouvrou, you're done, since $T = \tilde{T}\circ \pi$, where $\pi$ is the canonical projection onto $E/\ker T$.
 
Feel free. I am not really a knot theorist, so I am out of date about what we can do now and what we can't. I think some of the currently favorite questions are "What is the 4-dimensional genus of a knot?" and "What is the unknotting number of a knot?", though there are many many many many more.
 
what does 4d-genus mean?
It's not what I think it means, surely
 
5:37 PM
It's the minimal genus of a surface it bounds in $B^4$.
Thinking of $S^3$ as the boundary of $B^4$.
I should really be careful, because there are two different kinds of 4-dimensional genus: smooth and topological. I'm thinking about smooth, though topological I think is also hard to access.
 
Ah, okay.
 
One of the postdocs at UCLA told me this charming fact. There are things we still don't know about the trefoil! In fact, there are two trefoils: the left-handed one, and the right-handed one. You can do something called the "Whitehead double" to a knot $K$. Kristen Hendricks told me that the Whitehead double of the left-handed trefoil is known to have smooth 4-ball genus zero. (That's known as being "smoothly slice" - it bounds a smooth disc in the 4-ball.)
This is open for the whitehead double of the right-hand trefoil!
I do believe that it's known to be topologically slice, but not yet known to be smoothly so.
 
weird
 
Anyway, not really my area, I just talk to people who do it sometimes. If I care about knots, it's usually in the context of 3-manifolds.
 
@DanielFischer it has a relation with the proof please
?
 
5:44 PM
What do you know about $E/\ker T$?
 
:)
I mean, is this not why most people care about knots?
 
A lot of people are really into knots on their own.
I don't get too excited about calculating the unknotting number, say, but some people do.
 
@DanielFischer is open
 
Hm, perhaps I have a skewed impression because I mostly know about knots from talks, and at talks it makes sense that they would advertise the topology/geometry applications.
Actually I don't think we even have a knot theorist at UMN :/
 
I know Tyler Lawson wrote a great paper with someone moving to UCLA about knot theory last year :) But, glancing through your directory, I believe with you.
 

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