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6:03 PM
@ramsay i asked that one to sir, he told you are correct
 
Hah, naturally it's been researched to death already.
@SAWblade I have a closed form for $m=2$. Just figured out how to solve the recurrence.
 
6:19 PM
Oh hey, hit me up. :0
 
Let
$$A = \begin{bmatrix} 1 & 1 & 1 & 0 & 1 & 1 \\ 1 & 1 & 1 & 0 & 0 & 0 \\ 1 & 1 & 1 & 1 & 0 & 0 \\ 1 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \end{bmatrix}$$
and
$$ x_0 = \begin{bmatrix} 1 \\ 1 \\ 1 \\ 0 \\ 0 \\ 1 \end{bmatrix}.$$
Then your answer will be found in the first slot of $x_n = A^n x_0$.
 
So in position $a_{11}$?
 
The first coordinate of $x_n$ is $P_n$, the second is $Q_n$, the third is $R_n$. The fourth is the sum $P_{n-1} + \cdots + P_0$, the fifth is $R_{n-1} + \cdots R_0$, the sixth is always $1$.
No, in position 1 of the $6 \times 1$ column vector $x_n$.
$A$ is constant.
 
Ah, okay.
 
I checked it in octave. Gives the correct result for the 24th entry in A006192.
 
6:28 PM
Wow. :0
 
Essentially I just added two more variables representing the cumulative sums of $P$ and $R$ so that I could express each of the five as a combination of the results for $n-1$.
 
Clever. :0
 
Thanks!
 
Can someone help me with a summation problem?
 
Looks like OEIS has a different recurrence, and also a generating function.
Next up: A007786!
And then A007787.
The formula they have for A007787 is terrifying. No way someone figured that out by hand.
 
6:36 PM
@YakovShklarov that hurts just to look at
 
@Semiclassical Can you help me with a summation problem?
 
"Just ask; don't ask to ask."
 
This is the first time I am using snake oil method so I am not good at it
 
ahh
i used to know the snake oil method well enough. but it's been a while
 
6:42 PM
have you looked at Wilf's generatingfunctionlogy? he talks about snake oil in there
it's online in pdf form
main thing i remember in this context is that he gave an example with more than one parameter, as you have here
not that it'll be equivalent, but it may give a sense of how to proceed
 
@Semiclassical Just wait till you see the next one. A145403.
 
Okay I will look at that. Thankyou. But just for context this is a problem from Niven Zuckerman and he does not give anything about snake oil@Semiclassical
 
please no more. @yakov
 
Ah, it's always fun to see someone cringe at the messiness of SAWs. xD
 
@albas i do wonder if there's a combinatorial interpretation to the problem, something along the lines of inclusion-exclusion
not that i was ever very good at constructing that kind of argument
 
6:46 PM
Hmm.. I will love to see an argument like that
 
But first I should try for an analytical proof(except using induction). I do not think even induction would work here
 
sure. main reason i suggest inclusion-exclusion is that the sum is alternating. (that, and the conclusion of the counting problem would be that "either exactly one exists, or none exists at all" which is cute)
 
For n=0 it is pretty easy but for $n>0$ it is difficult
 
right.
@yakor that answer was quick :p
 
6:53 PM
:P
 
@AlexClark I was acknowleged in a paper recently for reasons unclear to me. I asked the author, and he told me that it was because I talked to him about the project at some point.
So I agree with Tobias that you should strive to be cited, not acknowledged. :)
 
@Semiclassical, @Albas: I'm just studying this stuff in "Concrete Mathematics" so it's right at the top of my mind.
 
right
 
@MikeMiller But that entails actually writing something for people to cite :)
 
You suggested he write up the details of the computation I take it?
 
6:55 PM
@MikeMiller No, I don't think that would be of any real interest
 
Ah, I see what you mean now
 
But he still has plenty of time to get writing. He is not even a graduate student yet.
 
mhm
but now you're going to make me and @Semiclassical feel weird about all the writing we're not doing.
 
@MikeMiller Hey, I should be writing more too (at least it feels that way)
 
Ah, take it as a compliment, I assumed you were a responsible adult unlike us
 
6:58 PM
"You should be writing more."
 
Not sure about that :)
 
I should be writing while I'm waiting for this stuff to run
 
that works, yeah
 
i know what i should be doing today
but dangit it's such a nice day
 
7:00 PM
@Albas You're welcome. :P
 
@Yakov could you just spread some light upon the negation identity you used. How do you prove that
 
@Albas The binomial coefficient is be defined as
$$\binom{r}{n} = \frac{r^{\underline n}}{n!},\quad \text{integer } n \geqslant 0,$$
and 0 for $n < 0$.
Here $r^{\underline n} = r(r-1)\cdots(r-n+1)$ is the falling factorial.
 
this is probably the shortest question I've given: math.stackexchange.com/q/1794539/137524
i suspect it might get closed :/. not really sure there's anything else to be said, though.
 
Well, there's an identity for falling factorials: $r^{\underline n} = (-1)^n (-r+n-1)^{\underline n}$. Try to prove that, first.
It is closely related to exercise 2.17 in Concrete Mathematics.
It should be easy to prove: just expand the falling factorials on both sides as products of $n$ terms and you'll see it immediately.
 
@YakovShklarov Proved
 
7:15 PM
Great. Now just divide through by $n!$ and you're done.
 
Yes right.
Hmm.. I learnt something new today
 
Yep. By the way, the definition in terms of the falling factorial is more general than the more common one involving factorials, since it defines the binomial coefficient for all real upper indices.
 
Yes I did see that.
 
Good.
@Semiclassical Good question, but I don't even know where to start!
 
Hmm... Reviewing Richard P stanley's book might give us a idea @Semiclassical
He has many such combinatorial proofs
 
7:22 PM
yes, well, that'd require work on my part
and the whole reason i'm asking it is because i'd rather get someone else to do it instead :p
 
But that book's gargantuan@Semi It will take atleast a good 2-3 months to do it very nicely
So I cannot look at it right now
Its like "Hatcher" for combinatorics
 
@Albas I made an error in the answer to your question. It's a pretty egregious one but it doesn't affect the answer. :)
Fixed now.
 
Why is it that if we have ratio as 121212/131313, the simplification is just 12/13? I've found that extends to any ratio where the same set of numbers repeats.
 
121212 = 12*10101
 
@Semiclassical Thanks, that's been bugging me.
 
7:26 PM
np
 
Haha, someone's given a combinatorial proof!
 
yep, that works
 
7:53 PM
re-morning
 
Hey, @SemiC, I got a pretty basic question for you.
 
that was the question
 
i see.
 
well, good chat folks.
 
8:02 PM
Suppose I am on the ground, and I throw some object perpendicularly (wrt the ground) up with the amount of force required to make it's initial velocity $v$ say. Due to gravity, my object will go up for some time (say till time $t$) and stabilize with velocity $0$. So $0 = v - gt$ where $g$ is acceleration due to gravity, hence $t = v/g$. Plug and chug further to get $s = vt - 1/2gt^2 = v^2/g - 1/2 v^2/g = 1/2 v^2/g$. So I know my object goes distance $1/2 v^2/g$ 'till it starts to fall.
But if there was no gravity, it'd go $d = vt = v^2/g$ distance in time $t = v/g$. So it seems under the influence of gravity the distance the object travels is halved. Is there an intuitive way to see this?
 
ooo, physics
 
sorry for the delay
 
think i can draw a diagram that encapsulates your point
 
$1/2v^2/g$ is poor typograph, fwiw.
 
here's another version of that, which only requires the upward motion
 
8:05 PM
sorry about that too.
 
oh, wait, that's the version you gave. nm
 
Yeah, $v^2 / 2g$ is more clear. So the question is, why does the object only go half as far...
 
the blue is the height as a function of time in gravity, and the yellow is what it'd be in the absence of gravity with the same initial velocity
 
Semi, why is it exactly half though? Is there a geometric proof involving conics?
 
the geometric answer is: because it's a parabola
 
8:07 PM
@Semiclassical Mhm, cute diagram. Still doesn't actually tell me why I should expect the result to be half as much.
 
I know it's a parabola, but why is that true for parabolas? I've never seen that before.
I know how to work it out algebraically but that's not interesting.
 
it's a result that's surprisingly useful. for one, you can use it to prove that parabolic mirrors have a common focus
the version of it i know is that, if you were to cut the diagram off at $y=1$ instead, then the yellow line would end at $t=1/2$
algebraically: if you have a parabola of the form $y=a x^2$, then $dy/dx=2a x = 2y/x$
 
Decompose the distance traveled as a function of two things: initial velocity and the downward velocity induced by gravity over time. You're really asking why the latter is (negative) half the former. That's a double integral, giving 1/2 gt^2. Since we're evaluating precisely at the time for which gt = -v, and the integral coming from v is vt, you get the desired answer.
So I would say the reason is "When you integrate from acceleration to distance, a factor of 1/2 appears that doesn't when you integrate from velocity to distance."
 
Hm.
 
which tells you that the slope at point $(x,y)$ is the same as the slope you'd get by drawing a line from $(x,y)$ to $(0,-x)$
it's also pretty simple to understand if you look at the plot of velocity versus time
the area under the yellow line is, of course, twice that under the blue line
so the distance travelled is twice as much
 
8:13 PM
which is the same as semiclassical's general statement about parabolae.
 
right. and the same as mike's about integration
 
@MikeMiller @Semiclassical Both of you raise interesting points. But I suppose I was expecting for more insightful or "physically obvious" explanations, which may not really exist.
I guess it's fine.
 
to me, the significance is the fact that the parabola is the curve such that $dy/dx = 2 y/x$
 
Thanks.
 
which means you can give similar characterizations to any power-law $y=x^r$
 
8:15 PM
@BalarkaSen What's an example of a physically obvious thing?
 
i think an 'obvious proof' will depend very much on which definition of the parabola one chooses, though
 
@Semiclassical I like your last explanation, with the graph with straight lines. It makes things very clear.
And here I was drawing cones and intersecting planes.
 
I think the lines are probably the best possible explanation.
 
@Semiclassical Oh, no, I missed this. That does give intuition.
 
8:21 PM
So a good way to remember this is: if you throw a small heavy rock up at a 45 degree angle, it will land four times further away than the maximum height it reaches.
 
very cute phrasing
 
@SemiC Yup, that picture with the lines makes things much more geometrically obvious. I feel like I should have figured that out by myself, seeing the simplicity. Thanks.
@MikeMiller academia obscura has a lot of interesting posts
 
how's work
 
horrible. i couldn't get anything done today.
 
Huy
should have learned how to cook
 
8:33 PM
tsk
 
there's a classmate who's bugged me with solving his math problems yesterday- which i did and now he's bugging me with solving his physics problems tomorrow, and i had to learn physics to prepare for answering his questions (i didn't tell him i didn't study anything)
annoying dude annoying
 
Huy
and why do you solve them in the first place
 
i am bad with coming up with excuses, and he's a friend.
 
is it Huy
7:3 odds say it's Huy
 
Huy
you lost the game
 
8:37 PM
Huy is my classmate? i never realized that
 
huy's trolling transcends spatial placement
 
Huy
I need to repot my parsley soon, btw
thought I'd share this here
 
thx
 
Who can solve $e^x = \cos x$?
 
Huy
Newton
 
8:41 PM
@BalarkaSen does this mean you're also not going to work tomorrow
 
nope, I am going to decline if he ask me to solve any more of his problems tomorrow.
 
Huy
what excuse did you come up
 
oh, I forgot: I did work today. I can prove the Whitney immersion theorem.
 
which one is that
 
@Huy "I dunno this stuff".
every k-manifold admits injective immersion into $\Bbb R^{2k+1}$.
 
8:44 PM
usually one calls that the embedding theorem, since (at least w compact domain) that's also known as an embedding
 
for compact manifolds, yes.
 
the immersion theorem goes one lower
 
oh, hmm.
I probably made that terminology up then.
 
so how do you prove it
 
It's just a cutting down dimensions argument. My manifold by definition sits inside some huge Euclidean space. I choose some appropriate point/vector not in the manifold so that projecting the ambient Euclidean space to the orthogonal complement of that vector and postcomposing that with the embedding also gives me an immersion.
This can be done by Sard's theorem.
 
8:51 PM
Excuse me @DanielFischer, since this conversation wasn't required from you, but I would like to know if there are counterexamples, or it is possible to prove that $-2N+3S_+(N)+S_-(N)+2S_0(N)=M(N)$, where $M(N)$ is the Mertens function and with the $S_{*}$ we take the count of those integers $n\leq N$ with $\mu(n)=1,-1$ or $0$ respectively the subscript $+,-$ or $0$. Thanks.
 
and with the details you've given me, by induction, I can embed my manifold in $\Bbb R^0$
The point I'm not successfully making is that if your sketch isn't detailed enough to see why we get the particular dimension you stated as the answer, then it's not a detailed enough sketch.
 
I am trying to find out how to say what's the lower bound for dimension cutting $(2k + 1)$ is without getting too detailed. I want to say 'something something secant variety'. You're essentially looking at $M \times M \times \Bbb R$ and immersing that in $\Bbb R^m$ via $(x, y, r) \mapsto (f(x) -f(y))r$, and you choose by Sard's some $a$ which does not belong to the image of neither this nor my embedding $f : M \to \Bbb R^m$.
 
any 1 here?
 
So $m > 2k + 1$ has to happen. What this accomplishes is that if $f$ composed with the projection is not injective, then image of $M \times M \times \Bbb R \to \Bbb R^m$ contains $a$.
Which is a contradiction. I guess geometrically one should think about something secant variey like construction happening but I can't quite see it precisely yet.
 
I have no idea why the projection you came up with is still an immersion,
 
9:04 PM
I am also here @usukidoll, regards. Is late nigth in my country.
 
OK, suppose $p$ is the projection of $\Bbb R^m$ into the complement of $(a)$. Then I have to prove $p \circ f$ is an immersion.
So $D(p \circ f)(x) = Dp(f(x)) \circ Df(x)$ which is $p(f(x)) \circ Df(x)$. All I need to prove is that this has nonzero kernel.
Oh, yikes, that's not obvious. Hmm. I need to show $Df(x)$ is not in the span of $(a)$.
Ah, I remember now.
$T(M) \to \Bbb R^m$ given by $(x, v) \mapsto Df(x)(v)$ is an immersion. So I need to use Sard's theorem again to make sure $a$ is not in the image of this either ($m > 2k = \dim T(M)$ so I can do that).
 
whoops I was gonna edit . What's a sig fig -? significant figure
 
It's good that you remember this because that's half of the whole point...
 
If $Df(x)(v)$ is in $(a)$, then that map's gonna contain $a$. I forgot this, sorry.
 
@user243301 If I parse it correctly, then it's an identity. For $M(N) = S_{+}(N) - S_{-}(N)$, and $N = S_{+}(N) + S_{-}(N) + S_{0}(N)$.
 
9:14 PM
Now that I think about it, I think that's the argument one uses for varieties too.
It's curious how the two proofs look so similar.
 
why can you reduce the dimension one more than that if you just care about immersions?
 
$T(M)$ has dimension $2k$... so I need $m > 2k$, not $m > 2k + 1$.
 
in general, you can drop both of those numbers by 1 more, but that won't be done in G&P
 
oh, that's curious
 
if $e(n)$ is the minimal dimension in which all compact manifolds of dimension $n$ embed, we've provided the bound $e(n) \leq 2n$. this is the best possible polynomial bound.
 
9:21 PM
right, as RP^2 does not embed in R^3.
 
sorry, not following your point
 
well, all compact manifolds of dimension $n$ embed in $\Bbb R^{2n}$ as you said, but this cannot be improved. I think this is what you were saying?
I provided an example where a reduction of it to $2n - 1$ fails.
 
What do you mean by "this cannot be improved"?
 
There exists compact manifolds of dimension $n$ which cannot be embedded in $\Bbb R^m$ where $m < 2n$. E.g., RP^2 ($n = 2$).
So I cannot make the statement "all compact manifolds of dimension $n$ embed in $\Bbb R^m$" for any $m < 2n$. $2n$ cannot be reduced any further.
 
I am having trouble parsing the quantifiers on your statement. You are saying you cannot do better uniformly for all $n$ I assume?
 
9:30 PM
Yes, that is what I was trying to say. I cannot improve that uniformly for all manifolds of dimension $n$. But I suppose you were trying to say something else?
 
Thanks @DanielFischer, the right one is $M(N) = -2N+3S_{+}(N) +S_{-}(N)+2S_0(N)$, I get it from substituion in the relationship between the zeta and Dirichlet eta functions, for $\Re>1$ (if there a no mistake in this claims) with the substitution $s_n=3+\mu(n)$, then taking logarithms and using particular values of the zeta and eta you get it.
 
I think it's pretty clear what I said above, but it's not very helpful, because obviously a polynomial bound cannot be better than a linear bound. So let me say instead that no algebraic function $g$ is a better bound than 2n; so there is no algebraic function with $e(n) \leq g(n) \leq 2n$ excerpt for $2n$ itself.
 
Ah, OK.
 
At least I think that's true. Do algebraic functions have finitely many zeroes?
Yeah, it is. OK.
So you know you can't write some better bound via trickery with exponents or something.
 
Right. Interesting.
 
9:40 PM
this is just my stupid way of saying "there are infinitely many $n$ for which $e(n) = 2n$"
 
Excuse me, if there are no mistakes I say that you need to show $$2^{M(N)}=\prod_{n=1}^N\frac{1}{4}\cdot\frac{4\cdot2^{\mu(n)}\zeta(3+\mu(n))-\z‌​eta(3+\mu(n))}{\eta(3+\mu(n))}.$$ Now I hope tomorrow, if you want answer if there are any counterexample, and don't disturb to you more, now. Very thanks much @DanielFischer and sorry me for this puntual interference.
 
10:10 PM
@balarka here's a different kind've physics question which i'm fond of.
suppose i put an ice cube in a glass and fill it with water. As the ice melts, what happens to the water level?
 
cute video w cats
 
Let $n$ be an integer that is not divisible by any square greater than $1$. Denote by $x_m$ the last digit of the number $x^m$ in the number system with base $n$. For which integers $x$ is it possible for $x_m$ to be $0$?
 
10:28 PM
By the way such integers are called "square-free."
For $m=0$ the answer is obviously "none". Have you solved it for $m=1$?
Err wait, I think I may be misinterpreting your question.
Do you mean "for which integers $x$ does there exist a positive integer $m$ such that $x_m = 0$?"
 
i assume that $m$ is a nonnegative integer
hmm, but the question never seems to say
 
Okay, so let's assume then that $n$ is fixed. Let's try $n=2$ first.
Which integers $x$ have some even power?
 
only even numbers
 
Okay. How about $n = 3$? Which integers $x$ have some power which is divisible by $3$?
 
only multiples of 3
 
10:39 PM
What about $n=4$?
Wrong!
Also, it's a trick question, because $4$ is not square-free.
 
sorry, 2 mod 4 and 0 mod 4
 
So again, even integers :)
 
hi @AndrewThompson
 
how do we generalize this?
 
Let's try the first non-prime base first.
So, $n=6$.
 
10:41 PM
so we need it to be 0 mod 6
which means, 0 is the only one that works
 
What do you mean?
 
since $6$ has only two prime factors, we can't
 
We can't what?
 
any number with more than 2 prime factors we can't represent except with 0 mod n
*at least
 
What do you mean?
 
10:46 PM
Observe any integer $x$ in base $n$ must be $0$ modulo $n$ if $n$ has at least two prime factors.
 
Any integer? You mean, any integer $x$ which satisfies the condition for some $m>0$?
 
yes, right
 
Good. The question is why? Why is it that $x^m \equiv 0 \pmod n \implies x \equiv 0 \pmod n$ for every $m>0$ and square-free $n>1$?
 
Yes, that's what i am wondering
Wait, but it is also true for nonsquarefree numbers too
 
Well, there's something you should know about square-free integers. A positive integer is square-free if and only if it is the product of distinct primes.
Not it's not. We have $2^2 \equiv 0 \pmod 4$ but $2 \not \equiv 0 \pmod 4$.
 
10:53 PM
so we must have at least one prime with power equal to 1
so in fact it doesn't have to be squarefree necessarily
 
You mean, $n$ must have at least one prime with multiplicity 1 in its prime factorization? Why?
Can you show me an example demonstrating that it doesn't have to be squarefree?
 
Okay, I think I might be wrong
wait no i am right
take for example $n = 2^3*3^3*5$
any number below that and greater than 0 cannot be raised to any power such that they will be congruent to 0 mod n
$x = 0$ always works
 
What about $x = 2 \cdot 3 \cdot 5$? Then take $m = 3$.
Right. So it seems that they were on to something when they stipulated that the base $n$ be square-free.
 
yeah so if it is square free we can't raise it to any power
 
What do you mean?
 
11:04 PM
Take for example $n = 2 \cdot 3$. Any number less than this raise to a power will never be $0$ mod $n$ except 0
 
Exactly.
Let's backtrack for a moment. Let's consider only prime $n$.
For $m \ge 0$, what does $x^m \equiv 0 \pmod p$ imply?
 
What do you mean?
 
Let's take the simple case where $n$ is prime, so we'll denote $n$ by $p$ now. We're looking for all integers $x$ for which there exists some integer $m \ge 0$ such that $x^m$ is divisible by $p$.
 
since primes are square free, doesn't that solve it?
 
In other words, $x^m \equiv 0 \pmod p$.
Primes are squarefree but not all square-free numbers are prime.
So we're looking at a specific case. But it's the easiest case.
 
11:12 PM
they didn't ask for primes in the question, are you looking at them separately?
 
Yes.
They said $n$ can by any square-free number. But instead, let's consider the easier sub-problem where $n$ is prime.
Maybe it will help shed some light on the general case.
 
ok
we have shown that $x \equiv 0 \pmod{n}$ for square free $n$ right?
 
Well, the problem is to find all $x$ such that $x \equiv 0 \pmod n$. We haven't really shown anything yet.
 
for all $x$ where $x \equiv 0 \pmod{n}$ it is true
thus $x = nk$
 
Yes, all $x$ congruent to 0 modulo $n$ are divisible by $n$, so they have a 0 in the last digit in base $n$.
And vice versa, if the last digit is 0 then $x \equiv 0 \pmod n$.
Really just another way of stating the same thing.
 
11:16 PM
so haven't we proved the question?
 
You mean we haven't proved the answer?
We haven't even found the answer yet.
 
I am confused, we were asked to find all $x$ for which $x_m = 0$ and we did since we got that $x = nk$
 
Sorry, maybe I confused you. I made a mistake. Let me correct myself: The problem is to find all $x$ such that $x^m \equiv 0 \pmod n$ for some $m$.
 
we did. $x = nk$
 
So you're saying that the answer is "exactly those $x$ which are divisible by $n$". You're right. But I don't think we really proved it. Can you prove it?
 
11:21 PM
yes: It is easy to see that for any such squarefree $n$, $x \equiv 0 \pmod{n}$ since any integer less than $n$ doesn't share at least one prime in common with $n$. Thus, $x = nk$ for some $k \in \mathbb{Z}$.
 
What about integers greater than $n$? Say, those between $n$ and $2n$?
Do those not work?
 
those are the same mod since i am taking it modulo $n$
 
Ahh, right.
 
There is a second part to this question: Prove that the sequence $x_m$ is periodic with period $t$ independent of $x$.
 
Well, haven't you basically done that already?
You were looking at $x$ modulo $n$.
 
11:25 PM
right
 
I'm not sure exactly what it means for the period of the sequence $x_m$ to be independent of $x$, but whatever.
But back to the first part, if you like you can consider this to be an application of this theorem: If $n$ has prime factorization $\prod_p p^{n_p}$, then $$a \equiv b \pmod m \iff a \equiv b \pmod {p^{n_p}} \text{ for all }p.$$
And then let $a = x^m$ and $b=0$. So the square-free case reduces to the prime case.
Anyway, I gotta go. Bye.
^^^ that $\mod m$ on the left side should be a $\mod n$.
 
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