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2:04 PM
@Soham short exact sequences are a convenient language to do a lot of stuff.
good that you're learning it :)
 
@BalarkaSen Judging from the stuff you and bananas say all the while, I would guess so!
And it'll take me a while to get there.
Currently pondering $S_n$s for a bit.
 
if you know the isomorphism theorems in group theory, you might already be ready to get to short exact sequences
@Soham $S_n$ are cool groups.
 
Oh, well, I'd prefer to do this chapter properly, so that I don't have any trouble with the second groups chapter (which is after modules). Then linear algebra. Then fields (and Abel-Ruffini mmm).
 
you should think about subgroups of symmetric groups.
 
I've been familiar with groups for a while. I was very interested in Rubik's cubes once.
@BalarkaSen Will do.
 
2:08 PM
i.e., which groups appear as subgroups of symmetric groups? (in the essence of the nielson-schreier problem)
 
@BalarkaSen More symmetrics?
 
there are non-symmetric subgroups of symmetric groups, so no. nice try!
 
I'll see, then.
 
begin with an easy example, first. how about $S_3$? how about $S_4$?
 
@BalarkaSen Probably something like products of two symmetrics of different orders. I have no clue what I'm saying.
@BalarkaSen I'll work out some examples, yes.
 
2:10 PM
yes, working out examples is a better method than guessing.
if you try hard, i am pretty sure you can make a guess at what they are.
@iwriteonbananas oh, you were asking for problems yesterday.
i've got a problem for you
 
${e, x, x^2, x^3 \cdots x^n}$?
 
nice, let's hear it
 
or ${e, xy, x^2y, x^3y \cdots x^ny}$? or that kinda thing in general?
 
i was gonna start doing some exercises about mayer vietoris
 
$\Bbb Z_n$ is indeed a subgroup of $S_n$. what is $x$ here?
 
2:13 PM
@BalarkaSen one of the generators, I guess
 
@iwriteonbananas compute homology of arbitrary fiber bundles, given the fiber and the base space. (:P)
 
I have no clue what I'm saying yet.
 
@Soham oh, you already know about the presentation of $S_n$?
 
Since I started cubing two years ago :P
 
what is $x$, explicitly? can't make sure if you don't write down the cycle explicitly.
 
2:15 PM
$(3 1 2)$ is $y$ in my book, but I'll go with that
 
@BalarkaSen i dont understand the question. given a fiber bundle $p:E\to B$ u want me to compute the homology of $E$?
 
yes. i am just having some fun, though :P. it's a hard question, i guess.
 
where did you get that question from?
 
google serre spectral sequence. i didn't get it at all, though.
went all over my head.
 
Hey.
Is that correct?
 
2:16 PM
@SohamChowdhury no, what's the presentation of S_n you have in mind?
 
i know hatcher has a few notes, but i am afraid of reading those
 
ok, im gonna skip that problem i think
 
lol
 
@BalarkaSen generators $x = (12), y = (312)$
Don't really know presentations yet (properly)
 
2:18 PM
those are generators of $S_3$, not $S_n$.
 
Then I think I'll get back to you later.
When I know a bit more :)
 
sure
but you'll know about this one soon enough.
 
fact : every group of order n appears as a subgroup of S_n.
this is called cayley's theorem. not much hard to prove, but requires developing a completely new language of group actions.
 
Isn't Cayley's theorem very deep and all?
Ah, group actions. Last section of the chapter.
 
2:21 PM
once you develop the language of group actions, everything becomes an almost-tautology.
@iwriteonbananas thought i'd share : the nice thing about mayer-vietoris sequence is that it gives you an algorithm to compute homology of arbitrary 3-manifolds
i think there's an exercise in hatcher which asks to compute homology of the 3-manifold obtained from pasting boundaries of two torii using the identity map $x \mapsto x$
 
In some sense that is what "every group appears a symmetry group of some object" is saying
 
interesting
 
it's a fact (as far as i know) that every 3-manifold can be decomposed into handlebodies (solid g-torii) glued along their boundaries by a diffeomorphism. this is called heegard decomposition. you can use this to compute homology of any 3-manifold via mayer-vietoris on the handlebodies, once you know the gluing diffeomorphism
 
how does that algorithm work?
 
@BalarkaSen Why did you ruin the surprise, that you tried to set up!
 
2:23 PM
so above, were you talking about solid tori?
 
@PaulPlummer haha, what did I do?
 
You set up a problem (what are the subgroups of $S_n$) and then ruined the surprise by saying the answer
 
@BalarkaSen is that $S^3$?
 
@PaulPlummer :(
 
@PaulPlummer well, better prove a statement rather than finding what to prove!
the latter is hard.
 
2:26 PM
@BalarkaSen Its the journey not the destination
 
@iwriteonbananas close enough, close enough. not quite, though, as $S^3$ is two solid torii pasted along the boundary via the diffeo which identifies the longitudal circle of one with the latitudal one of the other.
 
Achha, are there any nontrivial bounds on how many generators a group of order n must have?
 
ask @Paul
those are the kind of stuff he thinks about
pretty sure it's a hard question.
 
@Paul hints only if possible
 
@BalarkaSen right, i remember....that came up in finding a delta complex structure for $S^3$
by writing it as a quotient of $\Delta^3$
 
2:28 PM
yeah
good that you remember that one.
 
it's an awesome problem
but honestly, the homology of $S^3$ can be computed easier
 
i found that identification space immensely helpful when visualizing hopf fibration
 
ok, i havent learned about that yet
 
and some symplectic topologist told me that almost all of contact topology on S^3 can be done using that identification space
(i don't know anything about that stuff)
 
2:30 PM
@iwriteonbananas yes, but that space is not $S^3$. more to the point, homology of arbitrary 3-manifolds cannot be computed easier
in fact, using M-V on handlebody decompositions is as easier as it gets.
 
@BalarkaSen true. so every compact 3 manifold is two solid tori glued along their boundary?
 
not solid torii. solid orientable genus g surfaces.
 
oh ok
lens space can be obtained form two solid tori if i recall correctly, right?
 
mhm :)
 
where did you learn about the heegaard decomposition?
 
2:33 PM
I am not sure what the best is using just the fact the group is order $n$. A sort of similiar idea is you can show that if $H$ is a subgroup of $G$ then $G \setminus H$ generates the group $G$. @SohamChowdhury
 
you can visualize lens spaces using that $\Delta$-complex structure on $S^3$, and observing how $\Bbb Z_p$ acts on the little square, actually
@iwriteonbananas i don't really know about them. just heard about them.
 
@PaulPlummer Don't know quotients yet, I'll get back to you later.
 
Also I think @BalarkaSen is overestimating how much I think about such things. I don't really think much about finite groups @SohamChowdhury
 
how does $\Bbb{Z}_p$ act on a little square?
 
@SohamChowdhury That is set minus
 
2:35 PM
Oh
 
@PaulPlummer you know better than me about those stuff anyway
i neither think about finite groups nor countably infinite groups.
:P
@iwriteonbananas you know what the lens space is, right? i mean, not as a \Delta-complex, but as a coset space?
 
@BalarkaSen no, not really
but nevermind, i need to leave in a few minutes
 
you'll find them in Hatcher's examples of computation using cellular homology
k, sure, g'bye.
 
yeah i skimmed over that before, and i know a lens space form exercise 2.1.8
see ya
 
yes, that's the simplicial definition
 
2:40 PM
@SohamChowdhury math.stackexchange.com/a/31984/29123 has that every group of order $n$ is generated by $n/2$ elements
 
interesting, @Paul
 
I think it should actually be pretty easy to show that, but it shows that every subgroup of $S_n$ is generated by $n/2$ elements, and that is a sharp bound
I guess the "what are the subgroups of $S_n$" is not really completely answered now that I think about it :P (since you don't know anything about the groups on more than $n$ elements)
So you didn't spoil the problem :P @BalarkaSen
 
And the lower bound is obviously 1 ($\Bbb{Z}/n\Bbb{Z}$)
 
yes, i noticed that, but thought i'd'nt rather say that :P
the lower bound is 0, @SohamChowdhury
 
No generators, yes.
 
2:44 PM
:P
 
I wasn't counting that.
C'mon.
I really just wanted to write $\Bbb{Z}/n\Bbb{Z}$ in chat. I like how Z looks in blackboard bold. :P
 
cool notation, isn't it?
 
What did I miss!
 
Yeah, I guess.
 
i like $\mathbf{Z}$, but i guess that's just because i care about p-adics.
 
2:46 PM
Although I'd go with that $F_\bullet$ thing you guys do and $(\Bbb{Z}/n\Bbb{Z})^{\ast}$ as my favourites.
Sans-serif for life! $\sf{Grp}$ (ah, I wanted to write that for a long time) is cool
 
yeah, $H_\bullet$, $\langle \bullet, \bullet \rangle$, $|| \bullet ||$ looks pretty nice.
 
The second one is a smiley.
$*,*$
 
no, it's a billinear form
3
ugh, i'd appreciate if you guys stopped starring every message in the chat, whoever is doing that
2
@PaulPlummer speaking of p-adics : i heard about a pretty fun litmus test to distinguish number theorists and geometers.
 
You won't let us do anything @BalarkaSen, no cursing, no staring, what is next no math :P
 
if someone writes $\Bbb Z/p\Bbb Z$ for cyclic group, he's a number theorist
however, if you see $\Bbb Z_p$, he's bound to be a geometer
 
2:51 PM
Aluffi says that's for p-adics
(for prime p)
 
yes.
 
I guess we are going to have to put that to the test, and see what Mike and Ted do
 
but geometers use it for p-adics.
both will do $\Bbb Z_p$, although Mike will probably do it because he's lazy :P
i heard this one from Kumar Murty, who came here the previous year.
 
If they write $C_n$ they are group theorists .
 
yeah, haha
what's more, geometers, when they really need to work with p-adics, write $\Bbb Z_{(p)}$
 
2:54 PM
I did not know that
 
yeah, it's hilariously funny
(bad use of adjectives)
i mean, that's the notation for localization at $(p)$!
 
Admittedly, not sure how the p-adics got the rights on the notation $\mathbb Z_p$, they should be forced to use inverse limit notation, or some short hand close to that.
 
i am not gonna do \varprojlim Z_{p^i} everytime i write p-adics
some do $\mathbf{Z}_p$ instead, but that's not suitable for writing on paper
 
that is why you do \newcommand{\padics}{\varprojlim Z_{p^i}}
 
guys doing local langlands would be out of ink if they do that
 
2:58 PM
or \pints
:D
I think that is the new name for the padic integers, pints. And why should algebraist write \mathbb{Z} / n \mathbb{Z} or even the \Bbb variant (of course one can just make a newcommand for that)
 
\pints is just lame
 
you're lame
 
His lame?
 
So this is a proof of well-definedness of multiplication in $(Z/nZ)^{\ast}$.
Now $\gcd(a,n) = 1$ because else $a\cdot [m]_n = tn\cdot[m]_n = [0]_n \neq [1]_n$ right?
 
3:04 PM
@PaulPlummer no u
 
why is $a = tn$?
 
@BalarkaSen oho, that's not necessary, right
 
no, you should be doing this by contradiction
you have done it almost right, but forgot to say "otherwise"
 
meaning?
else = otherwise
 
3:08 PM
oh, didn't see that. you're doing fine, then. correct that $a = tn$ conclusion
 
but $\gcd(a,n) \neq 1$ does not imply $n | a$
 
yeah.
 
$$|a\cdot[m]_n| = \frac{|[m]_n|}{\gcd(a, |[m]_n|)}$$
Is that relevant here?
Oh, wait.
 
it doesn't make sense to take gcd of an element of $\Bbb N$ with an element of $\Bbb Z_n$
 
Order of an element.
 
3:13 PM
You a geometer? @BalarkaSen
 
oh.
 
Achha, was the idea I outlined earlier basically correct? I can't seem to make it work.
 
no, I am definitely not, @Paul.
oh, hell
[edit]$\Bbb Z/n$[/edit]
 
I have so much trouble with these elementary number theory proofs, goddamnit.
 
3:14 PM
I guess the litmus test does not work, or you are in denial @BalarkaSen
 
I guess it's just because I am thinking more geometry than algebra lately.
 
@BalarkaSen help.
 
your original idea was ok
 
Oh, I think it's done.
$$a\cdot [m]_n = \frac{an}{\gcd(a,n)}\cdot[m]_n = [1]_n \implies an\cdot[m] = [0]_n \neq \gcd(a,n)\cdot [1]_n$$
if the gcd is not 1
 
that no longer makes sense unless $t$ is invertible modulo $n$.
oh, but of course it is
 
3:19 PM
which makes it sort of circular.
 
it's alright, but better not make the division thing
 
it's wrong.
it fails even if the gcd = 1
 
oh, right, it is.
 
where's the mistake?
 
meh, just do $a = k_1 t$, $n = k_2 t$ where $t = \text{gcd}(a, n)$
then consider $k_2 \cdot a \cdot m \pmod{n}$
 
3:23 PM
i don't get it.
 
you understand the first line?
 
yeah.
why should the second line give me a contradiction?
 
then $k_2 \cdot a \cdot m \pmod{n} = k_2 \cdot k_1 \cdot t \cdot m \pmod{n} = (k_2 \cdot t) \cdot k_1 \cdot m \pmod{n} = n \cdot k_1 \cdot m \pmod{n} = 0 \pmod n$
 
oh oh oh
 
however, $k_2 \cdot a \cdot m \pmod{n} = k_2 \pmod{n}$
and $k_2$ is not a multiple of $n$ by definition.
 
3:26 PM
@BalarkaSen why's that?
I'm not at my best today lol
 
$a \cdot m \pmod{n} = 1 \pmod{n}$
 
oh, by assumption.
 
right
 
thanks
 
no prob
 
3:27 PM
what are you doing?
 
nothing.
 
what did you do all day? Hatcher?
linear algebra?
 
no, I studied some more linear algebra.
 
from? Artin?
 
I have to do schoolwork at some point of time, but I don't feel like it today (sore throat, etc)
 
3:28 PM
I like Axler.
 
@SohamChowdhury yes.
 
@BalarkaSen asthma + permanent shordi, yo
 
well, Artin goes through a lot of stuff pretty quickly.
haha
 
I didn't choose the thug life . . .
@BalarkaSen Until I find out what the Euler quote means, I'm not touching that book.
 
i don't do coding
 
3:32 PM
yeah, I guessed
but Haskell is puro category theory
 
I have to leave now, I think.
 
it's why I like Aluffi so much
ta ta
Oh, and this is who your bilinear form reminded me of.
 
Huy
4:01 PM
Hilbert?
 
No, a character in the comic strip Dilbert.
 
Huy
Hilbert?
 
does anyone know what a case study is in engineeering?
 
4:25 PM
I guess you look at an accident, see what they did wrong and learn how to prevent such things.
Like Tacoma Narrows?
 
There is an engineering stack exchange
 
@SohamChowdhury so what do you write on your case study ? :) how to prevent that?
 
@PaulPlummer i believe thats an inactive site....
 
@TheArtist I know nothing about engineering, just guessing
google Tacoma Narrows (or even the Challenger disaster)
 
4:27 PM
I don't think so, it is not as active as math.se @TheArtist
 
The second one is a common case study, I guess.
Should be, leastways.
 
@SohamChowdhury yes I'm trying to write a case study on the Challenger disaster.....
@SohamChowdhury but what do I write about it? how to prevent it?
 
Oh. Long ago, I did a course on Coursera where that was the final project, but I didn't complete it.
Wikipedia has a lot on the causes.
That should help.
 
@TheArtist That would be one approach to a case study, but I think in general it is just an analysis of what you are looking at, so you can look at things that lead to the failure if you want.
 
@PaulPlummer is there such a thing as analysis that leads to a success?
 
4:44 PM
I don't see why not. You could maybe look at a project and see why was it done on time and under budget, how is this working better than other solutions, how come this car is doing so well compared to other similar cars, etc.. It is probably less common, because I am guessing that most things that are successful were designed to work that way, and that was not unexpected success which I am guessing is when case studies would be interesting @TheArtist
I am also guessing that there is a lot of "mini case studies" for prototypes to see how they work in practice
see what was done well, see if there are unexpected problems or successes
 
@PaulPlummer Thank you very much :)
@PaulPlummer i think indian mars mission is a good example of a successful under budget project
 
5:02 PM
hello @Ted
 
hello, @Balarka
 
classification of quadrics are good stuff.
 
Back to completing the square :P
 
i guess those stuff are fundamental results in projective geometry?
/classical algebraic geometry, not sure.
 
Sure. Projectively, all nonsingular conics (curves) are equivalent over $\Bbb R$. But there are two different surfaces, again over $\Bbb R$. Over $\Bbb C$, they're all the same. [Emphasis on nonsingular.]
One of my favorite classic questions, @Balarka. You can do it using what we're talking about in a reasonably elementary way or you can do it using topology of the Grassmannian ("enumerative geometry"). How many lines meet 4 lines in $\Bbb P^3$ in general position?
 
5:08 PM
oops, sorry, my internet is doing off and on.
 
Did you see the five lines I just wrote you?
 
@TedShifrin Yeah, degenerate quadratics upto congruence are equivalent to quadrics on R^n upto isometries.
 
Who mentioned isometry?
But I'm more fond of the "how many lines meet 4 lines in general position?" question.
 
@TedShifrin uh, Artin.
let me read that question
I don't get it. What d'you mean by "general position"?
 
I mean "generic."
Mutually skew and not all lying on a quadric surface.
 
5:12 PM
oh, I see.
I'm having a hard time visualizing that.
 
Well, start off slowly. What is the locus of all lines meeting two skew lines? Three?
I'll check back later.
 
Hmm, I am starting to see it.
@TedShifrin $\Bbb P^1 \times \Bbb P^1$? I am not sure, but look : two skew lines span two copies of $\Bbb P^1$ inside $\Bbb P^3$, making a nonzero angle ('cause they're skew).
And now we are looking at lines which intersects both of these copies.
I haven't written down anything yet, but let me do that.
 
5:46 PM
Yes, I think it's $\Bbb P^1 \times \Bbb P^1$.
morning, @Mike
 
morning
 
i caught a bad kind of cold today
it was just a bit of sore throat in the morning, but now it's positively mucus-sy.
 
@BalarkaSen You mean using a handlebody decomposition? It's hard to parse what he means there. Certainly Heegaard diagrams are useful, in the sense that there's a thing that's useful for contact topology that has them in its definition. But I've never seen someone do much contact topology with a Heegaard decomposition. Open book decompositions are a more common tool.
 
hello, can someone help me to understand the last part of the answer of this: math.stackexchange.com/questions/1287412/…
 
@MikeMiller No, I mean there's a standard $\Delta$-complex structure on $S^3$ which is obtained from identifying opposite sides of a 3-simplex. This can be proved to be $S^3$ by cutting up the tetrahedra along a small square from the middle. I was fiddling a lot with this when trying to visualize the Hopf fibration. The guy sits right in front of me in prof's office, and he said that this is a good exercise in the sense that a lot of notions of contact topology emerges (roughly) from looking
at that square under $S^1$-action.
That's all I remember off the top of my head.
 
5:58 PM
I see. Not quite sure what he means, but interesting nonetheless.
 
He's a student of Etnyre : that's how I came to know that Etnyre was a famous symplectic topologist, to which Ted expressed his surprise during a discussion here.
 
Sure.
 
6:23 PM
lol yesterday I was dreaming of low dimensional topology and I have no idea what that means
lool
 
Goodnight, @MikeM.
hi @Karim ...
 
hi @TedShifrin
 
So, Balarka, any thoughts?
Ugh, poor @Balarka is sick yet again ... :(
 
Morning guys
 
M @leGrandDodo !
good afternoon, @Clarinetist
 
6:27 PM
@Ted Salut, j'ai un problème de géométrie intéressant pour toi
 
Ah oui? Lequel?
 
Let A be a convex polygon in the 2D plane. Let O be the center of mass of the polygon. If one draws a line that goes through O, does it split A in two polygons that have the same area ?
Je pense que la réponse est oui, mais je vois pas trop comment le prouver
 
Je m'en doute à moins que ce soit un polygone régulier.
 
I have been one day removed from actuarial science.
 
@Clarinetist: You're not going to do a reverse countdown every day now, are you?
 
6:29 PM
I might @TedShifrin and if I ever become a professor I will tell my students at the beginning of each lecture how many days it's been lol :P
 
Um, no, please don't.
 
Heh, k
Anyway, it's weird to think I'm not going back to work on Tuesday
Life is a much messier playing field than I thought it would be when I was still in my undergrad
Now if only I could find a (not-so-expensive) hobby
 
Anyone know google docs?
 
@leGrand: Isn't it false even for an equilateral triangle?
 
I kinda do @N3buchadnezzar . What about it?
 
6:37 PM
Having trouble formating a spreadsheet
 
@N3buchadnezzar More details?
 
@Ted very likely (drawing a line parallel to one of the edges)
 
I am trying to get a range of values E3:E6, however the number 6 is a variable defined in another cell.
 
Yes, @LeGrand: Then you get a 4:5 ratio.
 
@N3buchadnezzar If you're not using relative references, I would suggest using $E$3:$E$6. I would also discourage you from using numeric names for variables.
 
6:39 PM
TRANSPOSE(E3:EA2) obviously does not work :p
 
I would support what @Clarinetist just said.
@LeGrand: It follows by continuity that it very rarely bisects.
 
@TedShifrin this
 
I didn't even know Excel/Google Docs allowed for numeric naming of cells...
By the way, I heard that SQL Server 2016 is to include R. I have a feeling that will turn out awful.
 
So there's a two-parameter family of lines meeting each of the two skew lines. Can you see that they cover all of $\Bbb P^3$, @Balarka? ... Now, what about the locus of all lines meeting three pairwise skew lines?
 
Actually, Excel doesn't allow numeric naming. So it must be a Google Docs problem.
 
6:43 PM
What d'you mean by "they cover all of $\Bbb P^3$?"
 
@TedShifrin what about the converse: is there a polygon such that any line that goes through the center of mass splits the polygon in two sides with equal areas? If that is not true, are there closed curves other than the circle that have this property ?
 
Every point of $\Bbb P^3$ lies on (at least one) line meeting each of the two fixed lines, @Balarka.
 
@Clarinetist Heya. sorry the problem was the other way around could i do $A$3 where 3 is constant and A is variable?
 
@N3buchadnezzar If you're just referencing cell A3, it shouldn't be a problem
@N3buchadnezzar Never mind, I'm wrong
 
@LeGrandDODOM Isn't that closely related to Borsuk-Ulam or something?
 
6:45 PM
@N3buchadnezzar Excel gave me an error when I did that
 
This sounds like a nice integral geometry problem, @LeGrand.
 
Yeah, I'll post this as a question
 
@N3buchadnezzar Okay, what I would say is put at least 2 characters in your variable names.
 
There are wonderful curves of constant breadth, @leGrandDodo, like the Wankel engine shape, but I doubt it's true for them (other than a circle). I'll think about it.
 
@N3buchadnezzar If you want to play it really safely, make sure you have at least 3.
 
6:47 PM
@Clarinetist I am basically trying to sum up the values from A3:*3 where * is some letter given. should the colums have different names?
 
OH I See
 
Oh, no, that was the Ham-Sandwich theorem
 
@N3buchadnezzar Is your value * in a cell?
Hmm... there is such a thing as the Ham-Sandwich theorem.
 
I wondered what you were thinking of, @Balarka.
 
learned something new
 
6:48 PM
Yes, @Clarinetist. It's a nice generalization of the intermediate value theorem.
 
Right, I forgot the name. OK, let's get back to your problem.
 
@Clarinetist :p I think I will just go back to latex. I was trying to transpose a row of values, but when I did not specify the endpoint it threw me an error. The values were just zeros.
 
@N3buchadnezzar I'm pretty sure it can be done as long as you have the value * in a cell.
@N3buchadnezzar If your value * is in cell B2, do =SUM(INDIRECT("A4:"&B2&"4")) and this will sum all from cells A4 to cell *4
 
@TedShifrin is there a more proper terminology than "center of mass of a closed curve" ?
 
@TedShifrin I am not sure if I see that. I'll think about it after I finish eating. Excuse me if I am being silly, but I rarely think about these stuff. The word "projective space" naturally reminds me of the cell structure instead of Gr(1, k).
 
6:56 PM
@Clarinetist That worked thanks, somewhat convoluted .p
 
@N3buchadnezzar Yeah, basic idea is that INDIRECT([STRING]) turns [STRING] into a cell reference, and then you go ahead and SUM over the cell reference
& is concatenation in Excel
 
Great to know! I have very limited experience with excel and word, now we use it a fair bit on group projects and organization. Hence I must know the very basics of it :p It finaly worked, so thanks a bunch =)
 
No problem. @N3buchadnezzar Feel free to ask questions whenever you feel like it. I just left an actuarial job where I was using Excel and Access every day, so I'm quite familiar with them
 

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