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3:09 PM
Hi @Pedro
 
@infinitesimal Fiddling and faddling.
Hello, Bal.
 
Not really, no.
I mean, I guess it can be made to work but that's not a proof.
 
Yeah, sure, I haven't proved it. It was just an idea.
I actually have no idea how to prove that if $U \subset \Bbb R^2$ is not homeomorphic to any convex subspace of $\Bbb R^2$ then $U$ has nonzero genus.
 
3:24 PM
This snake map sucks.
 
@BalarkaSen Please.
 
I don't understand this map well enough to work with it, thus this expression
 
@BalarkaSen I don't understand what you mean by "I don't understand this map."
 
for anyone who's knowledgeable about cholesky decomposition, i've got a question which i suspect has an easy answer
suppose I've got a matrix in cholesky form $V^T V$ with $V$ lower-triangular with unit diagonal elements
can one compute the matrix square root of $V^T V$ easily in terms of $V$?
 
@PedroTamaroff I have been trying to figure this one out for ages and I reckon I can't do it since I don't understand the geometric picture behind the snake map : Consider the homology long exact sequence of $(\Sigma_g, A)$ where $A$ is the punctured torus the rest of $\Sigma_{g-1}$ is squashed with. The sequence gives $0 \to H_2(A) \to H_2(\Sigma_g) \to H_2(\Sigma_{g-1}) \stackrel{\delta}{\to} H_1(A) \to H_1(\Sigma_g) \to H_1(\Sigma_{g-1}) \to 0$.
The whole thing will come down nicely if I could prove $\delta = 0$, but I have no idea how to do this.
 
3:33 PM
(my main interest is in the eigenvalues of that square-root)
 
Once one knows $\delta = 0$, noting that $H_2(A) = 0$ and $H_2(A) = \Bbb Z^2$, we can prove $H_2(\Sigma_g) \cong H_2(\Sigma_{g-1}) \cong \cdots \cong \Bbb Z$ and $H_1(\Sigma_g) \cong H_1(\Sigma_{g-1}) \oplus \Bbb Z^2 \cong \cdots \cong \Bbb Z^{2g}$
There are a few more instances of the troublesome snake map, but I guess this one suffices.
 
@BalarkaSen You wrote $H_2(A)=0$ and $H_2(A)=\Bbb Z^2$.
I assume it is $H_1(A)=\Bbb Z^2$.
 
Should have said $H_1(A) = \Bbb Z^2$
 
OK.
@BalarkaSen Do you understand how the snake map works on a SEC of complexes?
How the LES is obtained?
 
The long exact sequence? Sure.
 
3:37 PM
Do you know any conditions on a diagram that ensure the boundary map is cero?
For example, say I have a snake diagram.
.......... A --- B --- C ---> 0
.......... |......|......|
...0---> A'---B' ---C'
DRATS.
 
LOL
Yeah, I get it.
 
The snake map comes down from the kernel of C --> C' to the cokernel of A --> A'
 
Yes. But there are conditions on this diagram to ensure this map is 0.
For example, can you see what happens to the map if the map B'--->C' is onto?
Trace down the steps.
 
Let me recall the construction of the map.
Let's pick something in the kernel of the last map. $x$.
 
3:42 PM
You don't have to tell me the construction of the map.
 
OK, OK.
I am trying to remember it.
Give me a minute.
 
@robjohn I think I might be interpreting the plots in your answer incorrectly. Does it show that if you're on $W_{0}$ and circle around $z = - \frac{1}{e}$, you can actually end up on either $W_{-1}$ or $W_{1}$?
 
OK, @Pedro, so essentially you have to pick something in the kernel, pullback via B --> C, pushdown to B', checking that it pushes to 0 via B' --> C' and then pullback via A' --> B'.
 
Now you want me to look at B' --> C'.
If it's onto, the element you pushed via B ---> B' is zero.
 
3:47 PM
Because?
I know it is not too hard.
 
Actually, I don't think so.
If B' --> C' is onto, it's not necessary that the element is zero.
 
Let me check.
@BalarkaSen Call the upper maps $\alpha,\beta$, the lower maps $\alpha',\beta'$; the midle maps $f,g,h$.
Yes?
 
4:04 PM
OK.
Right.
 
Well?
 
I am not seeing it.
How does that prove $g\beta^{-1} : \ker h \to B'$ is zero?
 
nope nope nope nope nope
 
Like that's a big help...
I am not entirely sure that the condition you're talking about is enough to ensure the snake map is zero, @Pedro, but I am going to think about it. I have to go now.
 
@MikeMiller Hello.
 
4:18 PM
@infinitesimal The two forces should be $$\overrightarrow{F}_1=\frac{F}{2}(-\overrightarrow{i}-\overrightarrow{j}) \\ \overrightarrow{F}_2=\frac{F}{2}(\overrightarrow{i}-\overrightarrow{j})$$

How do we get this result??
 
@MaryStar The force along the slope is $\vec F \sin \theta$ and perpendicular to that is $\vec F \cos \theta$ where $\theta$ is the angle made with the horizontal.
 
@ParthKohli Ok... But for example at $\overrightarrow{F}_1=\frac{F}{2}(-\overrightarrow{i}-\overrightarrow{j})$ how do we get the vector $-\overrightarrow{i}-\overrightarrow{j}$ ??
 
4:33 PM
@MaryStar The x-axis has not been defined to be along the slope.
 
I got stuck right now...Could you explain it further to me?? @ParthKohli
 
We know that the magnitudes of the two vectors are $F/\sqrt{2}$. Our job is half-done. Now we just need to find the direction vectors for both of them.
Looking at your answer, these guys have defined the negative y-axis to be along the force.
 
And how can we find the direction vectors?? @ParthKohli
 
Now what's the direction vector perpendicular to the slope? Hint: it makes an angle of 45 deg with the -y and +x axes.
Plot a vector with magnitude 1 making an angle 45 degrees with -y and +x axes. Resolve it into its individual components.
Then multiply that direction vector to the magnitude of the force.
 
@RandomVariable $\mathrm{W}_0$ is the red sheet in all the images. However, all three sheets meet at $-\frac1e$, though the branch cut between $\mathrm{W}_{-1}$ and $\mathrm{W}_1$ contains $-\frac1e$ so that point is in the interior of neither of the blue or green sheets.
@RandomVariable sorry, I was IAW working on an answer.
 
4:56 PM
I got stuck right now.. Do we take the axis at the position where the object is??

Is the following sketch correct?? @ParthKohli
Or do we not take there the axis?? @ParthKohli
 
@MaryStar $F_y$ is counteracted by the resistance of the inclined plane. $F_x$ has a magnitude $F/\sqrt2$
 
Why is $F_y$ counteracted by the resistance of the inclined plane??

And which is the direction vector of $F_x$ ?? @robjohn
 
@MaryStar The plane can only provide a force perpendicular to itself.
@MaryStar You have the direction of $F_x$ on your diagram
 
5:14 PM
But as it is now, is the direction vector of $F_x$ : $-\overrightarrow{i}-\overrightarrow{j}$ ?? @robjohn
 
@BalarkaSen I'm sorry, what I was telling you was poop.
 
@MaryStar I guess; if $\vec{i}$ and $\vec{j}$ are horizontal and vertical
 
If the map $\beta'$ is onto, this entails the sequence you obtain by the snake map ends with a $0$, and if $\alpha$ is one one, it starts with a $0$.
 
5:33 PM
is it always true that $f(A^c)=f(A)^c$?
for any function and any set $A$?
 
what if $f$ is the constant map?
say, $f: \Bbb R \to \Bbb R$, $f(x)=0$
 
@robjohn The plots show only 2 of the sheets meeting at $z= - \frac{1}{e}$. But you just said that all 3 sheets meet there. Did you mean that all 3 branches meet there?
 
is it possible to store (1 + 1/2 + 1/32 = 1/64) x 2^-128 in a normalized IEEE 754 floating point number?
I know it is in denormalized
 
@DanielFischer That bug from yesterday fixed itself.
 
5:49 PM
@RandomVariable That's good. If it occurs again, we should probably report it.
 
@RandomVariable there are two sheets that meet there, but at that point the one sheet is a split between $\mathrm{W}_1$ and $\mathrm{W}_{-1}$
 
@PedroTamaroff Right, I was kind of having the feeling that was going to be the case.
 
At any rate I think it is hopeless to try to think of the snake map as something geometric in every case.
 
Perhaps. But I need to prove somehow that the snake map is zero in the example I wrote.
 
why do you need to do that?
 
5:54 PM
@MikeMiller professor did so in class and I obviously wasn't paying attention/
i have to rederive it
 
Well, you can do that if you show the map $f$ from $H_1(A)$ to $H_1(\Sigma_g)$ is one one. Of course that's an iff, since ${\rm im}\delta=\ker f$.
 
Why do you have to rederive it?
It seems to me you could live a happy life without doing so.
 
0
Q: Find solution $\phi$ that satifies the differential equations and has a specific form

evindaI am looking at the following exercise: Let $I=(0,1)$. Find the solution $\phi$ that has a continuous derivative in $\mathbb{R}$ and satisfies : $$y''=0 \text{ in } I \\y''+k^2y=0 \text{ apart from } I, \text{ where } k>0$$ and furthermore $\phi$ has the form: $\phi(x)=\left\{\begin{matrix} ...

 
because i believe what he did was something close to geometric
 
Could you take a look at my question?
 
5:55 PM
Are you physically compelled to follow geometric things?
 
and i want to visualize the shit of homology.
:P
 
I think you should take a vacation and go for a hike. Marvel in the geometry of nature.
 
@BalarkaSen Can you give me an explicit description of the map from $H_1(A)$ to $H_1(\Sigma_g)$? You take the class of a closed chain in $A$ and what do you do to it?
 
thanks @MikeMiller
 
5:56 PM
@RandomVariable Don't look at the $\mathrm{W}_{\text{blue}}$ and $\mathrm{W}_{\text{green}}$ plots. They are connected, but not smooth
 
@user In general it won't be true. First off, your map would have to be surjective, but even then that's not sufficient.
 
@PedroTamaroff inclusion
 
@BalarkaSen Well, can you show it is injective?
 
it is obviously so
 
@PedroTamaroff Can you institute a ban on the word obvious?
 
5:58 PM
@MikeMiller I could try to.
@BalarkaSen Err... then why don't you know that $\delta=0$?
Also, careful.
 
Seems like you could just ban everyone who says it for increasingly draconian punishment times.
 
@balarkasen: mèdeis ageômetrètos eisitô mou tèn stegèn seems like a pretty good motto for you :)
 
The inclusion map of say the homology of $S^1$ inside the homology of $D^1$ is not injective. So you need to argue why it is injective.
 
oh, right.
so it was not obvious
but i don't want to do it that way, Pedro. i want to think of the snake map alone.
 
@BalarkaSen That's silly. There's context here. You need to use that.
You told me $A$ is a punctured torus?
 
6:01 PM
yes
 
And how do you get it inside $\Sigma_g$?
 
chop off the end with one hole : that's your A.
 
I'm not following.
Can you be more precise?
 
Hey @DanielFischer @robjohn!!! Could you take a look at this? math.stackexchange.com/questions/1166738/…
 
no. i don't want to do it this way. being idiotically stubborn
 
6:02 PM
I am picturing a sphere with $g$ handles. Where do I place the punctured torus?
 
@PedroTamaroff $\Sigma_g$ is the connected sum of $g$ tori. $A$ is one of these tori (after removing the embedded disc to form the connected sum.)
 
@PedroTamaroff take a handle and take bits of the sphere.
 
@MikeMiller OK. Perfect.
Well, @BalarkaSen.
Suppose you have a closed chain in $A$ and that it is homologous to $0$ in $\Sigma_g$. You have to show it is homologous to $0$ in $A$. Can you do this?
 
reluctant
 
The only "problem" a priori is the hole in the torus.
Well, if you do this you're done.
 
6:06 PM
sure, i am equivalently also done if i just cellular homology out of this. but that's not the point.
i want to understand the snake map.
 
ps: you realize Hatcher explicitly describes what $\delta$ does...?
 
@BalarkaSen Dropping words hardly helps. Work with what you got.
 
i am not fussing about homology of the genus g surface, @Pedro.
 
I never said that.
 
@BalarkaSen: Relative homology classes are represented by relative cycles $\alpha \in C^n(X)$ such that $\partial \alpha \in C^{n-1}(A)$. Then $\partial [\alpha] = [\partial \alpha]$.
If you inductively know an explicit description of $H^n(\Sigma_g, A)$, it should not be terribly difficult to calculate the boundary map using the above.
 
6:13 PM
@robjohn The function $f(z)=\frac{z}{z-a}$ is given and I have to prove that the image of the unit circle with center the origin is also a circle with center the point $(\frac{1}{1-a^2},0)$. Any hints?
 
@user159870 try considering the mapping $g(z)=\frac{z-a}{z}$ first.
 
@Semiclassical What do you mean??? What do I have to do with this function???
 
$g(z)$ is just the reciprocal of $f(z)$
so the image of the first is just an inversion through the origin of the second
what i'm really trying to get at is that it often helps to think of a complicated complex mapping as a sequence of simpler ones.
 
@Semiclassical I haven't understood how this helps. I need further explanation :)
@Semiclassical It is asked to show that the unit circle with center the origin is also a circle. So is f(z) a circle???
 
6:40 PM
Anyone here willing to take a look at a question?
 
The function $f(z)=\frac{z}{z-a}$ is given and I have to prove that the image of the unit circle with center the origin is also a circle with center the point $(\frac{1}{1-a^2},0)$. @Axoren
Do you have an idea???
 
@user159870 inversion ($z\mapsto1/z$) and translation ($z\mapsto z+a$) preserve circles.
 
@robjohn Could you explain it further???
@robjohn So if we zet z to something else f(z) will again be a circle?
 
@robjohn Which lemma do you mean???
 
6:49 PM
@user159870 Theorem 2.1
 
@Axoren Thanks. I had to look that up, but you beat me to it :-)
 
@robjohn It's really interesting, I never would have though of handling user159870's question so simply.
 
@user159870 $f(z)$ is a composition of inversions and a translation, so it preserves circles.
 
I was considering applying it to the equation $x^2 + y^2 = 1$.
 
@Axoren @robjohn Is Q f(z) and P (0,0)???
 
6:52 PM
@user159870 The center is not mapped to the center
 
P is (1/(1-a^2),0) ?
 
@robjohn Not to sound obtuse, but were you explaining why my interpretation was correct or why it was not correct?
 
@user159870 What happens to the center point $(0, 0)$ when you apply that function to it?
 
@Axoren I am mixed up. Which function? ip?
 
@Mike @Pedro I think it was about exploiting the naturality. Probably using the commutative square at the snake maps induced by $(\Sigma_g, A) \subset (B, S^1)$ where B is genus $g-1$ surface minus a disk. Essentially it boils down to the zeroness of $H_2(B) \to H_1(S^1)$
 
6:54 PM
@user159870 $f(z)$
 
@Axoren You mean that we set z=x+yi and set x=y=0?
 
@RandomVariable I had introduced the blue and green versions of W only because they made things nicer along the negative real axis, but W is not smooth there anyway, so we might as well not worry about looking nice there and put the branch cut there.
@RandomVariable The definitions for the sheets of W are fine as defined everywhere.
@RandomVariable However, The two sheets meet at the branch cut and the point $-\frac1e$ is on that branch cut.
 
I guess it can be proved by proving that $H_1(S^1) \to H_1(B)$ is injective, where $B$ is a genus $g-1$ surface minus a disk.
 
@user159870 The unit circle is centered at $(0, 0)$, correct? So, we are aware that the image of this unit circle is a circle which is not-necessarily unit. However, it's necessarily a circle, so it has an origin. When you apply that map to the unit circle, it's origin should map to its new origin.
 
@Axoren Is the image of a circle always a circle? How do we apply that map to the unit circle? I am mixed up.
 
7:00 PM
@user159870 By the paper @robjohn presented, you can be sure that inversions and translations preserve circleness.
So, your function $f(z) = \frac {z} {z - a}$ can be seen as a composition of translations and inversions.
 
@user159870 You can do it by steps. In general, analyze what happens to circles under inversion.
That's the only nontrivial part.
Translations and homothethies are easy.
 
http://math.stackexchange.com/q/1166199/187120
Anyone want to take a crack at this?
 
I have no idea about that.
Sorry.
 
But it's weird, right?
 
I have no idea.
 
7:04 PM
I think I've found some phantom functions that don't exist.
Or I've found some phantom forms that don't exist.
 
@Axoren @PedroTamaroff Is it the only way?
 
@user159870 I think it is a very convenient way of doing things.
 
@user159870 You can do it by brute force, plugging into the equations, but it can get messy.
 
@user159870 It's a much easier way than proving that there's a point $c$ for which every point in the image lies equidistant from it and then proving that that point is $\left(\frac{1}{1-a^2}, 0\right)$
 
@user159870 Once you know it is a circle, you just need to find antipodal points and average them to get the center.
 
7:11 PM
@PedroTamaroff @robjohn @Axoren I am mixed up. How can we write the function $f(z) = \frac {z} {z - a}$ as a composition of translations and inversions???
 
@user159870 $$\frac{z}{z-a}=\frac1{1-\frac az}$$
 
aka the thing i suggested earlier :)
 
@robjohn so we set $z=\frac{1}{z}$
 
@user159870 A circle is also preserved under scaling by a constant.
 
@Axoren how does it help?
 
7:13 PM
IF centered at 0.
 
@robjohn is this translation or inversion?
 
@user159870 That is first an inversion ($z\mapsto1/z$), followed by a scale ($z\mapsto-az$), followed by a translation ($z\mapsto1+z$), followed by an inversion ($z\mapsto1/z$)
 
@user159870 $z \mapsto \frac 1 z$ is an inversion.
@user159870 $\frac 1 z \mapsto \frac a z$ is scaling by a constant while centered at 0.
$\frac a z \mapsto 1 - \frac a z$ is translation.
 
@Axoren Does the function $\frac1{1-\frac az}$ represent the unit circle ?
 
@user159870 That is $f(z)$, but applied to a circle, it will yield a circle or a line (a circle with infinite radius)
 
7:16 PM
It depends on $a$ whether or not the circle is unit, but it is guaranteed to be a circle.
Unity comes from whether or not the distance between each point and the origin is $1$.
 
@Axoren @robjohn Do we have to make all of them?
$z \mapsto \frac 1 z$ is an inversion



$\frac 1 z \mapsto \frac a z$ is scaling by a constant while centered at 0.


$\frac a z \mapsto 1 - \frac a z$ is translation
 
@user159870 I left off the last composed function, from that last one, how do you get to $f(z)$?
 
@Axoren depends on whether a line counts as a circle (i.e. the $a=\pm 1$ cases)
 
@Semiclassical That's just a circle with an origin at infinity :P
 
i.e. just another great circle on the riemann sphere, heh
 
7:19 PM
3 mins ago, by robjohn
@user159870 That is $f(z)$, but applied to a circle, it will yield a circle or a line (a circle with infinite radius)
 
^Yup. Infinite origin.
 
woops, yep
 
There is even an animation in this answer
 
@Axoren I am really mixed up. Is the center of the circle that is represented bu z/(z-a) (0,0))????
 
another animation i like is from this page: ima.umn.edu/~arnold/moebius
 
7:23 PM
and do we find the image with inversions and translations????? @robjohn @Axoren
 
@user159870 $f(z)$ doesn't represent a circle. It represents a transformation that preserves circleness. When we apply that transformation to every point on the unit circle, (when we take the image of the circle over that function), we get a new circle.
The reason we know it's a circle is because the transformation involves a sequence of steps and each of those steps by themselves will turn a circle into another circle.
 
@Axoren So with the function we want to find the image of the unit circle that is also the wanted circle/????
 
@user159870 Correct, the wanted circle is the image of the unit circle over that function.
 
And can we make any transformation we want?
 
@user159870 You already have the transformation $f(z)$. This is the transformation you want.
 
7:27 PM
@Axoren How do we find the image??????
 
@robjohn My question was, "Does it [the plot] show that if you're on $W_{0}$ and circle around $z=−\frac{1}{e}$, you can actually end up on either $W_{−1}$ or $W_{1}$?" You didn't respond with either a "yes" or a "no." And that's leading to quite a bit of confusion on my part.
 
@user159870 The definition of the image is as follows, which might be what you've been missing this whole time. Given a set $S$ which is a subset of $X$ and a function $f : X \to Y$, then $f(S)$ is the image of $S$ over the function $f$. $f(S) = \{\ f(x)\ |\ x \in S\ \}$
The image is just the set of all the possible outputs if you choose every possible input from your starting set.
So, the set of all possible inputs for the unit circle is just every point that lies on the boundary of the circle.
 
@user159870 $\frac{z}{z-a}$ takes $\frac{a}{|a|}\mapsto\frac1{1-|a|}$ and $-\frac{a}{|a|}\mapsto\frac1{1+|a|}$
That's two points on the circle
 
@Axoren @robjohn So is f(z) the image of the unit circle with center the origin?
 
@user159870 $f(z)$ is a transformation, $f(U)$ is the image of the unit circle over $f$ where $U$ is the set of points on the unit circle.
 
7:35 PM
@user159870 $f$ is a function that maps circles to circles, and you want to map the unit circle with center $(0,0)$.
 
If I need to find the relative error in f(x_a) where f(x) = log(x) and X_a = 1.473 where would I start?
I found the error of f(x_a) to be 3.394 * 10^-6
 
@robjohn How can we map the unit circle with center $(0,0)$? The argument of the function is z.
 
with |f(x_t) - f(x_a)| <= .5 * 10^-5
 
@user159870 We're talking about the unit circle in the complex plane, aren't we? $(0, 0)$ is just the complex number $0 + i0 = 0$
 
@user159870 Note the the map $\frac{z}{z-a}$ maps the line $at$ where $t\in\mathbb{R}$ to the reals.
 
7:42 PM
@robjohn so z=at?
 
@user159870 no $at$ is a line where $t\in\mathbb{R}$
 
Hi @rob Chris is not here today.
 
What do we take as argument of the function to show that the image of the unit circle with center the origin is also a circle with center the point (1/(1-a^2),0)????
 
@user159870 since the line $at$ intersects the unit circle with center at $(0,0)$, at right angles and analytic functions are conformal, the $\mathbb{R}$ must intersect the image of the circle at right angles.
That is why I computed the points above ($\frac1{1-|a|}$ and $\frac1{1+|a|}$). they are antipodal points of the resultant circle.
 
@robjohn I am lost. Do we just need to show that f is an inversion map????
What are antipodal points????
 
7:47 PM
@RandomVariable sorry... I will append my answer in a bit.
@user159870 we know that the circle is mapped to a circle, if we can find two antipodal points, their average is the center of the circle
@user159870 we have two antipodal points: $\frac1{1-|a|}$ and $\frac1{1+|a|}$ and their average is $\frac1{1-|a|^2}$ so that is the center of the unit circle after $f$
@user159870 from the answer you said you wanted to get, I assume that $a\in\mathbb{R}$. The answer I gave works for any $a\in\mathbb{C}$
@user159870 are you still lost?
 
I am still lost.
 
@ABeautifulMind one at a time, sorry ;-)
 

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