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1:17 PM
Hi @Beni
 
1:34 PM
@robjohn And then we'll die
 
@AsafKaragila There is little room for play in the mobile app $\stackrel{\circ\ \circ}{\frown}$$\Huge\unicode{x2639}$
 
@robjohn Sad.
Boohoo.
 
Never mind "undefined".
@robjohn I wonder why I can't make this guy work.
 
1:51 PM
@Matt Do you get $\unicode{x1F62D}$
 
No, it says "undefined".
 
😭
 
@Matt That's what mine says, except it gives the last 4 hex characters in a box
 
Yes, same here.
 
Apparently MathJax's \unicode can't do any of the faces...
 
2:01 PM
@JM It can do $\Huge\unicode{x263A}$ and $\Huge\unicode{x2639}$
I think that MathJax can't do unicode above 16 bits
 
Ah, I think you're right. You'd think they'd mention that in the docs...
 
🁀
 
Probably because Java can't do unicode over 12 bits.
 
@AsafKaragila That depends on the implementation
 
@robjohn Of course. I'm talking about the usual "Your mother" implementation. :-)
 
2:06 PM
Here is a 15 bit unicode char: $\unicode{x4460}$
and it renders fine
 
Nope.
 
It does for me
 
For me too.
 
I get one of those boxes with letters.
 
Doesn't render for me.
 
2:08 PM
 
That is not what I see.
 
Perhaps the fonts on your computer do not cover that range
@Matt: are you on a Mac or a PC?
 
@robjohn Mac, of course. And I'd guess who ever can't see the character is not a Mac. : )
 
@Matt that's what I was trying to determine.
 
I'll go back home and see if it works on the Lunix.
 
2:11 PM
@AsafKaragila As in "loony-cs"? : ) Is that your OS?
 
@Matt It's a bash.org old joke.
 
@AsafKaragila That must've been before my time.
 
How old are you?
 
Somewhere between 25 and 30.
 
And how many years are you on the internets?
 
2:13 PM
I don't really know.
 
Hehe, Lunix...
 
We're about the same age, I've been on the internet for 14 years now. Lots of time on the IRC...
 
...now what are the odds that Asaf and Matt are around the same age...
 
I'll be 27 in a couple of months.
 
I never used IRC.
 
2:16 PM
Shame.
 
IRC's a bit of an acquired taste, even then...
 
Here is a 16 bit unicode character: $\unicode{x8080}$
 
This one works just fine.
 
looks fine to me.
 
Ah, that shows up here.
 
2:20 PM
This is the highest 16-bit unicode character defined on my computer: $\unicode{xFFFD}$
White question mark in a black diamond
It's called the "Replacement Character"
 
Is it a schema of letters, like the Replacement Axiom Schema?
 
All characters over 16 bits show up as undefined
 
2:38 PM
@AsafKaragila Is there a way to find out whether a model of ZFC is transitive or not?
 
@Matt Internally, externally?
Every model thinks he is transitive, just like every model thinks he's well founded.
 
What does "thinks" mean? I need to look up what you mean by "internally/externally".
 
If $V$ is a model of ZFC then $V\models x\in y\rightarrow x\in V$, it does not know about things which make it intransitive.
 
Shouldn't transitive be $x \in y \rightarrow x \subset y$ in symbols?
 
What does it mean that $V$ is transitive? It means that a subset is also an element.
Another way to say that is to say that if $y\in V$ and $x\in y$ then $x\in V$.
However if $V$ "sees" $x\in y$ then it thinks that $x\in V$. It is possible to have a model with some $y$ and some element of $y$ that $V$ doesn't know about, but we do (externally).
Consider the following case, which may be easier to understand.
$V=(V,E)$ is a model of ZFC (which is an element of the universe $M$), take a countable ultraproduct of $V$.
The result is a model $V^*$ of ZFC, but this model is ill-founded in $M$.
However $V^*$ does not know about the decreasing $x_{n+1}\in x_n$ which lives in $V^*$.
$M$, however knows about this sequence so $M$ can tell us that $V^*$ is ill-founded.
I'm going to see if my advisor is free. Be back later.
 
2:57 PM
See you later Asaf! And thanks...
 
@Matt I was just looking out of the window and thought that you'll like this :)
 
@tb I was just in the kitchen making a hot chocolate looking out the window and thinking about sending you another ping to look out the window : )
 
Well, it's far from enough to be staying. This morning at around 6 there was a little mousse covering the green in front of my house, but it was gone quickly when dawn came.
 
3:13 PM
Realistically, there will be no trace of snow by Wednesday or so. But oh well. It's not like I go skiing or anything, I just like it because it makes things go quiet.
 
3:44 PM
The next Sherlock Holmes is supposed to be out on 1st of January. Yay : )
 
QED
29
Q: Proving you *can't* make $2011$ out of $1,2,3,4$: nice twist on the usual

Kevin BuzzardAn undergraduate was telling me about a puzzle he'd found: the idea was to make $2011$ out of the numbers $1, 2, 3, 4, \ldots, n$ with the following rules/constraints: the numbers must stay in order, and you can only use $+$, $-$, $*$, $/$, ^ and $!$. In words, "plus minus times divide, exponenti...

Hi
Here's a good theorem to prove with the computer proof checking tools.
If you're interested in/leaning about automatic proofs.
 
@Matt What does that mean? I thought Conan-Doyle died a long time ago.
 
4:01 PM
@tb Never mind Doyle! For maximum awesome click here. : )
 
@Matt Oh, didn't know about that, looks good! I like Steven Moffat's work quite a bit, so I should check it out when it's available. Thanks for the link
 
@tb Well season one is out and iirc I watched it online somewhere, so... : )
 
Got it :)
 
4:38 PM
Hmm.
I could not find much on Cohen's second model.
Nor I had the time to meddle with it on my own. I'll do that now.
 
4:57 PM
Hi 8-).
 
Hi Jonas.
 
5:09 PM
Does anyone know a good book that gives exercises to improve concentration, reading speed and memory? Those are for me at least above average but improvement or slowing down decay is always great :-). The books I find are full of scary buzz words.
 
@JonasTeuwen Have you tried looking at productivity.SE?
 
We even have a SE for that? 8-)!
 
(I don't know what's there, but maybe there's something useful)
You're not alone :)
 
Short question what does $$\text{proj}_w u$$ mean ? (I know that $u=(-2,0,4)$ and $w=(2,-5,-5)$)
 
5:13 PM
@JonasTeuwen I hear meditation does the trick. I've not verified the claim though.
 
Well, it helps a bit. But there is probably much more effect in changing my work habits.
 
@tb Can you try and help me locate a decent reference for Cohen's second model of ZF? Jech's presentation is cumbersome and I can't find it anywhere else.
 
@tb Thanks for the link! That website is great.
 
@AsafKaragila At the moment I find only links involving Ali G
 
5:30 PM
hello :)
 
Hello there.
 
Does anyone know about any connections between harmonic analysis and ergodic theory? 8-).
 
5:45 PM
(not much to do with harmonic analysis, though)
 
Too little estimates.
I'll check it out, first I'm reading about productivity 8-).
 
Wow. Herrlich's book on AC is awesome.
It's just a long collection of how bad things break without the axiom of choice.
Then a list of how bad things break when the axiom of choice is present.
 
6:05 PM
Is there a list of good things that break when AC is present?
 
I only read a few bits from that book, but I like his style. I found several of the proofs very elegantly written. I also have to say that professor Herlich is very nice as a person. In this case the name describes the man perfectly: de.wiktionary.org/wiki/herrlich
 
I also like the fact that some minor things that I have done are not mentioned there. It means that I'm actually doing new stuff ;-)
 
@MartinSleziak Just a note on usage. Herrlich is almost never (if ever) applied to persons. You would describe an excellent meal, the weather or a landscape as herrlich, but not a person.
 
ok, I learn some German here, too
 
Can I say that the book of Herrlich is herrlich?
 
6:15 PM
I don't even need to go to german.SE
 
In which case, I may suggest to say that Herrlich is hereditarily Herrlich! :-)
 
Well, it would strike me as somewhat bizarre. I think it is safe to say that herrlich is applied only to sensual experiences.
 
Hmpf! Cohen doesn't even construct his second model in the original papers. He only mentions the result.
Help me, MathSciNet!!
 
I think I've never used the word either in spoken or written language so I'd classify it as archaic.
 
Argh. So it's completely impossible to flip through the books in google books now, eh?
@tb Help me Mr. Librarian: MR0195710 is impossible to find anywhere :\
 
6:28 PM
Aces. I'm forced to do a seminar next term and I get to choose between numerical analysis, probability or statistics. Or "Representation theory of associative algebras" but given the lecturers it'd rather commit seppuku.
 
@Matt Seppuku it is!
 
@AsafKaragila : D Or I'll wait and see if I can find something at uni.
Crap. Futile Attempts II is done by the same lecturer. T_T
 
@Matt Can't you come as a transfer student here? The wonderful summer heat will do you some good :-P
 
@AsafKaragila Doesn't seem to be available anywhere online. However, have you seen this?
 
@AsafKaragila What lectures do they offer there next term? I think I don't want to miss out on Algebraic Topology II.
 
6:36 PM
@tb Yes, I went through that very file today, couldn't find much. I'll look again. It's a general chapter about forcing extensions.
@Matt Representation theory, algebraic groups, algebraic geometric, Riemannian manifolds (or something similar) and axiomatic set theory.
 
@AsafKaragila Doesn't sound too bad but I also need to do a seminar : /
Never mind. : )
Are you in Tel Aviv?
 
@AsafKaragila Okay, I give up, I can't find anything of relevance.
The only thing I found that you might want to look at is the references in the Howard-Rubin list for model M7. But Google doesn't let me look there, so...
 
@Matt You can join any of the seminars here. We have about many different topics. I will give a lecture about that question I recently answered regarding second countability and Lindolef-ness without the axiom of choice.
@tb Which H-R?
 
@AsafKaragila this one
(the list)
 
There are several lists :-)
 
6:49 PM
Right. Unless I specify something else, I'll mean that one in the future, okay? :)
 
Sure. I thought that you originally meant the Equivalences list.
 
T.b. by list for model M7 you meant pages 152 and 153? i.stack.imgur.com/ZLi9Z.png i.stack.imgur.com/Wr5e4.png
 
Sweet. What is 191?
 
You mean form 191?
 
Also 0, 182, 189, 190 and 383.
Yes.
:-)
 
6:55 PM
@MartinSleziak exactly. Thanks!
 
Question. Would it be much of breaching copyright, if I gave you the pages I downloaded from google books (hypothetically, let's say I have cca 370 out of 430)?
Anyway, they're available on google books, so they're publicly available I would say. (Not sure if storing and sharing them would be ok.)
 
I think this is a bit much.
 
@Martin: Can you tell me what is the reference Blass [1979] somehow?
 
@AsafKaragila I'm about to wander off the right path again: I wanted to get this over with asap and then leave. If I do a term abroad it'll take even longer.
 
@Matt What do you plan on doing after you leave?
 
7:06 PM
@AsafKaragila This should be the page: i.stack.imgur.com/sWc8V.png
 
@AsafKaragila Not decided yet. Something in Canada where it's cold. : ) Maybe some maths and some music... Need to keep busy otherwise I get bored.
 
It seems like Marty created a tag just for this question. Is that bad?
 
Well, definitely makes much more sense than .
 
@MartinSleziak Thanks!
 
At least to me - maybe it's just my ignorance.
 
7:12 PM
Heh.
 
@Matt Try the Sahara desert, I hear it's really cold there.
 
what does "cyclotomic" even mean?
 
Circle-cutting?
 
Sure, but taken per se
I don't think it's a good tag. I'd go for polynomials and maybe field-theory
 
7:13 PM
cyclotomic-fields would be an okay tag.
 
Okay, then create it.
 
@DylanMoreland I'd think it should be submerged into [galois-theory] or something related to that.
 
Maybe not for this question.
Stuff that would be in a book on Iwasawa theory, maybe.
Anyway, just thought I'd bring it up. Hadn't seen the tag before and I know we have tag experts in here.
 
I would say that this search reveals quite a bit of evidence that cyclotomic fields may be a good tag.
 
@tb: Thanks :-)
 
7:22 PM
@MartinSleziak I am then also ignorant. I have no idea what means.
 
@robjohn the algebra people do in homotopy theory using spectra. It's a thing that became quite fashionable a while ago when Manin lauched a campaign for it.
 
@tb I imagine that someone does. I was just consoling Martin in our ignorance :-)
 
@AsafKaragila May I ask you another forcing question?
 
Sure.
 
What is so cool about compressed sensing that TT does it?
 
7:29 PM
@JonasTeuwen ?
 
TT = Terence Tao.
 
@JonasTeuwen It's the sensible thing to do, and it's compressed to it's easier to transfer it from one place to another...
How come \left\right modifiers never modify my parenthesis?
 
So given the FPO
$$ M_\mathcal{U} = \{ (s,x) \mid s \in fin ( \omega ) \land x \in \mathcal{U} \land \max (s) < \min (x) \} $$
where
$$ (s,x) \leq (t,y) \iff s \subseteq t \land y \subseteq x \land t \setminus s \subseteq x$$
and $$ m_G := \bigcup \{ s \in fin( \omega ) \mid \exists x \in \mathcal{U} : (s,x) \in G \} $$
($\mathcal{U} $ is an ultrafilter)
I'm asked to show that for any $x \in \mathcal{U}$: $m_G \subseteq^\ast x$ which means that $| m_G \cap x^c | < \omega$.
I've been thinking about a proof by contradiction but I think it's a dead end and I'm also worried that I'm making the
 
7:35 PM
FPO?
 
Forcing Partial Order.
 
I went to the library with another lib card I picked up and told her I was having trouble getting on the computers with it. She scanned it and told me the PIN, asking if I typed it correctly. I simply said "whoops" and now my max time on Sunday library computers is doubled forevermore. :D
 
I feel quite stupid because it's probably obvious.
 
Well, what does it mean for two conditions to be compatible in this forcing?
 
7:42 PM
@JonasTeuwen Thanks for the reference. I've read part; I will read the rest later.
 
@robjohn The CS thing?
 
@JonasTeuwen yes.
 
$(s,x)$ and $(t,y)$ are compatible if there is an $(r,z)$ such that
$$ s \subseteq r \land z \subseteq x \land r \setminus s \subseteq x \text{ and } t \subseteq r \land z \subseteq y \land r \setminus t \subseteq y$$
 
@JonasTeuwen I think it is close to what I deal with a lot in astrophotography.
 
@robjohn Does it have to do with sparse matrices? 8-).
 
7:48 PM
@Matt Correct. Now this means that $r\setminus (t\cup s)$ is a subset of both $x$ and $y$.
 
@AsafKaragila Yes.
 
I'm somewhat preoccupied, so I don't see it quite clearly yet. However the main point is that the finite sets grow and given $x\in\mathcal U$ we can find a dense set which has smaller infinite sets (e.g. $x\cap (n,\omega)$) and larger and larger finite sets (e.g. $x\setminus (0,n]$) and therefore this dense subset of the forcing poset ensures that we meet $x$ almost everywhere.
 
@JonasTeuwen not the stuff I'm dealing with, at least not directly.
 
@AsafKaragila How do you define $x \cap (n, \omega)$? (The intersection between a pair and a set?)
 
@Matt Oh, sorry, I meant the open interval. I should have written $\omega\setminus n$ instead :-D
 
8:07 PM
good evening guys! anyone up for a simple question about continuity proof of a function?
 
I asked you if you solved the graph problem but got no answer.
 
oh sorry gigili, I didn't know how to reply directly to you
 
Never mind!
 
actually I didn't
im sorry gigili, i searched the pm function but i guess it wasnt implemented on purpose
 
I see. Is okay, no problem.
 
8:11 PM
do you want to discuss it? have you found a solution?
 
Actually I don't remember what it was! I was curious the night you mentioned it and it's over, I mean the curiosity is over. ;)
What's your question about continuity?
 
oh i see... oh well, sorry to disappoint you!
 
@Clash pm function?
 
@robjohn personal message function, I assumed.
 
so, $D=(-2,2), f(x)=\sqrt{|x|}sin(1/x), x \neq 0$ and $f(0)=0$. I have to show that if it's continuous (or not).
I find this trivial to say that it's continuous, but of course I have to proove it. I wonder if I have to use the delta-epsilon proof thing or if there is another way I can prove it? Can I say that both functions $sqrt{|x|}$ and $sin(1/x)$ are continuous in the domain (except for 0)? So, the product of these functions is also continuous?
@robjohn yes, as matt mentioned, I ment pm as personal message
 
8:16 PM
@Clash okay. Chat and comments are the only way for users here to communicate.
 
yeah, I think read somewhere that PM function was not implemented to avoid knowledge not being public, i.e discussions happening through PMs instead of being public
 
@robjohn $\pm$ function :-)
 
How viable is LaTeX-OCR, if it even exists today?
 
@anon This is not OCR, but have you seen this tool?
 
@Clash I guess that's a better way as opposed to delta-epsilon, it's be long for a function like that. The product of continuous (real-valued) functions is continuous.
 
8:24 PM
@robjohn: Yes, quite awhile ago.
 
@Gigili delta-epsilon would be long for that function? when is the delta-epsilon appropriate?
i dont really like it (the delta-epsilon), so im curious if there's always a way around it
 
@anon I ran across it last night, so it is still new and interesting to me.
 
Ah. The novelty wears off methinks. :) I'm just tired of reading horribly-scanned papers - feels like putting my brain in a cheese grater.
 
@Clash When the function is not sum or product of other functions, something like $f(x)=1/x$ .. I'm not sure, maybe ask someone else to make sure.
 
@Gigili I see. How can I show that $f(x)$ is continuous on $f(0)$? I mean, we know it's 0, but we don't know about $f(x)=\sqrt{|x|}sin(1/x)$. Maybe I'm confused. Can I write that because $\sqrt{|x|}=0$ for $x=0$ and $f(x)=0$, then the function is continuous?
 
8:33 PM
Oh, well. It seems that by answering this question, I have cost the OP a couple of downvotes.
 
@Clash You said the domain is $(-2,2)-\{ 0\}$, no?
 
no sorry, the domain is (-2,2), but $f(0)=0$
 
Because $\sqrt(|x|) $ is zero either $x$ tends to $0^+$ or $0^-$, doesn't matter what the amount of other function is - at that point, I guess. $\lim_{x \to 0} ... =0$
Am I right, @robjohn? If you have time.
 
@robjohn given that he left for the lonely hearts club the day after posting, and wasn't seen since, I guess he won't mind too much :)
 
8:47 PM
yeah I actually also have this graph open right here :) pretty crazy right? but it's hard to see what's happening at x=0
 
Anyway, ask someone else to make sure.
@Clash Indeed.
 
ok, thanks for your help gigili! im going to write this down, i think it's enough
its cool if its not 100% correct
 
Good luck. =)
 
Phew! That was quite some edit.
 
@AsafKaragila If you still have time for editing, it would be nice to link to this version because it's freely available.
 
8:54 PM
Done!
 
Great
 
Interesting that as soon as I finished editing David Roberts profile showed he came to the site :-)
 
9:08 PM
@AsafKaragila I give up. T_T
 
@Matt Usually the wiser thing to do.
I am a born quitter. Once I even tried quitting being a quitter, and I quit that too.
4
 
I'm so frustrated I don't even want to get a drink.
 
is p=np?
 
@ZeeshanMahmud Yes, for p = 0 or n = 1.
 
I need a studying tip for Schaum's Outline for Topology...the answers are there. And I don't feel like doing the hard work when the answers are already there. What if I just read through?
 
9:19 PM
Then you will not fully understand.
I think I deserve a hardy drink after all that work I did today.
I studied a lot about Cohen's second model without even looking at its proper definition!
 
@AsafKaragila Okay I will give an example. There was a puzzle I was trying to solve called Mahavira's Arrow about number of arrows in a hexagonal quiver. After 5 mins, I looked at the solution. My question is since now I know the answer now what will be the next step so to speak? :)
 
@AsafKaragila Arak?
@ZeeshanMahmud Grow a pair, one could say. Another option is: rip out the pages. And finally: Take a book without solutions!
 
@JonasTeuwen No, I'm gonna go to the pub and drink a beer. Arak will follow freely on the house. It's good to be a barfly.
See you folks later.
 
@AsafKaragila Bye.
 
9:51 PM
Could someone guide me through how to answer question, to avoid spoon-feeding?
 
what do you mean?
 
let me take a look
 
Better to write "HINT: something"?
@tb Thank you.
Also, what's the difference between "amount" and "value"? we'd find values of $x$ and $y$ for a system or amounts of them?
 
I think it's fine the way it is. Be careful, though: at some point you divide by $m$ but you haven't ruled out the possibility $m = 0$, yet.
 
9:57 PM
Oh right, I'll add it now.
 
Concerning your linguistic question: I'd say $x$ and $y$ are solutions and you count the number of them. You can have an amount of money or speak of the amount of chocolate in the cake, but the amount of solutions seems somewhat odd to me.
 
Sounds reasonable, thanks again @tb.
 
@Gigili That correction is not what I meant. You divide by zero. The previous equation for $m = 0$ gives $0 = -1$, so you won't have a solution.
 
10:11 PM
@tb Um, sorry. I'm a little stressed out. Fixed.
Is it correct now?
 
@Gigili Instead of $$"mx = 2m-1$$ So $x$ and $y$ are $(2m-1)/m$ and $1-m$, respectively." I'd really write: If $m \neq 0$ then we may divide by $m$ and get $x = (2m-1)/m$ and $y = 1-m$. If $m = 0$...
Then conclude as you did and say what happens if $m = 1$ or $m=2$.
 
Uhum, got it.
 
10:28 PM
What a silly mistake I made..
How to write 1(+-)2?
 
@Gigili $1 \pm 2$?
 
Yes, but how?
Oh I see, \pm
Thank you.
 
Right-click to show the source.
No problem.
There's $\mp$ as well.
 
@DylanMoreland I thought it was $m^2-3m+2=0$, instead of $m^3$ !
 
I thought that might be it :)
I think something's off in the new version even now. $(m^3 + 1) - 3m - 3$ is $m^3 - 3m - 2$.
I think the roots of the original equation are just $1$ and $-2$. One of those is a double root (I forget which).
 
10:36 PM
Yikes. Something is wrong with me, sorry for being silly.
 
In any event, the numbers aren't important :)
 
@Gigili to what are you referring?
 
@DylanMoreland You showed the patience of a saint! Thank you for your time and help. =)
The OP left.
I'm off to bed, thanks @tb and @DylanMoreland again.
 
No worries. Goodnight!
 
10:52 PM
@Gigili Ah, then you were correct. Sorry I was afk.
@Gigili good night.
 
@robjohn "we name something in algebra simply by how it looks, such as a + b is called the sum of a and b" is a common phrase thrown around in pre-algebra that creates a lot of confusion, would you care to elaborate on its intended meaning?
 
In an abelian group you can call the group operation "+" and then things like "a+b=b+a" and "a+(b+c)=(a+b)+c" carry over to the new setting as well, even though these aren't even numbers. In algebra when the formal structure of a general setting (like abelian groups) "looks" like something familiar and usual - addition - then we can abuse our words and start calling things like a+b "sums" in the higher setting as well as the lower.
 
Good night folks.
 
night
 
11:08 PM
@anon Good night and thank you.
For answering
 
No prob, but I was saying night to Matt. It's afternoon where I'm sitting :)
Can you manually save a draft of an answer/question on MSE?
 
@anon Thanks for answering. I was off getting some tea and food.
@anon use the stackprinter.
 
the what?
 
What problem do you want to save?
 
A draft. It doesn't exist yet and I've got 2 minutes left! (to save my work. there is no notepad and I'm lazy.)
 
11:17 PM
Oh, it needs a problem number to work. The best would be to email the edit text to yourself
 
open office nvm
 
post and delete?
It's the only thing I can think of that doesn't require outside programs.
If it says it has backed up, next time you log in it should be there when you open the problem
even if you haven't actually saved anything.
that has worked for me in the past.
but it has to say that it has backed up
 
@robjohn Do you have anything to add to anon's answer rob, considering this is pre-algebra and the students have no idea what an abelian group is?
 
in what context is this being discussed?
 
pre-algebra
 
11:24 PM
and what are you trying to introduce? If they don't know what an abelian group is, what do they know?
 
@robjohn "we name something in algebra simply by how it looks, such as a + b is called the sum of a and b" is a common phrase thrown around in pre-algebra that creates a lot of confusion, would you care to elaborate on its intended meaning?
 
@Skullpatrol I saw that before, but I am trying to figure out what you are trying to communicate. I wouldn't use that phrasing since it sounds too randomly motivated.
 
QED
yo
 
We name something in algebra so that it corresponds to something with which we are already familiar so that we might better understand its function in the new setting.
 
@robjohn That sounds like a much better phrasing
 
11:31 PM
Hopefully, that is not only applicable to algebra, but also to all areas of math.
@QED sup?
 
QED
I thought that problem about getting 2011 from the numbers 1,2,3,4 was fun
proving it's impossible. The proof was a huge case analysis, would be good to computer check it.
 
@robjohn What I'm trying to communicate is that a + b is called the sum of a and b, but what we are referring to is the resulting number c which is the sum of a and b.
 
QED
@Skullpatrol, do you know any programming languages?
 
@QED very little and only at the beginners level
 
QED
You can often look at things that way. When people write expressions out for a group the symbols get interpreted one way, and when they write out expressions for arithmetic they have a different interpretation.
This doesn't always work since often people write strange things that have no compositional meaning.
 
11:56 PM
"we name something in algebra simply by how it looks, such as a + b is called the sum of a and b" is a common phrase thrown around in pre-algebra that creates a lot of confusion" In pre algebra? Really? What does 'something' here refer to if not actual addition for a prealgebra audience?
 
@robjohn The progression is from a phrase to a variable expression to the result of that variable expression with values substituted in. But sometimes, for example we talk about just the sum of a and b as a + b having certain properties without ever mentioning that it is the result of the sum that we are referring to.
 
$a+b$ is a member of the group and it is also the sum of two elements of the group?
 
QED
@Skullpatrol was that clear
 
Ah, the distinction between the result of an operation and the operation itself expressed in the same way with notation. We've officially hit Spoonwood territory here.
 
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