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9:01 PM
I respect you not willing to give me your scholarly opinion
 
It's more like I'm not going to spend time forming an opinion for you.
 
It's interesting to note that he didn't mention pi, but tau, well, pi is wrong I guess.
 
@tb Maybe he's one of them "Use tau = 2pi instead!!!"
 
@AsafKaragila that's why I said pi is wrong :)
 
Et tu, Brute?
 
9:10 PM
@Asaf: link 1, link 2
 
He's right as far as it would be nice if incoming math students were given a sheet saying, "by the way, here is the Greek alphabet with the names of the letters. We'll be using them a lot to stand for various things, so be prepared to seem them here and there". Using actual lecture time on them, though, is probably overkill.
 
@tb I know about that movement.
 
@AsafKaragila They've got a point, I think. I have no strong opinion on this matter, though.
 
Eh. I wouldn't care.
 
Is there something like the Riesz representation theorem for c_0(\mathbb{N})?
 
9:22 PM
May I ask your scholarly opinions on a pdf file I found? dynamic.uoregon.edu/~teddy/OnDivisionByZero.pdf
 
I am always impressed when my MO questions get a lot of votes.
 
@Matt functionals on c_0 are the same as finite signed measures on N which are the same as summable sequences, so (c_0)* = l^1
 
@tb: I read both already. I was hoping that Riesz-Markov can be tweaked to work for c_0(N). I need a way to write a thing in (c_0(N))* as <., g > for some g in l^1.
 
@Matt the last formula on the c-space wiki does what you want.
It is much more elementary than Riesz-Markov...
 
If W is a subspace of V (both vector spaces over some F), this means W* is a subset of V*. How does a functional from V*\W* acts on W?
 
9:30 PM
@Matt Also the measure version for C_0(X) gives exactly what you're looking for. Just think about what a finite measure on N really is: it assigns some weight to each point and this must be summable
@AsafKaragila If W is a subspace of V then W^\ast is a quotient of V^\ast
So it doesn't act naturally on V
 
What is the kernel?
 
Those functionals on V that restrict to zero on W
A functional of V restricts to a functional on W. Two such functionals restrict to the same if they differ by one that restricts to zero.
 
Hmpf. I am going to need to play with some examples before I jump the shark on this one.
How does a basis of l_1 looks like? An algebraic one, not a topological one.
 
no idea.
 
I thought you were into functional analysis :-D
 
9:35 PM
it has cardinality continuum
Don't think it's possible to construct one explicitly.
 
@tb: Hehe : ) this is pleasing : ) thanks!
 
So it has quite the large basis... continuum is pretty small, when you think about it.
Hm. How about a simpler space?
All eventually 0 sequences.
That would play the role of V, and W would be zeros on even coordinates of the sequence.
 
@AsafKaragila Answer to "What is the kernel?" He is the guy who sells Kentucky Fried Chicken ... just a joke before you "jump the shark" pal ;-)
 
@AsafKaragila Every Banach space has algebraic dimension \geq continuum. I don't think you can give an algebraic basis explicitly for any infinite-dimensional Banach space. This looks much more intricate than giving a Hamel basis for the reals.
 
9:39 PM
Harmonic analysis is cool.
 
...@ <- tumble weeds (@AsafKaragila: lol)
 
@tb Eventually zero sequences are spanned by delta functions, so to speak. The dimension over R is countable...
 
Ah, sorry I was thinking of c_0. Then you just take the usual coordinate guys, of course.
(Every eventually zero sequence is uniquely a finite linear combination of those).
 
So what does a functional on V looks like, and how does it act on W?
 
The algebraic dual is a countable product of R (arbitrary sequences of reals). Pointwise multiplication.
 
9:42 PM
I am starting to feel how much doing non set theoretic math without the axiom of choice is the same as hooking your gonads to a car battery just to make walking around the street harder.
@tb Then summation of the results, of course.
 
Yes, working mathematicians tend to be pragmatic in this respect :)
Sure, yes.
 
So in a sense, every functional looks like that on a space with a basis.
It is just a pointwise multiplication of sequences one of which is almost zero; then summation.
 
Well you have a basis: what you called the delta-functions.
But you no longer have an obvious basis for the dual space.
 
In a sense, the way I see it, functionals are sorta "all the combinations of bases possible".
This is why we have a functional projecting on each nonzero vector in the space the value 1; and still we don't cover all the functionals.
It's driving me nuts. I am actually seeing it, how such a dual space looks like.
I can see it in my head. I can't explain it to myself, though.
 
I'm tempted to say: 'I want some of what you smoked :)
 
9:48 PM
Hah.
I have this weird ability to visualize infinitely dimensional structures. I am worth shit with anything less than 5 dimensions though.
This is why I love set theory, you get to play with all those crazy unlimited structures. They get bigger and bigger.
As though LaTeX allows you \bigggggggggggggggggggg....g as long as you'd like.
 
I think function spaces are cool. They are topology and measure theory in one.
 
A propos of that: If we're in a world without choice and have a vector space without a basis, I'm not sure the algebraic dual necessarily has any nonzero elements.
@AsafKaragila Can you visualize a Hilbert sphere contracting to a point within itself?
 
I'm not sure what you mean by that.
 
Which of them?
 
The latter.
The former, I was about to say that you are wrong.
Let V be a space without a basis V\oplus F=V'
 
9:54 PM
I'm wrong when I claim not to be sure? Groovy.
 
I'm being told that it's sleepy time, so: Good night folks and thanks @t.b.!
 
Good night, Matt!
 
Then we have a functional which is the projection onto the "last" copy of F we have added to V.
 
Sure, there are some basisless spaces that have nontrivial duals.
 
Oh. Now I read it right.
 
9:55 PM
@Asaf: you seem to have missed "necessarily"
 
Well, I am pretty sure it is open right now. I am hoping to solve that in my thesis, actually.
 
@Asaf: but in this Läuchli paper there is this vector space without a basis and whose dual space is zero ?!
 
Yeah.
 
So, what's open about that?
 
Expanding on before: The Hilbert sphere is the subset of ordinary countable-dimension Hilbert space consisting of vectors with norm 1, and the subset topology. Unlike finite-dimensional spheres, the Hilbert sphere is a contractible space!
 
9:57 PM
I like that, it's very nice. Even more surprising is the fact that it is diffeomorphic to the whole space...
 
I hope to show that it is not consistent, but provable that some vector space has no endomorphisms other than scalar multiplications.
 
@Henning: I like infinite-dimensional geometry less and less.
 
"Not consistent but provable"? Sounds omnious.
 
@HenningMakholm I haven't played with this space before. I probably can't think about it because it is only a syntactic object for me right now. Objects I work with become semantical objects and get interpreted...
@HenningMakholm Quite >:-] (You also missed the comma there)
 
The semantic effect of commas in English is a mystery to me anyway.
 
10:01 PM
Descent theory looks scarily 2-categorical. Hmmm.
 
It is known to be consistent. I hope to show it is in fact provable.
Descent was that spacecraft game from like 1997 or so, no?
 
Ah. For that I would have expected "not only consistent(,) but provable".
 
@ZhenLin Ever heard about Stacks?
 
@tb Yes, but I haven't learned about them properly.
I'm trying to read "Facets of Descent, I" (Janelidze and Tholen, 1994)
 
Brief point of order: Now that the artist formerly known as rob has left the building, do you guys think it is counterproductive (and/or rude) for me to reply to him as I did?
 
10:04 PM
Chateau Bel-Air 2005 La Chapelle < great!
 
Also, amusingly, my algebraic geometry lecturer started talking about sheaves today (at last! with 5 lectures to go...) and then suddenly I heard, "sheaves are made of more basic objects called stacks" (or something like that) and I was shocked
then I realised he was actually talking about stalks
 
This question is to everybody who can answer: what is the simple intuition and simple idea of those three subject (algebraic geometry, algebraic topology, differential algebra), what are those use for, do they have any connection? Do you have to learn the topoloy in order to get to or learn those subject? What is its application?
 
@JonasTeuwen So you're moving from Whisky to Bordeaux now? That's a strange order
 
Yes, it's a strange order. I just wanted to taste that bottle.
 
@ZhenLin Stalks, sTalks or Talks about tacks, stacks and thumbtacks?
 
10:07 PM
@tb - do you know each other with Jonas and invite each other to taste the bottle?
 
@HenningMakholm I don't think that it was rude (I found the various trolling allusions by others quite rude). You are entitled to say that you're not particularly interested in division by zero and the other topics he brought up.
@Victor No, we're quite far away from each other. But Jonas mentioned earlier that he was drinking Whisky (I foresee a major headache tomorrow...)
 
The headache is worth it :-).
 
@tb - i have a interesting question: if you have a student in college, could you answer his question in internet?
 
@JonasTeuwen I didn't claim otherwise :)
(You earned it this week).
@Victor Why not?
 
@tb -Doesn't the school consider it cheating
 
10:11 PM
Is it cheating if the student asks me something in the hallway and I answer?
 
Is it cheating if the student asks this in class?
 
Is it cheating if it's not assessed?
 
@AsafKaragila @tb - i think that you can't help him to do his homework and thesis
 
@tb I don't doubt my entitlement as much as I wonder whether there's any point in trying to explain that the way he comes across makes people not want to talk to him. (Which is hard: each time I attempt to formulate a rule of thumb, it ends up looking like a double standard that we regulars get to shoot unmotivated mathematical musings at each other but he doesn't).
 
@Victor That's simply not true. If the student has a problem with homework they may ask (that's what office hours are for) and we may (and should!) also help them with their theses. As long as the main contents of the thesis is the student's own work there is absolutely no problem with that, on the contrary!
@HenningMakholm I understand the uneasy feeling completely. It is very hard to pin down the distinction. Why don't we consider division by zero interesting but we may chatter on about bases of vector spaces at the same time? If we're honest, we don't really know what it is that makes a mathematician either. But we know them when we see them...
 
10:19 PM
The job of a mathematician is to make concepts which we know when we see them into concrete, precise definitions...
 
@ZhenLin ... and henceforth they are something entirely different.
 
Hah.
 
Well.
 
It's quite true really. If we hadn't arithmetised our geometry we probably would never have dreamt up those monstrous things like non-measurable sets or continuous-nowhere-differentiable functions or whatever.
 
Now that I have written an answer to a question that I think should be retagged. I will go to sleep and deal with the comments in the morning.
 
10:21 PM
@Asaf: Good plan!
 
@ZhenLin Thanks. This means that you folks are left to retag this question.
 
10:42 PM
tumbleweed
 
10:59 PM
Hmm. More Bordeaux or Lagavulin?
 
@JonasTeuwen I'd go for a Lagavulin. We can share one, if you wish :)
 
Good!
 
Just a minute....
Okay, I'm ready: cheers, all the best once again for your master and good success with your research in harmonic analysis!
 
Thanks! Had to rinse the glass.
 
Congratulations!
 
11:06 PM
Congrats, @Jonas.
 
Great stuff.
I'm not looking forward to tomorrow morning! :-).
 
I can imagine :)
Drink a lot of water before you go to bed.
 
Yes.
 
(and don't forget to go to...you know where...before you lay down)
 
Heh.
 
So, what Lagavulin do you drink? I decided to go for the 1981 edition which a friend brought me some years ago. Deliciously smooth, much less scratchy than the ordinary 16yo one.
 
The ordinary one :-).
The 1981 edition is quite... expensive!
 
@robjohn That's nice. I hadn't seen that before.
 
Does it remind you of shoe polish?
 
What?
 
11:14 PM
I'm glad I could remember all that. That was all from memory.
 
The Langavulin!
 
I taught that at UCLA in 1986-1988
 
@robjohn Good memory!
 
@robjohn Yes, good memory!
(And by "that" I meant the derivation of the closed form from the recurrence.)
 
No it doesn't, but on second thought I never drank shoe polish... Life's too short to drink such rubbish :)
 
11:17 PM
@MikeSpivey I figured you had see the other ways to compute D(n)
 
@Jonas: I don't think I've added mine yet, so congratulations!
 
@Mike Thanks!
 
@robjohn Yes, I had.
 
Pretty standard in Discrete Math courses, I think.
 
11:19 PM
@robjohn: that derivation of the closed form is beautiful!
 
@tb Thanks. I think so, too. (not to seem too self-gratifying ;-)
 
@robjohn Is it original?
 
If I remember correctly, someone else did suggest the subtraction of nD(n-1) from both sides to get the (-1)^n, but then I finished off the rest.
It has been 23 years :-)
 
@robjohn: how come you taught that at UCLA? Did you move from harmonic analysis to combinatorics?
 
As a first or second year assistant prof, you teach what classes they ask you to teach, and Discrete Math was one I was asked to teach.
 
11:29 PM
@robjohn It seems like the kind of thing that should be more well-known. Maybe everybody is just blinded by the inclusion-exclusion approach. :) Ever thought of writing it up? There are a few teaching and expository-oriented journals that will publish really short pieces. For instance, it might work as a "Classroom Capsule" in The College Mathematics Journal.
 
@robjohn Ah, okay, I see.
 
@MikeSpivey Perhaps I will try. I have another paper that I should also get published (in geometry, again not analysis :-)
 
Not analysis? :[.
@robjohn Are you still in academia?
 
@MikeSpivey being an amateur mathematician, I don't think about such things.
@JonasTeuwen No, I am programming logic teaching software for UCLA now.
 
Oh, nice too.
 
11:33 PM
A title suggestion: "How to find the sum?"
 
Even better: The title should make some pun with "deranged" or "derangement." :)
 
11:46 PM
@robjohn I really think you should write it up, and I think "Classroom Capsules" is the right kind of place. The guidelines say, "Classroom Capsules consists primarily of short notes (1-3 pages) that convey new mathematical ideas and effective teaching strategies for college mathematics instruction." Recent articles include titles like "An intuitive proof of the singular value decomposition of a matrix" and "Derivative sign patterns."
A short piece explaining that the D_n formula is normally proved via inclusion-exclusion, giving a combinatorial proof of the recurrence, and then getting the formula from the recurrence would fit right in.
 
A recurring theme in handling deranged permutations
 
@robjohn Something like that. :)
 
@MikeSpivey Thanks, I will look into that. :-)
 

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