The Bridge

GnomeSlice

11:00 PM

@murgatroid99 yes

user15026

Maybe that's a poor attempt at diffusing this, but I'm tired and sick so my brain sucks right now

two bugs

@GnomeSlice That's not a very consistent argument.

GnomeSlice

@twobugs ?

how

murgatroid99

@GnomeSlice That position is absurd and nonsensical, so I guess I'll stop arguing

two bugs

@GnomeSlice You think freedom of speech is only good when people agree with you

Mad Scientist

11:00 PM

@AshleyNunn In the cases where controversial speakers are paid, that is certainly a reason to blame the university for also wasting money.

GodEmperorDune

@MadScientist opportunity cost of the renting the facilities out to someone else. Even if speakers are unpaid, it still costs the university money

two bugs

You accused me of doing the same, but I'm doing the opposite

GnomeSlice

@twobugs I think that all ideas should be open

not necessarily whatever 'freedom of speech' means legally

Mad Scientist

@GodEmperorDune That is usually nothing. But travel costs are sometimes/often paid, so there is often some cost associated

two bugs

The problem with that is all ideas are not equal.

GnomeSlice

11:01 PM

@MadScientist Sometimes the speakers even have to pay fees, apparently

@twobugs And who decides?

Mad Scientist

@GnomeSlice Not at any real university

two bugs

@GnomeSlice General, the host of the venue.

ToxicFrog

(also, xkcd.com/1357 )

user15026

@GnomeSlice Well, aren't you making your own judgement of worthiness separate to others here?

Unionhawk

@GnomeSlice The people with the venue decide who to host.

GnomeSlice

11:02 PM

@AshleyNunn No?

Unionhawk

Let's put this another way, I, personally, can't just waltz up to the University and demand to speak just because I have ideas

I mean, I can, but they don't have to host me.

GnomeSlice

right

Mad Scientist

Most people aren't invited by the university, but by individual departments or groups inside the university. And those invite people that they think have something interesting to say. That alone is incredibly selective

two bugs

Consider this - let's take something like gravity. Gravity is easily observable. There's a counter-idea called Intelligent Falling. It's based on nothing but the belief we fall intelligently towards the ground, always. Are these ideas equal?

GnomeSlice

@twobugs Nope.

two bugs

11:03 PM

Then you agree that all ideas are not equal.

GnomeSlice

But that's science

science and politics are different

science can be measured

two bugs

But politics is based on the real world.

It doesn't exist in a vacuum.

GnomeSlice

...ok.

user15026

@GnomeSlice Science is often political, but that's a whole other kettle of fishes

GodEmperorDune

@GnomeSlice you'd be surprised how much non-science wants to be allowed in schools because "equal time for both sides of the debate"

two bugs

11:04 PM

You can use statistics and facts to back up arguments.

user15026

@GodEmperorDune Which is so weird to me. Like I have a pretty strong Christian faith and I'm still like "guys seriously its not a debaaaaaate, science is real"

two bugs

Do you see what I'm getting at? You can't just say politics is separate from everything else.

GnomeSlice

@twobugs not exactly

You can't really hold a debate on why gravity isn't real, but you could sure hold a debate on a topic like feminism

GodEmperorDune

@GnomeSlice feminism is a pretty broad topic

two bugs

You can hold a debate on the theory of gravity vs the hypothesis of intelligent falling

It's just not a good debate because intelligent falling is very stupid (har har)

GnomeSlice

11:08 PM

and something like "feminism has a problem maybe" is also very stupid har har?

ToxicFrog

@GnomeSlice science and politics affect each other greatly. As a trivial example, climate science and weather prediction in the US is well behind most of the world because congress refuses to fund the kind of broad-spectrum monitoring satellites that requires -- because the results might be politically inconvenient for congressmembers who have been saying that global climate change is a myth to their electorate.

GnomeSlice

science is a lot easier to prove

two bugs

@GnomeSlice There's a difference between "feminism has a problem" and what Milo says. A very clear difference.

ToxicFrog

It's incredibly disingenuous to frame this as "feminism has a problem maybe".

GnomeSlice

@twobugs He didn't get to say it, so who knows

murgatroid99

11:09 PM

Many (early) racist ideas were based on flawed or biased science (or "science"). Just because racism is primarily a political topic does not mean that all of those ideas should suddenly get equal time. It's the same with other political ideas. Some sides are based on biased statistical analysis or flawed assumptions, and they don't have equal value to the other side.

two bugs

We know from thousands of tweets and nonsensical diatribes Milo has gone on

I am very confused why you deny this

ToxicFrog

@GnomeSlice what he says is well documented all over the internet, including in his own writing

murgatroid99

@GnomeSlice Just because a particular university didn't give him a platform doesn't mean that he has never expressed his ideas publicly anywhere

GnomeSlice

he's a bad example, you all hate him

but yeah, he criticizes things, so?

ToxicFrog

Well, yes, because's a total shitlord full of terrible ideas

He criticizes things like "women being able to write and play games or have any political power"

two bugs

11:10 PM

There's a difference between criticizing something and stating that half of the world's popular are basically subhuman.

ToxicFrog

Not all criticism is equal, either :P

GnomeSlice

@twobugs Source pls

two bugs

www.breitbart.com

Enjoy!

GodEmperorDune

@twobugs i really want to flag that as offensive

GnomeSlice

@GodEmperorDune this attitude is the problem

and this is why people are voting for trump...

GodEmperorDune

11:12 PM

@GnomeSlice SE is not a government

two bugs

Breitbart is only offensive to people who are looking for journalistic integrity

And not COMPLETELY FAKING STORIES

GodEmperorDune

@GnomeSlice that i am offended by hateful things?

notice how i did not actually flag it

murgatroid99

It is probably true that Trump supporters are opposed to people being offended at hateful things

GnomeSlice

breitbart.com/big-government/2016/05/24/bill-nye-scientism

neat

@murgatroid99 or opposed to being policed in what they can say, and being called racists and shit when most of them aren't actually

ToxicFrog

@murgatroid99 I think they just disagree on what's hateful

GnomeSlice

11:14 PM

@ToxicFrog and this, mostly

two bugs

@GnomeSlice Who is being policed?

GodEmperorDune

@GnomeSlice people are not racist. their words and actions can be, but i'm not a mind reader

John

@Wipqozn I would say this is likely, but agreeing with @Wipqozn is too high a price.

ToxicFrog

Like, muslims: hateful, openly calling for concentration camps and the forced deportation of millions: not hateful

two bugs

If your answer is "Milo is being policed", my question is how?

He's still able to openly express his completely insane views

He just had to pay a very small price for openly calling for people to be harassed.

ToxicFrog

11:16 PM

On a major international news network, no less

two bugs

RIP his checkmark :'(

GnomeSlice

@twobugs like... everyone

everyone chases after you if you slip up and say something that offends some special victim group

two bugs

@GnomeSlice That's a very compelling argument and I'm not about to sigh heavily, roll my eyes, and go play Overwatch.

user15026

@GodEmperorDune Separate from all of this, I just realized that the constellations for the Hole in the Sky change when you ascend

ToxicFrog

@GnomeSlice "being criticized for his shitty views" and "being policed" aren't even slightly the same thing, and he's not even being critized by e.g. the people who sign his paycheques

GodEmperorDune

11:17 PM

@AshleyNunn they alternate between genders based on if its an odd or even ascension

user15026

@GodEmperorDune It cracked me up.

GodEmperorDune

(it took me a while to realize that too)

GnomeSlice

@ToxicFrog fine, by 'policed' I didn't mean actually by law enforcement

I've been called both sexist and racist

and I am neither of those things

and it's starting to piss me off

GodEmperorDune

2 mins ago, by GodEmperorDune

@GnomeSlice people are not racist. their words and actions can be, but i'm not a mind reader

two bugs

When you support people like Milo, who are openly sexist, and deny that they are sexist...

user15026

11:18 PM

Okay, let's step back from this because I don't think this should be about judging @GnomeSlice as a person.

GodEmperorDune

even milo is not necessarily sexist, but he says/writes/tweets very sexist things

GnomeSlice

He's a provocateur, he... pushes boundaries for sure

user15026

Attacking each other is not going to make anything more awesome.

two bugs

@AshleyNunn I'm not, but I'm trying to explain why people will take these views

user15026

I don't like that word, provocateur, because so many people kinda use it as a get out of jail free card for sharing asshole views

ToxicFrog

11:20 PM

^ that

GnomeSlice

@AshleyNunn you don't go to jail for being an asshole

user15026

And generally being monsterboxes to people.

GnomeSlice

and assholes can be right about things too

two bugs

He's far beyond a provocateur.

GnomeSlice

plus, I can use words you don't like

Tim Stone

11:20 PM

@AshleyNunn This is relevant since that's his (Milo's) whole shtick

ToxicFrog

"Oh, it's ok that I'm constantly saying shitty things and that the thousands of people who read my articles are taking them completely seriously, because I'm just ~being edgy~"

user15026

@GnomeSlice I have no idea what this has to do with what I said?

two bugs

@GnomeSlice No, but you can be criminally charged for persecuting someone

GodEmperorDune

@AshleyNunn on an unrelated note, stealing "monsterboxes"

GnomeSlice

@twobugs which he doesn't do

in fact he tweeted to his fans to stop propagating the #trigglypuff thing

GodEmperorDune

11:21 PM

@GnomeSlice as far as i'm aware he hasn't been arrested?

two bugs

He has openly, numerous times, called for people to be harassed

GnomeSlice

@GodEmperorDune Not that I'm aware of

two bugs

Just because he said not to ONE TIME (giving you the benefit of the doubt here) does not excuse that

badp

→ 5 messages moved to Android Hell

two bugs

Anyway, I'm going to go play Overwatch right now. I don't think this discussion is really going anywhere but let me be clear that I do not think you are racist or sexist @GnomeSlice

GnomeSlice

11:24 PM

Whatever, I don't want you guys to hate me so I guess I should just stop trying badly to defend my views

GodEmperorDune

@GnomeSlice i certainly don't hate you

Dragonrage

@badp can you move like the last half hour there?

user15026

@Dragonrage Why?

Dragonrage

because we keep getting heated arguments

GodEmperorDune

@Dragonrage hiding our history doesn't make it go away

two bugs

11:27 PM

@Dragonrage This wasn't really heated, though?

user15026

@Dragonrage That's part of being a varied community, though, and really, this was pretty civil

GodEmperorDune

yeah i've been in much worse

GnomeSlice

@Dragonrage ಠ_ಠ

GodEmperorDune

though i feel @GnomeSlice was heavily outnumbered and outgunned

Tim Stone

FWIW I was being sexist earlier when I made the assumption @twobugs's boss was male. That doesn't mean that I'm a raging misogynist, but no one was better off for me having made that assumption, and I should be more careful if I'm concerned about respecting other people

GnomeSlice

11:28 PM

Well obviously I'm the minority

and that's fine

it would help if I were a better debater, though

@TimStone No one was worse off either tbh

It's just a word

Tim Stone

How are we qualified to judge that though?

We're white men, we don't tend to get the short end of any stick

GodEmperorDune

@TimStone yeah i think @twobugs boss is super pissed at you now

GnomeSlice

Do men need to check their privilege?

►

GodEmperorDune

@GnomeSlice american Enterprise institute is heavily biased

GnomeSlice

Just watch it

GodEmperorDune

11:31 PM

though i liked that they had a discussion about capitalism and happiness with the dalai lama some time back

GnomeSlice

I'm not able to explain it that well myself

user15026

Unfortunately I'm at work for the next 30 min so I can't watch it til I get home and by then I will likely forget to because I have major goldfish brain lately

GodEmperorDune

@AshleyNunn it says that the invisible knapsack of privilege is based on exaggerated stats

user15026

Oh, okay. One of those.

GnomeSlice

@GodEmperorDune no it doesn't

user15026

11:34 PM

I can fill in the gaps.

GodEmperorDune

it complains about feminist groups cherry picking stats, then proceeds ot cherry pick its own stats

GnomeSlice

Why even bother watching it right

10 mins ago, by GnomeSlice

Whatever, I don't want you guys to hate me so I guess I should just stop trying badly to defend my views

GodEmperorDune

@GnomeSlice i am watching it, blood boiling and all

user15026

@GnomeSlice I'm at work. I can't watch it.

GnomeSlice

@GodEmperorDune all she's doing is listing facts about men

what about that makes your blood boil

Tim Stone

11:36 PM

She's spinning the narrative to tell you nothing's wrong and people willingly accept that because it's a comfortable position

GnomeSlice

I don't know about 'nothing'

But maybe not the things people complain about a lot

Tim Stone

You're assuming that she's right about what she's saying though, and there's not anything significant presented to suggest that's true

user15026

See, that's another tricky thing about all of this - pulling facts apart from the spin people put on them.

Tim Stone

She says "Oh look at these numbers and feel sorry for men" as if the statistics aren't more complicated

badp

as a white cis non-queer young male I've only been discriminated against exactly once, when looking for home in Munich. They chose a woman over me because "women are more reliable"

Tim Stone

11:37 PM

Or that there isn't a history of this exact problem

user15026

There are so many ways to very convincingly take the same set of statistics and create completely opposing "facts" out of the data

Tim Stone

I'm not saying that there aren't surely people on the other side of the discussion that inflate points too

GnomeSlice

@TimStone medium.com/@cainejw/…

Tim Stone

But the narrative is pretty clear, especially given the dominance of men in controlling policy over the course of history

badp

I responded by being a maximum overtwat and wishing that they'd put in their flat the biggest whore in the history of the city

GnomeSlice

11:39 PM

@TimStone Men also fill the prisons

Lazers 2.0

0

Q: Fallout 4: Deal with a Deathclaw

There are some quests spoiler ahead so beware! I will try to keep the detail to a minimum. Basically I am trying to clear out a certain location that has a certain deathclaw in the witch muesum. What kind of weapon can deal substantive damage to a 30 level or higher deathclaw? I do have a com...

fallout-4

GnomeSlice

There was some study that showed that men occupy more of the ends of the IQ spectrum than women, both higher and lower

let me see if I can find it

Tim Stone

@GnomeSlice Yes, but this is its own super complicated issue that has racial bias

Yuuki

There were similar "studies" back in the 1860s.

Except it was comparing whites and blacks, not men and women.

GodEmperorDune

@GnomeSlice how is that relevant to more men being in policymaking positions than women?

GnomeSlice

11:40 PM

@Yuuki Good point, I won't bother then

ToxicFrog

There's a reason the saying is "lies, damn lies, and statistics"

GnomeSlice

53 secs ago, by GnomeSlice

There was some study that showed that men occupy more of the ends of the IQ spectrum than women, both higher and lower

GodEmperorDune

@GnomeSlice so the assumption would be that the smart men are in the policy positions?

GnomeSlice

Presumably, yes

ToxicFrog

For example, in divorces, women get the kids 80% or so of the time (idr the exact stat, but it's in that range). Clearly divorce courts are biased in favour of women.

GnomeSlice

11:41 PM

Also explains why most CEOs are male

ToxicFrog

...except that if you actually look at cases where custody was contested, the father wins 95%+ of the time.

That 80% figure is because in most cases, the father bails and wants nothing to do with the kids.

Trent Hawkins

I'm noticing many of the statistics in that video seem to ignore the history... "85% of active duty soldier are men" taking the tone that 'men do so much for us!' while blissfully ignoring some of the historic and systemic issues that have kept women from those roles.

Tim Stone

@GnomeSlice Except it doesn't, because IQ spectrum is a poor indicator of anything. It explains it only if you're looking to correlate it to a narrative

And that's the danger

GnomeSlice

@TrentHawkins are those issues still a thing?

(I don't actually know much about that in the US)

(or Canada for that matter)

user15026

@GnomeSlice In a lot of ways, yes.

Tim Stone

11:43 PM

It makes sense on the surface because the points match up, but in reality the issue isn't founded on those points

GnomeSlice

What roadblocks do women have for joining the military?

ToxicFrog

@GnomeSlice "are those still a thing" ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha wow

user15026

If you look at the military and how it's presented - look how focused they are on things that would appeal to men first

GnomeSlice

@ToxicFrog thanks

Dragonrage

so apparently one file cannot reference another file in the same project :(

GodEmperorDune

11:43 PM

@GnomeSlice in iraq and afhganistan, women were facing most/all of the same dangers as men, but were not allowed to collect combat pay because "women are not in combat roles"

ToxicFrog

I mean, some of them have changed

Like, women are no longer forbidden to join the military at all

Now they just need to worry about things like not getting combat pay even when in combat, or all the rape and the cover-ups of the rape and the more rape.

badp

@GnomeSlice that's a very nice piece of satire

GnomeSlice

@badp It's not satire

ToxicFrog

@Dragonrage what sort of project is this?

Trent Hawkins

@GnomeSlice even if we can categorically say that the issues are solved now. It does not mean that they do not continue to influence the numbers somewhat in that the past issues dissuade some women from seeking those roles.

Dragonrage

11:45 PM

@ToxicFrog Asp.Net

GnomeSlice

@TrentHawkins That's fair.

Dragonrage

web project

ToxicFrog

@Dragonrage Good luck, don't get poisoned

user15026

@TrentHawkins And we can't even say that for some of the systemic issues....

badp

nvm I read that table wrong

Trent Hawkins

11:46 PM

@AshleyNunn I did say "even if" ;)

GodEmperorDune

@ToxicFrog the combat pay thing was remedied recently, but the sexual harrassment/assaults are still a problem.

badp

still, the parts where she goes "male dominated fields have male dominated risks and dangers, boo hoo" is bullshit. They shouldn't be male dominated to begin with

Tim Stone

She mentioned the statistic of women not wanting to see combat too but TBH I imagine a lot of people aren't really happy to see combat

GnomeSlice

@TimStone I wouldn't be

Tim Stone

They feel that they're serving their country but "Yay I'm gonna go kill people" is sociopathic

GodEmperorDune

11:47 PM

@TimStone but that doesn't mean they should be PREVENTED from it

user15026

@badp The funny thing is that like some male dominated fields today used to be female dominated, but people like to brush that under teh rug

GnomeSlice

I mean without seeing the studies I can't really comment other than "men and women sometimes make difference choices on average"

Tim Stone

@GodEmperorDune Right, of course

GodEmperorDune

also there are female army rangers now. and they didn't lower the standards or anything, they just let them into the program

Tim Stone

@AshleyNunn Like computer science before we turned it into a toxic wastepit!

GodEmperorDune

11:48 PM

@AshleyNunn "we men never liked those fields anyway, you can have them... BTW, say goodbye to those high salaries"

Dragonrage

tfw you run into a problem that no one in the office knows how to fix

user15026

@TimStone That's my favourite example :)

GodEmperorDune

oh i inverted that, my bad

yeah grace hopper was a badass

badp

@TimStone never forget, "you don't hire an engineer, you hire their wives"

Tim Stone

shudders

GodEmperorDune

11:49 PM

@badp the comeuppance by the guy's daughter was fantastic. "dad, don't be an asshole and stop using my pic"

user15026

@GodEmperorDune I actually read an interesting thoughtpiece the other day that wondered with teh recent influx of men into caring professions like PSW and nursing if we will see a shift there like we did with CS

user15026

@badp Don't wanna know, do I?

GodEmperorDune

@AshleyNunn it was in the bridge a while ago

badp

@AshleyNunn you already know, so if you don't, you removed it

GnomeSlice

@AshleyNunn <joke> maybe because women have all the scholarships to get doctorates

(I'm kidding)

@AshleyNunn I had never thought about the nurse thing but that's interesting

male nurses used to be pretty uncommon I guess?

Maybe before my time a bit

GodEmperorDune

11:50 PM

@AshleyNunn only REAL MEN can empty bedpans

user15026

@badp oh good I am happy my brain forgot that

badp

poof combob ×2

user15026

@GnomeSlice Nursing and other caring professions used to be "women's work"

GodEmperorDune

@GnomeSlice i think way back in the day they didn't have female nurses because "they would faint at the sight of blood"

GnomeSlice

@AshleyNunn good point

user15026

11:51 PM

@GodEmperorDune That, among other things

GnomeSlice

@GodEmperorDune but... most nurses were female

user15026

also like....the whole thing with female hysteria and periods and oh god let's not let those delicate flowers around the real work

GnomeSlice

"let's not let those delicate flowers hear a debate about feminism"?

Frank

Wee! Did some part touchup, and a little bit more glossing.

GodEmperorDune

@GnomeSlice like 1800s

Frank

11:52 PM

I'll be ready to do decalling tomorrow.

GnomeSlice

ugh I'm SO BAD at defending my views

user15026

@GnomeSlice I...what?

GnomeSlice

@AshleyNunn the original thing that started the whole discussion

with the people banning the dudes

user15026

I literally do not understand how you took me mocking asshole men views on doctor/nurse stuff from like hundreds of years ago and twisted it to relate to stuff

user15026

@GnomeSlice my statement was about why women weren't allowed in medicine

GodEmperorDune

11:54 PM

@GnomeSlice the difference boils down to "no you cannot do this" vs "fyi, here's a trigger warning"

user15026

not men

GnomeSlice

"people can do stuff because they aren't delicate flowers!"

"... don't let these people do stuff because we are delicate flowers"

user15026

@GnomeSlice no no no no no tyhat's not the point I was making at all

user15026

Okay. Actually, let me use myself as an example.

GnomeSlice

please don't

Tim Stone

11:55 PM

@GnomeSlice It has nothing to do with being a delicate flower in that case though, it has to do with not acknowledging there being value to a man telling women that their struggle isn't real, basically

GnomeSlice

@TimStone that is not actually what the debate was about

user15026

@GnomeSlice why?

GnomeSlice

plus, isn't diversity of thought more important than 'is the guy a man'

@AshleyNunn in my experience, when people talk about their own experiences (myself included) it becomes more about feelings than facts

Tim Stone

It implies that the perspective is valid and doesn't exist for the benefit of bringing attention to the person providing it

GnomeSlice

@TimStone A perspective criticizing some aspects of feminism is not valid?

user15026

11:57 PM

@GnomeSlice The problem is, you're talking about a lot of subjects that are very emotionally laden.

GnomeSlice

@AshleyNunn That's why it's so tricky

user15026

By nature of their being.

Tim Stone

It could be! Not if the person's whole goal is just to stir shit up though.

ToxicFrog

And also regurgitating tired arguments that almost everyone has seen (and seen thoroughly debunked) already, many times.

Tim Stone

And make no mistake, that's what Milo's goal is, even if he tries to paint it in a pretty picture

GnomeSlice

11:58 PM

@ToxicFrog like the wage gap?

user15026

@TimStone if it wasn't he'd not call it being a provocateur or whatever

Tim Stone

Breitbart doesn't get attention for saying reasonable things

GnomeSlice

they say reasonable things in really inflammatory language

user15026

@GnomeSlice That's not a thing to be debunked, that's a thing that is.

user15026

@GnomeSlice Reasonable may be debatable, but the thing is, they have no interest in any real debate - if they did, they'd not have to cloak it in "inflammatory language" to get a point across

GnomeSlice

11:59 PM

if you want to close the wage gap, get more women into trades

user15026

@GnomeSlice and how do we do that?

GnomeSlice

because the gap can pretty much entirely be explained by men and women taking different careers

user15026

@GnomeSlice eeeeeeeeeeeeergh

GnomeSlice

@AshleyNunn shrug, maybe they don't want to go into trades as much as men?

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