The Bridge

Q: Is there any console that supports Java on their Internet browser?

if the malware is made known upfront. is it still malware?

it'd just be another computer service at this point

Lazers 2.0

0

I do want to play some flash games (for example, Runescape) on a console, i own the Ps3, Wii U, 3DS and PSP that have internet connection, and i buy legit games for them, so i don't want to modify the console or anything. Is it possible to load Java on those consoles? It would be cool to play...

user15026

@originaluser the reality is simple. People suck and do shitty things, and if they followed a simple rule (express disclosure not hidden in a TOS you know gets ignored) it would be better for everyone and you would be better off.

Yuuki

Congrats to /r/Splatoon for being the Subreddit of the Day! If you haven't connected with fellow squid fans on Reddit yet, check it out!

Tweeted by NintendoAmerica on May 28, 2015 at 8:56 PM

I don't want to sound like I'm advocating for shady things like stealing cycles because "it's for your own good", I just think it's interesting to think about and discuss with other people. And I guess I'm a bit of a devil's advocate

3:02 PM

@Lazers2.0 Why would you want that?

user15026

@originaluser understand that being the devil's advocate just for the sake of being so in many arguments, especially online, will win you no love from the group at large.

@AshleyNunn That I definitely agree with, but there's also the danger of presenting users with information they can't adequately make sense of (e.g. people googling health problems online)

Lol he said 'flash games' then asks about java games

user15026

@originaluser now you are conflating a few different issues.

user15026

For the sake of argument.

3:05 PM

Well, I don't intend to step on anyone's toes so if you think I'm getting annoying with my rambling feel free to tell me to knock it off :)

Software that uses computing resources for other purposes ("cloud computing" or whatever) without express user permission is not ethical.

Full stop.

Don't care

Sounds like you care to me

Hue

user15026

@gnomeslice don't push it, okay?

@GnomeSlice Don't care as in "I don't care what the application is or how the user technically was told if they bothered to read the thing they agreed to"

Clown

Yeah, it's one thing for me to sign up for something like Folding@Home, it's an entirely different thing for someone to install a Bitcoin miner in the background.

3:06 PM

Well then

@MBraedley well miners are terrible because they take all your resources and turn your PC into a brick.

Sorry if I went a little too far. I just like having these kinds of technical discussions and I don't get many opportunities to have them

something that takes my bandwidth when not in use? what the fuck do i care

user15026

@originaluser knowing when to stop, though, is important.

@Rapitor Yes, that's the extreme example, but a salient one.

3:07 PM

Though the analogy with Hola is to sign up for Folding@Home and then have them use your cycles to mine Bitcoins.

I think it's a really interesting topic but I'm not technical enough to really hold up one side of the discussion

@AshleyNunn Point taken. I'll try to do better in the future.

Yuuki

@Rapitor The issue is that some people clearly do care. And it's better to ask if someone is willing give up extra cycles to Folding@Home rather than just assuming that most people won't care and do it anyways.

What the hell is folding@home

@Yuuki i guess my question to that is why care about it.

3:09 PM

Bandwidth cap

Because sometimes your bandwidth is limited?

Or maybe using your bandwidth to access kiddie porn

@GnomeSlice folding.stanford.edu

@GnomeSlice It's a program you download for distributed computing. Basically, everyone does a little bit of work to help fold proteins which are used for science

user15026

@Rapitor if someone is using my computer to do possibly illegal things without my knowledge that could get me in trouble like with this Hola botnet, along with using up my possibly limited bandwidth, I kinda want to know.

3:09 PM

It's 100% opt-in, though

For me at school, I can do 4 GB of stuff until I start getting throttled to shit

Oh I think that's the thing I heard about

Which means "install games on the academic network since that doesn't contribute to the cap"

Lol

In the hola example they were accessing a site that sounded like it had serious links to child porn, so that could easily get you flagged

Kevin van der Velden

3:11 PM

@Unionhawk per what time period?

@KevinvanderVelden 24 hours

Which is only ever a problem with steam downloads

@AshleyNunn can it legally affect you? The limited bandwidth argument sure, i constantly forget that is still a thing in areas.

Kevin van der Velden

@Unionhawk aah, that's decent

@Rapitor of course, there are plenty of laws where intent is irrelevant.

@Rapitor I doubt saying that you were a proxy for illegal stuff and wasn't actually doing it yourself would really get you anywhere in the court

@Rapitor Well let's consider the Hola example. Maybe the FBI is gathering data on the child porn site you are being contracted to DOS

user15026

3:12 PM

@chippies this.

as far as they can tell, you're a legitimate connection

so now YOU'RE a suspect

@Chippies It might. People have been cleared of charges when their router was open.

In a less extreme example, you're still being involved in a malicious action you did not consent to

@JasonBerkan but it's still a very gray area

The Hola stuff, though, is so technical, I'm not certain I'd want to trust a judge / jury on it.

3:14 PM

besides, can you even prove that you were just a proxy?

Even if they have a 100% benign and beneficial use for the bandwith, you didn't consent to it

@Chippies your history.

@Rapitor can be deleted?

@Rapitor hahahahahahahahahahahaha no

"MY HISTORY WAS EMPTY I DIDN'T EVER GO ON THE INTERNET" is not a valid defense

the ISP would see you connecting to the illegal stuff, wouldn't it? The ISP would have no way of telling if it's you or someone using you as a proxy

3:15 PM

@Chippies not completely. you have to go though various hoops to delete your history from chrome (your actual history, not your local one)

and those are the only logs that would probably matter

google still keeps everything on their end

@MBraedley ...it's not that extreme....

Your ISP would have no knowledge of it. Hola would.

@Rapitor what about incognito?

3:16 PM

other browsers idk

or not actually signing into account?

or, as you said, using another browser

a smart criminal probably wouldn't do illegal stuff on his main chrome account

@Rapitor Can be disabled

@djsmiley2k No it's worse. I hadn't read the article at that point, but what they're doing is supporting criminal activity.

Nod

ok, :D

once you read it its like. OH, yeah, that's NOT cool.

Whereas, you COULD install the archiveteam VM image and let it run

we do good stuff, yes we accidently killed posterous at one point, but then we brought them cake, so that's O.K.

That's just a problem with how hola chooses their clients

3:19 PM

I POINTED OUT how we almost had enough b/w to bring many sites down, it's a worry we have :/

Maybe they didnt know they were going to use it to DOS

the point i was trying to make was it would only be the IP hitting the site, and not a browser with caching, cookies, etc. ISP would still track that though so I guess my point is moot.

hmmm yup

@GnomeSlice Even then, this was done without user consent. Sure, the bandwith might just be going to waste otherwise, but it was the user's bandwith to do with as they wanted

Being involved in a DoS and then going 'but i wasn't logging into the site!' doesn't make your accessing the site any more legal.

3:21 PM

That may or may not be true, I've never heard of hola before, don't know how transparent they were on their site

but, even if/when consent is asked up front. will that really change anything? Maybe a few people will actually even read it and check it. I've probably signed my soul out many times with all the TOS I "accept"

@GnomeSlice apparently right on their faq they clearly say what they do.

It seems entirely possible to me this whole stink was only caused by the bandwidth being used as a botnet by some client

@Rapitor then someone, somewhere would point it out

Actually, now that I think about it, I think chrome disabled hola at one point for reasons

and yes, lots of users would STILL sign up, but at least it'd be public knowledge.

3:22 PM

So yeah people probably didnt read, didnt care, or didnt understand

@GnomeSlice Pretty opaque. I had to do some digging to figure out how the extension worked.

@Rapitor I think that gets into the larger issue of we need a better way for developers and users to reach an agreement. Something that is more transparent and understandable

@GnomeSlice no, it was never there.

Well sorry

It was partly there

'We allow other users to connect via you' was there

'We also use your b/w for our own business uses' wasn't

user58869

something like tl;dr

That's bad

user58869

3:24 PM

e.g. tldrlegal.com/license/apache-license-2.0-%28apache-2.0%29