@KevinvanderVelden If I recall correctly, it was a response to someone saying they couldn't afford it. Which, frankly, boils down to the same thing there. You can't exactly monitor if someone can afford it so it's an honour system no matter what.

Having used them as generators in Python and now C#, I find them quite lovely as a construct.

@tugs there's always boost.org/doc/libs/1_53_0/libs/coroutine/doc/html/index.html and the like

@StrixVaria @IanPugsley has said Roller Toaster Cycoon before.

@fbueckert

easiest badges ever

@KevinvanderVelden True, I've never used Boost. I'd like to.

@FEichinger I'm not sure what you're pointing at; the basic web policy?

> Hacking TimTech Software is not liable and will not be held responsible for any problems or damage arising from any content on this website that is connected with any sort or type of hacking, modding, reverse engineering, code injecting, viruses, DDoS software, pirating, and out-of-site links.

I hate the "I can't afford it" argument for pirating video games. That almost always means "I don't consider it a priority to spend actual money on. Cigarettes, booze, and handjobs from the massage parlor come first."

@FEichinger Sounds more like a generic, "We're not responsible for anything that happens to your computer, even if we told you to do it."

@Sterno I have the same reaction when told I'm "wasting money" on video games or MtG.

@fbueckert It does take a special kind of doublethink to embrace that section, though.

@Sterno Were you ever young? That was my argument as a kid.

@Sterno meh, depends on age, I couldn't buy many games when I was <16 because I had no job and so barely any income. Now I buy a lot of games

@JasonBerkan Yes, and I made that argument, and I knew I was full of shit when I was making it.

@FEichinger Who is this TimTech? Isn't he some minecraft user or something

@Sterno I don't consider it a bad argument, what would you prefer as a game developer? Someone not paying and not playing, or someone not paying but playing

Groupees Be Mine 9 Indie Bundle is live

Oh, he's that guy releasing cracked clients. Welp, time to contact Mojang

@Sterno shrugs - I'm fairly certain I have well paid back the companies I pirated games from back then.

I just want to take this moment to point out that we occasionally get good users too.

@JasonBerkan The only game I ever pirated was McPixel

and that's because he offered it

@Sterno Same

Plus there ARE free games

@Fistosaur what about Anodyne?

@GnomeSlice dafuq is dat

Although Anodyne isn't that great.

@KevinvanderVelden That's an entirely different argument. That's arguing it helps the developer rather than hurts them. Not that "I can't afford it." I want an itemized list of everything you've purchased in the last month before I will even consider your claim valid. Plus, if you don't have a job, even a minimum wage job flipping burgers, you'd better have a damn good reason before telling me "I can't afford it" is a valid excuse.

@Fistosaur another game where the devs hosted it on TPB for people who didn't want to buy it

And I mean the generic "you", here

Surreal zelda clone, sort of

@Sterno because I was a kid? For the no job reason

The sysadmin in my highschool had a huge affinity for minecraft, DL'd cracked clients to all the computers in the school

he got expelled

Anodyne

@KevinvanderVelden How old? I had actual paying jobs from about 14 on. And do you have an allowance? Fancy new $200 Nikes? Other shit you beg your parents to buy you that aren't necessities?

@Fistosaur I'd have expelled him for the java runtime...

I'm not saying there aren't a small set of people for which it's valid, but for most, "I can't afford" means "I could if I did without something else non-essential, but since I can get it for free and not have to give up the other thing, that's what I'm going to do."

@Sterno $200 nikes, Ha, if you knew me =p Most of the things I bought with my limited allowence were games and hardware for running said games

Yeah, I don't even know what Nikes cost. I'm old.

It was more me scoffing at the idea of spending that much money on bloody shoes

But I did not have allowance to buy all the games I wanted to play, especially on LANs, so I pirated some of them, and bought them when I could

@Sterno It's all about them heelies

I didn't have the allowance to play all the games I wanted to play, so I prioritized the ones I really wanted and bought those. Then saved up for the others later.

Or simply didn't get them.

I don't have the time to play all the games I want to play.

So I don't play any games at all.

@BenBrocka Reebok Pumps were the shiz

If you can't afford a game you want because you don't have a job, that sounds like a good reason to get a job.

@OrigamiRobot which is hard here in holland around age 14 =p

I did pirate for a while in college, and I claimed the "I can't afford it!" excuse, but knew that was crap. I think the main reason I did it was because it was really, really easy in a college environment. You didn't even have to download it yourself. Someone would just hand you some burnt discs.

@Sterno I only pirated games just to playtest (if no demos)

My univ was really scary

A friend had UTorrent installed on his laptop but never used it

I'm talking much younger than college. Too young to get a job. Lower class family - if my total allowance amounted to $200 from age 8 to 14, I would be amazed.

@Fistosaur I only use torrents for porn and music software.

Yeah. There was a lot of stuff I wanted and couldn't get either. And some I pirated. I'm totally agreeing with you about why people do it. I just disagree in that I think the excuse is BS. We are not entitled to not pay for games just because we can't afford them.

The mentality that it's okay bothers me.

I kinda don't even know how people remotely get the logic that "I can't afford it" is in any way legitimately an excuse to pirate.

Before we even look at whether or not you literally can afford it, it's a thing with a price tag attached! It's no more a valid excuse for gamery as it is for shopliftery.

It's just to make them feel better about it

@GraceNote I think because the excuse starts there but moves on to "And it won't actually hurt the developer since I can't afford it anyway, so it's a win for me and no loss for them"

@Sterno and according to quite a few studies probably a win for them as well

@Sterno Which is as dumb when applied to gaming as it is if I apply it to, say, designer clothes.

Music sales and the likes have shot up since piracy has increased, and statistally the people that pirate the most also spend the most.

Depends on their reason for pirating though

@GraceNote Yes and no. Digital goods can be reproduced out of thin air, deisgner clothes can't.

@GraceNote There is the argument that with physical good you are depriving someone else. It's not a good argument, but it gets made.

There's a big difference between people who pirate because "fuck it I wouldn't pay anyway" and "I am incapable of downloading this game legally so I will torrent it for now"

@GraceNote the comparison with shoplifting always seems just blatantly wrong to me, the copy vs remove bit.

It's not a matter of the physical exchange, it's a matter of the principle.

@KevinvanderVelden In the cases of the people who literally would never, ever have bought it even though all their friends were playing it and its really cool but they just couldn't afford it or convince a family member to give it to them as a birthday present or work the neighbors lawn and save up to buy it or whatever, sure.

@KevinvanderVelden It basically boils down to the theft argument again, which I really disagree with.

Yes, copyright infringment is totally not thievery because if it was it would be thievery and we wouldn't need "copyright infringment" to be a thing that exists to begin with

The problem is, people don't even try. They say, "Eh, I don't have $40 in my wallet. Pirate time!" and never revisit the idea of trying to legally acquire the game

While the copy vs remove distinction is true, it is not a valid justification for piracy.

Until, you know, 10 years later when they buy it in the bargain bin for $2 and say "Haha! Now I'm totally legal and valid! Debt paid!"

I don't think that a game being in digital copy in any way makes it any less ridiculous sounding than "I can't afford this dress, but I love it and I want to parade around in it, so I'll just take it. It's not money they would've gotten anyway since I couldn't afford it."

That said, it's the good ole "I can do it but should I do it?" question

@GraceNote except that now they can't sell the thing they've already produced which is a LOSS for them

@Sterno Hey, they could not even be spending those $2! :P

@KevinvanderVelden Principle of the matter is what I'm at.

So they're actively loosing money rather than passively not gaining money

@GraceNote and I'm saying that principally they're different

@KevinvanderVelden Not from the perspective of the one getting the thing.

@OrigamiRobot true, but from the person selling the thing it is

The thing is, I know when I was a kid and there was something I really, really wanted, I found a way to get it. Whether saving various small monies earned, asking for it as a gift, trading other things, selling things, whatever. If you want something, you find a way to make it happen.

@KevinvanderVelden The seller isn't making the excuse.

The quick fix of "I can't afford it, so I'll just pirate it" removes that incentive to come up with solutions on how to afford it.

@KevinvanderVelden And @GraceNote is looking at the getter's principles.

And thus, necessarily must deprive the publisher of at least some sales.

Particularly annoying are the assholes who pirate the game, don't like it, and then jump on the forums to tell everyone it sucks and not to buy it.

@Sterno except that according to nearly every study NOT paid for by the RIAA &co piracy has a net positive effect (long term)

@KevinvanderVelden Citation needed.

@Sterno Looking back, I have to think it actually was a bit like your college experience. I didn't pirate what I wanted, I pirated what was simple to obtain (i.e. the games my friends had and could quickly copy onto another floppy).

@Sterno will look it up :)

The only studies I've seen on either side have been pretty heavy pseudo-science.

@GraceNote The excuse is not being made in a vacuum?

At a fundamental, the sheer entitlement thought of "I don't have enough money to acquire an item, ergo it's okay for me to use means to acquire it at zero cost" completely undermines the entire concept of respectful exchange between parties. It's quite clear that if that is your "excuse" then you don't actually care and making excuses at that point is quite dumb. You're just doing it, just accept it.

@Sterno What's wrong with that? They can still have an opinion on the game even fi they didn't pay for it

For example: papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986299

@murgatroid99 Because it's a clear example where theft-but-not-really-theft of the product is probably going to result in actually costing the publisher sales

Regardless, as an adult, I'm time constrained, not money constrained, so piracy is useless, even if I still believed the "I have no money" argument.

But mostly, if you're illegally acquiring something, STFU about it cause I say so, that's why. :)

@JasonBerkan agreed, since getting a decent amount of income (as in, 100+ euro per month) I haven't pirated anything

@Sterno It sound like the bad rating is what will cost the publisher sales

Except where I've already bought the game but didn't want to worry about DRM >.>

@murgatroid99 That's my point.

@JasonBerkan Limited time is the worst.

@Sterno Pretty much - one could just be on their merry way and just not try to justify the act.

@Wipqozn Don't have four kids...

Now to play a game I've spend 0 dollar on but several hundred hours, Dota 2 :)

@murgatroid99 Example: Titan's Quest had an early cracked version that was buggy. A lot of people took to forums complaining that the game was buggy and sucked. The LEGIT copy was not.

@JasonBerkan Yeaaaahh I'm not looking forward to any obligations on that level

@Sterno Well that's a specific difference that you didn't capture in your first statement

@GraceNote What do you think of people who buy the "legitimate" game and then play the pirate one because the "legitimate" game is wrapped into awful, awful DRM that you want none of?

@GraceNote I've done this for AC2.

@Sterno The problem really is that people with pirated copies still feel entitled to the same treatment as people with legitimate copies.

And that is, frankly, bullshit.

This very likely led to less sales and revenue, so even if those pirates wouldn't have bought it ever themselves and you buy the argument that they therefore cost the publisher nothing, the trash talk resulting from them playing the pirated version still cost sales

@badp Are they making dumb excuses for it or are they just doing it?

I did read something once upon a time about some guy who wrote a comic. It did very poorly upon release and basically made no money. A few years later, some people uploaded it to a torrent site and it actually got popular and the actual book started selling a bit.

@badp A++, would pirate again.

@badp GTA 4 PC

@badp That doesn't change my question. Are you making dumb excuses about it?

There's a lot of reasons to pirate something that I have absolutely no problem with. For all I care, piracy has its benefits and downsides, like any other market force. But a pirate is not on the same grounds as a legitimate consumer, and pirates that feel that way are, honestly, disgusting.

@GraceNote I think I've just spelled it right out.

If you're not making dumb excuses I don't mind what you play.

@FEichinger I definitely agree with that. You should expect the service you pay for

Honestly, the act of pirating doesn't bug me much. It's the pirate's feeling of entitlement and justification that bothers me.

Bought the game, sat there waiting for the DRM to update itself from a thin wrapper to a full uPlay client, uninstalled the game and got it from bit torrent... then I found that the thin wrapper still wants you to login

and the workaround is running a server emulator

In fact it makes things easier just not to make excuses. I could not care any less which versions or acquisitions one uses to achieve their satisfaction, ain't my business unless people try to make it my business by giving dumb excuses.

@GraceNote Your business is to destroy dumb excuses?

@Sterno Justification isn't much my concern either. It eases their mind, it is at least an honest (or at least it should be, otherwise it's again: disgusting) reason why (even if it's not a good reason).

I own Wasteland on CD but have been playing a pirated copy because I'm too lazy to dig my disc out of the box in the basement.

@GraceNote Am I right in equating "dumb excuses" to "poor arguments that society's view on this issue should change"?

So if I ask any questions about it, close 'em all!

I owned a DS Flashcart because keeping up with multiple tiny bits of plastic that I paid $35 each for is a lot harder than keeping track of one. Especially on trips.

@tugs I don't think that trying to pass of "I do not have enough money to buy something" as something that actually validates and makes robbery A-OK is about changing society's view on issues.

@GraceNote Equating piracy and theft/robbery/whatnot is bad and you should feel bad for doing it.

@GraceNote It might be a poor argument in a poorly framed discussion, but why would a person go out of their way to make this "excuse" if not to try to change other people's minds?

The market effects of the latter are vastly different than the market effects of the former. Which in no way justifies either, but you just cannot compare them.

@FEichinger She's not equating the whole equation.

@tugs People make excuses for their actions all the time.

@badp That business is booming these days

@FEichinger This isn't about the market impacts at all.

@OrigamiRobot Yes, and that is just as much a poor argument as the one he's arguing against.

They're not doing it to change society views, but to justify their behaviour for whatever reason.

@FEichinger Except that the mentality is the same and comparing that is valid.

This is about the simple logic that "I only have $40, there's an item that costs $60" somehow validates acquiring the item without paying the price tag.

@Wipqozn The point I'm making is to say that they are justifying to sombody

@tugs Which they're doing to me for absolutely no reason and no impact, as it happens far too often for the fact that I never ask about these things ever.

@tugs Justifying and wanting to enact social change are two completely different things.

A child who takes a toy from another child then says "they told me I could play with it!" isn't trying to enact social change, they're trying to keep out of trouble.

@GraceNote But you have to take into account that there is a difference between acquiring a copy of something without paying for it and taking something without paying for it

@Wipqozn But you did tell me I could play with it! Why do you keep bringing this up!?

@GraceNote impact is at your (the receiver's) discretion though?

@murgatroid99 That can be their excuse if they want.

@OrigamiRobot Because I hate robots.

I took pictures of your naked wife through your window. It's cool though, since I didn't actually deprive you of seeing her naked.

@Wipqozn Again, I'd say avoiding trouble is quite the same as social change

@GraceNote That is part of the reasoning behind "I can't afford it." When you ask someone who says that, most of the time they will elaborate on that exact point. I can tell you, I did that, too, two years ago.

@GraceNote I'm not sure who the they is that we're talking about, I'm just saying that as different actions, they have to be considered separately in an ethical discussion

@tugs No, they're not, at all.

I honestly don't understand how you can think they are the same, unless you're using a different definition of social change.

@Sterno Hey man, I charge for naked pictures of my wife!

@Sterno I don't see how that's relevant, since the reason that that would be a problem is in no way related to the reason that piracy would be considered a problem

A child who steals a toy isn't trying to enact social change, they just wanted to play with the toy.

@BenBrocka That's why I just made copies!

@murgatroid99 I'm not concerned about ethics, it's about logical principle.

@murgatroid99 Hi, I'm Sterno. I say completely irrelevant shit all the time. :)

@GraceNote Then you're purely arguing the phrasing of the reasoning that the pirates present.

@Sterno The implication of an analogy was obvious

@Wipqozn No it's in the excuse that I see the attempt to change the social context in which they would get punished

@GraceNote Yes, and logically, they are two different things and have to be individually considered on their own terms

@murgatroid99 I've got an entire closet full of straw men behind me. Sometimes I trot them out. This isn't news!

@murgatroid99 I don't consider they are.

Honestly, if I saw someone taking pictures of a book in a bookstore, I'd think less of them than if they had just stolen it.

@FEichinger I do when they focus that inability to afford something has any amount of justification by itself, which people have done.

"I can't afford it" and "It is just a copy that doesn't deprive", to me, are two separate defenses.

@GraceNote Your original statement that started this reply chain seems to imply that taking a physical item without paying for it is logically equivalent to taking a digital copy without paying for it. I disagree with that assertion

One I don't care about, one is dumb.

@GraceNote The elaborate form of the "I can't afford it." argument in piracy is almost always "I can't afford it and they don't lose anything from it, so there's no harm." Which is a poor argument, but it is vastly different from theft/etc.

@Wipqozn Am I missing some key elements here? There's scale, there's authority, I dunno...

The part where they can't afford it is important insofar as - if they showed integrity, which they usually don't - they would buy it if they could - and also will when they can.

The difference lies in the part where it (allegedly) causes no harm, though.

@murgatroid99 Speaking of analogies though, where does piracy compare in relation to sneaking into the movie theater (which isn't full) to see a movie?

Saying "I can't afford this item so I will get it for free" is an equally valid justification whether its digital or physical. Zero. That is what @GraceNote is saying.

@murgatroid99 "Taking a digital copy without paying for it because one has insufficient funds" and "Taking a physical item without paying for it because one has insufficient funds" are equal to me.

@tugs You're missing the entire point of the excuse. To stay out of trouble. It's not about changing societys views on the issue.

@Sterno that seems like a pretty good comparison

I'm not saying that it's a good argument, or that it's even actually valid. But it is vastly different from theft, and equating the two purely on phrasing is not getting us anywhere in regards to piracy. We're just invalidating sound discussion by nitpicking on smaller parts - and equating them with stuff that's completely unrelated in the big picture.

You may not care about the big picture, but the big picture cares about you.

@FEichinger She isn't equating them. Just their justification value.

Basically.

@Sterno I think it is analogous. And I think that, like piracy, it does not uniformly harm the theater when that happens. The main difference is that the theater can throw you out

Also, it's probably trespassing

@Wipqozn In my mind the kid is already in trouble, the excuse is made to change that. In my mind the excuse is made to the authority, one part of society. Other than scale, I'm not sure where the difference is. Is it motive that I'm ignoring and you're focusing on?

@murgatroid99 That's not even a difference. Piracy can (theoretically) be combated, too. The problem is that you're essentially entering the movie theatre with an invisibility cloak (and tons of other people that do the same), for analogy's sake.

Also: You have a teleportation device.

I ordered a double big mac and I got a dobule burger

My day is ruined

I even paid for a double Big Mac

@FEichinger Also popcorn?

@GnomeSlice ...they have a burger that isn't a Big Mac?

@tugs You stole that from the counter, yes.

@GraceNote yeah, quarter pounder

Which is I guess what this is

double that is

@GraceNote Yea, a Dobule Burger

@tugs Scale and motive. The child isn't trying to make widespread change, he doesn't care whether the kid next door gets in trouble for doing the same thing, all he cares is that he personally doens't get in trouble. In other words, he's not trying to change society's view on the issue (stealing another kids toy), but just staying out of trouble.

@FEichinger OK, that wasn't even the important part of what I said. They are equivalent, and I think that they are equivalently not necessarily bad

@FEichinger Well, that's different. I can't pirate popcorn yet

@OrigamiRobot Hexit I'm glad I finished that gulp of my drink just then

@GnomeSlice Are you still there to complain and get the right burger? Because you should be able to do that, y'know.

@OrigamiRobot Which is all nice and dandy, but nitpicking there still does more harm than good. The justification is shit. But it is still an honest explanation.

@GraceNote Foiled again!

What's interesting is that in the case of the movie, without paying customers they wouldn't run the projector for that particular showing. You're only getting it for free because other people paid for it. If everybody shared the rationale that they weren't harming anyone if the theater isn't full, and everyone snuck in, there would be no movie to see. Therefore, someone has to pay so that everyone else can get it for free.

And really, it's the same for software.

@FEichinger Unfortunately, the person you're telling that to isn't talking about that.

Which is why it goes back to someone better having a damn good reason they can't truly "afford it" before I buy it as a legitimate excuse.

@OrigamiRobot And I'm saying they should at least care about it.

@GraceNote Oh no, I just sat back down at my desk after walking back to the college.

I ate it, but I didn't enjoy it

Okay I enjoyed it, but I didn't enjoy the fact that I enjoyed it.

@FEichinger They are not saying they don't care about what you're talking about.

Because principles and shit

@GnomeSlice Uf. Next time make sure of the sammich afore you leave the 'st'raunt lest you get hosed by the 'rong burger 'g'in.

@GraceNote I assumed that because I paid for a DBM I would get one. Next time I will inspect.

@Wipqozn Huh. Getting back to the real issue, whenever I've heard any piracy excuse it's been in the context of questioning&discussing piracy's legal/moral status. I guess that's why I see the motive as changing society's stance.

@Sterno That is true in both cases. That is actually a very close to equivalent analogy. Therefore, arguably, if there was a good reason to pirate a movie then it would also be a good reason to sneak into a theater

@tugs I'm sure that's why some people are doing, but there's probably just as many if not more that just want free games and are making excuses for why they don't want to pay. Whereas in reality it's nothing more than "I don't want to pay"

@Wipqozn STOP TALKING HERE AND HUNT MONSTERS WITH ME

@OrigamiRobot Aren't you still at work?

I have a 3DS now, theoretically, so I should possibly invest in some kind of monster hunting.

@GraceNote Get a Wii U so's ya can hunt with us'n.

I wish PC's could hunt monsters :(

@OrigamiRobot Not enough desirable items to validate a purchase.

@GraceNote I know the feels

@OrigamiRobot You never confirmed you were thouigh, just "I think"

@Wipqozn I never got a response!

...in fact I can't think of anything aside from that and (in the future) Smash (which I can just rely on a friend to have that) that piques my interest in the Wii U, and 1.2 items is not remotely enough.

@OrigamiRobot That's because I'm a jerk.

@GraceNote The ability to hunt with friends is worth more than 0.2!

@GraceNote Assuming you're talking about Super Smash Bros, have you ever heard of Megabyte Punch?

@OrigamiRobot That's the 1.0

Very similar gameplay on the PC, with a much better solo campaign.

megabytepunch.reptile-games.com

@GnomeSlice Heard of it like a million ye... wait I think I already called someone in here a dinosaur already.

Oh, I thought it was < 1.0 because you had the option for 3DS

@GraceNote Hah.

@GraceNote Was it @Sterno? Because @Sterno is really old.