The Nineteenth Byte

9:00 PM

Perhaps they made some especially for PPCG

Ahaha, bummer. My second attempt (which ran significantly faster) came in at 46203 compared to my lengthy brute-forcer of 46152 :-/

trichoplax

Next milestone: having enough rep to put a bounty on every challenge on the site

Nathan Merrill

@TimmyD this is for my challenge?

TimmyD

Yeah

Nathan Merrill

I'm wondering whether some sort of genetic algorithm might work

Martin Ender

9:01 PM

@trichoplax I think it's pretty much impossible to catch up with that.

El'endia Starman

@trichoplax Hmm, we're almost at 6,000 challenges, and minimum bounty is 50, which would require about 300,000 rep. The three-bounties-at-once limit means that you'll never catch up with the question post rate.

trichoplax

I guess now that we consistently have more than 4 challenges per day all hope is lost...

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@MartinEnder what if you ask all of the challenges?

Martin Ender

@El'endiaStarman you forgot a zero

Nathan Merrill

@El'endiaStarman couldn't you post then award immediately?

trichoplax

9:03 PM

@El'endiaStarman I just meant having enough rep, rather than actually doing it 3 per week for the rest of time :)

ArtOfCode

@NathanMerrill nah, you have to wait 24h

El'endia Starman

@NathanMerrill Actually, no. There's a waiting period for awarding bounties too.

@MartinEnder Wh00ps.

Martin Ender

but yeah even catching up is impossible without raking in tons of bounties yourself

trichoplax

With the number of questions going up by more than 4 per day, you'd have to more than rep cap consistently to catch up

ninjad...

Nathan Merrill

however, if the questions per day was lower, you'd have to get at least 50 rep on each question

El'endia Starman

9:04 PM

Hmm, next question: do we as a community have enough combined rep to bounty every single challenge? (Assuming 50 rep per bounty, for simplicity.)

Lynn

@trichoplax Okay, I had to do this:

“All I see is chains, hooks, forks…”

4

Nathan Merrill

so, answering each question AND getting 5 upvotes on each answer

@El'endiaStarman yes, because there are at least 5 upvotes on answers on each challenge

El'endia Starman

@NathanMerrill Well, there's no time limitation. Trickle rep from past answers works too.

Nathan Merrill

(on average)

right, but what really matters is the average number of upvotes

trichoplax

@Lynn That's going to mean nothing out of context when people see it later, but starred all the same :)

flawr

9:06 PM

@El'endiaStarman And someone always gets the bounty, so we do not lose any rep as a collective.

Nathan Merrill

more important question: how long would it take for Martin to transfer all his rep to me?

Lynn

(Hm, the parentheses ruin it. Jelly dislikes parentheses.)

Martin Ender

@NathanMerrill 100,000/1,500 days?

El'endia Starman

@NathanMerrill Hmm, I don't think that's quite a guarantee. If 90% of all users were fresh 1-rep users, and all the votes went to them, distributed appropriately, then you might not achieve that goal due to the privilege rep level.

Nathan Merrill

@MartinEnder nah, we have to adjust for your rep going up

Martin Ender

9:09 PM

then something like 100,000/1,300 days

trichoplax

As bizarre as it sounds, no one could accuse this conversation of not being about the site

3

Nathan Merrill

lol

Helka Homba

What's a quick pastry snack you can make without eggs or milk? (but plenty of butter, flour, sugar, yeast)

Martin Ender

Problems in Helka's life: you just need some baking help but everyone thinks you're trying to write a challenge.

9

Nathan Merrill

This guy is going through each of my questions and answering them

Helka Homba

9:16 PM

@MartinEnder I've already said my next ~~meal~~ challenge will involve turtles :P

Dr Green Eggs and Iron Man

@HelkaHomba no bake cookies?

Martin Ender

@HelkaHomba My wife says if you just use the butter, flour and sugar to can make cookies. butter:flour, 1:1 (or a bit more flour) and then some sugar

Nathan Merrill

oooh, I just got Trusted User!

Dr Green Eggs and Iron Man

Wait no, that needs milk.

Nathan Merrill

finally, I can edit tag wikis

LegionMammal978

9:19 PM

> (1389) The Nineteenth Byte | chat.stackexchange.com

._.

flawr

"Describe yourself in 3 words." - "Lazy."

4

Helka Homba

@MartinEnder Really? That's a very golfed recipe ._.

Martin Ender

I've taught her well.

flawr

@HelkaHomba Programming Puzzles & Cooking Golf

Martin Ender

(or maybe something got lost in me writing down what she said...)

trichoplax

9:23 PM

1:1 by volume or weight?

Nathan Merrill

expert golfers are able to use only a single cup of flour to make an entire batch of cookies

flawr

@trichoplax by colour

Martin Ender

@trichoplax by colour

damn

trichoplax

What???

Nathan Merrill

what a ninja

trichoplax

9:24 PM

It that a predictable response or do you both use the same RNG seed??

Helka Homba

I have to make my flour yellower? :S

zyabin101

@flawr Ohh, we're mixing SE sites? :3 I'm in!

Dr Green Eggs and Iron Man

I love how much the topic of this room varies. We'll talk about linguistics, cooking, vim, programming tips, code-golf, linux, etc. and none of it feels off-topic.

4

flawr

@HelkaHomba You just have to mix the ingredients it until it has the same colour

trichoplax

@MartinEnder @flawr is this a pun in German or am I missing something obvious? I assumed it was just random until you both said it...

flawr

9:27 PM

@NathanMerrill This guy's receipes is as close as you can get youtube.com/user/OnePotChefShow

betseg

Btw colour

flawr

@betseg That's what I wrote?

Martin Ender

@trichoplax as far as I'm concerned it was just random.

flawr

@trichoplax I've been laughing so hard for a few minutes straight=)

betseg

@flawr it just makes me happy.

flawr

9:29 PM

@betseg Great=)

Martin Ender

yeah I'm still smiling actually :D

flawr

@MartinEnder internet hi 5

trichoplax

@flawr I was baffled seeing it from the outside. I don't know how confused I'd be if it had happened to me... :)

betseg

@flawr why was 4 scared of 5?

flawr

And I was (unsuccessfully) trying to come up with an answer that justifies our answer=)

Lynn

9:31 PM

I’m smiling and I don’t get the joke. ;w;

flawr

@Lynn There is no joke, that's the funny thing=)

Downgoat

@HelkaHomba ;_; y u eat trichoplax

trichoplax

@Downgoat Relax. Python turtles are a renewable resource

Downgoat

._.

trichoplax

So are trichoplax for that matter. There are plenty more in the sea

quartata

9:33 PM

I haven't ever gotten the opportunity to eat turtle unfortunately

Lynn

@flawr :D How does that happen?!

Downgoat

:/ Martin's PPCG page says:

Helka Homba

What ambient indoor temperature would you guys start describing as uncomfortably hot? I'd say 85F+

Downgoat

> top 0.04% overall

> top overall

@StackExchange ftfy

flawr

@Lynn I have honestly not the slightest clue.

quartata

9:35 PM

@HelkaHomba 81F+

flawr

@HelkaHomba Depends on the humidity and whether it is sunny or cloudy.

Downgoat

@HelkaHomba 83+ is uncomfortable. 90ish is what I'd call "hot hot"

Hello @MᴀʀsUʟᴛᴏʀ!

Martin Ender

what is that in real units?

3

Nathan Merrill

woooh, my KoTH works!

@HelkaHomba am I in shade?

El'endia Starman

@MartinEnder That is astounding.

Downgoat

9:39 PM

@MartinEnder 301.4 and 305.4 respectively (big congrats on 100k too btw!)

Nathan Merrill

if so, then I'm actually ok up to around 95 degrees

Lynn

I feel like 25°C is pretty warm. v.v;;

flawr

@Downgoat 100K is still quite cold.

trichoplax

@Lynn That's my limit in still air. I can cope with more if there's a breeze

Lynn

At 30°C I start making up excuses to move to Sweden

Downgoat

9:40 PM

@flawr no I have 301.4 and 305.4 in kelvin already

29

Q: I hereby declare the 22nd of September each year to be Bear Day!

Thomas Pornin, one of the most distinguished members of our community has reached 100k rep, a terrific milestone! A complete list of his contributions to the site is probably way too long to fit into a single post, so here are some of the more notable ones. An incredible answer speculating a...

discussion

can we declare today as Ender Day? :3

mbomb007

This challenge -> Partial Solution (Not meant to be offensive)

Helka Homba

Oh yeah

Congratulations on 100k rep @MartinEnder!

21

(did we already celebrate?)

mbomb007

@HelkaHomba :O

Downgoat

49 mins ago, by Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Happy 100K @MartinEnder! This is an amazing event, you deserve it.

@HelkaHomba yes ^

but yours is more bold so ill star that too

Martin Ender

@HelkaHomba thanks :)

mbomb007

9:42 PM

Did you land exactly on 100K?

Martin Ender

for about 3 seconds while someone was going on a voting spree

mbomb007

I'm sure it was fun while it lasted, lol.

Dr Green Eggs and Iron Man

Did you screenshot it?

Downgoat

@Downgoat question: before i bother to make a meta post. is this OK or should i rather not?

mınxomaτ

2

Nathan Merrill

9:43 PM

@MartinEnder you might be getting more attention today than on your birthday

Downgoat

@DrGreenEggsandIronMan who needs screenshot when you have dev tools enabled :P

LegionMammal978

Weird how I reach 10k and @MartinEnder reaches 100k within like 3 days

Downgoat

@NathanMerrill green internet points > annual celebration of birth

LegionMammal978

^

mbomb007

@mınxomaτ This hurts my eyes.

Downgoat

9:45 PM

1 min ago, by Downgoat

@Downgoat question: before i bother to make a meta post. is this OK or should i rather not?

not to be naggy but pls

Martin Ender

@LegionMammal978 we must be soulmates

Helka Homba

@Downgoat Or just html inspection

12

LegionMammal978

Question: Is there anywhere where one can automagically generate SE usercards?

Downgoat

@LegionMammal978 usercard is....?

Dr Green Eggs and Iron Man

@Downgoat I don't think "Ender day" has quite the same ring as "Bear day"

Helka Homba

9:47 PM

@DrGreenEggsandIronMan sounds apocalyptic...

LegionMammal978

@Downgoat Something like:

Martin Ender

@DrGreenEggsandIronMan Excuse me?!

Nathan Merrill

Marti(a)n day?

Dr Green Eggs and Iron Man

@MartinEnder Hey, it's not too late to change your profile pic to a bear.

2

Downgoat

*or a goat

Helka Homba

9:49 PM

@LegionMammal978 there's a link that generates those per user. Forget what it is

Dr Green Eggs and Iron Man

@Downgoat if/when you hit 100k, I will put my heart and soul into making goat day a thing.

Downgoat

strawpoll.me/10891014

@DrGreenEggsandIronMan :D thank you

flawr

@LegionMammal978 Profile > Edit Profile & Settings > Flair

Dr Green Eggs and Iron Man

@Downgoat No problem! I'll even celebrate it in real life, by feasting on green eggs and roasted goat!

Downgoat

ok i am not dealing with this again

LegionMammal978

9:51 PM

yay

quartata

@DrGreenEggsandIronMan Goat and eggs is probably pretty good

LegionMammal978

Dr Green Eggs and Iron Man

I have a nice even number right now. Can't wait to get to 10k.

Downgoat

qusetion: if i make joke about java code being really long will that be considered Java bashing and result in me getting downvotes?

@DrGreenEggsandIronMan brb serial voting

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat yes that's a surefire way to get downgoated

New Sandboxed Posts

10:05 PM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Conquer the Torus! Your job is to conquer the torus, but wait, there are multiple other players banded together in teams facing you! You will need to use your wit's to conquer the torus. There are three teams: red, blue and green. You are red if your programming id is divisible by three, blue i...

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

^ High quality challenge

Dmitry Kudriavtsev

Can anyone look at my new string processing/interpolation language?

gist.github.com/dkudriavtsev/ab660b85f08581586493e4883dfbc541

Downgoat

@RohanJhunjhunwala its ok it was joke

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

k

im a staunch defender of java :D

although it is a dubious language (security)

Downgoat

@DmitryKudriavtsev -1 not enough Unicode characters and unreadable syntax not real golfing lang :P

Dmitry Kudriavtsev

10:07 PM

@Downgoat I'm dying of sarcasm

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Dimitry i dont think its turing complete

Dmitry Kudriavtsev

it is. there's loops and jump if not zero. you can also nest loops.

Downgoat

Add regex support. Boom valid ppcg language

and recursive regex and you get turing complete

Dmitry Kudriavtsev

ooh. does ruby have a regex library?

I'm writing the interpreter in ruby

quartata

/.../

Dmitry Kudriavtsev

10:09 PM

No, I mean procesing regex

Is there a Regex class?

Regexp, ok

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@DmitryKudriavtsev oh yeah missed that, it is turing complete

Has anyone made a k-o-t-h called enders game?

Dmitry Kudriavtsev

ok, got it

@RohanJhunjhunwala there is a search function...

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

i couldnt find one

Nathan Merrill

hey, Java question. I've developed two libraries (in seperate github repos), one of them depends on the other. What's the easiest way to get people this code for a KoTH?

Dmitry Kudriavtsev

@NathanMerrill send them the gthub links

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

10:11 PM

@NathanMerrill ^

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

King of the Torus! Your job is to conquer the torus, but wait, there are multiple other players banded together in teams facing you! You will need to use your wit's to conquer the torus. There are three teams: red, blue and green. You are red if your programming id is divisible by three, blue i...

betseg

I'm gonna sleep see you tomorrow

Nathan Merrill

@DmitryKudriavtsev right, but how do they know how to hook them up?

Dmitry Kudriavtsev

@NathanMerrill I would.

flawr

@NathanMerrill Make a zip of the whole folder structure, such that people do not have to fiddle around.

Dmitry Kudriavtsev

And if I didn't I would google it

Selling on Amazon is harder than it seems

Nathan Merrill

10:16 PM

@flawr I'm not sure how Java "hooks up" two adjacent code bases, and if that would be included in my zip file

flawr

@NathanMerrill Each package into one folder?

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

Nathan Merril, generally you want to package it in to a jar and add it into the dependencies folder

or what flawr said

just copy the package in to the source folder.

What ide do u use?

Nathan Merrill

I don't really want to have to put it in a Jar each time

intelliJ

flawr

@NathanMerrill Can you send us a link?

bleh

@DrGreenEggsandIronMan congrats for having the pi message

Nathan Merrill

10:22 PM

ok, let me ask this a different way. In IntelliJ, I have to go into my project settings and add a content root

I'm not sure what that does from a codebase standpoint

@flawr give me a sec

Dr Green Eggs and Iron Man

@bleh haha, it took me a while to get what you mean, but that's pretty great

quartata

@NathanMerrill Maven?

Little bulky

You can merge the two JARs into one big one too and have people build against that

Nathan Merrill

no way

I'm looking for easy access

github.com/nathanmerrill/StockExchange

github.com/nathanmerrill/KoTHComm

StockExchange hooks up with KoTHComm

if one of you wants to try and run StockExchange, that would be awesome

quartata

I guess I'm not quite sure what you want

It's not gonna get any easier than having it in one jar

Nathan Merrill

a Jar works, but the problem is that any time I make an update, I have to make a new jar, and everybody has to redownload it

and, each new bot means a new update

actually, I don't think its possible with a Jar

because they have to add their own Java class

quartata

10:37 PM

I think the problem is you need to split it up into something that the client bots link to and the actual controller logic for running the bots

Then the controller can dynamically load the classes and have them inherit all the stuff they need

Nathan Merrill

I would create a third project with the bot classes?

quartata

Third?

Nathan Merrill

well, client bots can be in Java

meaning they inherit a class

quartata

It would be two JARs, one that the bots use and you never have to change and one that you update and use internally to run the bots

Nathan Merrill

a JAR is still compiled code, though, right?

quartata

10:39 PM

Yes...?

Nathan Merrill

meaning that they would still have to download the code (not a JAR) to add their own class

quartata

They don't have to add their own classes

Nathan Merrill

Any Java submission does

quartata

You put the user-created bot classes in a folder and have a text file with the bot names

Then the controller uses reflection to load them

That's my point

The controller and the library with the Bot class that submissions extend can be separate

Nathan Merrill

hmmm, so I'd have 3 repos, then

no, 2

quartata

10:41 PM

Why 3? You'd only need one

Nathan Merrill

no, I need at least 2 (one for KoTHComm, one for StockExchange)

quartata

Oh

Nathan Merrill

ok, so the user would download a JAR, and a zip file of all of the submissions

flawr

Why not everyhting in one zip?

Nathan Merrill

oh, you're right

then I could do incremental updates with zip files of submissions

quartata

10:46 PM

@NathanMerrill Why do they need the submissions though? They won't be running the controller will they?

Nathan Merrill

@quartata lots of people want to run it themselves

its not necessary, but it can be useful

quartata

All right, fair enough

Nathan Merrill

if I instantiate a class via reflection, will method calls on that class be slower?

(the method calls aren't via reflection)

quartata

No, it should be a normal instance

If it is slower (which I highly doubt, lemme know if it is) you could instead emit source code that creates the appropriate classes and stuff and then compile it, it would mean a slower start obviously

Nathan Merrill

hmmm...how do imports work?

quartata

10:53 PM

ClassLoader.loadClass is what you're looking for I believe

Nathan Merrill

@quartata that loads classes by name that are already imported

oh, you're right

quartata

@NathanMerrill Don't think so

Nathan Merrill

found the SO post

quartata

All right, good. I don't quite remember how to get the current class loader but that should be easy

Nathan Merrill

how do imports work on the imported classes?

the docs don't say anything

Mᴀʀs Uʟᴛᴏʀ

11:01 PM

looks like classloader is how java loads classes normally as well

LegionMammal978

^

Mᴀʀs Uʟᴛᴏʀ

so imports should work normally

@NathanMerrill "hooks up"?

@NathanMerrill wouldn't redownloading the zipfile be really annoying?

Nathan Merrill

how does one project know about another project

@MᴀʀsUʟᴛᴏʀ I'd provide incremental updates for submissions

but it'd be a single download for the whole project

Mᴀʀs Uʟᴛᴏʀ

incremental?

Nathan Merrill

a zip file containing all submissions, no more

Mᴀʀs Uʟᴛᴏʀ

11:10 PM

but people still have to download the entire zipfile every time?

Nathan Merrill

they don't have to. Only if they want to run against the latest bots

Mᴀʀs Uʟᴛᴏʀ

wouldn't having them uncompressed in a git repo be a lot faster to update?

Nathan Merrill

oh, that'll happen too, but the git repo is harder to setup

Mᴀʀs Uʟᴛᴏʀ

what do you mean?

Nathan Merrill

because there will be 2 repos, and you have to include one in the other

Mᴀʀs Uʟᴛᴏʀ

11:18 PM

wat

you can't use git submodules?

Nathan Merrill

no. One of the repos has the possibility to be included in multiple other projects

aka, I have two adjacent projects, StockExchange and KoTHComm. If I wanted both of them in the same repo, I'd run into conflicts when I tried to make another KoTH that used the KoTHComm

Mᴀʀs Uʟᴛᴏʀ

?

just include kothcomm as a submodule?

Nathan Merrill

but kothcomm isn't inside stockexchange

Mᴀʀs Uʟᴛᴏʀ

then have a repo that includes both of them as a submodule then?

Nathan Merrill

my filestructure looks like /Projects/KoTHComm, /Projects/StockExchange

if I put the repo in StockExchange, it can't include KoTHComm. If I put the repo in Projects, then when I create /Projects/StockExchange2, I can't create a repo that includes both StockExchange2 and KoTHComm

Mᴀʀs Uʟᴛᴏʀ

11:26 PM

why not

Nathan Merrill

they'd be in the same directory, Projects

you can't have two repos in the same directory

Mᴀʀs Uʟᴛᴏʀ

you can have two submodules in the same directory

well, kinda

basically, make kothcomm a repo, same as stockexchange and stockexchange2

Nathan Merrill

^ thats how it currently works

Mᴀʀs Uʟᴛᴏʀ

use kothcomm and the challenge server as submodules in another git repo

Nathan Merrill

but where does that other git repo live?

Mᴀʀs Uʟᴛᴏʀ

11:28 PM

anywhere?

probably would have the projects dir

Nathan Merrill

but then, next time I have a new KoTH, I'd have to have two repos in the same projects directory

Mᴀʀs Uʟᴛᴏʀ

oh

yeah, then make the repo with both as submodules in some other subdir

basically just any other directory

Nathan Merrill

but then I'd have multiple copies of KoTHComm

Mᴀʀs Uʟᴛᴏʀ

well, it's a lot easier

no setup required since you can set it up

Nathan Merrill

no, the easiest method is download a zip, add your file and run

Mᴀʀs Uʟᴛᴏʀ

11:32 PM

git provides easy updates

Nathan Merrill

right, and if you want that, then you setup the code like its supposed to work

and then, on my next challenge, you don't even need to redownload KoTHComm

Mᴀʀs Uʟᴛᴏʀ

?

hmm

quartata

You should use KoTHComm as a git submodule yeah

Mᴀʀs Uʟᴛᴏʀ

then provide a setup script?

Nathan Merrill

@quartata but then I have multiple copies of KoTHComm floating around

quartata

11:33 PM

?

If it's just one library what's the problem

Mᴀʀs Uʟᴛᴏʀ

@NathanMerrill think of kothcomm as a dependency

Nathan Merrill

@quartata because the next time I update KoTHComm, I have to git pull it everywhere else

Mᴀʀs Uʟᴛᴏʀ

otherwise, just provide a setup script

Nathan Merrill

when you create a new Java project, you don't copy all of the base java class files over again

they all reference a single location

@MᴀʀsUʟᴛᴏʀ a setup script is feasible, except it'd be windows only (I don't have a linux machine), and I'm entirely sure how to do it outside of my IDE

Mᴀʀs Uʟᴛᴏʀ

@NathanMerrill 0/10 use c9 for linux

quartata

11:37 PM

@NathanMerrill It's a submodule

Nathan Merrill

c9 gives you access to the filesystem? That's cool

@quartata your point?

New Main Posts

0

Q: Number of cycles of a permutation

Consider a permutation of the integers 1, ..., n, such as this one for n = 6: [5,2,4,3,6,1] If you view the permutation as a mapping from [1,2,3,4,5,6] to [5,2,4,3,6,1], the permutation can be decomponsed into disjoint cycles. A cycle is a subset of elements that map to each other. For example...