The Nineteenth Byte

orlp

6:00 PM

it's not even an alpha yet, just the trunk

not even sure if pip will work with it

Downgoat

is Google Code Jam like code-golfing competition or what?

epicTCK

You should not read from standard input. The input will be provided through a library function specified for each problem. Each node will get the same input. You need to include/import the library into your solution, using:

#include "problem_name.h" in C and C++
import problem_name in Python
uses problem_name; in Pascal
it gets imported automatically in Java

so how would I use javascript?

orlp

@Downgoat it's speed coding

Downgoat

oh

so fastest-coder-in-the-west

orlp

these are my instructions for building Python 3.6: gist.github.com/orlp/7295cdfd887ac04599a0de9e12c3ff9e

Chris Jester-Young

6:00 PM

@epicTCK Node.

zyabin101

@epicTCK You don't.

orlp

I had to patch one file

Downgoat

@epicTCK spidermonkey

orlp

but not sure why/whether it's even correct

epicTCK

@ChrisJester-Young so how would I import though...

Sherlock9

6:01 PM

@orlp Dang. I'll wait for the alpha then

zyabin101

You just translate it to Java.

Chris Jester-Young

@epicTCK var foo = require('foo');

orlp

@Sherlock9 why

epicTCK

@ChrisJester-Young you sure they accept node though..?

Sherlock9

Because I like my Python installations to be nice and simple

Chris Jester-Young

6:01 PM

@epicTCK What contest are we talking about?

epicTCK

@ChrisJester-Young google code jam

zyabin101

JavaScript in Java ==> True, so you should have little to no problem doing JavaScript ==> Java.

orlp

@Sherlock9 you can just install it in a directory and not set up any PATH/shortcuts

Chris Jester-Young

@epicTCK Google Code Jam is a contest where you write all your code yourself. The problem is given in input data sets, which your code reads, and you submit the correct output.

@epicTCK You run the code on your own computer.

orlp

it's a bit like project euler

Chris Jester-Young

6:03 PM

They don't have a Docker instance to run your code in. ;-)

@orlp Right.

@epicTCK So yes, you can write Node solutions.

Sherlock9

@orlp Very well, but I'll have to download it when my Internet connection doesn't suck 38 MB may take 3 hours wtf

Nathan Merrill

registered for codejam :)

Chris Jester-Young

:-D

zyabin101

@orlp ur python 3.6 doesn't work @_@

Agawa001

lol do i see barely no stars in the curent page ?

Nathan Merrill

6:04 PM

usually the input is pretty small

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ no problem :D

Chris Jester-Young

@NathanMerrill Come join the chat in "#gcj#{1+1}". :-)

zyabin101

@zyabin101 Get a sane machine.

Nathan Merrill

linky?

Chris Jester-Young

irc://chat.freenode.net/gcj2 ;-)

Nathan Merrill

6:04 PM

ah, its irc

I don't want to install a client

Downgoat

> There is no application set to open the URL irc://chat.freenode.net/gcj2.

Bummer. Oh well.

D:

oh, its freenode

@NathanMerrill webchat.freenode.net

orlp

6:05 PM

@zyabin101 in what way does it not work?

Nathan Merrill

yeah

zyabin101

@orlp Looks like my machine isn't sane enough to run 3.6 XP

epicTCK

so I assume I can't just use some random codegolf language for code jam...

Nathan Merrill

why 2?

zyabin101

Thanks, no help needed.

Nathan Merrill

6:06 PM

what's on gcj?

Downgoat

I think I joined something

orlp

@zyabin101 please tell me where the issue lies

what error do you get?

Chris Jester-Young

@NathanMerrill #gcj is the official channel, which is muted during the contest. #gcj2 is unofficial. Still no cheating allowed, but people can talk during the contest.

Downgoat

@ChrisJester-Young what is the channel I'm supposed to join

zyabin101

@orlp The installer just terminates, returning a "Resolving problem via web" message.

Agawa001

6:07 PM

what is the great point of jammed codes since they are unfolded once before getting compiled

Chris Jester-Young

@Downgoat Whichever you want.

zyabin101

Maybe the system has to be better than vista.

Agawa001

unless there is some special compiler

orlp

@zyabin101 odd one sec

Nathan Merrill

Solutions will run using Python 2.7.3 for Python XP

zyabin101

6:08 PM

@orlp I have Windows Vista x86.

Downgoat

> A grand prize of $15,000 and earning the title of 2016 Code Jam World Champion.

TimmyD

@zyabin101 Vista got a bad rap because Microsoft needed to drastically change the driver architecture API, and hardware vendors ignored it.

Downgoat

damn, I could but I lot of goat-sized keyboard for $15K

Geobits

@TimmyD Well, and also because it sucked :P

TimmyD

@zyabin101 Oh, or did you mean "newer than Vista"?

zyabin101

6:09 PM

@TimmyD Yup.

TimmyD

@Geobits Y'know what Windows 7 is? Vista with a slightly prettier GUI, a different label on the box, and several years to let hardware vendors get their heads out of their collective behinds and actually write decent drivers.

Geobits

@TimmyD Exactly. It's what Vista should have been, but wasn't. They released a half-baked OS with no support.

TimmyD

So it's Microsoft's fault that hardware vendors didn't update software? Okay ...

epicTCK

Optimizer

we all complain about windows and say OSX is best, but we forget that OSX has only one hardware vendor while windows has hundreds

Chris Jester-Young

6:12 PM

Time to standardise Windows execution platforms! It will be Hyper-V only going forward. :-P

trichoplax

@epicTCK Use whatever you wish

Lembik

@TonHospel all sounding pretty awesome :)

Geobits

@TimmyD More that it's their fault for going ahead and releasing it before they did update drivers. Sure, it's a good way to push them to, but it's also a good way to get heavily criticized.

Chris Jester-Young

@epicTCK You can! I've solved GCJ problems in GolfScript some years ago.

Downgoat

@epicTCK 8/10 not upsidedown

epicTCK

6:13 PM

@ChrisJester-Young would it be faster do you think?

TimmyD

@ChrisJester-Young Hell, that's essentially what UWP is on the back-end.

Downgoat

when does code jam start?

Chris Jester-Young

@TimmyD :-D

@epicTCK No, you'd only do it for fun.

Nathan Merrill

4 hours

Downgoat

oh wow

Geobits

6:13 PM

As an OS vendor (and the big one at that), they should have known the state of the driver side of things, because they should have been talking to the hardware vendors. If they knew and released it, then yes, they deserve some blame.

Agawa001

ah look!! .... a star ...... i feel in the right place now

Optimizer

@TimmyD UWP is the universal apps ecosystem?

TimmyD

@Optimizer Right.

Xbox One is already running a flavor of Hyper-V

Optimizer

@Geobits they can't possible talk to all of them. and major vendors had drivers. tbh, I feel vista was a software fault

TimmyD

The summer update coming in a couple months is going to make it better.

Optimizer

6:15 PM

@TimmyD yeah.. within an year, they have expanded the UWP to all of their devices, allowing cross device synergy..

Geobits

@Optimizer Microsoft is definitely talking to all major ones about stuff like this. There is no way they didn't know about the massive lack of support.

Optimizer

cortana across device!

@Geobits umm, this is what i wrote?

Downgoat

what should happen when a sqrt "foo" (square root on a string) is run?

Optimizer

> "bar"

Geobits

@Downgoat Clearly that's base64 :P

Downgoat

6:17 PM

@Optimizer bar =/= sqrt "foo"

@Geobits no, it's just a normal string

wat.

Geobits

An honest answer? Nothing, or an error. Don't try to square root strings. It makes no sense and overloading it to something arbitrary is silly.

Anonymous

sqrt(str) should be an error

Downgoat

@QPaysTaxes you must of not had enough coffee

@Mego oj

TimmyD

@Geobits Are you serious? Vista had probably the largest beta-test and developer-preview support of any of Microsoft's operating systems. It was already going to be the longest lag between releases (XP to Vista) of any OS they've produced. What is Microsoft supposed to do? Code the drivers themselves? They stuck to it, took the brunt of the bad feelings, and when hardware vendors caught up, released a polished version that became their best seller ever.

Downgoat

:/

trichoplax

6:20 PM

@Downgoat If you've defined multiplication for str * str then go ahead and define the square root too. Otherwise definitely not

TimmyD

@QPaysTaxes Windows 7

@QPaysTaxes PowerShell begs to differ

PS C:\Tools\Scripts\golfing> [math]::Sqrt("36")
6

:D

Downgoat

what should the behavior be formultiplieng strings ame?

Agawa001

some one knows which technique is appoached in this answer

Downgoat

e.g. "foo" * "foo:

epicTCK

@Agawa001 you forgot to paste a link

ugg ninja'd

Anonymous

6:21 PM

Exceptions are for exceptional circumstances. Trying to apply mathematical operators where they don't make sense is an exceptional circumstance. Throw an exception.

Geobits

@TimmyD None of which matters to consumers when they plug in their mouse, sound card, or whatever and it doesn't work. That's essentially the same complaint linux has been fighting forever, so it shouldn't be waved away for microsoft either.

trichoplax

@Downgoat I can't imagine a reason for being able to multiply two strings. If you have such a reason, that reason should guide your implementation

Anonymous

I plugged in my wireless mouse in Linux and it triggered the Emergency Alert System

Downgoat

@trichoplax ok, It'll be throwing an error than

Agawa001

is this a suffix tree ?

doesnt seem so

trichoplax

6:22 PM

@Downgoat Good plan :)

Anonymous

@orlp I might love you for that windows installer

TimmyD

@Geobits I'm not trying to wave it away, but Microsoft took the best approach they could to get the developers to actually do.

Anonymous

And since it's not April 1, I have no fear in clicking on a link on the internet

trichoplax

@Mego Is that the OS equivalent of "Eeek! A mouse!"?

3

Anonymous

@trichoplax Something like that

Downgoat

6:24 PM

how should operator overloading work? If I let classes define a function which takes the two sides of the operator. e.g. A + B, what if both A and B overload the + operator?

Anonymous

LHS has precedence

Anonymous

Or better yet, don't get yourself into such confusing scenarios

Anonymous

Don't make/allow ambiguous overload scenarios

Downgoat

@QPaysTaxes yeah, but how would the interpreter descide which class's overload to use?

Nathan Merrill

@Downgoat are you defining extension methods like I described before?

Downgoat

6:26 PM

@NathanMerrill I'm deciding on how operator overloading should work

@QPaysTaxes hm, okay, that makes sense

Nathan Merrill

right, but my answer depends on whether you are allowing extension methods

Downgoat

@QPaysTaxes ._.

@NathanMerrill if that means what I think it means, yes.

Nathan Merrill

@Downgoat it means that I can define a method for a class that I didn't declare

Downgoat

@NathanMerrill as in:

Agawa001

i had devoted 2 months for arborescent structure of lcs, i stopped developping it when it refuses to refrain from giving birth to bugs like fly eggs

Downgoat

6:28 PM

class A {/*...*/ }
variable := A:()
variable.extensionMethod := /*function*?

@Agawa001 lcs?

Nathan Merrill

sort of, except that extension methods are defined for every variable of that type

trichoplax

@Downgoat If you're going for confusing, set up an precedence order for types, then favour the LHS if the precedence is equal, unless a type of the LHS is only overloaded for use on the RHS, then follow the RHS unless that only works from the LHS in which case switch the sides otherwise error

Downgoat

@trichoplax oh shit that's bad

Agawa001

cover this bug, see this bug coming, burry this flaw see this one proliferating, w t bloody heck ?

Nathan Merrill

A.extensionMethod := /* function  */

Sherlock9

6:29 PM

Hi Mego

Agawa001

@Downgoat yes longest common sub-string

trichoplax

@QPaysTaxes Yes your way is far better - mine was an example of what not to do :)

Downgoat

@NathanMerrill okay, I guess could allow those. Shuold I?

@Agawa001 oh ok

Sherlock9

@Mego I put in a sane pull request for Seriously docs

Nathan Merrill

@Downgoat I like them a lot :)

Anonymous

6:30 PM

Actually I decided not to try to type out VB.NET code

Anonymous

Python does it way better

quartata

I did something correctly in C with malloc without leaking memory

Downgoat

@quartata \o/

TimmyD

Yay!

Nathan Merrill

if you do support them, then the class used is always the left operator

Anonymous

6:31 PM

@quartata citation-needed

quartata

@Mego no really I checked with valgrind

I can't believe it myself

flawr

citation-overflow

Downgoat

@QPaysTaxes ok, seems good. Ruby is weird though

since when is + a valid property name???/

Nathan Merrill

Class A {
    __add__ := (b: B) <= a + b
}
B.__add__ := A.__add__

Anonymous

@Sherlock9 You're gonna hate me :)

Sherlock9

6:33 PM

That sounds like good news

Downgoat

still...

Anonymous

Numeric parsing is different and way better in v2, and ^ is XOR instead of exponentiation (ⁿ is exponentiation now). These docs are a good start for v1, though.

Sherlock9

Should I just start on v2?

Nathan Merrill

@QPaysTaxes the problem with that is that it makes things white space specific

Downgoat

in Cheddar should ^ be xor or exponentiation?

@NathanMerrill whoops, trypo

Anonymous

6:36 PM

@Sherlock9 Nah v1 needs docs more than v2

Sherlock9

Are we keeping v1 around?

Nathan Merrill

right, but how do you define a method by +

the syntax gets really messy

Sherlock9

For backwards compatibility and such?

Nathan Merrill

but he doesn't define methods like that in the first place

methods are just properties

Anonymous

@Sherlock9 Yes, because, until I get v2 to where I want it to be, v1 will still be superior for certain things

Nathan Merrill

6:37 PM

meaning you have classes like:

class A{
    a
    +
    b
}

Agawa001

how many moderators are there actually in this room, grr this s the most controlled spot of the network including non-beta sites

Downgoat

@Agawa001 only 7

Nathan Merrill

def is not required for his language

so you can't do def

nah

:)

@Downgoat exponents

Downgoat

okay

what should xor be then?

b^?

Nathan Merrill

xor

Downgoat

6:39 PM

oh okay

yeah, that's what I was doing

duh,

should subtracting an integer and a string try to do some implicit casting or just throw an error?

epicTCK

can I get a link to cheddar @Downgoat

Downgoat

e.g. 3-"2" should it be 1 or errro

@QPaysTaxes ok

@epicTCK sure, the github or the c9?

epicTCK

github I guess

Nathan Merrill

@Downgoat error

Downgoat

github.com/vihanb/Cheddar

Nathan Merrill

6:41 PM

never implicity cast

Downgoat

never JavaScript

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

^

Anonymous

Explicit is better than implicit

Nathan Merrill

if you want implicit casting, then classes should be able to define the datatypes they implicity cast to

Downgoat

@Mego tell that to Jelly

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

6:43 PM

^

:P

^^^^^ that's a great idea

zyabin101

@Downgoat typo in Cheddar README, currently not currenty.

Downgoat

what should the syntax for overloading be?

@zyabin101 screw gramar

Anonymous

@Downgoat Jelly's design goal was to kick ass at golfing, not to be a good general-purpose language :P

zyabin101

@Downgoat nop

Downgoat

@Mego it kicks goat, ~~dragon,~~ penguin, bird, everything....

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

6:44 PM

@Downgoat :D I will be definitely using cheddar

@Downgoat oi. I've beaten Jelly before.

Downgoat

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ :D \o/ \o/ \o/

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ fixed

Anonymous

I would have beaten Jelly once if it wasn't for FGITW

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

It can't kick glider bc the glider is the FGITW

@Mego ouch

Anonymous

I didn't see the challenge until 4 hours after Dennis posted a Jelly answer because time zones and meals and such. Seriously and Jelly both had the same byte count.

Nathan Merrill

@Downgoat how did you decide operator overloading should work? Is it determined by the type of the first variable

Downgoat

6:45 PM

@NathanMerrill yeah

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@Downgoat Is Cheddar a functional language?

Nathan Merrill

__add__

no its not

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

aw

Anonymous

Dis one:

Anonymous

3

A: Minimum Scalar Product

Seriously, 6 bytes ,SR,S* Try it online! Explanation: ,SR,S* ,SR input first vector, sort, reverse ,S input second vector, sort * dot product

Anonymous

6:46 PM

Compare:

Anonymous

6

A: Minimum Scalar Product

Jelly, 6 bytes ṢṚ×Ṣ}S Try it online! Using brute force is equally short: Œ!×S€Ṃ How it works ṢṚ×Ṣ}S Main link. Arguments: u (vector), v (vector) Ṣ Sort the components of u. Ṛ Reverse. Ṣ} Sort the components of v. × Multiply the results, element by element. S ...

Nathan Merrill

and MATL

Downgoat

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ it's like 50% functional

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@Downgoat please at least add reflexive functions

Anonymous

The MATL answer came after mine

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

6:47 PM

Like, 3 /~ 5 = 5 / 3

Downgoat

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ why?

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@QPaysTaxes So that operator overloading could be determined by the second variable

And it's fun :P

Nathan Merrill

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ you can do that with extension methods

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@NathanMerrill I don't know what those are. I know what reflexive is.

Anonymous

3 /~ 5 == 5 / 3 == 1/3 / 1/5

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

6:49 PM

@QPaysTaxes I love obsfucation. It's another hobby

Nathan Merrill

you can add methods to classes at runtime

Anonymous

Basically what JS tries to do with prototypes

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@QPaysTaxes You've obviously hadn't had enough experience with J.

Nathan Merrill

B.__add__ := (a) => value+a

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@QPaysTaxes oi functional programming is fun

Downgoat

6:50 PM

by the way, does anyone want to help edge-cast test Cheddar?

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

YES

but at home

ok

you mean edge-case?

yes

I'll help you edge-case your language design

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

6:50 PM

@QPaysTaxes Division is %. Modulus is |

Nathan Merrill

but actual code? gross

/ is insert.

^^

+/1 2 3 = 1+2+3

^^

6:51 PM

@QPaysTaxes alright wtf you don't like js you don't like J... you must be a C/Java programmer.

@_@

Rainbolt

I'm a C#/JavaScript/Html/SQL programmer. Doesn't mean I like all of those languages.

Downgoat

@QPaysTaxes JS is very smart language

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Called it

Nathan Merrill

@Rainbolt C# and SQL?

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

False.

Nathan Merrill

6:53 PM

actually, I like Html5 too

Downgoat

obvious solution is to use unicode division ÷

Rainbolt

@NathanMerrill Yes. Is that unusual?

Nathan Merrill

making everything semantically correct is so fun

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

The % looks like an obelus

Nathan Merrill

@Rainbolt I was asking if those were the ones you like.

PhiNotPi

6:53 PM

Right now I'm looking for feature suggestions for Phigs.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@PhiNotPi It should beat Jelly

Nathan Merrill

@PhiNotPi static or dynamic or golfy?

Downgoat

@PhiNotPi when the source code is goat emoji, output an ascii art goat

trust me, add this, it is a good idea, I will make a challenge regarding it soon...

PhiNotPi

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ noted

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

\o/

Rainbolt

6:54 PM

@NathanMerrill Oh. I love SQL (minus the part about how everyone has their own convention for naming and capitalization). Love C#. Hate HTML. Hate JavaScript. I should point out that I have done nothing to alleviate my own hatred - there are a billion JavaScript frameworks out there that I could be using that I have not even tried.

Downgoat

huh, I found an ASCII downgoat:

        ___
        \_/_         ___..._____....__\|/_
       / /_/__..---""___   ___ .    .  .  """---...___
__..--/ ( (       .  \_/   \_/            \|/    .   .
     /  | |   \|/     \ \  \ \     \|/
\|/ |  <  <  .     .   \ \  \ \   .        .        .
    \   \_ \            \ \ |  \
 .   \    `-.___    _.../__/   |   .   .      \|/  .
     /          `~~~      /   /
    |                   (    /
    |                  /     \   .     .   \|/
   /                          \
 .'                            \  .-"""-.

Nathan Merrill

@Rainbolt you hate HTML? why?

Anonymous

@Rainbolt A framework can only do so much when the core is broken

Nathan Merrill

@Downgoat that's an ascii deadgoat

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

This is why you shouldn't code late at night:

  function _Operator(monad, dyad){
  	this.monad = monad;
    this.dyad = dyad;
  }

  // TODO:help me God
  function Operator(verbToken){
  	push = typeof push === "undefined" ? true : push;

PhiNotPi

6:55 PM

@NathanMerrill golfy

Nathan Merrill

ew gross

Downgoat

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ why are you using typeof ಠ_ಠ

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

I found that in my source code and I'm like wtf

flawr

@Downgoat Looks like a down sheep.

PhiNotPi

@NathanMerrill ;-;

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

6:56 PM

@Downgoat typeof is the proper way. What else would you use?

Downgoat

write in ES6 pls

Zgarb

@PhiNotPi You should have a ModifyWith function. Take array A, functions F and G. Zip together F(indices of A) and G(A), and for each pair (i,a), do A[i]=a.

Agawa001

@Downgoat there is 4 :/

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@Downgoat I'm coding at school and want to be able to test it there as well.

Agawa001

the others are retired

Maltysen

6:56 PM

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ does | work?

Downgoat

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ you can use C9

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@Maltysen Nope. Neither does ||.

Maltysen

why not?

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@Downgoat Doesn't that cost money?

Maltysen

can push ever be falsey?

Downgoat

6:57 PM

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ no

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@Maltysen Because push is true or false.

Maltysen

oh

Rainbolt

@NathanMerrill It's tedious to write, and I never had any formal learning with HTML, so I picked up some bad practices. Having to write every tag twice (<label></label>) annoys me even more than surrounding a code block with braces in C#.

Nathan Merrill

lol

fair point

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@Downgoat Oh well. I already have it set up.

Downgoat

6:58 PM

@Rainbolt you need a good ide then which automcompletes

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Even jsfiddle does that >_>

Maltysen

for frontend stuff I recommend adobe brackets

Rainbolt

Mine does auto complete. Every time. So if I want to surround a block of existing code with braces, I have to start the brace {, then delete the brace that it creates }, then add a new one after the block.

It fixes the indentation for me, but it's still mildly annoying

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

^^ I think it's that way for 'em all

Downgoat

@Rainbolt a good ide will let you highlight the codeblock and you press { and it adds the braces

Nathan Merrill

6:59 PM

@Rainbolt I learned to love HTML with XSLT. Basically, if you code isn't inline with HTML (like html templates, or xslt), then its annoying

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