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user568458
user568458
7:00 PM
What's the big problem with emperical evidence? Is it forbidden in answers?
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
I don't know if any of us have expertise on research
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@user568458 It's encouraged. But you're asking for expertise on research. Have you considered going to your local library? Or maybe your university?
 
user41796
Agreed. I have lots of first hand experience in Brooks' law. But I don't have research papers to back it.
 
user568458
user568458
I've already addressed that concern. You don't need to be a professor. Same with the 10s of existing research questions you have no problem with.
 
Andres F.
Andres F.
hey @user568458, I'll second the Skeptics suggestion, with the caveat I'm not sure how that community works. Maybe their rules are even more convoluted than here :) As for P.SE, I have the unpopular opinion that most questions you can think of aren't suitable for this site. Which says a lot about the site :/
 
user41796
7:02 PM
@AndresF. We're admittedly strict. There's a reason for it. Skeptics is even more strict than we are. But I agree that this could work as a question there.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@AndresF. I suspect we would have a much clearer definition of our scope had it not been for the whole NPR era where our sole purpose was to be the dumping ground for terrible questions
 
Andres F.
Andres F.
sure, agreed to both of you. I'm not implying bad faith or anything. But sometimes I look at our lack of clarity of purpose and convoluted rules, and I despair...
 
user41796
@AndresF. It can certainly be frustrating. The overlap with SO and CS don't help either.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@GlenH7 Honestly, the real overlap is with SO. CS is different enough - more sciency, theoretical.
Their answers have funny symbols and stuff in them.
 
user568458
user568458
TBH looking at the crap that does get through, I'm 99% certain this whole discussion is a case of "It's on the new users questions list, let's close it. Oh, the asker contests that, quick, lets throw every reason we can at it and hope one sticks". There is NO WAY even 10% of questions here are subjected to this level of nit-picking
 
user41796
7:05 PM
True, but I felt like piling on to the pain.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@user568458 Please do vote then. Or flag. Because what you're seeing on the homepage is a fraction of the bad things. Many get down voted off the homepage pretty quickly.
 
Andres F.
Andres F.
for the record, I'm genuinely interested in the answer to @user568458, whether on-topic or not. I happen to think Brook's law is true, but often we repeat falsehoods in our industry :)
 
user41796
@user568458 Close rate is around 50% IIRC. And yes, nearly every question rolling through the site gets looked at.
 
user41796
@AndresF. My recollection is that the 1995 edition provides several pieces of backing evidence. @user568458 hasn't said what edition of the book he read.
 
user568458
user568458
The worst thing is, from what you've said, it sounds like if my question was a crap, subjective "Do you guys like Brook's Law? No evidence needed, just opinion from your experience" you'd have no problem with it (beyond it possibly being a duplicate to terrible existing questions)
 
user55340
7:08 PM
The best I can do is give notes and references on Wikipedia.
 
enderland
enderland
Well, you are wrong there, it'd be downvoted to about -6 right now if it wasn't deleted already
 
user41796
@user568458 Nope, that would be closed as primarily opinion based or "unclear what you're asking" as there's no problem to solve
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@user568458 Nope. I would have closed that as primarily opinion based in a heartbeat.
 
user55340
Brooks’ law
Brooks' law is a claim about software project management according to which "adding manpower to a late software project makes it later". It was coined by Fred Brooks in his 1975 book The Mythical Man-Month. According to Brooks, there is an incremental person who, when added to a project, makes it take more, not less time. Brooks adds that "nine women can't make a baby in one month". == Explanations == According to Brooks himself, the law is an "outrageous oversimplification", but it captures the general rule. Brooks points to two main factors that explain why it works this way: It takes some time...
 
user41796
Half tempted to post a screenshot of the 2+2 question from yesterday.... -15 on 22 views.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
7:08 PM
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@AndresF. I think it's probably true in most cases but there will be exceptions; it is possible to simply understaff a software team, and on occasion it's possible to break off part of a project in such a way that adding people to the broken off part is productive (e.g. a mobile app maybe)
 
user568458
user568458
If you don't know the answer, don't answer the question. I've seen this before on SE, experienced users thinking "I couldn't answer that therefore no-one could"
 
user41796
@user568458 That's not how this group works.
 
enderland
enderland
@user568458 if you want this community to support you or try to help you, comments like this (and what you said before) are really, really not helping you
 
user41796
We like the questions we can't answer because we learn more that way.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
7:09 PM
@user568458 half the time I upvote a question as soon as I think that
(the other half of the time it's unanswerable because it's an opinion poll or too broad or whatever)
 
enderland
enderland
people here have been earnestly trying to help you for what, an hour now? and reacting like that will not help your case (whether your case is valid or not doesn't matter, from that perspective)
 
Andres F.
Andres F.
@Ixrec Agreed. It's understood it's an oversimplification, but it describes a very real (in my opinion) problem with badly-managed engineering teams.
 
user568458
user568458
Then why do you find it impossible to believe that a project manager might have studied project managment and might have relevant professional expertise in the latest thinking in project management research?
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
/me scrolls. What?
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@AndresF. I would suspect it's just as true of non-engineering teams, though of course I have no evidence for that
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
7:11 PM
there's a project management SE isn't there?
what was the original question?
 
user55340
(Hmm. C2 doesn't even have a good summary page)
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@Telastyn do they take reference requests?
@Telastyn he was asking for a summary of research on whether Brook's Law is true
 
user55340
Pm.stackexchange
 
user41796
@Telastyn here
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
we've been going back and forth on whether that constitutes a "reference request" for a very long time
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
7:12 PM
I don't know? I don't go there. I, in general, dislike project management process.
 
user55340
 
user568458
user568458
0
Q: Is empirical evidence off topic here?

user568458I asked a question about whether an oft-quoted piece of programmer wisdom has empirical evidence to back it up. My question was closed within seconds using the close reason normally used for lazy questions asking for laundry lists of libraries and other resources. From the comments, it's not ...

discussion support
 
user55340
 
user568458
user568458
Would it help if I showed you examples of evidence-based answers that aren't simply reference lists?
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
ah. That does strike me as a reference request or a "tell me your anecdotes" sort of too broad. Still, it seems like it's a useful question albeit off-topic by letter of the law.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
7:14 PM
@user568458 All answers on Stack Exchange are supposed to be based in experience and/or reference.
Period.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@Telastyn it was suggested he attempt to ask it on Skeptics, which imo might be a good idea
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
maybe?
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
You can not do anything to preclude sharing a combination of experience and reference. Asking for other people's research immediately precludes experience in software development.
 
user568458
user568458
Ha, one of the criticisms I got was that it wasn't "tell me your anecdotes" enough, that there wasn't enough room for experience.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@user568458 Hm?
 
user568458
user568458
7:16 PM
I'm starting to think that you honestly don't know what this sort of answer even looks like. I'll try to find one.
 
user55340
87
Q: Are there more open jobs than available developers?

psrA recent Stack Overflow blog post claims that: With nearly five open jobs for every available software developer, the need for qualified technical talent is higher than ever. I have seen this claim repeated many times, with different numbers cited, but I've not been able to get down to any ...

united-states economics software
 
user568458
user568458
gnat has a great evidence-based answer here. You can see clearly how his (?) expertise helped inform the elements of the study he picks out. Doesn't look like anyone's in a rush to delete it. programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/179616/…
 
enderland
enderland
@user568458 I expect that will end up closed in.. a short while
 
user568458
user568458
That's not the best example, it's even more reference-y than I was hoping for, but it shows how such things can be excellent content
Why? Do you honestly see that excellent top answer and think "That's harming the site, it shouldn't have been allowed"?
 
user55340
You are also missing seeing the deleted answer and that more answers would be equally right.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
7:21 PM
@user568458 Yep. I'm going to historical lock that question. It ended up with great content, but the question is a poor fit and shouldn't be used as justification for similar questions. There's no problem to be solved - it's polling for opinions.
 
user55340
This site structure isn't a good one for collaborative writing of summaries of topics.
 
user41796
@ThomasOwens Is it worth cleaning up the comments first?
 
user55340
@ThomasOwens please close it first - it helps reduce future confusion.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@GlenH7 I'm looking at cleanup now. I just scanned the answers.
I'm on to comments now.
 
user568458
user568458
Christ, if you think some guy's opinion is "equally right" compared to an excellent answer quoting real, relevant research, TBH I'd rather ask on Yahoo Answers
 
enderland
enderland
7:23 PM
14 mins ago, by enderland
@user568458 if you want this community to support you or try to help you, comments like this (and what you said before) are really, really not helping you
 
user41796
@user568458 Please lay off the rhetoric. Several community members have been patient in attempting to help answer your questions and explain why things are the way they are on this site. You're not helping you case in the slightest by the aggressive commentary.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
 
user568458
user568458
But there's a real point to be made there. Some guy's opinion is NOT "equally right" compared to an excellent answer quoting real, relevant research.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@user568458 It's about the content that the question attracts.
 
user55340
Gnat is an excellent writer - he can produce high quality content. But the presence of high quality content doesn't always justify leaving the question open.
 
user568458
user568458
7:25 PM
That's why it was voted up and opinionated answers were not
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
That's a valid statement. However, it doesn't change the fact that the question is one that does not belong on the main site. Good answers do not save a bad question.
 
user41796
@user568458 You're using a posteriori logic in order to justify what is or isn't on-topic for the site. It doesn't work that way.
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
enh. I heard something similar in another forum just today about our overzealous public shaming of people asking decent but offtopic questions.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@Telastyn Who is shaming anyone?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@user568458 what if 4 people quote separate high quality research with the same conclusion? Then who's right?
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
7:27 PM
@Telastyn out of curiosity, what part was considered "public shaming"? normally such questions just get closed and that's that
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
let me find the link referenced
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
Haskell Scotch, it's always right.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@JimmyHoffa did you mean to say different conclusion?
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@Ixrec Both are valid.
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
76
Q: Why do programming languages, especially C, use curly braces and not square ones?

SomeKittensThe definition of "C-Style language" can practically be simplified down to "uses curly braces ({})." Why do we use that particular character (and why not something more reasonable, like [], which doesn't require the shift key at least on US keyboards)? Is there any actual benefit to programmer ...

programming-languages c history syntax
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
7:28 PM
If four people point to four different books or papers that say the same thing, how do you objectively decide which one is right? If four people point to four different books or papers that say different things, how do you objectively decide which one is right?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@ThomasOwens popularity, duh.
 
user41796
And the argument of "let the votes decide" doesn't hold water as that's a popularity contest.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
In one case, you could up vote all the answers. Could you honestly accept one, though? In the second, how can you vote at all, without knowing what was useful?
 
psr
psr
@JimmyHoffa Basically. It has a lot of options to deal with edge cases (like working with libraries that expect a global variable), but usually you browserify a single module and it gets the transitive closure of the dependencies as well.
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
I don't see anything particularly onerous in the question itself - SomeKittens just happens to be in another chat I frequent and brought it up today during a wider discussion about how to make a SO that is polite.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
7:33 PM
@ThomasOwens the real issue is that in fuzzy things like project management, being able to cite 4 sources saying 4 different things is the norm; in the "harder" sciences all mainstream sources agree on the bulk of the important things
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Telastyn how? I was asking how we could do this without turning into Yahoo answers a little while ago...got no ideas
 
enderland
enderland
@Ixrec you mean people are complicated?
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@enderland yup
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Ixrec and in pseudo science all the sources agree on different things for three easy payments of $29.99
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
Polite SO, or how to make useful questions like this workable?
 
user41796
7:34 PM
@enderland Simple is as simple does.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
same reason great Workplace answers are never(?) a list of references; those aren't the kinds of problems where scientific studies are useful
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@enderland I'm not mean people :(
 
user55340
@Telastyn very high barrier to entry, and don't let Linus join.
 
enderland
enderland
@JimmyHoffa are you median people? or mode?
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@Ixrec That's true. Which is why context is important. I can run a 3 person, 3 month project done by friends in their spare time differently than a 10 year multi-billion dollar aerospace program that involves multiple engineering disciplines and a rigorous quality assurance program.
 
user41796
7:34 PM
@Telastyn The curly braces question or the Brooks law question?
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
the brooks law - curly braces is actually still open somehow.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@ThomasOwens Indeed. Some of the best answers on this site are of the form "It's either X or Y, depending on how much Q is involved" because that's useful to everyone in even a vaguely similar situation
 
user55340
@Telastyn look at its revision history.
 
user41796
history is likely keeping the curly braces open
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 I thought it was cookies
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
7:36 PM
@MichaelT What the hell did I do there?
 
user55340
It's open because of mod fiat.
2
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
true, for historical questions conflicting references are a lot less likely; usually there's either none or they all agree
 
user41796
I think Brooks' Law is better asked on Skeptics. The Progs community tends to be too pragmatic to worry too much about making sure there's backing research when firsthand experience backs the principle
 
user568458
user568458
@JimmyHoffa @JimmyHoffa Then, as always, the green tick goes to the question with the most robust and/or most recent research. Same as if a question has, for example, four different algorithms that all work - tick goes to the most efficient. - An unknown error has occurred
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT Yannis is greek, not italian
 
user568458
user568458
7:37 PM
@ThomasOwens This is a problem that the science sites face on every single question, with no problem. The great thing about empricial evidence - as opposed to opinion or anecdote - is that you can see from its methodology how robust it is.
 
user55340
@ThomasOwens Scotch?
 
user41796
@ThomasOwens Was that one where community was jacking with it? But wouldn't that show in the revision history?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@user568458 shit an unknown error has occurred? What do you think it means scotch?
 
user41796
Or was it one where the lock interface was giving you fits?
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@GlenH7 Probably.
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
7:38 PM
enh. Methodology is great of hard sciences. Project Management is more like sociology. Sure, this result happened with these people and this methodology, but applying that sort of stuff to other people in a different situation is dicey at best.
 
user41796
I have dim memories of you complaining about the system being impossible to work with for some post.
 
psr
psr
@ThomasOwens I think the actual problem is "How can I speed up completion of a software project? I have money to hire developers if that is a solution."
 
user568458
user568458
@JimmyHoffa I don't undestand your comment. I posted two comments responding to Thomas and Jimmy Hoffa but my connection timed out, I don't know if they came through
 
user55340
@Telastyn the polite thing - it has to be a core value, but it also means making an effort to reduce conflict. This would make it an incredibly boring place.
 
user568458
user568458
@ThomasOwens This is a problem that the science sites face on every single question, with no problem. The great thing about empricial evidence - as opposed to opinion or anecdote - is that you can see from its methodology how robust it is.
@JimmyHoffa Then, as always, the green tick goes to the question with the most robust and/or most recent research. Same as if a question has, for example, four different algorithms that all work - tick goes to the most efficient.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
7:41 PM
@Telastyn I've always likened process engineering to a blend of software engineering, philosophy, psychology, sociology, business, and communication, with a splash of statistics.
 
enderland
enderland
@JimmyHoffa does everything mean scotch to you friday afternoon? ;)
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@user568458 When you give an accept to the most recent research, are you planning on curating that answer forever, if someone posts newer research that is different? Even if it's not as robust of an answer?
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@MichaelT I think we can be more polite than we typically are, on some of the worse questions we can be straight-up rude in comments, and in particular sometimes when we try to explain our close reasons we do so in such an esoteric ivory tower way that there's no hope of anyone outside our little cabal being persuaded by it
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
I would generally think that it would be boring - the contrary argument made was that the... impolite nature made the site offputting for beginners and others who don't like conflict (women in general).
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
I make an effort to be the antithesis of that, though it sometimes feels a little weird writing a highly sympathetic comment while "secretly" downvoting immediately after
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
7:44 PM
though their focus was on SO
not other SE sites.
 
enderland
enderland
SO is pretty hostile to new users, or rather, people who don't "get" the Q/A model
 
user55340
SO is too big. The core group doesn't have enough power. The only thing left to try to raise the barrier to entry is social things.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@enderland it's also my scotch day
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
SO doesn't need to be more newcomer-friendly, the brand is so strong and the content so useful people will continue going there until the heat death of the internet
 
enderland
enderland
@Ixrec people will continue asking there but perhaps not answering
 
user568458
user568458
7:47 PM
@ThomasOwens Okay, maybe you've not done research. If a paper on X comes out in 2007, then another paper on X comes out in 2011, it's expected that the 2011 paper will reference the 2007 paper, and explain how its results fit in with the previous results. Therefore, if the 2011 paper is good quality, it should be a better place to start than the 2007 paper. But of course it might be a poorly conducted study, there might be methodological problems an expert could spot or some other major error....
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@enderland some of them answer less but I'm sure there will always be answers
 
user568458
user568458
...so it's always quality and recency
This is why proper, peer-reviewed research is different to opinion, books, blogs...
 
user55340
@user568458 when it comes to internal business, you aren't going to get studies. You get anecdotes from consultants who aren't under nda.
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
supposedly.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
That's another reason why you likely won't find what you want here. We're professional software developers. I read books. I read IEEE Software and the ACM magazines. But I don't read the hardcore research and whitepapers, because it's not likely to help me do my job. Anecdotes are pretty powerful to me, though. I have enough experience to take someone writing about their situation, pick out the things that apply to me, and reason if they will help me.
2
 
user568458
user568458
7:49 PM
Like I say, these are not novel problems. The science sites have no problem with this
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
unfortunately, the politeness is really something folks just don't have time for. If they need to be friendly every time they want to participate in cleanup/maintenance activities, it would just take too long. People don't tend to be outright rude, though I'm sure it happens. More than anything, we keep things clean and it yields a good quality resource (the site) to a great many because of it; where if we didn't maintain the cleanliness it would be as helpful as yahoo answers
 
user55340
Science is about process and repeating results.
 
user568458
user568458
I'm starting to suspect the real answer to my meta question is really "Sorry, we don't do research here"
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@user568458 But we aren't a science site. We're a bunch of people in the trenches.
 
user55340
Project management is about the pipe dreams of the business and an mba.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
7:50 PM
@user568458 oh sure we don't generally - we're about the art and practice of software development. Research is something you'll find more of in CS; we're about application.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@JimmyHoffa I agree that maintaining quality is more important than being polite (a fundamental if rarely spoken axiom of the SE network). But I hope that if/when we finish cleaning up the NPR junk we can then turn our attention to making the modern site more approachable, or at least more consistent to those who do want to understand our scope.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@JimmyHoffa I wonder if software engineering research is on-topic on computer science...I honestly don't know.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
we have a well-deserved reputation as one of the hardest SEs to ask a good question on and (unlike Skeptics) I don't think it has to be that way
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
and the tight asses in CS.SE don't care about projects or adding people to projects.
 
user55340
Sun is a big old company that isn't around to protect itself any more. Try to find any research about how it built software. Anything.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
7:52 PM
@ThomasOwens strictly speaking, computer science is a branch of mathematics, so I would assume not
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Ixrec NPR has been largely cleaned up for ages- it's about maintenance. We still get a pile of crap questions every september and for months following, we still get a pile of crap questions on days that end in y and months with an r in them.
 
user41796
@user568458 I don't do project management research, no. I research things that make my clients more efficient and make the world better off.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@ThomasOwens neither do i
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@Ixrec You're right. I just checked.
@JimmyHoffa It's not.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@JimmyHoffa are all those 2-4 year old questions we keep closing not from the NPR era?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
7:52 PM
ah
 
user55340
It doesn't exist. Why? Anyone who could say more than an isolated anecdote is under nda.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
half our close votes still go to the oldies last I checked
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
PM.SE may be a better place for process research
(PM.SE is a thing, right?)
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@JimmyHoffa Yeah. I'm not sure, though.
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa yes it is.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
7:53 PM
They are an in-the-trenches site, too, but for project and program managers.
 
user55340
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
But maybe they would be more forgiving.
 
user55340
The beta sites tend to be.
 
user41796
@ThomasOwens It would depend upon the question to see if it was on-topic for Engineering
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
Honestly, I'd like to attract a community of academics to Programmers.
But other people don't see it that way.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
7:55 PM
that's enough hard questions in a row for me, I will now go watch Star Trek
 
user55340
@ThomasOwens we have quite a few. Amon, jeffz, Basiel. With spelling apologies.
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
we could use some more rigor, but LtE and CS.SE are... less than helpful for me - I can only imagine how less helpful they are to the sort of people I work with.
 
user41796
@ThomasOwens oil and water. Really only works in salad dressing, and only after a lot of vigorous shaking
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@Telastyn LtE?
 
user55340
Jozefg- not Jeff.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
7:56 PM
@ThomasOwens so would the industry of programmers. Interestingly, software academics would like to attract the industry of programmers to academics. I'm not really sure what all that means, though it's true and kind of weird. Grass is always greener?
 
user55340
And Basile.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
And we have legit academics here? Like people who research software development?
Why are they not in here right this seconds?
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
 
user568458
user568458
Right. If that is your policy - no evidence please, we prefer anecdote - I don't like it, but I'll accept it. It's very different to other sites - for example, I often crack out vision science and psychology of perception papers when answering questions on Graphic Design; I'm an in-the-trenches designer branching out into web dev but I still keep an eye on the science, and I'm not the only one....
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@ThomasOwens because they're academics? Also, is Lippert not count as a legit academic?
 
user568458
user568458
7:57 PM
... But you're absolutely entitled to do things your way.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@user568458 We have n policy against evidence.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
I know he worked in industry, but have you read his blog? Honestly.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
I don't know where you're getting that idea.
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
I think you're mistaken. We like evidence, but your answer cannot just be evidence - after all, the asker can find that themselves.
 
user55340
@amon are you a legit academic?
 
user41796
7:58 PM
@ThomasOwens Back to being obstinate
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
We don't do requests exclusively for evidence. If you aren't willing to accept our anecdotes along with references to things of various rigor (ranging from a blog post by a third party to a formal peer reviewed research paper), then the question isn't a good fit. You can't say "don't share anecdotes - peer reviewed research only" or any other limiting factors on answers.
 
user568458
user568458
That's why I asked for the kind of "This is the current thinking" with references that is 100% routine on other sites. But now we're going round in circles again.
 
amon
amon
@MichaelT nope, I'm a undergrad CS student in their second year who previously studied a bit of physics. I have a strong academic influence and interest, but no accomplishments or aspirations in that direction.
 
user568458
user568458
I didn't say "don't share anecdotes", I editted the question to EXPLICITLY allow "anecdotes along with references"
 
user41796
> But now we're going round in circles again.
 
user55340
8:01 PM
I am certain that Basile has a phd- though if he's still in academia or found greener pa$ture$ in industry.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@user568458 You do realize that sharing a personal experience is immediately sufficient for supporting evidence, without an outside reference, correct?
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa - that's about 2 - 3 hours away for me.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@ThomasOwens the one guy who invented "differential execution" is a frequenter here and he spent years as a professor
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
Wow.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
this is beginning to remind me of the modern metaphysical debates regarding the nature of time; it started when someone published an argument that time doesn't exist, and every philosopher on the planet disagreed with that argument...in several different mutually contradictory ways. And they're still trying to work out which of those counterarguments is the correct one.
 
user55340
8:04 PM
I've worked at 8 places over my years. I can't give more than an anecdote about any of them. None have white papers on "how we develop software" because that is a competitive advantage or embarrassment.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
we have a bunch of internal white papers, but they'd be fairly useless to anyone else
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
31 mins ago, by Jimmy Hoffa
@Ixrec and in pseudo science all the sources agree on different things for three easy payments of $29.99
 
enderland
enderland
@JimmyHoffa hey the last answer he posted here was a question I had a higher and accepted answer to, clearly I'm omgawesome
 
user55340
You want to find out how another company does it? Hire away a manager and developer.
 
enderland
enderland
@MichaelT maybe this explains silly valley
 
user568458
user568458
8:06 PM
@Thomas: I'm trying to summarise this discussion on that meta thread, so no other evidence-loving SE users have to go through what I've been through. Would a fair bottom-line summary of the policy on evidence-based questions be, that if it can't be answered by sharing a personal experience, it's not on topic?
 
user55340
You like the way a smaller company goes something? Buy the company.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@user568458 No.
 
user41796
It's very difficult to capitalize pure research. Even IBM, who was very good at that, has backed off and redirected their researchers towards more applied subjects.
 
user568458
user568458
Okay, what then?
 
enderland
enderland
@user568458 you need to stop defining whether a question is good or on topic purely by the answer! a question is on/off topic based on the question characteristics first and foremost
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
8:07 PM
@GlenH7 ...because it's entirely run by MBAs and making loot off shitty offshore consulting services...
 
user568458
user568458
I'm looking to summarise the rule for other SE users who are used to evidence-based questions
 
user41796
@user568458 My answer is sufficient to your meta question, which is also why I cast the VTC that I did.
 
user568458
user568458
@enderland I couldn't agree more, I was really surprised when earlier someone said questions were off topic by the answers they atrtract, that sounded upside down to me
You have a very different policy to other sites, I'm trying to summarise it.
 
enderland
enderland
@user568458 vague or poll-like questions cannot be answered well in a Q/A format, and a huge result is low quality answers
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@user568458 Questions are off-topic based on the question. However, if it is written in a way that will attract many questions that cannot be judged to be correct, then the question can be closed because the question needs to be refocused.
 
enderland
enderland
8:09 PM
@user568458 really? I feel like you are just trying to be obnoxious about it (and if this is not your intent, I'm sorry, but at this point I feel like you are not trying to understand but just argue)
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@JimmyHoffa Normally I would complain about that being somewhat rude but at this point I'm feeling much the same as enderland.
 
user568458
user568458
I am genuinely trying to understand. I want there to be a clear, simple explanation, because right now it looks like the opposite of what I understand SE to stand for, I've waseted over an hour trying to understand it, and I want to be sure others won't have the same problem
 
user55340
@user568458 each SE site is its own. We have a history of problematic and low quality answers to "tell me your story" questions.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
Two close reasons mention answers:
 
enderland
enderland
@user568458 1) check if the question meets the on topic list and then 2) check the off topic/avoid asking list
 
user568458
user568458
8:11 PM
@MichaelT that's why I'm so confused. My question is the opposite of "tell me your story". But it's being closed because there's not enough room for people to tell their stories? That's what I don't understnad
 
enderland
enderland
your question fails the first and second
Multiple people have pointed you to those links and you have either read them silently or ignored them
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
If the question is written to attract answers based on opinions instead of a combination of facts, references, or expertise, then it is "primarily opinion based". If the question is written in a way that makes it attract too many answers or answers that are too long for Stack Exchange to hold, then the question is "too broad".
 
user568458
user568458
I've read them multiple times
 
enderland
enderland
Every SE site has on/off topic questions, and every site is different
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
Every other close reason - off-topic, duplicate, and unclear - are based exclusively on the question.
 
user55340
8:12 PM
@user568458 because no matter how much you ask for "back it up" it will still get "just a two line story" which will be an answer.
 
user568458
user568458
Sorry, what's "just a two pine story"?
IOh, editted
 
user55340
I am on mobile. The p and l are near each other pine is a valid word.
 
user568458
user568458
Look, all I want is clarification on what exactly the rule is P.SE has that means this question, which would be on topic on other sites, is not on topic here.
That's it.
Thomas came very close with this line:
"You do realize that sharing a personal experience is immediately sufficient for supporting evidence, without an outside reference, correct?"
 
enderland
enderland
sigh
 
user568458
user568458
That makes sense. My question says personal experience isn't enough, if the rule is, personal experience must be enough, that's fine, that makes sense
 
enderland
enderland
8:15 PM
if it's on topic so many other sites, why do you insist on asking it here? Just post it on those sites and get your answer
 
user568458
user568458
The TYPE of question
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
Do you agree that your question is looking for research? If an answer doesn't cite a book or research paper, then it wouldn't be acceptable to you?
 
enderland
enderland
@JimmyHoffa I love the history of that message, it's like a pyramid of scotch
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
did scotch become a meme when I wasn't here?
 
user568458
user568458
My question is looking for an expert's eye view on the state of the research, yes. I'd accept an answer like "I've read the research in this area and not found anything of sufficient quality" but otherwise I'd be amazed if a good answer didn't reference real research
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
8:17 PM
The rule is: if the question is asking for something that they can find themselves by doing research, it is off topic here. We are not your research assistants.
2
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 HOLY SHIT I JUST FOUND OUT SOMETHING TERRIBLE! No, this is real! I didn't know this, I went to google how much peat was in a bottle of scotch, and this is true: Soon the answer will be none. GAH THIS IS AWFUL blog.thewhiskyexchange.com/2015/04/…
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@user568458 That's why it's off-topic here. As an asker, you cannot force people to cite a specific type of reference to formulate their answer. Otherwise, it's not that much different than a reference request. Sure, you're looking for added explanation, but that's not sufficient.
 
user55340
Answers need to draw from our expert knowledge of software design and architecture.
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa I think I'm going to cry now
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 agh I've been tricked, it says happy april fools at the bottom. That was not a funny joke.
 
enderland
enderland
8:20 PM
@JimmyHoffa time to drink away your sorrows?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Telastyn I don't even know what's involved in the job, I definitely am not qualified to be someone's research assistant
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
researching scotch maybe
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
We're experts in requirements engineering, software architecture and design, data structures and algorithms, quality assurance, configuration management, and methods and processes. We need to be able to share that expertise (and links/citations to relevant material), but we can't be constrained.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Telastyn ooo, this sounds delightful, do you have an opening?
 
user568458
user568458
But now we're back to the issue that there's a difference between what I could learn from cold hitting Google Scholar, not even knowing what methodologies exist, what research disciplines do this type of research, and what an expert knows from their rounded experience
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
8:22 PM
not for scotch research sadly.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@user568458 We only deal in that very last thing. You need to ask us a question that you'd ask a coworker in a conference room or at a whiteboard.
 
user55340
@Telastyn gin?
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa The part that caught my eye in there was the "we arranged for ..." and I was wondering how a blog would be able to finance research like that.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@user568458 oh goodness we don't bother with that sort of thing. You want methodologies and google scholar? Hit up CS
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
if you want google scholar sort of stuff, a bunch of hackers aren't going to get that for you.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
8:23 PM
@Telastyn yeah, those guys are only good for getting you pre-release stock information apparently
 
user55340
Maybe poke academia.se chat room if you want peer reviewed pointers.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
Picture Programmers like a small conference room with a whiteboard. No computer, no books, no papers. You write your question on the whiteboard and experts walk by. Someone sees one that they can answer, they stop in and help.
3
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
I meant the linux sort of hackers, not the financial data sort of hackers, but considering the other window is Shadowrun: Hong Kong
 
user55340
The trade magazines we read are certainly not peer reviewed.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
Anyway, I'm out now. It's weekend time.
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
8:24 PM
...
 
enderland
enderland
this all makes me want to sink ships
 
user55340
@enderland b7
 
user568458
user568458
Funnily enough Jimmy despite the endless scotch that's the closest yet to an answer to my question. If it's something you just "don't do", that's fine. I just want to know that that is what the rule is.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@ThomasOwens sometimes we just stop in to doodle bottles of booze next to your problems
@user568458 endless scotch...is that a thing? That sounds wonderful! Where do I sign up??
 
Duga
Duga
8:42 PM
Sounds like this should be asked on Programmers. — davidism 30 secs ago
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
^-- actually looks like it might fit; fancy that
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@Duga not sure about that one, it seems on-topic but too broad/poll-y
I dunno squat about django so I probably can't help get it into shape
 
enderland
enderland
If the code works, it's better for Code Review
It's basically asking "improve this" as I read it
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
hm, I don't think so, that's just showing the design of his models, it's not complete code that actually does anything
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa I've got an edit in to move the design picture inline. And I left a comment that it might work with a bit more focus
 
user41796
8:47 PM
@enderland it's more of a design review, but it needs to focus on a specific aspect of design
 
enderland
enderland
@GlenH7 yeah I don't see a question, now that I reread it I see "here's what I was thinking, thoughts?"
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@enderland he points out what he believes to be a design problem and is asking for solutions to it..
I think that fits, unless I misread
 
enderland
enderland
> I'm not sure if this is the best way to go about it. I feel like with this model layout, it might get really tricky once I start building out the forms. Any input would be helpful.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@JimmyHoffa what's the problem he pointed out?
(I didn't see one, hence my earlier comments)
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
I feel like with this model layout, it might get really tricky once I start building out the forms.
he lacks detail
but it's there, if he just gives the details of what he thinks will be tricky and why, he already showed us the model design he's taking issue with..
 
user41796
8:49 PM
Best answer at the moment is "try it and find out"
 
user41796
Hola @MartijnPieters, @ArtOfCode
 
Martijn Pieters
Martijn Pieters
I have a feeling that stackoverflow.com/questions/32246376/… is too broad for Programmers too.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
hi
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
what do you call that wierd ninja guy picture you use?
 
Martijn Pieters
Martijn Pieters
But I wanted to give the post the benefit of doubt and run it by you guys first.
 
ArtOfCode
ArtOfCode
8:50 PM
@GlenH7 Afternoon
 
Martijn Pieters
Martijn Pieters
Waddayathink, leave it be or migrate?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MartijnPieters I'm going to call him thumb-man, because it looks like somebody put a ninja costume on their thumb
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@MartijnPieters imo leave it
 
user41796
It's kinda Gorilla vs. Shark and Too Broad at the same time
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 shark, always shark, I don't know why this is still a thing..
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
8:51 PM
a list of requirements followed by "is X or Y better?" doesn't usually work here, you have to describe your current design, focus on a specific concern or problem you have with it and then we can help
 
user41796
I'd go with leave it. There's a good question lurking in there, but I don't think it can be edited to bring the scope in.
 
enderland
enderland
but if you want to migrate one, might as well migrate this one:
Ok I'll move ill move it over there. I kept it vague because I haven't written many complicated forms before, so I'm not sure what problems I'll run into... but I feel like I will definitely run into some sort of issue. — pyramidface 48 secs ago
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa s/shark/scotch/
 
Martijn Pieters
Martijn Pieters
@GlenH7 that's what I thought as well, in spite of the OP trying to be specific about the rules of the fight, it is still question about who would stay up longer in the ring.
 
enderland
enderland
since i'ts going to get moved there anyways apparently...
 
user41796
8:52 PM
@MartijnPieters Agreed. Ultimately it's going to boil down to a subjective call on what's acceptable for perceived performance.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
oh man, I am not keeping up for a damn, I didn't even realize @MartijnPieters is a mod
I didn't notice you even running, apparently I'm an errant electorate member
 
Martijn Pieters
Martijn Pieters
@enderland reposting something is a different beast from moderator-sanctioned migration.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MartijnPieters and stinkier too
 
Martijn Pieters
Martijn Pieters
@JimmyHoffa :-D
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa Aren't you glad he didn't kick you now? :-)
 
Martijn Pieters
Martijn Pieters
8:54 PM
@GlenH7 shhh, don't tell him I can't kick in this room
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 I'm about to head home, what do I care
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@JimmyHoffa I remember comments on MSO to the effect of "omfg he's finally running!"
 
user41796
@MartijnPieters Sure you can.
 
user41796
Can't you?
 
enderland
enderland
no, SO chat is separate from everything-else-chat
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
8:55 PM
@Ixrec yeah, I stay away from SO. @MartijnPieters I don't know what compelled you but... icky. P.SE is a much more pleasant land
 
user41796
I thought SO mods had full mod privs in SE chat
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@JimmyHoffa that depends heavily on what you mean by "pleasant"
 
user41796
@enderland I did not know this. All I noticed he showed up as blue.
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
I'm only here because this is the site where I'm capable of posting decent answers
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Ixrec our content doesn't make you feel dirty after reading it, and sometimes teaches you things.
 
user41796
8:56 PM
@MartijnPieters - Are you able to see deleted chat messages on this side of chat?
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
@JimmyHoffa I would say the same of the SO I see in HNQ
 
enderland
enderland
so in about 2.5 days of my counter going, I have used copy 192 times, paste 230, cut 13 times, and.... auto entered my password/credittials 48 times
 
Ixrec
Ixrec
haven't checked if their front page is as volatile as ours
 
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