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12:12 AM
@JimmyHoffa Well, this compiles
    public Expression WithLog(Expression exp)
        return Expression.Block(exp, Expression.Call(
            typeof (Debug).GetMethod("Print",
                new Type [] { typeof(string) }),
            new [] { exp } ));
But doesn't execute, because exp returns a boolean.
new [] { exp.ToString() } ));
is what I actually want, but it doesn't compile.
12:27 AM
Where does this question belong? English, UX, somewhere else?
Q: How to denote/refer 'user' in the following case?

Manmohan SinghI have to write API documentation for a mobile loyalty program and I am doubting how to go through this... 1) The user asks its visit to be registered. 2) The user asks his/her visit to be registered. In context of Technical Writing, which sentence is correct and why? If none is correct, pleas...

Should I just flag it and let the mods sort it out?
@Snowman Closed.
12:58 AM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit At Employer^, half the devs (thats 3 out of 6) didn't wear shoes.
And then there's...
Po Bronson
Random House

The Nudist on the Late Shift is the true story of a new generation at the proving point of their lives, written by the most exciting and authentic literary voice to emerge from Silicon Valley, Po Bronson.        This is a defining portrait of young people in the whirl of an information revolution and an international gold rush. Masses of entrepreneurs and tech wizards, immigrants and investors, dreamers and visionaries, are heading west to seek their fortune and a new destiny. In Bronson, they have found their troubadour.        Already hailed by The Village Voice Literary Supplement as "the most complete and empathetic portrait of the Valley so far," The Nudist on the Late Shift establishes Bronson as the first author to capture the spirit of this new mecca. Recently chosen by the VLS as one of 1999's "Writers on the Verge," Bronson has spent the past decade searching Silicon Valley for the best stories, several of which have been published in Wired. Now he has woven those stories together, taking us inside the world of the newcomers, brainiacs, salespeople, headhunters, utopians, plutocrats, and innovators who are transforming our culture.         Writes the VLS: "Bronson evocatively portrays the overwhelming unpredictability of life in the Valley: getting fired can be part of daily life. But with a zero unemployment rate, the wounded don't stay that way for long. Bronson is at his best describing this radically shifting environment, where everyday folk with the righ
That particular story goes...
One guy was a nudist. He and his wife were nudists. His co-workers found out very quickly if they were ever over for a cookout, and well, they got used to it. From 10pm to early hours, this guy would go around nude at work - the late shift.
One day he saw a clock that read 20:00 and thinking it was 10pm, stripped down. He thought everyone had gone home - he was wrong. There was still a contractor there who hadn't left yet. And when she saw him walking around in the buff, was very concerned and reported it up her management chain. The contracting company wanted
There are other stories in there too, such as the head hunter (you could sell a company's org chart + telephone directory for $10k in the boom days) and the guy who wrote Yahoo Games (that Java applet) back in the day.
> She began to poke at my thorax, and in the course of conversation, she started talking about the programmer nudist who worked the late shift at one of the animation companies that dealt with Pixar. Peep! My interest was piqued, my abdominal wall sprang tight, she sensed my fervor, and she was on to another topic. When I urged her to tell me more about the nudist, she dismissively remarked that everybody knew about the nudist, he was an urban legend. When I begged, she said that yes, she would tell me about him some time.
> I RECEIVED AN e-mail , "Looking for me?" it asked, attaching a phone number. An e-mail I sent out was forwarded through several rounds of recipients to reach him. My e-mail did not say I was looking for "the nudist on the late shift." Someone I’d encountered had thought she remembered the nudist’s name, and I sent out e-mails with every spelling variation of this name, wondering if anyone knew how to get in touch with him.

So now I had the phone number of some guy. But I didn’t know if he was the nudist. It took me two days to work up the nerve to call. How do you ask somebody such a que
> IN THE PROGRAMMER community, eccentricity is de rigueur, and when David Coons and his wife held skinny-dipping parties, he invited his friends from work. So nobody made much of it that he took his clothes off at the office after ten P.M. At that hour, there was nobody left in the building but programmers and animators working on deadline, and these were open-minded people who couldn’t care less. Besides, David was no ordinary programmer; to get his work done, he invented tools that everyone else could use. He invented one of the first film-to-digital scanners and an award-winning digital
I misremembered some parts - its been a few years since I read it.
@Snowman wrong post to comment on it... and no. And California != Wisconsin winter. Things would be less impressive.
1:14 AM
@MichaelT Not sure what CA has to do with it, being on the opposite end of the country from me...
@Snowman ambient outside temperature.
@MichaelT I just had to take a jab at all the third-person plurals
@Snowman Ahh... ok... makes a bit more sense.
That said, there's a news paper "sfbg" which has an online edition relevant to the previous topic. There was a very nice photograph that involved an out of focus golden gate bridge in the distance. I can also speak to the experience of trying to get a photograph of the GG Bridge from the west side, climbing over rocks and telling my (female) photographer friend "don't look to the left" - "what - oh, no. I didn't need to see that."
1:42 AM
@RobertHarvey Expression.Array
@MichaelT why would he strip at 20:00?
@JimmyHoffa he was an eccentric programmer who felt that clothes hampered his creative process?
@MichaelT but you said he did it at 10pm
The thing is that it wasn't 10pm when he'd normally strip down... it was 20:00 and he misread the clock.
> David had been working slave hours for two weeks straight. The company was trying to get a feature film ready for release, and he would come in around four in the afternoon and stay until 2 or 3 A.M. Working that hard, focused, is like having blinders on. One night he looked at his clock, which said "20:06," and his tired brain misfigured. He thought, "Oh, good, it’s after ten." Still inside his office, he took his clothes off.
@MichaelT oh he thought it said 10; I use all 24 hour clocks for years now so I just presumed he read "20" which is 8
@MichaelT my current boss makes claim that he had a guy who would do that as well at a previous job. Apparently they had to lay him off (because of lay-offs, he was apparently a great engineer); so he just dropped all of it right then and there.
1:56 AM
California in the late 90s boom days was a strange place.
@MichaelT between the sheer amount of web pages on the bridge and my internet connection being terrible right now I can't see why that would be an issue - but I have a guess.
WTF is wrong with my Internet? Took me three tries to post that last message. I hate Time Warner.
@Snowman if you haven't been paying attention; let me connect the dots for you: They hate you too.
2:11 AM
Remembered I had some crystalized ginger in the cupboard... added that to the tea ball for the cider tonight.
@MichaelT if you're using a tea ball, do a favor and at least put a small orange wedge in. Cider without citrus is like Christmas without drunk people in Easter Bunny costumes
@JimmyHoffa in the tea ball is 1 tsp of orange peel (ground), 2 all spice spheres, and a crystal of ginger.
@MichaelT fresh is best but have it your way. Have you ever tried a Glogg mix?
@JimmyHoffa fresh is great, but it also implies a spoilable substance.
@MichaelT that's why I make the stuff in batch. I have like a gallon and a half of the stuff in my fridge from Thanksgiving- it lasts a fair long time from having been boiled a good while recently plus all the citrus.
that said you should get your hands on a bottle of Glogg just to try sometime
2:18 AM
@JimmyHoffa I think there's some of that at a nearby store... I'll check soon.
@MichaelT it's quite good just on it's own without wine even - but for best just do a 1-1 with apple cider and that stuff heated, very tasty.
typically it's mixed half and half with red wine for a mulled wine but plain apple cider substitutes with it perfectly to give a mulled cider
there's also glogg packages you can get
^-- I've used that too, just boil that in apple cider, is quite good.
2:33 AM
The additions that I don't have in mine are raisons, almonds, and cardamom seeds.
Wikstrom's Gourmet

Glögg is part of the Swedish culinary tradition. It is traditionally served during the Christmas holiday but has now expanded to become a popular drink all winter long. Drinking glogg is great way to warm up on a cold snowy day. The finished product is a spiced mulled red wine that can easily be made with this packet of spiced ingredients. Glogg is served hot with raisins and blanched almonds in a little mug with a handle. To make glogg with Wikstrom's Glogg spices, click on the recipe link to the left.
Grandpa Lundquist

Bev Glogg 26.4 OZ (Pack Of 12)(Note: This Product Description Is Informational Only. Always Check The Actual Product Label In Your Possession For The Most Accurate Ingredient Information Before Use. For Any Health Or Dietary Related Matter Always Consult Your Doctor Before Use.) 654523150287
And then there's:

Many European traditions showcase hot spiced wine. One of the first signs of fall in Germany and Austria are open air markets serving hot spiced wine, Gluhwein or Glow-wine. This fragrant holiday drink will make you glow with warmth. Make it at home now with CuisineMentor German Gluhwein Gourmet Spice Blend. Recipe included. Enjoy steaming wine or juice infused with flavors of ginger, cardomom, cinnamon, cloves, lemon and orange. Delicious! Also a delicious, refreshing hot weather spiced wine (or juice)drink when served cold. All natural, no preservatives, fillers or additives. Gluten-free. 2 packs. Each pack will spice 2-750ml bottles of your wine or 1/2 gallon juice, making 10 servings. *******Email for Glogg and Russian Spiced Iced Tea recipes!!!!******* Also see Limited Time "Bulk Package" in seperate listings.
> Premium mulling spices including crystallized ginger root, cinnamon, lemon and orange peels, cloves and cardamom(one of the world's most expensive spices).
Which is fairly close to what I've got in my tea ball right now.
aye. Just the whole idea of dried ginger in it claws at my brain though; fresh gives such a more distinct flavor.
if for nothing else - you simply can't get even remotely close to the same flavor from ginger that's not fresh - the orange and lemon zest and other spices can be dried even, but dried ginger is a travesty..
2:50 AM
I've had chocolate covered crystal ginger... that was... interesting.
3:02 AM
@JimmyHoffa Yeah, I figured that out. The past three hours have been terrible but it seems better now
3:20 AM
yo. Any UK residents here?
yo. Any UK residents here?
Better for Programmers (maybe even Mathematics) and I would enhance the part where you explain what/why you did already so it doesn't look like you're too lazy to do your homework. — zapl 17 secs ago
bah. So the letting agent I'm dealing with regarding the flat I'm about to move in is a bit of a jackass. He just tried to get me to sign a 49 page contract without reading it. So, I took the time to read it and it's full of mistakes and one blatant lie which I have caught him in 3 times before. I'm writing a complaint email to him and I'm wondering if calling his practices "unethical" is too strong.
any thoughts?
@MetaFight I can't help. Here in the U.S., "unethical" is business as usual. Not sure if people over there would be offended or even care.
I see. Well, I use that wording anyway. If he gets offended, well, he'll know how I feel.
1 hour later…
4:55 AM
@MetaFight not too strong - but I would absolutely under no circumstances sign a contract with someone who does things like that.
Can't trust them
2 hours later…
6:59 AM
Q: Wrapping an Expression Tree with a Logger

Robert HarveyI'm doing some work in Expression Trees. When you call ToString() on an Expression Tree, you get a lovely bit of diagnostic text (here is a sampling): ((Param_0.Customer.LastName == "Doe") AndAlso ((Param_0.Customer.FirstName == "John") Or (Param_0.Customer.FirstName == "Jane"))) ...

Seems to work fine. Would Expression.Array be better?
Ah, I think you got me. There is no Expression.Array.
2 hours later…
9:35 AM
Probably too broad question, and probably better on programmers.stackexchange.comBasile Starynkevitch 11 secs ago
2 hours later…
1 hour later…
12:39 PM
I'm Michael, 13 years old <-- I have seen that recently with another account. FLAG PLEASE! The name account now is George, but he tells us that he is Michael, seems legit! — gsamaras 7 mins ago
lol what is it with kids that makes them want to tell everybody their age all the time?
12:53 PM
Q: IE 11 dorpdown cursor changing based on the below button if its disabled disabled is coming how to resolve

shanmukhIn internet-explorer when i open select box default cursor behavior will arrow but when i scroll or come down and below select box there is disabled button cursor changes to disabled and if there is text box then cursor change to hairline cursor why it happen like that. any solution please

dat title
1:12 PM
Q: Why do we need both Priority and Severity?

PietrossI understand what they determine but is it really useful to assign those to issues found? I mean, it is either required to fixed quickly or not. I know how to set them, categorize them etc. I know IEEE/ISO do require to do that. I just do not see why.

That question is being voted as a duplicate of a closed question. I disapprove.
And by disapprove, I mean I don't like it. I think it would lead to a poor user experience.
1:33 PM
Happy Coffee Day
Happy Coffee Day...it's another slow day at the office, so that may mean excessive amounts today.
Hmm. I like the new question better than the old question. I wonder if I should merge them.
Into the new question, that is.
But not all the answers fit. I'm not sure what to do.
don't dupe unless dupe is exact. If one question is crap close that, if all questions are crap, close all, if no questions are crap close none. Only dupe duplicates, don't dupe similars. The user experience for people wanting a similar solution that's not the same solution getting stuffed into bad dupe chains is shite.
@JimmyHoffa Yeah. You saw the question above, yes?
Also...@enderland, handle that flag on Workplace plz.
I want to close it as a dupe of a question on Programmers.
The questions are not the same, but the older question is a worthless poll with a couple of nice answers. I'd leave the old question alone.
@amon Perhaps. I don't think the new question should be closed as a duplicate of it, though. Especially since it's closed.
1:39 PM
> but the older question is a worthless poll
> If one question is crap close that,
> with a couple of nice answers
and it's already closed
> closed as primarily opinion-based by MichaelT, Bart van Ingen Schenau, Kilian Foth, GlenH7, gnat Aug 11 '14 at 14:58
2:06 PM
@ThomasOwens done
I don't think it's a dupe though
sounds more like the bug went away with an unrelated change
It's still what you do. Although the dupes on those questions are all kinds of messed up.
but if he can revert to the version where the bug was last seen and reproduce then it's not a mystery bug that the dupes refer to
The correct answer is to inform the user that it's no longer reproducable.
Assuming that they have updated to the latest version since the report was filed. If they haven't, then yeah, you may need to branch and patch their version.
2:16 PM
but if you can reproduce in the old version and verify that it's fixed in the current version you have the reply of "fixed in version 5.2"
If the customer is running the latest version and they haven't seen the problem and you can't reproduce it in your environments, then it's time to close the issue. If the customer is still running the same version and they need it fixed, you create a branch, patch it, and release an update to them from that version.
Are you saying it's not a dupe for some reason?
to me it looks like the bug disappeared in an unrelated change which is different than the dupes that go into how to track complex bugs
Hm. You may be right on that one. Want to provide an answer if I reopen?
"we accidentally fixed this bug, let us know if you have it again!"
2:20 PM
OK. I'm going to leave my comment with a pointer to related questions. It's reopen, though.
answer provided
I edited the question too
@ratchetfreak and inlined...
(I didn't like scrolling up to the comment that may get lost in other comments...)
And have a +1.
Mission accomplished. Let's all call it a day now.
@ThomasOwens a coffee day?
2:31 PM
Everyone go home. Charge the vacation time to Thomas.
@ratchetfreak It's always called a Coffee Day.
2:53 PM
@ThomasOwens dupes are messed up and you just made them worse. Grumble mumble. I'm voting to delete all of them.
now at least future visitors won't think "I want an answer to that-> But it's closed as a dupe to something that's totally useless to me", now they're dupes.
@JimmyHoffa Better'n "closed as a dupe of a deleted question", which I have seen a couple of times.
@TRiG "better than" -> who care's what's better than what, when what's presented is terribly unhelpful one way or another
makes the site look like shit when users stumble into dupe chains that are the antithesis of helping them when their problem is A but the Q about it is duped to problem B which is feckin' pointless. I've tried to get solutions to things only to find they're duped to something that is totally different numerous times on SO and it's bloody irritating as hell
It's worse than a question being answered with "I figured it out!" without a solution posted
Q: Question got marked as duplicate of duplicate, which did not answer question?

SnorlaxI asked a legitimate question, which got marked as a duplicate. It says on the page that; This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please edit this question to explain how it is different or ask a new question. My qu...

2meta4me urgh my hed the explodes
why does everyone love the most terribly unhelpful tool at their disposal? Is it just because it's the easiest way to misdirect their actions and execute content without giving fair reasoning??
the fuck is the deal with things. Bah!
2 hours later…
4:39 PM
hi everyone!!!
wow, empty room on 10:40 am on a tuesday. did someone cancel coffee day while i was gone?
8/10/11 am
@durron597 @JimmyHoffa saw a question get closed as dupe and had a stroke.
Film at 11.
Hi! you were missed:
Nov 24 at 17:26, by Jimmy Hoffa
@durron is no longer allowed on SE is he?
i think the people who told me i couldn't go on were wrong, but i'm actually not at the office (yet)
disclaimer: anything i say in this room is me speaking as me, not as my employer etc. etc. AND SO IT WAS WRITTEN, AND SO IT SHALL BE
i was wondering if y'all could help me with a problem
we have a RDBMS full of data attempting to store bits of anonymized data in an attempt to improve page performance and information useful to marketing
the problem is, because it is an RDBMS, by nature it is hard to scale if we want to add more bits of data later, etc.
but we want an RDBMS because it's not customer facing, and because we want to do sql type analytics on the data
but we don't have a good spec for what we might want to add to it down the road
i feel like designing an rdb schema to be extensible is putting a square peg in a round hole; am i missing something?
By scale, do you mean "Cannot handle quadrillions of records?" Because an RDBMS can handle just about anything else up to that.
highly normalized database schemas would be fairly extensible, but annoying to use.
4:50 PM
And by "fairly extensible, but annoying to use," he means "fairly extensible." Yes, lookup tables can be inconvenient, but they have many virtues as well.
Just embrace the RDBMS Kool-Aid.
NoSQL is when you need to catalog all of the molecules in the known universe,
and you don't need joins.
@durron597 it's not extensibility: Welcome to the trouble with large scale enterprise RDBMS systems. It goes like this: Your product demands very high performance high quality transactional data operations with ACID and all the goodies. This is called OLTP - OnLine Transactional Processing. Your product also demands very high performance reporting across highly customizable perspectives with various aggregates. This is called OLAP - OnLine Analytical Processing.
the problem is, we have a dynamic page that we are trying to analyze. but we don't know what data we want to record right now
The techniques used to get each of those functions out of an RDBMS are at cross with eachother. OLTP relies on deduplication and less indexes for quicker writes/updates/deletes that are atomic and maintains consistency. OLAP relies on duplication and more indexes to give various perspectives of the data.
@amon is on the money about what my issue is. i am trying to think about how to design a highly normalized data set where columns are things like "float" and "long" instead of something more specific
@durron597 you don't need to know the precise data, what you need to know is what you want to know about the data to design proper OLAP style system.
4:54 PM
that way i can just add a new row and a new identifier to my enumeration and i'm good to go
yes i want OLAP
The "extensible" RDBMS structure is typically a "pivotted" type of structure where you have one row per data element, with a discriminator column defining which type of element it is, and another contextual column that allows you to proclaim that element is one of many - so you have "Context: 2, Type: First Name, Element: John" and another record "Context: 2, Type: Last Name, Element: Doe"
in this way you extend the types of data you record by simply adding new types
@durron597 stripping columns from their semantic information is wayyy to low-level, and leads to reinventing the wheel over and over again. E.g. you would be unable or severely hampered to write proper constraints. A column is more than a type!
right, but i feel like the column type in my db is going to be an equivalent of VB's variant
OLAP is all about making those pivots in various ways - depending on how highly performant you may want the reads to be, you can construct the aggregates ahead of time or on request.
@amon so every time i add a new data category, i should be adding a new table?
i don't see a way to keep the column names linked to their semantic meaning without having many many tables
i feel like adding columns to existing tables would be worse
4:59 PM
@durron597 both of those approaches is terrible... you want to pivot and just have the column name be a row value like I did with a column of "Type"
@durron597 I think that would be less insane, but I have no idea how frequently that would be necessary in your scenario. I'm a student, not a Big Data Practitioner
is element an index into a normalized table?
@durron597 why do you care what the column name is anyway? you can present the column to reports as you please
in other words, what would be the sql used to create your context, type, element table?
@durron597 in my example Context, Type, and Element are columns, they have values, you can see Context 2 has 2 elements: First and last name. Context 2 could be linked to another table that describes it as "Person Context" perhaps or what not
5:01 PM
what if element is a number and not a string
Context: 2, Type: Age, Element: 35
"what is the average age of everyone in my database?"
@durron597 you either store it as a string and convert on read in the code - or you have to make multiple tables for the various hard and fast data types (or use MSSQL's VARIANT type which stinks)
THAT is the problem, i don't want to use a VARIANT type or equivalent (postgresql, fwiw)
@durron597 select AVG(CONVERT(INT, [Element])) from yourTable where [Type] = 'Age'
is that performant? you want me to store everything a string?
that seems worse than using variant.
@durron597 then create an IntElement table, a StringElement table, a BoolElement table, a FloatElement table
5:03 PM
THAT seems more reasonable.
@durron597 I've done it both ways and unless read performance is super relevant and the data is large enough to cause trouble - I lean on strings because of the maintenance is lighter. They both function perfectly well though.
@durron597 it strongly depends on what you want - this goes back to like I said, OLAP vs OLTP: OLAP has duplication and more indices. It's tuned for query performance with numerous possible querying perspectives (by type, by context, by element, etc). OLTP is about deduplication and least-necessary-indices
i'll have to read about that later today
alright, i should probably think about moseying over to the office now
thanks for your help!!
@durron597 beware: looking up OLAP will give you lots of stuff about MSSQL's "OLAP" product
I'm using the term loosely to speak of the general techniques and concepts for structuring data to be analyzed vs. transacted upon - not speaking of specific technical products.
A: Why is the "period of a (pseudo)random number generator" important?

Jörg W MittagComputers are not Turing Machines. They are Deterministic Finite State Machines. Turing Machines have infinite memory, computers have finite memory. Turing Machines have arbitrarily many (though finite) states, computers can't have arbitrarily many states, the number of different states that a c...

Thanks @MichaelT for the edit!
What happened, did it end up in Hot Questions or on Reddit? Or are the votes just due to the edit bumping it up into the active questions?
@AshleyNunn I finished the final book. What a crazy turn of events
Overall the books were good, if the worldbuilding was a little on the weaker end. Definitely a great writer though.
Some points I felt were just... a little weak overall
5:13 PM
currently on phone call... where I need to tell my managers I want to do software dev... going to be interesting :o
@enderland Good Luck!!!
To the Dark Side, that path leads.
Patient, you must be, if options, you want.
stock options? nom nom nom
@Ampt but with todays medical costs being a patient is too expensive, I vote he run.
@JimmyHoffa: How do you partially execute an expression tree? Do you have to walk it with an ExpressionVisiter, find the node you want, convert it to a lambda and compile it?
And then Invoke it?
I'm trying to figure out how I can audit/log this thing.
@JörgWMittag no problem - just using it as a dup target for a new question.
Q: If the size of a set exceeds the period of a PRNG, is it true that some combinations may be unable to be generated?

geckoGiven that the size of some sets (example, 52! (about 2226 or 8*1067), the number of ways to shuffle a regular deck of cards) exceeds the period of most Pseudorandom Number Generators (PRNG), is it true that some combinations may be unable to be generated by the PRNG? Does it matter if tries to ...

5:26 PM
There are some clues at msdn.microsoft.com/library/bb546158(v=vs.110).aspx. The Linq provider there looks for WHERE clauses and partially evaluates them.
Some of the votes are likely from the edit bump. Others from the dup target question.
@ratchetfreak for fun random numbers: google.com/patents/US5732138
and I'm rep capped...
it's been a while since that happened
since November 9th... :P
and 11 times total so far
at least according to my legendary tag status
.... puts on tin foil hat.
5:50 PM
hrm. Why would SE be sending my laptop the *mobile* version of chat?
Everything is big and ugly :|
6:05 PM
@MetaFight because it knows the level of features you're capable of dealing with
primarily opinion based: how long is "worth it" to stick in a job you don't really like, if you expect something different?
@enderland over 2 billion years
6:30 PM
@enderland Workplace.SE Recommendation: QUIT!
@enderland Why do you expect something different?
@ThomasOwens hope still lives with this one.
@ThomasOwens I'm unconvinced
I like my current company overall, though, so I'm loathe to just QUIT immediately
6:45 PM
Have you negotiated first? You've been with the company a while, yes?
If they've invested money and effort into you, then they may not want to lose you, either.
there also needs to be openings in software dev, there have been... very few in past year
didn't you get turned down for one of them that opened up?
@enderland That is true.
@Ampt yah
If there's no business need for another person in a role, it's going to be harder.
6:49 PM
it's also cross divisions, blah blah
@ThomasOwens bad advice, never give your company the leverage to know you may be looking for one thing - they can do some pretty terrible things in such a case. Secondarily, never give them the opportunity to make your decisions for you. Living with the doubts they'll try on you is too much stress- make the decision of your own volition based on you and what you need, and don't look back on whichever decision you make.
@JimmyHoffa I'd be ok doing that if I had an offer, but not sooner frankly
@JimmyHoffa I don't know what you mean.
@enderland I'm just referring to whether to stay or move; if you decide to move - for gods sake don't act on it until you have a signed letter and have passed all the formal screenings.
@ThomasOwens don't negotiate your stay || go decision with your company is what i mean
@JimmyHoffa Why not?
6:54 PM
4 mins ago, by Jimmy Hoffa
@ThomasOwens bad advice, never give your company the leverage to know you may be looking for one thing - they can do some pretty terrible things in such a case. Secondarily, never give them the opportunity to make your decisions for you. Living with the doubts they'll try on you is too much stress- make the decision of your own volition based on you and what you need, and don't look back on whichever decision you make.
@JimmyHoffa I still don't get why you shouldn't at least look at a counteroffer made by your company, especially if it's a change in role.
@ThomasOwens don't give yourself an opportunity to be manipulated for somebody elses benefits regarding decisions of that import. Not because you may not benefit as well, but because the purpose isn't to benefit you - and it's entirely on you to live with the result. Living with decisions that are your own is far easier than those that were sold to you by another IMO. If you want to stay, go ahead and play politics for a position change or promotion or whatever if you please
But don't change your mind based on a counter offer. Stay or go should be your decision. Don't let someone else change your mind on that or you'll regret it.
That makes sense. If you want to leave, I don't even see the need to discuss a counteroffer.
@ThomasOwens my point exactly
If you aren't dead set on leaving, might as well see what they have to offer.
7:02 PM
@ThomasOwens well, I think it's a bad idea to look if you don't want to leave; gray area on those things is just stress. Being committed to either stay or go is far less stressful - less time spent struggling over it in your head which way to go.
@JimmyHoffa I'm not sure about that. I've interviewed for interesting positions before because I saw them come across LinkedIn. I've received two offers, even. However, neither were as good as what I had and I was otherwise happy at my current job.
I wouldn't actively look for a job if you aren't interested in leaving, but applying for a position here or there and taking an interview helps you to get a feel for the current state of things.
Plus, it keeps your interview skills sharp.
yeah, I mean don't actively look.
Golden Handcuffs: Because the future is a far off place, and we shouldn't concern ourselves with what's going on over there.
The pay is lower here, but the training/education benefits are good. For example, I had an offer for a better paying job at roughly the same commute. Everything but the education benefit and salary was comparable. Giving up free training courses every year of my choosing and graduate programs wasn't worth the 5% salary increase.
@JimmyHoffa I know... my benefits here are so good, perks of a megacorp :P
@enderland will you be more or less valuable on the open market 5 years from now?
7:07 PM
@JimmyHoffa probably more, within a specific niche I don't want to be in
But you're interested in doing more software development, yes?
Watch job postings at companies you are possibly interested in and build a portfolio on GitHub. You'll gain exposure to technologies to get your past HR and interviews, but also continue to gain salary and such until you get a position you want.
Software development is one of the few skills you can build to enable employment outside of employment.
@ThomasOwens What do you mean "employment outside of employment"
you can do job skills development outside an actual job
7:10 PM
@Brandin You don't need to be employed as a software developer to build skills at software development. All you do is need a computer for most things.
Real-time and embedded systems development is harder, but that's a niche field.
You can build relevant skills at home with a computer.
Oh I see. But it seems all/most skills can be built out of employment. For example, if you're a professional pianist, you can also practice at home to build your skills. You don't need a concert hall.
@Brandin That's another example. But it's harder for...oh...doctors, nurses, system administrators, administrative assistants, waiters, and chefs. The number of careers where you need to work in the field to build experience is more than those that you don't.
Might prod @enderland into a workplace question based on that.
That said, there are domains where field experience is needed. Working on an open source project with 1M loc is not like working in house on 1M loc.
And people can build toys all day, but without the "this is how you build for things people depend on" - well, it's hard to do that with personal projects.
@MichaelT One one side I have a NZ PR approval in my hand and on other side, I also got nomination from Saskatchewan province(CANADA) and waiting for Fed gov approval. FrontEndDev market is equally good in both places. Climate is a big advantage in NZ, as I am from tropical region. Cost of living is more in NZ. Not sure, what to do? I need to pay £500 for acepting NZ pr approval.
That is a life choice you need to make.
7:20 PM
@MichaelT Sometimes, yeah, that's true. But you can at least knock off a lot of the technology skills on your own. The job requires a particular language or framework? You can demonstrate knowledge in that. The job requires a particular IDE or version control tool? Depending on what it is, you can use it or a comparable tool and be able to talk about it.
Minimally, you can be competitive in the hiring process. You may not get everything, though.
You can indeed get to the point of having built the necessary scaffolding and foundation to build on with some other employment.
Though you won't get to the "spent N years building and maintaining a system for point of sales used in 300 locations doing tens of thousands of transactions per day" on your own.
@MichaelT the code I write on my own time has much higher quality than the code I get paid for, simply because my personal projects don't have to be economical (or have a pending deadline).
@MichaelT No, you won't. But not every item on a job posting is truly a requirement. Some may be negotiable.
I think we way overemphasize specific technologies. No one cares about what framework you used. Maybe you built everything in house. You are either a good engineer or not, then you can learn whatever the new place is using.
@amon Me too, but also because I won't make myself edit the formatting of an error message coming from an unrelated module that actually really gets it from third party software. Or come up with realistic real world POS system issues about having a system that supports every pricing scheme marketing can dream up, but also handles returns in a way that can be explained to customers, but can't be gamed.
The real world is usually harder than personal project code.
7:32 PM
It isn't about what you can do (I write beautiful code at home) but rather the responsibility you have had and been measured against.
@MichaelT you write perl at home, what the hell are you talking about??
@JimmyHoffa One day you'll cut yourself because your code is too F#
I write some perl. And some Java. I pull it up in an editor, pour some brandy, put on some German electronica and wonder why we can't have nice things.
@MichaelT there's lots of problems that are hard to solve without industry grade hardware - and knowing that's even a tool and how and when to use it is not something you can do just at home. Also collaborative processes and organized communication are huge parts of an industry engineers job which you really can't learn at home
@MichaelT have to say, I have really started to appreciate brandy far more recently...
The thing is with my perfect code at home, I don't have problems with working in a team, or that guy who used tabs, or all those users who put bad data in the database.
7:37 PM
@MichaelT what asshole used tabs? Burn 'er! Burn the witch!
It's the coding standard here. Everything is tabs.
@MichaelT you poor thing... not even coffee can cure such horribleness.
Now you must drink tab.
At least it isn't mixed.
@MichaelT Iduno, I think mixed would plausibly be the only way to stomach tab
7:44 PM
Did you finally get some?
@MichaelT no...so expensive...and I don't care for anise. I'm thoroughly curious but it would plausibly be a waste of the money
That looks like a nice summer drink.
@MichaelT agreed. Does it have any mint tones to it?
8:04 PM
huh, I never realized before; Medium is an anyone-can-write-articles shared-blog thing it looks like. @MichaelT you like to write. I may just poke around the idea of writing an article, lord knows I babble enough. "Coffeeism and the decline in cohesive estuation"
@JimmyHoffa Needs more swearing,
I heard that to get views on Medium, you need to us vulgarity as much as possible.
> The book The Practical Hotel Steward (1900) states that green chartreuse contains "cinnamon, mace, lemon balm, dried hyssop flower tops, peppermint, thyme, costmary, arnica flowers, genepi, and angelica roots
> Coffeeism and the scotch in cohesive estuation scotch
8:06 PM
@JimmyHoffa I've got my own site. Don't need / want medium.
@MichaelT do you write anything for it though?
Sometimes. Got a few drafts I need to finish polishing.
Anyone and everyone can have a blog, but we write things for P.SE for different purpose than we would for a blog. I could see writing something for Medium being different from a blog similarly. Just a ponderance.

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