@WorldEngineer Not much in the way of options right now... somebody else already made the decision and I don't incline to make case for something else

oh that wouldn't even be allowed anyway because it's not javascript

besides that I don't need a different language, I'd just like to use a framework that gives me info when I do something wrong beyond an error with a callstack that has none of my code in it for me to identify where the error came from

I'm playing with Backbone, but like a certain Mr. Snow, I know nothing

@Ampt backbone is horrible

@JimmyHoffa my my we are opinionated today aren't we. What's wrong with backbone

backbone is a hand full of objects with documents that say "Build these objects like this" and then show you how you can basically do everything from scratch yourself, which ends with you thinking wait - why did I use backbone when it didn't do anything at all?

@Ampt backbone just doesn't do anything, it doesn't do binding for you, it doesn't do templates, it just has some very barebones objects where you can fill stuff in and do all the wiring yourself, but you could have done that without backbone...

It does templates...

?

I'm using handlebars to make my templating easier, but it supports templates

@WorldEngineer I've never heard of Dojo, what does it do?

it looks like it's trying to be phonegapp?

Dojo is one of the earlyer frameworks to my memory

Never so much as looked at it before myself

@WorldEngineer yeah I saw their website. Not exactly the clearest about what it actually does

it looks like it's trying to do everything

rails for.. js?

so it's putting the MVC on the client side then right?

or MV*

that seems similair to what Backbone is doing

at least from what I'm gathering

only on day 2

It looks closer to JQuery UI to me...

bunch of canned widgets you can drop in place

so it's closer to something like Adobe CQ

or Day CQ/ Adobe Experience Management. Depends on the day you check haha

angular and backbone are the move towards some type of MVC/MVVMish on the client using templates/binding to make your view display your model in real-time

angular/backbone/all of their ilk don't come with canned widgets so much as control-flow structures to be used more like primitives for building your own widgets

angular does have great IoC built in, I do quite like that part

not so great on the debugging though eh?

@Ampt it tries to be very declarative which is good, but when you do things declaratively it means creating data structures and handing them around, so when you put an error in a function - that function is an a data structure that is handled by the framework that takes those structures and generates an application based on their declarations. When your code errors, there's no trace of your code in the callstack or otherwise because it was the framework that was manhandling your code

I imagine @WorldEngineer's room going dark, with a red rotary light spinning up, with a klaxon in the background. "Attention all hands. We've got a confirmed sighting. We are now going to alert level 2. Be on the lookout for posts"

@JimmyHoffa I think this all goes back to the JS convo yesterday. It's just not that great IMHO

I always felt bad that Mr. Worf didn't have a chair

everyone else gets chairs

why's he gotta stand

@Ampt I didn't participate in that conversation, but it really is good... you just have to treat it as a stupider language than people do

@Ampt why are you asking about JavaScript frameworks anyway, you getting put on something with JavaScript?

I'm strongly pondering throwing out the baby with the bathwater and trying to find some super simple templating framework and just doing databinding with it

@WorldEngineer you're always trolling reddit about this shit, what's the latest greatest in javascript frameworks you've seen of?

icanhazjs.com

that looks simple enough...maybe I just do that...

@WorldEngineer hipsterland, whatever brand you prefer

@WorldEngineer yeah, asm.js has a totally different use case though

@WorldEngineer I agree, unfortunately work isn't about what's most interesting... I think I might just grab this icanhazjs thing and see how far it gets me. If it goes far enough with ease I might just throw out angular altogether because it doesn't appear to be doing me any favors

Two more useful links for my collection of useful links that I'll never look at again.

@RobertHarvey eh.. only sort of useful

those are both kind of neat things that don't actually provide value for most actual development

If you're using something like Angular, do you still need client-side templating?

I am looking closely at this icanhazjs and this walrus as viable alternatives to give me a data-centric presentation layer

@Ampt He's the token Klingon.

@RobertHarvey I'm thinking I'm going to drop angular

Really.

Not enough monads?

@RobertHarvey it's got tons of shit to it that is totally not useful to me, and the primitives I would like to use from it I'm finding still require a ton of hand-holding because they're meant to be extremely flexible and powerful - but they sacrificed ease of use a lot to get those attributes

plus they don't allow recursive templates which is of course the first thing I'm doing as I try to construct a nav bar

So it's a Porsche, but what you really wanted was a Volkswagon.

@RobertHarvey more like a stock car -> you need mechanics hands on it all day or else it won't even drive

Formula One.

You need to be an expert just to let out the clutch.

can't have a navbar with sub-menus unless I manually limit the depth of those sub-menus by manually defining them... not a huge deal, it's just stupid and the web-app I'm creating will deal with hierarchical (tree-like) data, I'd like to be able to just define a view for an item once and reference itself for a way to present it's children

Seems like it could benefit from some Convention over Configuration.

@RobertHarvey yeah, that's why my first attempt at using it was to put a wrapper that gave me a consistent convention to use it by, but it didn't like me trying to bootstrap it...

You would think so. Then you examine Chernobyl, and realize they could have done with a lot less complexity.

@RobertHarvey ...what if you're designing an airplane cockpit? could you imagine the apple 1-button approach O_O

@RobertHarvey that's seriously fucking awesome.

@RobertHarvey Looks just like how I configured Emacs

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