The Whiteboard

user41796

6:00 PM

And can you change the color of the green button? Or is it green to show it's humming along?

durron597

@GlenH7 We are in texas. The server is in chicago

Red = Texas not connected to chicago

Yellow = Texas connected to chicago, chicago is not connected to the exchange

Green = chicago is connected to the exchange

we use the color to know if there's a network issue

user41796

OK.

user41796

You've got kinda fuzzy UX going on there as you're combining a status indicator along with a panic button.

user41796

But I suspect you can't easily resolve that.

durron597

@GlenH7 They are in the habit of clicking the button (which is yellow when they come in in the morning) to turn it green before turning the models on

It's not a panic button

<Partner> just thinks it is

"I turn it on by clicking this button, so if I want to turn it off, I click it again"

i told Boss's boss I put in the dialog and he said okay but gave me a look that he didn't really want me to change anything

doing more than that is not going to go over well

user41796

6:11 PM

@durron597 Ooops. :-) I'll need to soften something else I changed for you then.

durron597

@GlenH7 haha thanks

ooooof. stci client-relations

user41796

@durron597 YW. You should have a google notification from me with an updated version

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr you end up with the same stuff you do with serverside templating because it goes from one language through a translation layer: You have to start accounting for and countering the behaviours of the translation layer directly, doing weird concatenation and escaping of things, finding tricks to inject the behaviour you want through that barrier. The whole bonus to client side templating is that it's not translated; what you write is what you get

durron597

@ThomasOwens I just added client-relations to the freelancing STCI answer

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 I officially retired from P.SE when I made it over 10k. Anything else I do is like retiree-volunteering. That's what I'm going with.

user41796

6:18 PM

@JimmyHoffa slacker

Jimmy Hoffa

Jun 10 '14 at 21:17, by Jimmy Hoffa

@JohnP I've been called worse

durron597

@GlenH7 Lol, speaking of softening language, the screenshot says "You are attempting to log out. You almost never want to do this. Are you absolutely certain?"

user41796

@durron597 I'm actually okay with that for a warning box

durron597

@GlenH7 I never mentioned the bit that inspired bullet point four

When I emailed <Partner> this morning to ask him what's happening, I said "did you check Firmsoft?" (for those late to the discussion, Firmsoft is the website provided by the exchange to monitor orders in a separate mechanism from our trading system)

his response was "SPEAK ENGLISH"

"Did you check Firmsoft" was the entire email.

user41796

Epic

user41796

6:24 PM

I had assumed that was part of the mop-up required from pushing things into reset

durron597

I mean, how do are you supposed to be the guy monitoring a trading platform without even knowing how to manually view orders, let alone cancel them

user41796

It's like doing crosswords in pen. No need to cancel. No mistakes. Ever.

durron597

@GlenH7 It's like an American doing crosswords in Chinese in pen.

user41796

Just make sure you're fluent in mandarin then

durron597

@GlenH7 Email sent. Thanks again

user41796

6:28 PM

np. yw.

user41796

Did it make sense about the two sentences I completely dropped?

durron597

You didn't really drop them, you embedded what I was trying to say into other parts

by saying "here are some ideas to kickstart" that merges "i am open to suggestions"

And my default signature is "Regards" but changing that to "Cheers" makes it more lighthearted. Plus <Boss's Boss> is South African and <Partner> is British so Cheers is perfect

André

I got a interview with a big employer, cheers

user41796

@André props

André

Yeah, Cheers is great

psr

6:30 PM

@JimmyHoffa You're just writing to a proxy for the DOM - either declaratively or programatically. All it does is pass it through to the real DOM - after figuring out the diff between the versions. Doing that with the real DOM directly would be vastly slower. I like the idea that for complicated things you can do this programatically instead of templating - it seems like that avoids string manipulation, allows composition, etc.

I suppose I've never really liked data binding templates much in the first place though.

André

They work with C#, would be fun to learn a new thing

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr yeah react's version doesn't look terrible, and the programmatic option is always a good one to have available, I'm just always concerned when there's not a letter-for-letter take on my UI, though react looks likely decent. Either way I'd still encourage you look at that rivetsjs, it had the appearances of a very good platform

Though if performance is a constraint you have to be concerned with, that puts a spin on things; I have no idea what performance is like for any given JS framework; react.js from your description is doing Differential Execution which is agreeably a very high performance model per:

Mike Dunlavey, United States

9.8k 1 21 43

@psr I've heard this claim from folks before but just don't understand it... If you have UI you're tying some data to it, and doing it 100% manually from event attachments just stinks. That said, there have been countless attempts at doing data binding that were absolutely awful, and are always tons of half-rotten implementations out there, because it's hard and has enormously varied use cases. I just think sticking to the simplest is a great answer to that problem.

psr

@JimmyHoffa Actually it did. And very small. It mostly just lacks the "Facebook is using this so there may will be more compatible libraries than molecules in the universe" factor.

Jimmy Hoffa

There was one framework I saw which I can't find that was zero HTML and entirely like programming UI...

psr

@JimmyHoffa Personally, I think data binding is fine for easy cases. But if I want something complicated I go from "I have this entire general purpose programming language available" to "I have this silly templating DSL thing available".

Jimmy Hoffa

6:40 PM

@psr if the templating DSL is sufficiently simple, it's just one tool and shouldn't get in the way of you using other tools.

durron597

Aww we migrated an SO cross post whoops

Jimmy Hoffa

it's huge complex tools that get in your way; try using non-angular frameworks with angular...good luck, angular's going to puke on you and call you a cheater

psr

@JimmyHoffa There goes Angular then

user20683

@durron597 meh, flag it on SO

psr

@JimmyHoffa beat me to it.

durron597

6:42 PM

@WorldEngineer It's already closed as duplicate over there

user20683

@durron597 fair enough

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr there's another approach that's more like completely stepping away from HTML and web UI to use someone's javascript app framework which is actually a good model as well and can deal with binding very well, but you're kind of locked into the UI elements they make available then; here's one: enyojs.com/sampler/latest trying to find another that I actually liked...

psr

@JimmyHoffa I may not have used a good enough templating library. Usually if you have dynamic stuff and want to build a template programatically it just goes to string manipulation hell.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr I'm honestly still a fan of Knockout even though it's fallen far out of favor. It's very simple, doesn't get in your way, works in an obvious way and there's obviously going to be some string manip underneath but it treated things more in a DOM way from my recollection

durron597

@ThomasOwens I also added software-patent to the legal / copyright post.

Jimmy Hoffa

6:50 PM

ext.js I think is the one I'm recalling

now called "sencha"

André

I use ext.js at workplace

psr

@JimmyHoffa If I ever hit the point I need to generate a template via code - that's what I mean about string manipulation hell. At that point the template isn't doing you any favors. And needing to do that seems to not be all that rare, at least for me.

André

Actually a gwt-ext, it got wrapped for GWT. It's.. okayish

But I'm stuck with version 2, I'm sure the v4 is way better

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr yeah, that's ideally something you should never have to do; I bloody hate doing that..

durron597

STCI Status: legal 184 / copyright 117 / software-patent 22 / source-code 147 / skills 28 / recruiting 13

Jimmy Hoffa

6:56 PM

@André how much code do you have to write that manually constructs HTML using string manipulation?

André

Almost none, if I need something extra I code with GWT. If I were using pure JS I'd say minimal HTML. My main beef is that I have to workaround their UI widgets if I need some extra UI features

durron597

@André I'm working in my spare time on a project that uses a .jnlp and we are thinking about totally rewriting the UI. I suggested we go GWT, what do you think?

I'm not a web developer by any means

Someone else suggested we use ZK, and a third idea was vaadin

André

I'd say GWT is great, it leverage web development. It feels like Java Swing sometimes.

durron597

Feeling like Java Swing is not great, except for the fact that I'm used to it.

André

like new Button("Ok") button.addClickHandler(new ClickHandler(){})

psr

7:00 PM

@JimmyHoffa Perhaps the fact that I'm doing that right now as a way to sort-of-cache slowly changing Angular forms that render quite slowly is helping make react.js look more appealing?

André

I enjoy coding with it. @durron597. That bad part is that compile time is.. slow

durron597

@André hm

André

I took a look at Vaddin. Looks very server-chatty

But still just like GWT.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr D:

André

Overall, my experience with it is very positive. Use gwt-platform and maybe gwt-bootsrap3

Saves a lot of time dealing with GWT architecture edge cases. Like code splitting

It's a headache to do code splitting manually

Jimmy Hoffa

7:03 PM

Today I read on WikiHow steps not to fall down the stairs. With pictures. I feel informed. God bless the internet.

André

Thank god! @JimmyHoffa

Does it help to avoid death?

Jimmy Hoffa

@André judging by the stairs in my office's parking garage, it just may

@psr knockout is intelligent and performant in how it propagates changes from models to the DOM... But yes, React.JS is known for it's performance too.

André

@durron597 GWT can be a pain to test as well, if you end up testing real GWT code, it compiles it's code at runtime, a simple hello world test can take 15s on a good machine.

durron597

@André geez.

Can I just test the Java code if I trust the compiler?

André

Usually mocking it suffices.

GWT has lot's of interfaces that help it. Like HasClickHandlers

you can mock that interface to test the button click action.

MVP help with it.

And you can mock GWT widgets with GWTTestUtils

I'm stuck with gwt-ext that uses static constructors to check if has the js library is loaded. If not, it throws a runtime, so I can't mock it.

Oh, you can use Guice with GWT, I think you're familiar with it.

Jimmy Hoffa

7:17 PM

@psr matt-esch.github.io/mercury-perf <-- press run and it runs some perf benchmark on a bunch of different template/data binding frameworks then shows the results

user114359

@JimmyHoffa I live in the Land of the Free, Home of Those Who Need Directions on Shampoo

user114359

André

That's cool @JimmyHoffa

durron597

> Hold stick near centre of its length. Moisten pointed end in mouth. Insert in tooth space, blunt end next to gum. Use gentle in-out motion.

user15026

@Snowman Part of me wonders if anyone follows those specific shampoo intructions

user15026

7:21 PM

especially because most tell you to shampoo twice

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr this one looks curious as well - apparently high performance and is a coded approach instead of HTML: raynos.github.io/mercury/examples/shared-state.html

if you're already in Angular though, it doesn't matter. Angular's what you've got. Poke a hole in angular to add another tool and the whole thing pops like a balloon

user20683

@AshleyNunn I usually shampoo twice but I have absurdly oily hair

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer apple cider vineger

user114359

@AshleyNunn I am always too busy being grateful I am washing my hair with shampoo instead of realpoo.

André

I don't wash my hair, with any poo

user114359

7:31 PM

One or twice a month I wash my hair with shampoo, then soap, then shampoo again to get the oil out.

psr

@AshleyNunn Of course. As a developer when it says "repeat" I'm obligated to loop until the shampoo runs out.

3

Then I blame the specs.

durron597

> Pete and Repete were on a boat. Pete jumped out. Who was left?

user20683

@durron597 Odysseus

user114359

@durron597 I believe the correct nautical term is "port"

Stack Exchange

How We Built Our Blog

Jon Chan on July 2, 2015

There was a lot that went into building our new blog - including the new engineering channel. See why it took us six to eight weeks to move to a new system, migrate our old content, and redesign the site.

user41796

7:37 PM

@JimmyHoffa - IIRC, falls are the #1 source of workplace accidents

user15026

@Snowman facedesk

psr

@JimmyHoffa This would be more helpful if it were clear what the numbers mean.

user15026

@psr Showering must take you a while.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr time to complete I believe. Did you check the console for details? (Neither did I..)

durron597

in SOCVR Celebrates TylerH's Birthday on Stack Overflow Chat, 5 mins ago, by honk

psr

7:39 PM

@JimmyHoffa Yes. I don't get any in firefox. I'm probably supposed to be using Chrome though.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr ? firefox has a console, perhaps you need to have the console open before running it..

psr

@JimmyHoffa I know. It was. Didn't work.

Not worth debugging though

Jimmy Hoffa

yeah shrug

it's length of time required to complete (some test)

@AshleyNunn he's a developer, he probably optimized by shaving his head and using the entire bottle at once

psr

Then react didn't do too well.

user15026

@JimmyHoffa That would do it.

Jimmy Hoffa

7:48 PM

@psr both mercury and mithril look like decent libraries and performed well, if you have a look at them. They don't appear to have HTML templating though, all code-style UI modeling.

joapp.com/docs/#Quick Start <-- this looks pretty cool and has both templating and code-modeling

So far rivets still appears the most impressive to me, or knockout for simplicity. meh

user20683

@JimmyHoffa your wife is a zoo keeper yes?

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer was; that was out of left field

primate keeper for years

user20683

@JimmyHoffa sorry, I am working on D&D stuff and trying to figure out how much a gnoll would eat per day on average

user20683

Since gnolls are basically hyenas, I figured the food reqs might be similar

user20683

I'm assuming something between a wolf and a lion in terms of food intake

user114359

7:52 PM

Jimmy Hoffa

I really don't know how to help you here

user20683

@Snowman this is fair

user20683

but I would need to figure out a more general formula

user20683

for which Biology is probably a better site to ask

André

I think there was some spider food intake question with a formula there on RPG.SE

durron597

7:53 PM

@WorldEngineer Have you read this?

user114359

@WorldEngineer eh, if you are asking about fictional creatures, this might be better:

user114359

durron597

For gnolls, rpg is definitely better.

user20683

@durron597 no because I'm working on it for 5th edition

user20683

I don't pay much attention to pathfinder as it doesn't fix the issues I had with 3.5

durron597

7:54 PM

A pathfinder gnoll's food intake probably isn't that different from a 5th edition gnoll

user20683

@durron597 probably not

durron597

@WorldEngineer What issue did you have with 3.5 that pathfinder didn't fix?

user20683

@durron597 class proliferation

durron597

Btw, how is 5th? I looked at fourth and that soured me on whatever the heck wizards is doing these days

user20683

amongst other things

durron597

7:56 PM

I haven't even looked at 5th

user20683

@durron597 5th is good

durron597

Well, first, do you agree with me that fourth is really stupid / worse than 3.5

user20683

@durron597 I agree that it wasn't D&D

user20683

it was a solid fantasy RPG

user20683

/tactical wargame

user20683

7:57 PM

honestly though, I wanted to play a tactical wargame, I'd play Warmachine

user20683

I spent enough years giving money to Games Workshop

durron597

If I wanted to play a tactical wargame, I'd play a video game not a table top

user20683

@durron597 to each their own

durron597

Or, I'd play an actual board game like Twilight Struggle

user20683

@durron597 dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/basicrules

user20683

7:59 PM

that's the basic rules for 5th

André

I played a sample 5e game, I enjoyed it

I'd prefer it over 3.5

user20683

provides you with the rules and the 4 most iconic class options

durron597

I liked everything in 3.5 except the lack of class balance

user20683

@durron597 classes are much more balanced

durron597

I haven't had an opportunity to play pathfinder but I think I'd like to

user20683

8:00 PM

it's very much a return to the mentality of 2nd edition

user20683

with all the experience in design from 3 and 4

durron597

ugh 2e? did they bring back THAC0?

user20683

@durron597 no

user20683

not even a little

user20683

it's actually much easier on the math

durron597

8:01 PM

Did they bring back rules for hit adjustment based on hill incline?

user20683

@durron597 nope. I mean more the spirit of it

user20683

Theater of the Mind

durron597

There are three priorities in an RPG - gameplay, simulation, and story

user20683

@durron597 4: exploration

durron597

2e was a simulation game. they tried to make it so "accurate" that they sacrificed gameplay and story

user20683

8:02 PM

depending on which model you want to follow

durron597

3e and 4e were gameplay games

white wolf is a story focused system

user20683

yeah I'm familiar with the idea

durron597

exploration is story

i'm talking about rulebook design when i say those three priorities

1) do these rules allow us to play a good game? e.g. tactical combat

2) does the system accurately represent a real world? e.g. laws of physics

3) does the system allow the DM to tell a good story?

user20683

mostly story focused I'd say

user20683

but not to the extent of WW or FATE

André

8:05 PM

2e? Fun times.

rolls to check if I managed to run 10 feet

falls flat on the ground

user20683

Skill system is looser than 3.5's

user20683

you can have a very simulationist game

user20683

or not

durron597

@André angrydm.com/2012/12/…

André

I enjoyed the fact that 2e is deadly

user20683

8:06 PM

it's very much about putting freedom back in the hands of the DM and the players to run the kind of game they want

user20683

@André ever played Shadowrun?

André

Just the electronic games, never had the luck to find a group that plays it.

user20683

it's the trope namer for the "Chunky Salsa Effect" for a reason

user20683

5th edition can flexibly run everything from something as soft as world of warcraft all the way to Dark Sun proper

user20683

except that it still needs psionics rules

André

8:08 PM

I think they did a great job with 5e

user20683

but those are supposed to be forthcoming at some point

user20683

I have a few issues with some minor things (poor Beastmaster Rangers...)

user20683

I would not call it a game for optimizers or rules lawyers

André

optimizers...

Mystra chosen with immunity on anti-magic field, that's cheap.

so they can cast magic within the the field

user20683

@André Pun-Pun was optimization reductio ad absurdum

user20683

8:11 PM

dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29

André

I'm not even getting on those absurd math optimizations

> Optimization Rating 9001 / 5

haha

user20683

@durron597 @JimmyHoffa Assuming food requirements similar to a lion, a gnoll would eat about 3-5 bulls worth of meat per year

user55340

@enderland is this workplace material?

user55340

programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/288565/…

user55340

Ok, so he just self deleted it.

user55340

8:22 PM

>
Every time I switch to a new job I suffer to a feel of uncertainty how to deal with a new project, how to learn the codebase, how to learn the domain which is different every time, how to learn technologies. However, in the past when I joined new teams as regular or senior developer but now I was hired as a team leader and my new team was and is working together for a couple of years. Don't get me wrong I am not freshly promoted to leader role and have couple of years experience in it. What is really difficult to me is how to gain authority in the team while I can't show really great perf…

user20683

@MichaelT I think there's a book called "The First 90 Days"

Telastyn

authority comes with respect.

André

Any book on people skills regarding gaining respect would help I suppose

If you don't have the domain knowledge, acknowledge those who do and delegate, and learn with them.

enderland

8:37 PM

@WorldEngineer my boss recommended that to me, I'm actually going to be reading that next week...

user20683

@enderland it's decently popular

enderland

already setup my vacation out of office. SO READY TO BE OUT OF HERE TODAY hahaha

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer that's all? How about liger?

user20683

@JimmyHoffa average adult male lion eats about 15 lbs of meat per day

user20683

I'd expect a liger, being somewhat larger to eat between 18 and 20

user20683

8:38 PM

(A liger is a real thing, they are not bred for their magic)

user55340

They eat geep.

user55340

Sheep–goat chimera

A sheep–goat chimera (sometimes called a geep in popular media) is a chimera produced by combining the embryos of a goat and a sheep; the resulting animal has cells of both sheep and goat origin. A sheep-goat chimera should not be confused with a sheep-goat hybrid, which can result when a goat mates with a sheep. == History == The first sheep-goat chimeras were created by researchers at the Institute of Animal Physiology in Cambridge, England by combining sheep embryos with goat embryos. They reported their results in 1984. The successful chimeras were a mosaic of goat and sheep tissue. The parts...

user15026

8:49 PM

@MichaelT Science, you crazy.

psr

@WorldEngineer Which means a 5th edition gnoll would be about 5-7, assuming bulls/editions ratio stays constant.

@JimmyHoffa They didn't perform very well. On that one test.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr O_o mercury looked good I thought... perhaps I didn't look so close

@WorldEngineer hah! Not bred for their magic my eye. sure... and 15lbs of meat per day? Holy smokes....

user20683

@JimmyHoffa they can gorge on up to around 60

user55340

Sigh. That recursion bike shed is going to get reopened.

user55340

@ThomasOwens on the newly locked - care to remove environment as that's an ugly mess?

user41796

9:06 PM

@MichaelT 2 more VTDs and it won't re-open

user55340

@GlenH7 it got two up votes and can't be speedy vtd anymore.

user55340

Fortunately only gnat has spent a cv on it so far. Should be able to muster five.

psr

9:26 PM

@JimmyHoffa Mercury was slow the first run (4k when some others were around 200, but subsequent runs were down to 300 or so. Caching?

Nope. Cleared cache and re-ran and Mercury was fast on first run. Put it down to other PC activities or solar flares.

durron597

9:39 PM

@MichaelT Why did you edit it to remove knowledge-base but not recruiting?

Any blue names here

user41796

@durron597 For which site?

durron597

@GlenH7 Any

user41796

Then nope. :-)

durron597

can you add "/ recruiting 13" to my STCI status post

Have I mentioned how dumb it is that an engineering blue name can edit my chat message but I can't edit it myself as room owner

Oh wait, yes I have

@GlenH7 Thanks

user41796

@durron597 it's okay, I'm a peon on SO chat rooms

user41796

9:43 PM

NP

durron597

Hopefully all of those 13 questions will have a CV on them or be edited by tomorrow. I will throw my non review spares at them

Ooh. I'm going to pass Martijn tomorrow

For my next trick I'll pass him in SO rep

In any event, I downvoted the question. Maybe two other kind souls in this room will downvote it

Wow, +7/-8

user41796

@durron597 good luck with that

user41796

@durron597 You should throw a close vote on the "best functional language" question that just cropped up

user41796

Kick it to the queue

durron597

@GlenH7 You're funny

psr

9:48 PM

@JimmyHoffa - While we're at it, have you looked at github.com/elm-lang/elm-compiler?

durron597

Maybe @psr will do it. And downvote the recursion question

user41796

Would someone kick this into the close review queue, please? For that matter down and delete votes are welcomed on this one

durron597

I downvoted the functional language one. Best I can do for another 2 hours 11 minutes

Ixrec

how does that recursion one have 4 reopen votes

user41796

I just created an 1100 line long method. I'm kind of proud of myself.

durron597

9:52 PM

@GlenH7 Did it start from 5000 lines?

user41796

@Ixrec That would be the question of the day

durron597

and you did "extract method" for 1100 lines?

user41796

@durron597 Nope, started from 1. :-D

user41796

I'm populating a datatable

user41796

so it's just 1100+ calls of dt.Rows.Add(...);

durron597

9:53 PM

@Ixrec Did you downvote it already?

@GlenH7 And there's no way to use a loop?

Ixrec

@durron597 yes

durron597

Or read from a file?

user41796

@durron597 honestly easier to just create a really messy method. It's mock data.

durron597

@GlenH7 mock data sounds perfect for using a loop

user41796

But the method is buried within a mock(ing) class which can be easily deleted

psr

9:54 PM

@durron597 Can you elaborate? Googling loop wasn't very helpful.

user41796

Well, it's not mock data, it's static data that represents a sample scenario

user41796

@MichaelT - Recursion question is back to -3 if you want to drop a VTD on it

durron597

@psr Here's a loop (slightly NSFW - no sound)

user41796

@psr - certainly more appealing than the crud I'm dealing with at the moment

durron597

@amon if you're still nearby can you VTD this

office is closed tomorrow and everyone above me has been gone for 45 minutes. new guy has been gone for 20. time to go

take care all

user41796

10:00 PM

see ya

user55340

Pink background now.

user41796

Makes it a bit harder to reopen... :-)

user55340

The reason I removed knowledge base is that it was just not even wrong to be tagged that.

user41796

I wonder what happens if I cast the 5th vote to reopen while deleted

user55340

We did that before.

user55340

10:02 PM

Had gnat cast a reopen in a window that hadn't refreshed.

user41796

I wonder if the SE devs ever wish that their users would stop trying to break the site...

Ixrec

@durron597 done

user55340

I'll do a preemptive meta post on the recursion when I get home explaining why it got three delete votes.

Ixrec

cool, I feel like I missed a lot there so it might be useful

user55340

10:34 PM

Ok, so I did it before I went home.

Telastyn

11:08 PM

okay, coding evening. Today is generic inference.

Duga

11:22 PM

This question is off-topic because SO is not a site for hiring programmers. — Deduplicator 1 min ago

Jimmy Hoffa

11:37 PM

@psr either way, my take away from everytime I do this analysis of JavaScript frameworks is: There's a few main good tools available: DOM style templates, code-style UI modeling, and data-binding. Given these tools your best bet is to look at the frameworks that do whichever of these tools you want best, and otherwise stay out of your way. The biggest thing to note is there are quite a few pretty well put together choices that people never talk about.

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