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Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
1:48 AM
Anybody who likes a calm puzzle game absolutely has to go grab Antichamber for $1.99 off the steam sale @MichaelT @AshleyNunn @WorldEngineer
 
user114359
@JimmyHoffa Looks like I either bought that one already or picked it up in a random bundle I don't remember. I'll have to check it out, downloading now.
 
user114359
Also, my wife bought me an early Christmas present: Keurig K550
 
user114359
That's true love right there.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
2:49 AM
:/
you'll have to hack it if you want to use hiline coffee
Hope you can find a company making good K-Cups with the DRM; the majority of Keurig's main partner pod makers make really weak watered down coffee (which is what lots of people prefer, thus why they partner with them- they're more popular)
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa The DRM for K cups is the IR reflectance of the ink printed on the lid.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT oh, so if you buy a 2.0 K-Cup you can just peel the lid off, and glue it to the lid of whatever other cup you want to use? What a pain in the arse.
glue; rather just set I mean
 
user55340
Or have a plastic that matches it.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT either way, having to do that stinks. Besides, you can't just run it empty then can you? I do that all the time because it's the fastest device for making a cup of water hot enough to steep a tea bag in my house.
If I ever have a hot cocoa pouch I want to use; pour it in a cup, and run the keurig empty to fill the cup with water hot enough etc. Heat the water wayyyy faster than a nuke.
bleh. 2.0 is a crock now that I read about it. Screw that.
May my 1.0 never ever break down.
 
user15026
@JimmyHoffa I've discovered the Keurig at work, when you select the biggest cup, will give you enough hot water for a cup noodle
 
user55340
3:33 AM
@AshleyNunn Keurig coffee noodles?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT HOW ARE CAFFEINATED RAMEN CUPS NOT A THING?
 
user55340
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
no no no
we can do better!
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa water joe + coffee? As in make the coffee with Water Joe.
 
user55340
Or how about caffeinated jello?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
3:37 AM
I want just-add-water caffeinated ramen. This is far too good an idea not to have been made. It must be.
@AshleyNunn We rarely have tea k-cups because a box is so expensive and has so few - but tea bags come with a ton in a box for next to nothing. This is typically how we make tea.
Also, you can get like 4 of those land-o-lakes butter company hot cocoa pouches in varrying flavors for a buck which is typically a lot better than the crap hot cocoa in k-cups
also - tip for anybody who has flavored coffee creamers in the house - anytime you make hot chocolate, give a splash of that stuff for more yums.
 
user55340
My mother got a Keurig the other day. Its a matter of convince - the quick coffee vs brewing it.
 
user55340
 
user55340
(noting that it exists - and someone is making a killing on that with $3.33/cookie)
 
user55340
4:42 AM
 
overexchange
overexchange
5:05 AM
What is blur-radius in box-shadow? I could not get the meaning. Is it physics term?
 
user114359
5:18 AM
@JimmyHoffa we've already been over this, the DRM is pathetically easy to bypass. Also, it works fine for getting plain hot water. Just run it empty, and push the button until you want it to stop.
 
Duga
Duga
9:15 AM
This is a conceptual question and there is another stackexchange which has specialized on this (programmers.SE). However you might also get help here although there is a risk that the question is seen as too broad here. — Trilarion just now
 
 
2 hours later…
Duga
Duga
10:57 AM
This question is best suited for the Programmers.se site imho. — Konamiman 5 secs ago
 
 
2 hours later…
Lightness Races in Orbit
Lightness Races in Orbit
12:47 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Don't be lazy — Dean 37 secs ago
lol?
 
Duga
Duga
This question would probably be better suited for programmers.stackexchange.com; keeping that in mind, you could have an ajax call to a grail's action that validates the object - you could use the same validate() method (and associated domain validators that come along with it) so no duplication of code. — tylerwal 58 secs ago
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
Good morning, Programmers.
 
Lightness Races in Orbit
Lightness Races in Orbit
yeah that
I'm debugging a supplier's Java code with some reverse engineering
installing Netbeans and the JDK to construct a MCVE and feeling dirrrty
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
1:08 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit NetBeans? Eww.
Is it just me, or are Ruby and Python not so friendly for distribution? Ruby has gems, but I don't think the average person wants to deal with installing gems to get dependencies. For Java, you bundle JARs in a distribution. For C and C++, you bundle DLLs and object files. For Ruby and Python, you do...? Nothing? Tell people to go out and install the right dependencies on their own?
 
amon
amon
1:24 PM
@ThomasOwens It is much easier to tell someone to pip install this-package than to have them copy JARs or DLLs around. Package managers trump installer scripts. This works especially well for open-source software, but leads to some minor headache for deployment or commercial distribution.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@amon What do you mean "copy JARs or DLLs around"? As a developer, I have tools like Maven (which I'm warming up to, when I'm not behind an overly aggressive corporate firewall). But when I distribute to a user, I usually have a /libs directory that has all of my external dependencies in it.
No one copies anything. I can just TAR or ZIP up a directory and tell someone to extract it and execute. I don't see a way to do that with Ruby or Python.
If I'm deploying a JVM application, the only requirement the user needs to care about is a particular JVM version and it should just work on every platform (as long as I don't have platform-specific code). Native (C and C++) applications are a little harder, but I'm usually targeting one specific platform, so it washes out.
 
amon
amon
The Python/Ruby/Perl equivalent of a tar ball is to create a distribution file that declares all dependencies and contains the code, and is installed by the language's package manager. The fundamental difference between tar xzf my-cpp-project.tar.gz and pip install my-python-project.tar.gz is that the latter will automatically take care of pulling dependencies and running install scripts, but requires the package manager to be installed. This isn't different from requiring a JRE.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@amon Think about a non-technical user who uses a GUI and likes to click on things. They don't want to type things into a console. They can click to extract tarballs and ZIPs. And it is different than requiring a JRE - what modern OS doesn't come with some kind of JRE? Mac doesn't, but it will download it when it's needed. Windows does, and most Linux distros come with at least OpenJDK.
 
amon
amon
I know of no OS that comes with a JRE by default, except perhaps Solaris. But you are right, the lack of graphical tools would be problematic for non-technical users.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@amon Ubuntu and Fedora come with OpenJDK by default. Mac will offer to download a JRE if you try to execute a Java application, at least according to this question on Ask Different, so it's trivial to install. I guess Windows doesn't, since XP.
But I'm not saying that dependency management is hard in Ruby and Python. It's not, for people comfortable with a command line. But it is harder than it should be.
It's almost like Ruby and Python manage to make development simple. I would expect any developer to grasp the concepts of managing dependencies. But as soon as you try to make things for non-technical people, it would almost be better to provide it as a service or minimize dependencies on external libraries and packages.
 
Ampt
Ampt
1:47 PM
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
2:07 PM
Happy Coffee Day
 
Lightness Races in Orbit
Lightness Races in Orbit
@Ampt got bored about 4/5 through
nice though
 
Ampt
Ampt
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Drink more coffee? It wasn't even that long lol
@JimmyHoffa Happy Quad-shot Day**
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Snowman oh so it'll work without a cup? And yeah if the DRM is that easy it'll be worth it to bypass it to use the hiline stuff.
 
Ampt
Ampt
Is the Hiline stuff really that good?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@overexchange the radius of a blur is the distance from solid color A to solid color B where the gradient smoothly transitions between the two colors. A blur in that instance is going to be a smooth transition between 2 colors - one being the box-shadow color, and the other being the background color the box shadow is blurring to. If it's 10px then at the edge of the shadow will be a solid box-shadow color, and 10px's away will be the solid background color, with 10px smoothly transitioning
@Ampt it really is the best K-Cup I've had.
also, it's no more expensive than a typical box of K-Cups - and with their subscription service I never have to go buy the things
there's really no reason not to use it unless you prefer the watered down junk coffee most folks do
then get whatever cheapo off-brand junk you please
 
Ampt
Ampt
2:21 PM
Huh... maybe I'll have to look at that.
They ship it to your house?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
yep
comes with funny coffee business cards too which are now plastered all over the cabinet above my keurig
I think my favorite so far is "Coffee is my spirit animal"
Just go on their site and buy a variety pack to try. Like I said, it's no more expensive than buying a box of K-Cups at the market; give it a shot and see what ya think.
 
Duga
Duga
3:10 PM
I'm not sure this is a suitable question for stackoverflow, maybe try : programmers.stackexchange.com My 2 cents : Separate server side from client side and work from there. Best of luck. — Pogrindis 17 secs ago
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
3:20 PM
Remember how I was saying that not all companies need software engineers to build their software and how engineering was a specific mentality? I'm rethinking that first one, since there are companies that would have fallen into the category of "don't need software engineers", but actually do if that means actually considering the ethics behind their software and platform and the impact to society.
 
enderland
enderland
popcorn
 
user41796
@ThomasOwens Yeah, um, that's not agile though, so we won't be having any of that talk now will we?
 
Ampt
Ampt
@ThomasOwens ugh, not ethics. I hated that course. They give me money, I make bombs for glorious motherland.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@GlenH7 I suspect that's the response. Although you can replace "agile" with "going to make us major bling cash dollars now".
 
user41796
equivalent terms, yes
 
user55340
3:30 PM
@ThomasOwens ethics: yagni (and auto correct wants that to be "Yannis" which I find hilarious)
2
 
enderland
enderland
YAGNY ?
 
user41796
@enderland sacrilege.
 
user55340
In '98 I worked with an immigrant from Iran who left because he wanted to work with graphics systems rather than guidance systems.
 
enderland
enderland
I've worked with many people before who don't want to work with any weapons/governmental system
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
I don't want to work on things that kill people...
 
enderland
enderland
3:33 PM
kill people... intentionally or unintentionally? :P
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
That's totally OK, I think. Although there needs to be good engineers working on those things. War probably isn't going away any time soon, and if we're going to have software in weapons, I'd like the people working on that to make sure that the things kill the right people.
 
user55340
(His area of interest was getting the "worms" out of the .gif dithering algorithms)
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@MichaelT Do you realize how important that is? How else can we share really high quality cat GIFs on the Internet?
 
Ampt
Ampt
@ThomasOwens how do you define "Kill people" - like, do you not want your software to actually prime the charge, or would having made the software that stabilizes the drone be too far?
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
I would not want that burden placed upon me.
 
user55340
3:36 PM
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT an ellipsis would have sufficed to make your point. Geez.
 
user55340
Image with some worms in it. ^^
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@Ampt I don't want to make software for weapons systems. My software is part of the kill chain, though. You need visual confirmation before weapons can be launched. Theoretically, someone can use an image processed by software that includes my work to make a go/no-go call on a strike.
 
Ampt
Ampt
IIRC your company works on some vision stuff for the government - what if one of your vision systems was put on a satellite that picked out targets for missile strikes
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Ampt it's a pickle too though because - who's software bugs do you think cause more deaths: Bugs in a guidance system, or bugs in a life saving medical device? They both have the capacity to save or end lives.
 
Ampt
Ampt
3:38 PM
ah, we had the same thought
@JimmyHoffa lets just take accidents out of the equation for the moment - we'll assume that all software is perfect (I know, the pragmatist in you is dying, just go with it)
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
Although, I believe the drones save lives. You aren't putting pilots at risk, for one thing. It's just that the people deciding to use them may not be making the right choice. And any idea of autonomous weapons launches are stupid and idiotic - a human needs to pull the trigger, always.
 
user55340
boolean isEthical(Decision quandary) { /* todo: this is undecidible */ return true; }
2
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Ampt same story stands. How far down the rabbit hole do you want to attach your causal reality? What if a medical device saves a newborns life and he grows up to be hitler? What if a guidance system accurately identifies and kills hitler? What if hitler came back, through magical kung fu powers, all in an attempt to kill kung fury and take his powers?
 
Ampt
Ampt
@ThomasOwens Save lives? Like, who's lives?
 
enderland
enderland
the point of a military is to either 1) kill people or 2) be good enough at killing people other people don't want to start a war
 
Ampt
Ampt
3:43 PM
@JimmyHoffa I guess kung fury will just have to HACK TIME to stop HITLER!
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@Ampt Pilots, mostly. There are also unarmed drones that do things that humans can't do or are risky, but are worthwhile - flying into hurricanes, flying over forest fires.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Ampt but is hackerman in fact ethical !?
 
Ampt
Ampt
@JimmyHoffa 2meta4me
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
I'd rather send a drone over a forest fire for imagery (IR is great for detecting hot spots) or even water dumps. It's hard to navigate over a forest fire, from what I've understood. I'd rather lose a drone than a manned plane to provide support.
 
ratchet freak
ratchet freak
or first add a IR spotter camera to the firefighting helicopter
 
Ampt
Ampt
3:45 PM
@ThomasOwens 100% agree - I doubt many would argue that point. So lets say you're on the team making the software for that drone when the DoD signs a deal with your company to stick bombs on that same drone, software and all, and fly it over (Whatever country the military complex is bombing this week)
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
They also have much longer loiter times. In search and rescue, do you want humans flying a plane for 12-24 hours?
 
Ampt
Ampt
do you quit?
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@Ampt Nope. Having good information could be the difference between bombing an enemy convoy and friendly fire.
 
enderland
enderland
Nearly all companies making physical machinery have some military involvement
 
Ampt
Ampt
So it's less about killing people, and more about killing the right people?
 
enderland
enderland
3:47 PM
4 mins ago, by enderland
the point of a military is to either 1) kill people or 2) be good enough at killing people other people don't want to start a war
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@Ampt Preferably even killing no one. For example, if you have a good enough picture of what's going on to hit a structure with no people around, then that's good too.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@enderland I like the option where it's about continuing to pump hundreds of billions into military contractors to keep us "safe"!
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
You don't necessarily need to kill people to destroy supply depot. But there are times when you may need to kill - for example, finding a sniper.
 
enderland
enderland
@Ampt that's the (2)
though not just "us" at this point, also much of the world
 
Ampt
Ampt
Gah, the world is safer than it's ever been. I don't buy into the security theater they've been putting out for the last decade
puts on tin foil hat
 
user55340
3:50 PM
It could also be used in, for example, prisons and reduce costs for manning towers. Not that I know anything about that.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
I don't like how the military is always seen as a combat thing. The military can do a lot of good in the world. The Army Corps of Engineers and Navy SeeBees are great at building things. Aircraft carriers don't need to carry fighters and bombers, but can provide great floating hospitals that can move around the world. And some military technology can be used to fight fires or find survivors in the rubble of an earthquake.
 
enderland
enderland
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
Or even smaller things - finding missing people.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@enderland this is america - you could play 7 degrees of the military industrial complex and frankly probably not need more than 2 or 3 for any single person's job in this country.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@enderland That.
 
user55340
3:51 PM
> A proposal in the governor’s proposed state budget would mean guard towers at correctional facilities — including Oshkosh Correctional Institution — would be unmanned during the overnight night hours.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@ThomasOwens I don't like spending billions of dollars on combat ships that we use as floating hospitals. I know that the military does a lot of good
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@ThomasOwens our navy is plausibly one of the most beneficial portions of any military there is if you start talking non-combat - the security for supply-lines they provide really underpins the whole of modern globalization.
 
Ampt
Ampt
but I'm not sure that the amount we spend on it justifies what we're getting out of it
 
user41796
@Ampt What value do you place on stable and reliable international commerce?
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@Ampt That's true. Military spending is rife with spending on things that they don't want or need.
 
user41796
3:57 PM
As the US Navy (and other navies) have a significant role in controlling piracy in international shipping lanes
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
Anyway, I'm off to a meeting.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@ThomasOwens Thanks for the interesting discussion!
 
user41796
Since we're being meta - you can argue that a robust international economy provides a deterrent for those interested in waging war
 
Ampt
Ampt
@GlenH7 >and other navies
loooool
List of countries with warships
The following table lists numbers of warships in service, by type and by country, in order of largest to smallest tonnage by navy. == Guide to tableEdit == The table only counts warships that are commissioned (or equivalent) and active (not under repair). Ceremonial vessels, research vessels, supply vessels, training vessels, and unarmed icebreakers are not included. Surface vessels displacing less than 250 tonnes are not included, regardless of other characteristics. Armed submarines are included. Patrol vessels are included, even if they work for a force separate from the country's navy (for...
we make up close to half of the world's warships by tonnage
 
enderland
enderland
@Ampt the problem with this argument is that the USA has such a strong military that nearly no one is going to openly fight us, so the "benefit" is that there is a stable, "boring" world
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
4:01 PM
It's true we really are the vast vast majority of that effort, and also true a very small portion of our country accrues the vast majority of benefit from it; it benefits many the world over by raising entire nations slowly out of excessive poverty. But it's all too much to assign an overall consequence - good or bad - to. Causal relations are spread across time and huge touch points. Butterfly's in Japan are notoriously unethical creatures for the number of people killed by hurricanes.
 
enderland
enderland
the fundamental assumption the "we need less military" approach takes is that everyone in the world is just going to be nice and treat each other with respect if there is not a country/ally with a strong military
 
ratchet freak
ratchet freak
it's a vicious loop, once someone isn't nice others will arm themselves to defend
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@enderland that's a straw man though - "less" military is far too vaguely stated. I think most people would be out of their minds to think we couldn't provide the same benefits with less - it's defining what is an appropriate save and proportionment that really matters. People simplify it into "more" and "less" to push agendas, not meaningful discourse.
 
Ampt
Ampt
They don't do that even with a giant military
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@ratchetfreak an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind
 
Ampt
Ampt
4:03 PM
See: Cambodia, Vietnam, Korea, Palestine, etc.
 
ratchet freak
ratchet freak
@JimmyHoffa to bad we are too busy poking each other's eyes out to see that
 
Ampt
Ampt
Are you saying that there is some # of supercarriers at which these things wouldn't happen?
 
enderland
enderland
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@ratchetfreak you don't tell me what to do! Come here, you owe me one eye!
 
Ampt
Ampt
@JimmyHoffa Hammurabi would be proud.
@enderland I'm not saying we need to go from 600B -> 0 in a year
I'm saying that maybe we stop increasing the feckin budget every time someone at the DoD needs an 800 dollar toilet seat.
ohandthattoiletseatisactuallyacruisemissilewhoops
And don't even get me started on the TSA or the NSA
talk about literally burning your money
 
ratchet freak
ratchet freak
4:07 PM
NSA does a lot of numerics research
 
enderland
enderland
@Ampt the reality is its a complicated situation. the USA military does far more than "start wars in middle east for oil"
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Ampt you say "we" like there's any "we" with a damn say. Hello to all who live in urban areas where education levels are high and there's overwhelming (70%+) support for things like this. You don't count, sorry. No, really, you don't. You're all blendered together into a small section that has a miniscule ratio of representatives/votes vs Real America which has a significantly higher representatives/votes ratio. They have the power to sway enough representatives to get their way.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@ratchetfreak and spends a lot of money seeing which reddit threads I browse on the shitter for national security.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
so when you say "we" keep doing these things, you're referring to a "we" who doesn't live particularly near you or any of us etc.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@enderland Absolutely, but I think that maybe a few less wars in the middle east would be a good start
 
enderland
enderland
4:11 PM
@Ampt why?
 
Ampt
Ampt
@enderland because we aren't going to stop extremists from bombing us by continually bombing the entirety of the middle east back to the stone age.
8 mins ago, by Jimmy Hoffa
@ratchetfreak an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Ampt you misquoted me! I'll have your eye for that!
 
Ampt
Ampt
It doesn't help that we've overthrown many governments over there for ones more aligned with our political interests
 
enderland
enderland
@Ampt well, to play devil's advocate... how many attacks on US soil since 9/11 have happened from people coming from that region?
 
user41796
@enderland Boston is at least one
 
Ampt
Ampt
4:13 PM
@JimmyHoffa great, now I have coffee all over my keyboard and my coworkers think I'm incapable of taking a sip of coffee like anormal person
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@enderland as an engineer you must know that sample sizes for these things are so far below being that which anyone could analyze for trend or meaning- the only use of such numbers are to tweak people's emotions.
 
Ampt
Ampt
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
However - there are enough numbers of domestic terrorism to make proper analysis. But of course nobody talks much about those numbers because we aren't afraid of those terrorists..
 
Ampt
Ampt
probably not the most trustworthy source out there, but it illustrates that there have been attacks on US soil
 
enderland
enderland
@GlenH7 neither of those two were from that area
 
Ampt
Ampt
4:15 PM
@enderland they were just influenced by people from that area, which doesn't count, right?
 
enderland
enderland
I'm simply stating that, while there perhaps were other consequences, America has not suffered a similarly cohesive attack since 9/11 originating from the Middle East
 
Ampt
Ampt
Ok, lets put this another way. What if some group blew up your parents house
you don't live there
but you may want to get revenge on those who blew it up
does that not make your revenge, and the original bombing connected?
 
user41796
The terrorist style of warfare is guerrilla warfare. It doesn't necessarily rely upon large campaigns. It's an assault of a thousand little cuts until victory is obtained.
 
Ampt
Ampt
and its modernized guerilla warfare
If you thought the Viet Cong were hard to beat...
 
enderland
enderland
my point is simply that since 9/11, coordinated and large-scale attacks on the USA have not happened (fortunately). whether that's correlation, causation, or otherwise - it's not really something we can ever know (which is why this sort of discussion is somewhat pointless, if the wars in the Middle East "worked" we'll never know...)
would there have been more had the wars there not happened? who knows
there clearly are ripple effect consequences
 
Ampt
Ampt
4:21 PM
@enderland they didn't really happen before though, either, right?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@enderland fucking Japanese Butterflies
 
Ampt
Ampt
I mean when you look at foreign terrorist attacks on US soil, the sample size is pretty small, and the 9/11 attacks are an extreme outlier
 
enderland
enderland
@Ampt well, both world trade center attacks for starters..
we can opine as to whether there would have been followup 9/11 like attacks had the USA did nothing, however it seems quite likely 9/11 would not have been "it" had the USA not done anything
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Ampt depends on your definition on these things. There was the bombing of the naval ship. There's many faceted reasons for things as such. Throughout the 90's the region that radicalized for 9/11 was recovering(ish) from a long running war with Russia.. they obviously weren't going to organize large assaults against us while that war was going on, or immediately aftewards. We weren't really on their radar until we participated in that conflict.
 
Ampt
Ampt
the boston bombing and the 93 attack seem pretty similair
 
enderland
enderland
4:24 PM
@Ampt the difference is the boston bombing were basically Americans. both WTC attacks were from those who effectively came specifically for that reason
again, I'm simply stating, attacks on US soil originating from those in the Middle East
I'm not saying, "war in middle east will stop 100% of all terrorism in USA!" (which seems to be what you are arguing against ?)
 
Ampt
Ampt
and I think that that's a preposterous limitation
the whole point of modern terrorism is that they have no country, they don't operate out of one area
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
^-- this is something that is so blatantly obvious but kills me how the news glosses over
 
enderland
enderland
Also, interestingly, the Boston folks were only in the USA because the USSR was basically persecuting the CRAP out of Chechnya
 
Ampt
Ampt
so yeah, no more attacks have come from that area, but it's likely they never would have. The terrorists are already here with their ideas and their methods
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
all of this "Go destroy ISIS with a war!" talk just has me dumb founded because you're not talking about a group of people in one place. They're a hardly-organized group of angry people the world over with little tying them together beyond communications networks and capital transfers
 
Ampt
Ampt
4:27 PM
some of them are just plain crazy, I'll give you that
 
Duga
Duga
Oh, u know, i think that programmers may know something about it, because it indirectly associated with Linux systems. But of course this site is more about the code and algorithms. Prompt, in what a resource I can duplicate my question? — Tom Sawyer 40 secs ago
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Ampt like that wanker in the springs the other day.
 
Ampt
Ampt
but I think that some of them are motivated by what we (the western world) have done with their are (the middle east) over the past 80 years.
 
enderland
enderland
@JimmyHoffa well, it's also a matter of making it really difficult for an organization to exist - having the ability to have an entire country to train, organize, fund, etc might not be required but it sure makes things easier
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@enderland but they don't have that - so what the hell are we supposed to do?
 
Ampt
Ampt
4:29 PM
"Training remotely is hard" says the guy on StackExchange :P
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
fucking snow.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@Telastyn where are you located?
 
enderland
enderland
@JimmyHoffa ISIS controls a large part of Iraq right now
 
Ampt
Ampt
I want more please
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
MSP
 
user55340
4:30 PM
You're just mad we kept the axe.
 
enderland
enderland
@Ampt yeah, the Middle East is a bastion of peace and friendly nations right now (or historically), they would totally get along just fine without any external influence... :P
 
Ampt
Ampt
@enderland 100% concede to that point as well. But they are that way partially because of what we've done (and what we haven't done)
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Ampt that's a pretty strong stretch. Be very careful attributing reason to these people. Many of them are participating in ISIS as slaves against their will. Others are participating because they're crazy. Others see it the same way televangelists see religion: Money and power over others. Trying to attribute reason beyond immediate and current lack of opportunity is kind of weak.
 
enderland
enderland
@Ampt who knows. That region is a complete trainwreck of religious holy wars (literally), and not even just between Muslims and non-Muslims either
 
Ampt
Ampt
@JimmyHoffa ok, I'll take that back and replace it with this: We've effectively toppled governments that would be better for stability in the middle east in favor of those more willing to bend over backwards to our desires.
which has created a power vacuum that has let a lot of these groups grow
you're absolutely right, they are crazy
 
enderland
enderland
4:34 PM
I think that's part of the problem, too, approaching this from a purely rational perspective... gets you nearly nowhere meaningful
 
user55340
Pardon my fatalism, but sectarian violence was getting pent up for some time. It was a question of when and how it would explode - not if.
 
enderland
enderland
because the paradigm of their worldview is so dramatically different
 
user55340
One but I read is that they are acting out their equivalent of Revelations and looking for a battle with Rome ( c. 600 AD)
 
Ampt
Ampt
I think holy war is a scapegoat
not just in the sense that people are using religion to further their own ends, but it's also easy to say "It's just holy war, it was inevitable"
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@enderland I think part of the problem is that assumption: People apply logics they're familiar with to it, or disclaim logic as a useful approach. The reality is they have their own rationales that must be understood and analyzed. This is why ISIS is so proficient in radicalizing people; they understand the lives, perspectives, and world views of the people.
 
user55340
4:39 PM
It is one attempt at understanding the motives and trying to predict what their next actions will be.
 
enderland
enderland
@JimmyHoffa people like feeling important, or part of a cause, or part of something "bigger" and ISIS gives them that exact opportunity
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@enderland this is a part of it sure, but there's more to it than that. Either which way, trying to just disclaim them as a group of people without any set of logical deductions playing into their decisions is neither accurate nor useful unless your overall goal is to dissuade meaningful discourse (which is a great many people's goal from all sides of the political spectrum)
 
user55340
(Aside, I will point out that part of the extreme evangelical Cristian support of Israel is that it is seen as a necessary condition for the rapture... Eschatology can make people do odd things)
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
> “Reason requires a high degree of discipline, of concentration; impression is easier. Reason pushes the viewer back, it assaults him, it demands that he agree or disagree; impression can envelop him, invite him in, without making an intellectual demand…. When we argue with him, we… seek to engage his intellect…. The emotions are more easily roused, closer to the surface, more malleable….”
@Ampt you clearly haven't worked around people who are of a certain bent rather common in America; holy war is what many here want..
for a lot of folks, The Crusades have some kind of strange romantic glow of good old times full of glory to be earned..
 
enderland
enderland
@Telastyn speaking of... we have freezing rain now and a winter weather advisory which basically says, "roads will turn to ice, don't die have fun" for the next day and a half...
 
Telastyn
Telastyn
4:49 PM
yeh :/
 
user55340
Winter: station wagons are not meant to be toboggans.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
I blame this partially on our horrid history education. Spent time with my 17 year old nephew the other week and found out he thought the Civil War was fought against the british or the indians but wasn't sure why, and thought we won the Vietnam war.. When people don't know what the historical precedents are for things like holy wars et al, it's no surprise they they might just think it sounds like a great way to spread the good life decisions they've had to aid others.
> Winternet: station wagons now used for tobloggans. More from the toblogosphere at 11.
 
enderland
enderland
@MichaelT I drive a station wagon. currently WFH so I don't die tonight driving sliding home
 
overexchange
overexchange
@JimmyHoffa spread-radius | the radius to spread is the distance from solid color A to solid color A and 10px spreading with same shadow color. Is that correct?
 
user55340
 
user55340
4:59 PM
> With financial help from the Class of 1933, Hoofers built a new toboggan slide on the slope running from Observatory Drive down to Lake Mendota. The original slide, built around 1886, was replaced in 1911 by a wooden run 600 feet long and 3 feet wide. The new slide, modeled after slides in Canada, was the first concrete chute in this country. The operation included safety gates, water lines, and an automatic toboggan release.
 
user55340
> Despite these “safety” features, the slide was lax by today’s standards. A wooden bridge spanning the lake path had to be removed when the slide was in use.
Of course the path itself was never closed, even when the slide was in use; pedestrians simply had to be wary of sleds hurtling toward them at the rate of 60 miles per hour.
 
overexchange
overexchange
Why window['NaN'] == window['Nan'] is false?
 
user55340
Because JavaScript is insane and == is bad.
 
overexchange
overexchange
ok
 
user55340
Which may or may not be the problem there.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
5:01 PM
> The first toblogosphere was constructed in 1886 at UW in Madison, WI. The initial post was an article about the sensation of frost bite while wearing 6 layers of goats wool.
 
user55340
 
overexchange
overexchange
In this syntax typeof(5) == Number, Is typeof not a property of a window object?
Number is a keyword in JS
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
> The second post to the first toblogosphere was a simple statement of "I was the first to respond, on this our toblosphere. The first! I was the first!", followed quickly by a posting of a glass pane chemically altered to hold a depiction of a breaded pastry sitting next to a glass or warm chocolate goats milk.
 
user55340
@overexchange pull it up in a debugger. Check with the SO JavaScript room.
 
amon
amon
@overexchange NaN is equal to no value, not even itself. That's part of its perfectly sensible definition. Of course, Nan with a small n does not exist.
 
user55340
5:16 PM
You imply some sense in JavaScript.
 
user55340
I believe that a shot or two of absinthe helps the JavaScript debugging process substantially.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT funny, that's what everyone else says about perl... ;)
 
user55340
 
user55340
Not quite a green fairy.
 
amon
amon
Nah, Perl monks drink beer. They even have their own Perl brew.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
5:22 PM
@MichaelT Japanese Butterfly! Kill it before it kills us all!!
 
user55340
Perl 6
Perl 6 is a member of the Perl family of programming languages. It is still in development as a specification. While historically several interpreter and compiler implementations were being written, today only the Rakudo Perl implementation is in active development. It is introducing elements of many modern and historical languages. Compatibility with Perl 5 is not a goal, though a compatibility mode is part of the specification. The design process for Perl 6 began in 2000. In February 2015 a post on The Perl Foundation blog stated that "The Perl6 team will attempt to get a development release...
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
This guy they just hired completed the Navy Fighter Weapons School. Should I go up to him and ask him if he feels the need?
 
user55340
@ThomasOwens I read of a Top Gun drinking game. Take a drink each time something "bad ass" or "gay" (not my wording) happens. Try not to get alcohol poising while playing volleyball.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@MichaelT Is a drink a complete drink (one shot, one bottle of beer) or a sip from a drink?
 
user55340
The implication in the post was it doesn't matter which you use. Complete or shots would likely kill you though.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
5:37 PM
@MichaelT It would probably be at least two bottles.
Of liquor, that is.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT ...never seen the movie.
 
user55340
Should test with Mountain Dew first.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@JimmyHoffa Fix that.
 
user55340
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@MichaelT If I had YouTube and alcohol at work, I'd probably be incredibly drunk or dead.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
5:40 PM
@ThomasOwens isn't it just Days of Thunder in the air?
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@JimmyHoffa No idea. But Tom Cruise is in both of them.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
6:05 PM
@ThomasOwens so you haven't seen Days of Thunder? And you give me shit for not seeing Top Gun..
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@JimmyHoffa Planes and Kenny Loggins are so much cooler than NASCAR.
Like, infinitely cooler.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
6:18 PM
The KonMari method of organizing your home is simply an application of 5S. So far, I've only seen one blog post that mentions this. And it happened to be written because the author was talking with a safety engineer.
 
Ampt
Ampt
6:30 PM
@ThomasOwens The need for what
Strife in the middle east?
Unmanned weapon platforms?
A vastly superior navy?
we kind of hit a lot of topics haha
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@Ampt ...speed. The need for speed.
You haven't seen Top Gun either?
 
Ampt
Ampt
are you kidding? Of course I have
who could forget tom cruise being tom cruise in tom cruise, the movie.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@Ampt OK. Good, good.
@Ampt I thought that was the Mission: Impossible movies.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@ThomasOwens That's just Top Gun: Secret Agent
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
True.
BTW, are they still making Top Gun II?
Val Kilmer said he would be returning as Ice Man in the sequel.
 
Ampt
Ampt
6:34 PM
dude that would be so cool
but who would they be shooting at?
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
It's about drones and 5th generation fighters.
 
Ampt
Ampt
It's not like the terrorists have Jets
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
It would be about drone pilots?
 
Ampt
Ampt
So it's a fat Val Kilmer sitting in a racing chair shooting insurgents while eating cheetos?
they vye for the high score of the month
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
lol
 
psr
psr
6:35 PM
@JimmyHoffa I advise keeping it that way. I would unsee it if I could.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@ThomasOwens Instead of volleyball, they perform government mandated stretches in their PT belts
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@psr ಠ_ಠ
 
Ampt
Ampt
@psr How unpatriotic. Someone's a red terrorist!
 
user114359
6:51 PM
 
user114359
Yay cyber monday!
 
Lightness Races in Orbit
Lightness Races in Orbit
 
enderland
enderland
> During filming, director Tony Scott wanted to shoot aircraft landing and taking off, back-lit by the sun. During one particular filming sequence, the ship's commanding officer changed the ship's course, thus changing the light. When Scott asked if they could continue on their previous course and speed, he was informed by the commander that it cost $25,000 to turn the ship, and to continue on course.

Scott wrote the carrier's captain a $25,000 check so that the ship could be turned and he could continue shooting for another five minutes
 
Ampt
Ampt
probably cost a hell of a lot more than 25k
guy got a real deal there
 
user114359
what they don't tell you is when you are moving an aircraft carrier with its 2+ nuclear reactors it is expensive even if you don't turn the thing.
 
Ampt
Ampt
7:00 PM
@Snowman Shhhhh the captain got 25k out of it
of course, the fact that they never refuel means it gets very good mileage
apparently it costs ~ 7Million a day to operate a carrier strike group
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@enderland I do hope he made the check out to the Navy and not the ship's captain.
 
user114359
and I guess it was shot aboard the USS Enterprise, which had four nuclear reactors. For some reason I thought it was shot aboard a different carrier and they just called it the Enterprise.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@Ampt Well, aren't there like 4000 people on an aircraft carrier alone? That's quite bit of salaries + benefits for one ship in the group for 24 hours.
@Snowman Nope. In Star Trek IV, the USS Ranger stood in for the USS Enterprise.
 
Ampt
Ampt
that's.... 300k an hour, or 5K a minute
holy shit, they captain was pretty damn close.
 
user114359
@ThomasOwens I thought we were talking about Top Gun, which is where @enderland's quote was from, that movie's WP article?
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
7:03 PM
@Snowman We were. The Ranger is also in Top Gun, I think.
The Ranger and the Enterprise were often filmed on for aircraft carriers in movies in the late 80s and 90s.
 
enderland
enderland
@Ampt lol
 
user114359
That section of the article also mentions they used footage of normal carrier operations and edited what they could, and paid $7,800 per hour when they needed flybys and other non-standard footage.
 
Ampt
Ampt
@enderland gotta appreciate a man who knows his shit.
 
enderland
enderland
@Ampt only the first few had 8, I believe Nimitz class only had 2
which were the "mainstay" nuclear carriers
 
user114359
@Ampt ah, I thought it had four, with Nimitz-class carriers having two.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
7:06 PM
Ah. Looks like some interior footage from Top Gun was on the Ranger. But the Enterprise was the one that was used for takeoff and landing footage.
 
user114359
Navy tends to alternate. Nimitz-class are the mainstay with 8+ carriers. USS Enterprise was the previous class but only had one ship, replaced by the USS Reagan which will likely be another "class of one"
 
user114359
Then the next one will be a larger carrier class replacing the Nimitz-class carriers. Assuming my memory serves correct since I don't feel like reading up on it all again
 
user114359
And I was in the USAF, not USN :-P
 
user114359
No matter what the Navy does, all I see is a whole lot of tax money going to blowing up huts in the middle east and killing pirates harassing our civilian ships.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
using "REST" API that violates HTTP query string rules...brain...explodings...kerbang..
 
Ampt
Ampt
7:12 PM
@JimmyHoffa We finally got him boys. Time to go home.
 
user114359
What question?
 
enderland
enderland
@Snowman enterprise had 8, subsequent CVs just had 2
enderland loves naval history
 
psr
psr
7:31 PM
@JimmyHoffa Things are much more restful after your brain explodes.
 
Lightness Races in Orbit
Lightness Races in Orbit
@enderland Naval history, or USA naval history?
 
user114359
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I don't know about him, but I like USA military history in general. We've created enough of it, given that we spend more on our military than the next eight most expensive militaries in the world.
 
user55340
BSD games : sail
 
user55340
 
user55340
(I like the wooden ships & iron men period)
 
user55340
7:36 PM
Wooden Ships and Iron Men
Wooden Ships and Iron Men is a naval board wargame in which the players simulate combat by sailing ships of the late 18th and early 19th centuries. The game was originally published by Battleline Publications in 1974 and republished by Avalon Hill in 1975, and is known as the definitive simulation of the period. The game is played on a hex board with rectangular cardboard counters representing ships and long enough to cover two hexes, which represents the ship's orientation. Players write down their planned moves at the beginning of each turn, then move simultaneously (possibly entangling their...
 
Lightness Races in Orbit
Lightness Races in Orbit
@Snowman yeah
 
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