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12:29 AM
0
Q: Can Visual Studio 2015 locals/watch/auto window be configured to reflect inheritance like previous versions did?

whatsisnameIn older versions of VS, the locals/watch/autos/etc windows would reflect the inheritance tree of whatever you were looking at: This had the benefit that you would only see up front the locally added variables to whatever you were dealing with, which is what I'm interested in nearly always. ...

 
user41796
That's a good question. I haven't heard any mention yet of that change within the debugger. Everyone is focusing on the ability to debug lambda expressions and write lambda expressions in the intermediate window.
 
I don't understand how anyone thought making that the seemingly only behavior was a good idea
I want to see a list of all base class members approximately never, I imagine that's the same for most pepole
 
user41796
Same here
 
user41796
I think a lot of their design decisions are still driven by project managers and not by people with a clue.
 
well, the VS2008-2010 years were pretty great, hopefully this isn't an instance of "all good things must come to an end"
 
user41796
12:35 AM
I think they let up in some areas because of improvements in others. I mean, seriously, being able to write linq expressions in the intermediate or variable watch windows is pretty freaking cool
 
user41796
And they've really upped things with intellitest and intellitrace
 
well, this change in particular is one that was actively made worse
 
user41796
I'd agree with that. Hopefully there is a way to change it
 
and it would at least be tolerable if I could jump to whatever by typing, but instead it tries to edit the value of whatever I clicked on
 
user41796
12:50 AM
@MichaelT - I think you missed this gem that reinforces why fast closes are important for off-topic questions. programmers.stackexchange.com/a/302973/53019
 
user41796
And I already called myself out on my original comment to that person. Since corrected.
 
user55340
Ok... so if you're going to be that way about it...
 
user55340
 
2:33 AM
@MichaelT 404 removed by author. Oops.
 
@Ampt so try harder! @Ixrec got 10k in like 2 and a half months or something, quit being a weenie
Have you found the CI suite yet?
 
@JimmyHoffa s/weenie/lazy/
@JimmyHoffa I did. Then I deleted it. Ain't nobody got time fo that
 
I'm pretty far in antichamber
I think
I got the yellow gun I think it is
 
is that after the green one?
 
yep
 
2:41 AM
yeah I think that's pretty far
 
trying to get the red one now but it's tricky as crap at this point
 
I've been shooting mutants in fallout
less tricky, more shooting.
 
I should do that sometime, I have 3 and new vegas but played 3 a good bit and whenever I load it I see an inventory full of crap with no idea where I am or what any of it does or what to do
so I close it until next time I feel like wondering how confusing it'll be
 
been really good so far
very different
 
latest one?
 
2:42 AM
yeah
 
steam stream is pretty great, my laptop is now a game machine because of it which is fun
 
much less emphasis on "here's 293489 things you may need in the next 30 years"
everything breaks down into components you can use to make shit you actually need
 
ah yeah, part of my problem is I'm a total horder in those games and I have no idea what my strategy was when I played it; I would just restart but the beginning segment inside the thing where the game is on rails takes wayyy too long so I don't want to restart
 
there is like 5 minutes of rails in this one
if that
 
I kind of burned out on World of Warships
 
2:45 AM
the grind in that game is real
 
yeah, exactly
Fortunately you can have a lot of fun easily
The lack of teamplay is what makes it not fun for me
 
shoot teammates
if theres only one member, it's all teamwork right?
 
I watched that today, that game is ridiculous sometimes (you might enjoy that quick thing)
@Ampt teamkillers turn pink and are obvious to the next team
 
gah all of these dumbass legislators talking about how we need to weaken encryption should put their money where their mouth is: You want to make encryption weak? Tattoo your bank account, social security, drivers license, and credit card numbers on your forehead for everyone to use as they see fit. The average modern person understands that his payments using electronic devices must be secured because everyone's credit card number is stolen every 3 months; average normal people know this stuff
Yet our legislators are so out of touch with reality that they think encryption is some secret weapon spies use to blow bombs up or something. Gahh. So dumb.
Not to mention the fact that the whole idea is stupid, making a mathematics equation illegal?? You can't just create a mathematical equation, post it all over the internet, teach it to countless university students across the world for years, and then say "Let's just whipe that away"
 
@enderland and here I thought I might have had you :P
 
3:07 AM
@MichaelT I need to grab that subway game
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa Mini Metro? Yep.
 
but until then, kickin' it old school with a little KOTOR 2...
@MichaelT how much does playing it feel like playing Sim City?
 
user55340
Not at all.
 
user55340
Completely different game.
 
I just remember Sim City having a significant portion of the game play being focused on proper travel route layouts
 
user55340
 
user55340
There's a "first level" version of it in flash / unity...
 
ah
The more I use it, the more I really love steam big picture
It's browser has tabs
 
user55340
Btw, I've got coupons for Endless Space that expire this January... something to keep in mind for the steam sale.
 
and all I do on my computer is basically browse and use tabs. Plus when you launch a game from big picture - if you bring up steam inside, it has the web browser with all your tabs there
 
user55340
(had some last year too... with a 75% off in steam sale, +50% off coupon, Endless Space was very cheap)
 
user55340
3:14 AM
and its a good game.
 
plus it plays that minimetro thing which chrome barfed on
Yeah I got Endless Space off something
I like turne based so it's neat
I can't do RTS, it's fun at the first level or two but RTS just is a game style I have never ever been able to get the hang of
past level 2 they always beat me soundly
 
user55340
Also have full games for Civ V and Civ IV...
 
user55340
and two copies of Portal 2 now...
 
I think I gave away a copy of portal 2 or 2... somehow they keep showing up in my inventory...
they just get bundled with like every second game
 
user55340
I got the "opps, our steam controller doesn't work with macs yet - sorry" pack.
 
You should try nom nom galaxy
that's proper engineering testing
that would be fun I'd think, beat the hell out of ETL - writing JavaScript and Python tests
 
@JimmyHoffa yeah, I like Python the more I play with it
 
it's a good language
@MichaelT you bought a steam link?
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa Not yet. Need to get my TV down to this house before its something useful.
 
I been using the gamestream a lot lately since I got an nvidia shield.
@MichaelT but you bought one? Does your graphics card support GameStream or are you relying on the software level?
 
user55340
3:22 AM
The steam controller.
 
user55340
 
@MichaelT You only bought the controller?
 
user55340
I wanted a good controller for the mac, so I ordered that one... but it doesn't work with the mac yet
 
user55340
Yep.
 
user55340
See, my computer monitor is larger than my TV.
 
user55340
3:23 AM
And a better picture.
 
ah, cool. Yeah lots of games support them pretty well these days since Steam has spent a couple few years pushing pc couch gaming
 
user55340
 
user55340
^^ Fricking huge screen.
 
@MichaelT I just picked up a 27" 2560x1440 monitor with G-Sync
 
user55340
3:24 AM
(I do dual monitor instead)
 
@JimmyHoffa jealous
 
@MichaelT does your mac have a gaming card?
 
user55340
I've also got the monitor from the previous generation.
 
user55340
"Gaming card"?
 
gaming capable graphics card
 
3:25 AM
@JimmyHoffa my mac has a good graphics card
 

Video card shadow play

Nov 6 at 21:32, 2 minutes total – 4 messages, 2 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked 4 mins ago by Jimmy Hoffa

crap
 
user55340
 
@MichaelT you might not want to show your serial number :P though I suppose it doesn't really matter if it's a 2009 model?
 
@MichaelT ah cool
 
user55340
@enderland Nah... not too much. Going to get a coffee pot some time next year.
 
3:27 AM
@enderland ah too bad. If you had shadow play you could ponder the use of a steamlink
 
user55340
 
user55340
^^ Coffee pot.
 
@JimmyHoffa I use Parallels when I do World of Warships in Windows, it works nicely (plays with max graphics settings)
 
user55340
 
3:28 AM
@enderland steamlink is a different purpose - making your gaming remoteable to a tv or otherwise
 
@JimmyHoffa ahhh. we don't have a tv :P
 
user55340
I've got the NAS now (running 8tb raid 10) for all my various stuff.
 
@MichaelT for the life of me I don't understand the mac thing... is the circular design supposed to surve a purpose other than to make sure people feel different/better than others?
 
@JimmyHoffa yes
 
@MichaelT if I knew how to use a mac - would I be able to make it just as performant and effective as a windows machine? Because for the life of me I've never been able to get one to; but so many people I know are smart capable people swear by them...
 
user55340
3:34 AM
The computer is mounted on panels inside for a larger cooling surface area.
 
user55340
 
@MichaelT I figured it might be something like that. Still though
perhaps I just need to commit to learning to use a mac
I have one at work, I just use the windows bootstrap of it
 
I like using a mac over windows, but I think both are tools you use depending on your needs
 
everytime I try to use one, I found it so counterintuitive
 
user55340
The circular aspect of it is just a clean footprint (and yes, there's a bit of Jobs minimalistic aesthetic at work there) around that frame.
 
3:36 AM
there are things about mac os which drive me nuts, just as with windows
@MichaelT those new mac pro graphics cards support 3x 5k displays? wowza
 
user55340
@enderland ever price out how much that would cost?
 
@MichaelT oh, is that an upgraded graphics card? it looked like that's all mac pros
so "only" $3k :)
 
user55340
@enderland I was more hinting at the cost of the displays themselves.
 
@MichaelT oh, a how about... "a lot" :)
 
user55340
3:39 AM
Not to mention the desk space
 
user55340
The key, is to not have a desk... mwelab.com/index.php/en/products/emperor-1510
 
@MichaelT I had suggested that to our ergonomics person once as a good ergo chair. didn't get any traction unfortunately
 
user55340
@enderland because its not good enough. Need to go with the next model: mwelab.com/index.php/en/products/emperor-LX
 
user55340
 
user55340
MSRP: $21,500 US
 
user55340
3:44 AM
*Monitors and computer sold separately.
 
that was... not quite his reason for rejecting it haha
 
4:03 AM
@MichaelT as much as it's really a great idea to buy one of those for each of your programmers, the reality is without proper arm support for a keyboard the ergonomics go to shit
same reason keyboard trays have gone the way of the dodo, nobody finds those comfortable
 
 
5 hours later…
9:21 AM
This type question is considered off topic for SO. It might be more appropriate over on Programmers. — Nanhydrin 39 secs ago
@Nanhydrin No, it would be closed as well on PSE. — X.L.Ant 32 secs ago
 
10:16 AM
I think, this should belongs to programmers.stackexchange.comAnoop Joshi 15 secs ago
 
 
2 hours later…
12:06 PM
Wondering what to do when I just found out my micromanaging PM was stating that one of the benefits of Scrum is that standup puts peer pressure and shame to motivate people to work harder
I was promoted so I don't report to him anymore, but I still have to work with him... and I honestly despise him and everything he stands for
Just don't know how to work with such a morally bankrupt person
I always suspected he was a manipulator, but I didn't realize quite how sociopathic he truly was
I realize now that I am in these meetings with higher ups and executives that the moral bankruptcy extends to the tippy top
It has become clear to me that nobody in charge cares about performance quite so much as they care about control
It is not about quality, or performance, or even money. They just like control and they like their team to be a bunch of work horses. Meanwhile what few Unicorns exist are leaving and they couldn't care less, in fact they probably think it is a good thing because they can't tell the difference between a unicorn and a work horse
To them a unicorn is just a whiny work horse with a horn on his head
It is no wonder that 80% of the project teams are staff augmentation and offshore. The only people left are architects, PM's and H1B's. The H1B's have no choice but to be abused
And what bothers me more than ANYTHING else right now, is that with as hollow as the organization has become, my sense of justice cannot reconcile the fact that this arrangement is actually paying off for them and the company is successful regardless
So in my mind I really feel that IT just doesn't have as much value to the business that I have always believed it has. Otherwise the company would struggle but it carries along making massive profits.
This is why I regret this career choice. Probably should have become a doctor.
 
12:43 PM
@maple_shaft Dude, you should write a book. It would be the modern version of Death March. I'm serious - it sounds like your current company is the embodiment of everything that is wrong in software development. I know that there's no perfect company or team, but this is the perfect case study in how not to run an organization.
 
1:35 PM
@maple_shaft I had the same thought when I was first introduced to scrum. Well, almost the same though. It only has that affect on people who do very little work and try to hide that fact. None of my favourite colleagues or myself have ever found it to be shaming... but that's because we had nothing to be ashamed about.
@maple_shaft yes, the sad thing is that that kind of approach does seem to work. Which is why I wanted to set up my own little software contracting house so I could provide an alternate and employee-friendly business model.
@maple_shaft Which industry is your company in?
 
1:53 PM
Happy Coffee Day
@maple_shaft duh, why do you think managerial types like it? Many of them believe this- I've heard it touted explicitly more than once.
@maple_shaft haha yeah, every time I hear someone say "In this industry you can't mess up, companies that make mistakes or do things wrong just don't survive! You have to put in 150% and be the best A++ rockstar or else the whole company will die!" and other such nonsense I'm just hearing "I have no idea how businesses work!? This statement makes me sound knowledgeable and more succesful than others! I've never worked in a single organization that wasn't homogenously full of people exactly like me!
I've heard such statements so often and it just indicates whoever's saying it hasn't seen much variety in their career
@ThomasOwens untrue; they are making money hand over fist! How can their business decisions be bad when they get to play king of all that they see which is quite fun, get paid enough money to choke a rhino, and the company is still profiting so hard it's giving stock tickers chub
@MetaFight perhaps you never were in a scrum where the PM openly mocked and shamed people? I've seen it; it's just depressing how childish adults can be.
 
@JimmyHoffa no, I've never seen that. That's horrible.
 
@MetaFight for some this type of behaviour is their understanding of professionalism: Forcing work execution (productivitiy!) for the benefit of their employee (loyalty!) with all the skills they've gathered (experience!) and tools they can identify (creativity!) . They're productive employees, highly loyal to their organization, applying their superb level of experience creatively. Professionalism.
 
@JimmyHoffa Wasn't Enron making money hand over fist until the scandal broke?
 
brb washing the vomit out of my brainpan.
 
0
Q: Where to describe architectural problems?

BЈовићI joined the middle of a middle size project, which runs already for several years. One of problems is that the document describing the architecture was never written. Now I was assigned a task to write the architectue description. During the time I working on this project, I gathered all inform...

 
2:08 PM
@MetaFight Finance
 
@ThomasOwens I worked for an employer who was sued by the AG of multiple states across the country. They settled out of court, paid fines less than the money they made with their immoral activities, and continued profiting like it was their sole purpose.
 
@JimmyHoffa That would drive me to quit.
 
oh and the activities they were sued for? Illegal foreclosures on thousands of people. They paid a fine. Did the people pushed out of their houses get their houses back? Hah. But they paid...a fine.
 
@JimmyHoffa this is exactly why I make a point of swearing casually at work. I want people to understand that it's part of my daily language and that they shouldn't be offended. Then, I can use it to tell people like those asshole PMs to fuck off and I haven't crossed a line :)
 
@ThomasOwens Nice link. I feel inspired to write an answer
 
2:10 PM
I'm writing an answer, too. It's actually an interesting question.
 
@maple_shaft ah, well, I see.
 
Answered.
 
@ThomasOwens you wouldn't stick around for the customary 2 years? Job hopper! What a dumbass stigma that is..
@RobertHarvey @MichaelT @ThomasOwens @GlenH7 @Ampt RE: Fonts - github.com/chrissimpkins/codeface
@ThomasOwens I would like to see an example in the answer of how you would outline and organize it to communicate intended vs. actual design
 
2:31 PM
@JimmyHoffa I wouldn't communicate intended.
I would communicate as-built. Maybe a footnote or a paragraph outlining known issues in the appropriate section of the document.
 
@ThomasOwens then -1 on you; intentions should be documented to make deviations clear
 
@JimmyHoffa How do you know what the intention was, though? Maybe was done that way for a reason.
 
intentions layout direction, when they'd not clearly communicated and known technical debt gets worse and no remediation ever occurs
@ThomasOwens that's my point: Intentions should be communicated/documented so you can know right alongside of actual
 
@JimmyHoffa But that didn't happen.
The decision was made long ago to do something a certain way. You can't answer why it was today. You can just identify that it deviates from the normal.
 
@ThomasOwens apparently it did because he said explicitly that there are deviations from the intentions. Perhaps someone communicated intent verbally but the document wasn't there
 
2:34 PM
If you have the information as to why, then it should be present.
 
@ThomasOwens that's not true at all, if someone's still around who was there when the decision was made, then you absolutely can answer why. I've used those why's that I've tracked over years on software products numerous times to explain and organize future work. They're important; very important.
@ThomasOwens his entire question was "how do I document the intentions vs the actual which deviated from intent?"
 
The way I see it, it's like someone uses something that looks like an Adapter pattern but it's different. You can say "this looks like an Adapter pattern, but it's different because X, Y, and Z".
@JimmyHoffa Once you have a system, the intentions don't matter as much.
 
@ThomasOwens wrong! Absolutely wrong!
 
It's bonus information.
 
The why of deviations is ever so important because I've seen those why's disappear a year later and then we're left moving forward on that poorly kludged mistake without valid reason any longer unless someone like me says "Hey, we did this for X reason which is no longer valid, we can go back to the intent!"
 
2:36 PM
@JimmyHoffa From what I can tell, the why isn't available anymore.
 
@ThomasOwens I just disagree. I think the intent is more important than the actual - the actual is documented by the code, the only purpose of documentation beyond the code is to communicate plans and a mindset for future work.
> For example, the GUI was supposed to be a thin layer, without business logic. That is what I was told. The implementation contains lots of logic.
 
If you know what the intent was, then great. Put it in the document. But you don't always know the intent. I routinely work with code written 10 years ago by people no longer with the company. I couldn't tell you why things are they way they are, just what they are.
 
I think you misconstrued his question which is asking about how to outline and communicate the intent of the architecture vs. the actual implementation of it: Should they be in the same document, separate documents, etc? I don't see an answer to that question clearly defined here. — Jimmy Hoffa 11 secs ago
@ThomasOwens I know you don't, but that guys question was about he does have it, and what does he do with it? I don't think you answered that. Your answer is just a boiler plate about how to document architecture and why and how that documentation works with other tools available
 
> If there are oddities in the architecture, then this document should call out those oddities and explain them as much as possible to a reader.
I go on to say that you should also move them out of the document into your task tracking tool.
 
I flagged this as off-topic. See stackoverflow.com/help/on-topic for more information. You could try posting this on programmers.stackexchange.com. Software licensing is on-topic there. — blcook223 16 secs ago
 
2:40 PM
@ThomasOwens I don't know... I'm just not sold on the answer as written. Meh.
 
@JimmyHoffa Maybe I need to revise the answer. His edits do add more detail.
I wish answerers got notified whenever a question was edited.
 
@JimmyHoffa that's why I was asking my question there, what is the problem here
 
@ThomasOwens agreed!
 
@ThomasOwens but that implies you care about your answer and not just the gimmetehrepz! :)
 
@enderland yeah, I immediately saw the answer to be one way where @ThomasOwens take away was a bit different I believe. His edits do clarify for sure.
 
2:43 PM
1
A: Where to describe architectural problems?

maple_shaftWhen formalizing the architecture of the system it is important that you understand not only the value behind what the architecture will bring to the table, but also to understand and appreciate what it should be. The primary goals of Software or Technical Architecture is to identify the Non-Fun...

@JimmyHoffa and @ThomasOwens see above
 
@JimmyHoffa it wasn't clear (and still is somewhat fuzzy) if they want to write the actual architecture or the intended (not sure how you'd get that?) architecture
 
Architecure should always be declarative of how things should be
 
@enderland The answer is that the document needs to describe the actual architecture and design.
 
any deviation is a Risk
 
so, a VtC: primary opinion based question I was thinking about yesterday
other than semantics, what benefits for encapsulation does OO code offer over procedural code?
I get that it's far easier to do it with OO, but you can replicate many of the benefits of encapsulation even if you write scripts or very procedural code
 
2:49 PM
@enderland I read his question as he wants to write both and wants guidance on how to do both: Same doc? Separate doc? etc.
@ThomasOwens I am more on @maple_shaft with this - architecture is a high-minded goal - architecture is intent. Implementation is design attempting to meet that architecture. Design that contrasts that architecture should definitely be called out
 
I just revised my answer.
 
my boss is talking about giving me the title of "architect", perhaps I should be weighing in...ugh... I'll just go tell the guy to use a monad and be done with it.
 
@JimmyHoffa Maybe it's my definition of architecture. Architecture isn't a goal. It's a subset of the design decisions. Specifically, the decisions that are very hard to change.
What do you think of the revised answer, though?
 
@ThomasOwens you made clearer why you have this confusion in it; you're referring very much to design not *architecture.
> At the end of the day, a design document should serve as a guide to the code. If the document doesn't help a new developer understand the current state of the code base and how it is structured, than the document isn't useful.
and you point at the SDD which is a totally separate document from the SAD
 
@JimmyHoffa Not anymore it's not.
As of the 2009 rev of IEEE 1016.
 
3:01 PM
You describe an SDD perfectly and you're absolutely right, about an SDD
 
@enderland The main advantage of OOP in normal software development is namespacing and modularity since this allows us to divide a software system into loosely coupled subsystems. Those two properties are not unique to OOP (see: many functional languages), but many procedural languages lack namespacing (e.g. C) or even modules/abstract data types.
 
@amon so the namespacing is the main thing that prevents procedural languages from being "pseudo OO"? that makes sense, I was assuming you could do namespaces, etc
 
> An SDD is a work product depicting some design subject of interest. An SDD can be produced to capture one or more levels of concern with respect to its design subject. These levels are usually determined by the design methods in use of the life cycle context; they have names such as "architectural design", "logical design", or "physical design".
 
is this question more suitable for programmers.SE then codeReview...
0
Q: CRUD strongly typed data access

MathematicsI have a data access class which looks something like below, using CompanyX.DataAccess.CompanyXTableAdapters; namespace CompanyX.DataAccess { public class CompanyXDataAccess { #region Invoice public CompanyX.InvoiceDataTable GetInvoiceByID(int ID) { ...

 
@ThomasOwens like I said, you are spot on about SDD, but what he's asking about is SAD which is a separate document serving a different purpose more well described by @maple_shaft
 
3:04 PM
The only reason the IEEE still uses the term "Software Design Description" or "SDD" is "to retain compatibility with the terminology of its predecessor, IEEE Std 1016-1998".
From the 2009 rev:
> For example, software design description covers the following information items identified in ISO/IEC 15289:2006: high-level software design description, ... interface description, ... low-level software design description
 
@ThomasOwens you want to call it something other than "SDD" I don't really care, it's a document that I understand as SDD and totally separate from SAD
@ThomasOwens look at the architecture description though - it's a comprehensively different thing
 
@JimmyHoffa But the IEEE no longer recognizes a difference between architecture description and design description.
 
@ThomasOwens I just linked you to the architecture one which they recognize as of 2011
status: Active
 
Let me look. Because I'm looking at 1016-2009, and it's obsoleting architecture description.
Some of these things are exactly like an SDD. Except they replace "design" with "architecture".
 
actually that seems like it could be an ok question on the main site, the more I think about it...
 
3:08 PM
@ThomasOwens it's perhaps obsoleting a different type. Like I said, a design document speaks to implementation, an architecture document speaks to high level overarching goals and reasoning.
 
Did your standard supercede IEEE 1471?
It did...I think there's some weird circular reference thing happening.
Because 1016 takes 1471 and extends it from architecture through detail design in a single standard. 1016 is also still active. 1471 was replaced by 42010. So 1016 is based on something that has been replaced.
That's...not intuitive.
 
> 3.5
> architecture view
> work product expressing the architecture of a system from the perspective of specific system concerns
>
> 3.6
> architecture viewpoint
> work product establishing the conventions for the construction, interpretation and use of architecture views to frame specific system concerns
>
> 3.7
> concern
> system interest in a system relevant to one or more of its stakeholders
 
I'm just flipping through 42010. It very much lines up with 1016, but stays at a high level.
1016 uses "design view", "design viewpoint" and "concern" in the exact same way.
 
^-- it's about system concerns and relevant intent distinct from actual implementation
 
I think order matters here.
 
3:15 PM
> system fundamental concepts or properties of a system in its environment embodied in its elements, relationships, and in the principles of its design and evolution
I'll just be pedantic and say "principles" means not actual implementation, but intent
:D
 
Reading the standard you linked to, it doesn't appear to be geared for a system that already exists, though.
 
@ThomasOwens doesn't mean an existing system shouldn't have one. If you can construct the principles the design intended to meet as well as the principles currently agreeable to stakeholders for a system - with rationale as @maple_shaft described, it's a useful and valuable document for future work and extension of the current system, as well as for analyzing how the current system works regarding the high level concerns
 
@JimmyHoffa I guess I don't understand why you would have two separate documents for architecture and design.
 
@enderland The next things that OOP offers are bundling of data with operations on that data, and therefore polymorphism – while this actually increases the expressiveness of a language, they are less important in practice when contrasted with proper modules. The Modular Paradigm has not received the attention it deserves because it was quickly overshadowed by and conflated with the more general OO paradigm during the 80s and 90s.
 
@ThomasOwens they have explicitly different purposes; one outlines goals with reasons meeting those goals is good, one outlines reality with reasons goals weren't met - or how goals were met.
 
3:20 PM
@amon that's why I was intrigued by this. When I was reading last night it seemed most "why OO is good!" focuses on the encapsulation aspect, but less on the polymorphism, inheritance, interfaces, etc
 
"principles" of the design: It should be asynchronous because of X, Y, and Z value the system will get. Actual design: It's only synchronous because the 3rd party provider we relied on didn't give facilities for it. A year later the 3rd party provider gives the facilities for it and now you can remediate for benefits X, Y, and Z
 
@JimmyHoffa That makes sense. But if you have a living document, then the document evolves over time. Before you have code, your document describes your goals. Clearly, you need to make some architectural/design (A/D) decisions before you write code. You would capture these in some format. Then you start getting into more and more detail and writing code. Your document evolves.
@JimmyHoffa I understand that. To me, though, it would still be one document.
Or one repository, I guess. The "document" could be a product wiki.
 
@ThomasOwens it's that "in some format" that an SAD answers: It says the goals shouldn't be altered by reality, thus that "format" should be separate from the SDD
plus that "format" is distinct and different from an SDD's format in various ways
 
What do you mean by "format", exactly?
Contents and structure of the information?
 
SDD goes into far greater detail, and is often broken up into multiple documents across various portions of a system. SAD has a much stronger focus on integration points between those systems
@ThomasOwens the reason for the document differs so the contents and sections focused on as well as the approach to communicating that stuff differs from an SDD
 
3:24 PM
@JimmyHoffa For us here, we have an SDD at different levels. For example, we have a System X SDD. It is what you describe as an SAD.
And System X has airborne subsystem, ground subsystem, and test subsystem. Each has an SDD. And each subsystem has components, with an SDD.
We call them SDDs. But they do contain both architectural and design information.
 
@amon this answer does a good job explaining this, I think, focusing more on the OO aspects - programmers.stackexchange.com/a/113541/52929
 
@ThomasOwens do they detail principles to the design approach: The design goals with whys, irrespective of the actual design?
 
@JimmyHoffa They are supposed to, yes. Some do a better job than others.
But yes, they capture the goals of the design, the intention, and the actual design. If they don't align, why they don't align.
 
@ThomasOwens then I suspect you're unfamiliarity with SAD simply has you guys calling SADs SDDs
 
@JimmyHoffa Perhaps. It looks like we meet the intent of the standard you linked to. It's just in the same document.
 
3:29 PM
@ThomasOwens You say Tomato, I say Firetruck
They are both red
 
@Mathematics it's not too bad, a bit "give me feedback on my design!" rather than "here is my problem and proposed solutino, what options are there?"
 
Especially at a system or subsystem level, we do have architectural frameworks employed. DoDAF views, usually. The component-level documents are more detail-design-oriented, but they still do address the intention, reality (after the code is written), and why the intent is the way it is and why they don't align if they don't.
 
@ThomasOwens there's a variety of reasons it's a good practice to maintain them separately. Realistically they should change irrespective of each other; also often by different people: Anyone writing code should have access to update the SDD because they're effectively changing the design, but not anyone get's to change the overarching goals of the SAD. The code often changes without goals changing, and goals will change as businesses evolve and technological capabilities evolve.
 
It doesn't matter if they are in one or 20 documents, architecturally significant requirements, declarative architectural views and rationale are important and should be captured on something a little more persistent than rice paper or phylo dough
my 2 pennies
 
@maple_shaft fuck that, phylo dough with an SAD printed on it is the best phylo dough. Spanakopita Architecturita Getinmamouthita
 
3:32 PM
@maple_shaft Absolutely. Everything needs appropriate controls.
 
@enderland The rise of OOP in the industry was seen as a way out of the “software crisis” where software systems were too complex to be understood. Encapsulation and modularization offers a way out since we can define precise interfaces and different subsystems cannot interfere with each other. Interestingly, many OOP languages only offer a very weak interpretation of encapsulation, e.g. C++ (where private members are declared publicly) or JavaScript (where only closures provide encapsulation).
 
user55340
C++ is a consequence of other design constraints from its close tie to C.
 
@amon But you don't need object-oriented programming to have modularity.
 
> C++ is a consequence
'nuff said :)
@ThomasOwens JavaScript provides it with closures perfectly well a completely non-OO approach
 
@ThomasOwens exactly. I'd argue that even encapsulation isn't a necessary property of an OOP system, unlike open recursion. Of course, a wild array of OOP interpretation exists, the most interesting being in a SIMULA paper which describes objects as continuations.
 
3:36 PM
I'm a huge proponent of component-based software engineering‌​.
 
user55340
@Mathematics it is probably a reasonable question for the site
 
oh, the first link was teh broke heh
 
@amon for some reason your comments here have clarified things in a way a lot of interesting articles did not... :)
 
@JimmyHoffa I failed at typing and pasting.
 
user55340
I still like message passing systems. Objective C. LPC (my first "real code experience ")
 
3:39 PM
@Mathematics To answer your question: I would encourage you look at CQRS - separating your classes along lines of reads vs updates (create, edit, delete)
 
user55340
LPC (short for Lars Pensjö C) is an object-oriented programming language derived from C and developed originally by Lars Pensjö to facilitate MUD building on LPMuds. Though designed for game development, its flexibility has led to it being used for a variety of purposes, and to its evolution into the language Pike. LPC syntax places it in the family of C-like languages, with C and C++ its strongest influences. == Basic structure == Almost everything in LPC is an object. However, LPC does not precisely use the concept of a class (MudOS has something called a class, but it is really a struc...
 
This is a chronological list of notable MUDs with summary information. == Legend == == List == == References... ==
Some quality nostalgia there.
 
user55340
I was a first generation player on mume. Amused that it is still up and running.
 
user55340
MUME, Multi-Users in Middle-earth, is a MUD, one of the early offspring of DikuMUD, founded in 1992. MUME enjoys a measure of popularity in the MUD world. In a September 2000 interview Raph Koster, the lead designer of Ultima Online and the chief creative officer of EverQuest II, lists MUME as one of the games that influenced him as a game designer by "doing such interesting things with player conflict". == History == MUME was created in 1991 by Philippe "Eru" Rochat, who was soon joined by Claude "CryHavoc" Indermitte, Pier "Manwë" Donini, and David "Nada" Gay. The game was built as an homage...
 
@JimmyHoffa I wasn't convinced til i saw that CP Mono
damn that looks good
 
user55340
3:48 PM
That player conflict bit was partially inspired by a bunch of is who got bored making rooms and descriptions one day.
 
user55340
We couldn't play as characters (knew too much of the game) so we "possessed" monsters (wargs and orcs) and attacked the main town.
 
@Ampt CP Mono was my first choice too - but upon use I found it too bold. Terminus didn't look so great on that site but I've found it to be the best so far. You really gotta play with some of them in your editor to know how it will actually look I learned after grabbing a hand full of those and trying them
 
user55340
Freaked a bunch of players out at first, but they loved it.
 
Source Code Pro from that pack is as I mentioned a largely used standard - and it is a nice looking font to be sure
 
My answer is to simply give your notice earlier and start the transition process now, but your question makes it seem like this isn't acceptable to you. I'm just curious as to why this isn't an acceptable answer. — Thomas Owens 1 hour ago
@ThomasOwens you are far more trusting than I think you should be :P
 
3:52 PM
@Ampt also if you like a font or two from that list - google for it, some of the fonts it links in it's github are older / less full featured (have less weights available etc) than what you can find in the original source sites for the fonts
 
user55340
@amon is that question now a dup of ipc?
 
@JimmyHoffa gah, this is just some ploy to get me to do actual work isn't it.
I'm on to you
 

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