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6:00 PM
Well, pretend to care at least, let's be real ;)
 
Ok, so you would power the augur from B to D I take it?
or at least use that as your signal?
 
user41796
@Ampt I'd use it for my signal
 
@GlenH7 why not just plug the thermocouple into an A2D? less accurate?
or does changing rx allow you to set when it signals
 
user41796
@Ampt The bridge gives you a more stable and known resistance to work against
 
user41796
@Ampt this, yes.
 
6:01 PM
See, my EE knowledge isn't terrible
 
user41796
You can also use the wheatstone bridge to balance out a strain gauage and get a more reliable signal.
 
user55340
Q: How do you get a politician to dance?
A: Use an [algor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore) [ithm](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhythm)
 
so you would basically take B as ground and D as your signal, and then use that to drive your PWM
 
user55340
Ok, that's mangled the punchline now.
 
I think you need the http?
maybe?
 
user55340
6:04 PM
I suspect its the markdown handling of multi-line.
 
user55340
Lets try again.
 
@GlenH7 so what, exactly, is VG in this case then?
 
user55340
Q: How do you get a politician to dance? A: Use an algorithm
 
user55340
Yep. I blame the markdown parser.
 
curse you markdown!
 
user41796
6:08 PM
@Ampt voltage difference between the two arms
 
user55340
Btw, a bit more related to what we do...
 
user55340
The Playfair cipher or Playfair square is a manual symmetric encryption technique and was the first literal digraph substitution cipher. The scheme was invented in 1854 by Charles Wheatstone, but bears the name of Lord Playfair who promoted the use of the cipher. The technique encrypts pairs of letters (digraphs), instead of single letters as in the simple substitution cipher and rather more complex Vigenère cipher systems then in use. The Playfair is thus significantly harder to break since the frequency analysis used for simple substitution ciphers does not work with it. The frequency analysis...
 
@GlenH7 but are they connected?
is VG an actual device?
 
user41796
And I kind of misled, I'd use the VG as the signal as it's 0 on a balanced circuit. R2 does need to be a potentiometer and Rx gets replaced with the thermistor | thermocouple | strain gauge
 
user41796
@Ampt No, it's a voltage measurement
 
6:10 PM
ahh
so the arms are seperate
 
user41796
Yes
 
well thats a stupidly simple circuit then
 
user41796
@Ampt stupidly simple, remarkably stable, amazingly powerful.
 
I don't feel like I'm missing anything by knowing nothing about electrical crap. Just a bunch of hard and boring math. Homomorphisms are much funner.
far more useful as well
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa No robotics for you!
 
6:14 PM
@GlenH7 I should think robots sound interesting, but for the life of me I've never found them the slightest bit interesting
Robotics strikes me as horribly boring
 
user41796
Out of my store! Out! Out! No Robotics for you!
 
user55340
Btw, its amusing that the Wheatstone bridge is invented by another guy, but made popular by him... and the play fair cipher was invented by Wheatstone and made popular by Playfair.
 
user41796
@MichaelT turnabout is fair play?
 
user55340
@GlenH7 heh... the Playfair cipher was used as recently as WWII for encryption. Time sensitive things that needed to be encrypted in the field.
 
user55340
Doesn't matter if it gets broken in a few days - the 'its not broken in a few minutes' was key.
 
6:19 PM
did someone say something about EE
 
user41796
@whatsisname Nope, not around here. We were just discussing beer.
 
user41796
Wheat beer; Stone Brewery. You know.
 
user55340
The Vigenère cipher is a method of encrypting alphabetic text by using a series of different Caesar ciphers based on the letters of a keyword. It is a simple form of polyalphabetic substitution. The Vigenère (French pronunciation: ​[viʒnɛːʁ]) cipher has been reinvented many times. The method was originally described by Giovan Battista Bellaso in his 1553 book La cifra del. Sig. Giovan Battista Bellaso; however, the scheme was later misattributed to Blaise de Vigenère in the 19th century, and is now widely known as the "Vigenère cipher". Though the cipher is easy to understand and implement, for...
 
user41796
<looks for bridge + beer reference>
 
theres a brewery that just started up here in St. Paul called Tin Whiskers
 
user55340
6:20 PM
Another ok cipher for quick hand... but if you know you're getting one its quite possible to break rather quickly because of the rotating nature of the key. Playfair didn't have that.
 
they have a beer called wheatstone
and short-circuit
also using a thermocouple in a wheatstone bridge is going to work miserably
 
user55340
Double Share (something I'm re-listening to now) had a brewery that named its beers simply... "Midday thirst ale" and "Just off work pilsner" type thing...
 
you must be thinking of a thermistor or rtd100
 
user41796
@whatsisname oh? I haven't played with thermocouples, and was assuming their properties were similar to thermistors or strain gauges.
 
user55340
The idea being "we're not catering to the beer snobs that want a particular fancy beer... but rather 'a good beer to have when thirsty mid day'"
 
6:23 PM
yes
 
I just went with @GlenH7. He seemed to know what he was talking about
 
thermocouples produce a voltage dependent on temperature
and a wheatstone bridge measures resistivity
 
user41796
That would create a problem then.
 
if you are going to use a thermocouple use something like a max 31855 that will take care of the details
 
user41796
Is a thermocouple just a thermistor bundled with a wheatstone bridge?
 
6:24 PM
because with a thermocouple you need to compensate for the cold junction
 
Pretty sure a wheatstone bridge can't generate voltage
can it?
 
no, a thermocouple is a device with two different metals that produces a voltage
like a reverse peltier
same effect, the seebeck effect
 
user41796
@whatsisname That makes sense
 
produces a few microvolts/C depending on type
whereas a thermistor or rtd100 changes resistance depending on temp
 
user55340
debating if this is more or less incomprehensible than a cat's homomorphism while playing with a monad... or something like that.
 
6:25 PM
ok, so if we wanted to measure a temperature accurate to 1F from say 30F to 400F, what would we need
 
400F might push you into thermocouple territory
 
what if we dropped to 300?
 
thermisotrs and rtd100s are cheaper and easier to deal with, and more precise, but have a much smaller temperature range
 
user41796
@Ampt Safer to stick with the higher range temperate so a flare up doesn't roast your device.
 
whereas I have sitting on my desk right this instant two thermocouples that are good up to nearly 2500F
what are you trying to make
 
6:27 PM
@GlenH7 well that's it's useful range, I'm hoping that we can push it without melting it
temp sensor for inside a grill
 
use a thermocouple
no question
 
user41796
From the max 31855 that @whatsisname recommended
 
user41796
> This converter resolves temperatures to 0.25°C, allows readings as high as +1800°C and as low as -270°C, and exhibits thermocouple accuracy of ±2°C for temperatures ranging from -200°C to +700°C for K-type thermocouples.
 
adafruit makes a spiffy little 31855 breakout
 
ok, one part done. now for the augur
 
user41796
6:28 PM
@whatsisname That's good to know, as this is a project I'm actually considering tackling over the winter.
 
I've made a sous-vide controller and a turkey-fryer controller that uses all thermocouples
 
@GlenH7 you're actually making one?
 
user41796
@Ampt (strongly) considering....
 
one of the thermocouples is right in the flame of the turkey fryer controller to create some rudimentary safety-check
was 40 bucks
 
@GlenH7 keep me in the loop. It sounds like fun
 
6:29 PM
what are you hoping to accomplish with a temp sensor in a grill
a smoker or something?
 
user41796
@whatsisname ding!
 
user41796
I was raving earlier about Traeger smokers
 
temperature controlled, auto-feeding pellet grill
 
a friend of mine is going to try to make my turkey-controller work to make a smoker
though I have yet to get the valve control working yet because its summer and I've been busy
 
user41796
@whatsisname valve for propane?
 
6:30 PM
@Ampt I still don't think pellet grills are particularly worth it
 
@JimmyHoffa well thats the beauty of DIY, you can make it spit out charcoal if you want
 
@Gl
@GlenH7 yeah
 
user41796
@Ampt True, you could make a coal crusher, injector, and create a miniature coal fired power plant.
 
ok, since I have you here and you're now the resident EE expert, how can I measure a low flow gas
 
lemme see if I have a picture of the mechanics, it's totally ridiculous
for what purpose
 
6:32 PM
Specifically I want to measure CO2 produced by a batch of fermenting beer
 
user41796
I had just been pondering if it would be possible to get a valve that could automatically adjust the flow like that for propane. As I already have a propane fired smoker. But the burner is oversized for the smoker.
 
it already goes through a bubbler airlock
so this could be on either side
the problem is that the pressure is very low
It bubbles through about 1-2 inches of water
 
user41796
@Ampt Since you're talking about brewing, you could probably use an optical sensor to detect when the rate of fermentation slows.
 
oh thats going to be tough to do on the cheap
 
@Ampt I use a charcoal grill for it's simplicity - just the whole grilling thing being some technological task... Iduno. I didn't even own a microwave until I had a kid because I don't find the act of basic cooking to be a bother
 
6:33 PM
@whatsisname ok, how much are we talking?
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa See, this is what real engineers do to exercise their minds... :-P
 
@GlenH7 Ideally I'd like to know my conversion, and CO2 would allow me to calculate that down to an ounce
 
several hundreds of dollars, likely
 
@whatsisname bah. ok. That's right out then
 
I'm trying to think of how you could do it ghetto style
 
6:34 PM
I heard of a guy using an accelerometer to measure how far between bubbles he got
and he had an average bubble volume
 
user41796
sounds like a tightly focused mass spectrometer...
 
so he could get a pretty decent estimate that way
 
does it mess with the fermentation if you let the pressure build up by several psi?
 
good question
I would guess no
does that make it feasible?
 
user41796
@whatsisname a few psi shouldn't be enough to affect the temperature
 
6:35 PM
if not you might be able to make something work
would you could do is get a pressure sensor such as something from allsensors
in the few inches of water range
wait until the pressure builds up to a particular level, then open a valve to vent it out
and by precisely knowing your volume, compute the flow
 
@GlenH7 aye, tbh I sometimes think I made a mistake in not going into maths... I enjoy the more abstract mental exercises like pondering how to relate points in a bounded 4 dimensional space to a 3 dimensional space such that the extra dimension can be encoded by using the locations outside of the source set's bounding area
 
one sec
 
@whatsisname you have my interest, I'll hold
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa See, that's all abstract. We like the concrete reality of totally geeking out our grilling and brewing.
 
aww yeah
 
6:37 PM
hello
 
user41796
I think if I found a high temp fan, that would give me the impetus to modify my existing smoker and put a controller on there. As I think the convection aspect really improves the overall cooking.
 
user55340
@Ampt optical was the old way to do it... its still not a bad way to do it.
 
@GlenH7 aye... I don't even really like technology stuff much. I'm usually going for the simplest available solution when it comes to actually doing things, thus my mini-charcoal grill at home (actually got a big weber from the neighbors which is awesome for friends coming over - but would go through way too much charcoal just for my wife and I to have dinner..)
 
I wanna program a universe too
 
user55340
 
6:39 PM
@MichaelT you mean with a spectrometer?
yeah
that's true
but also doesn't involve embedded systems and science
 
user55340
A refractometer is a laboratory or field device for the measurement of an index of refraction (refractometry). The index of refraction is calculated from Snell's law and can be calculated from the composition of the material using the Gladstone–Dale relation. == Types of refractometers == There are four main types of refractometers: traditional handheld refractometers, digital handheld refractometers, laboratory or Abbe refractometers, and inline process refractometers. There is also the Rayleigh Refractometer used (typically) for measuring the refractive indices of gases. In veterinary medicine...
 
user55340
refractometer.
 
I'd say they were the same thing, but I'm sure they aren't
 
user41796
@Ampt sure it does; you need to automate reading the device
 
user55340
 
6:40 PM
Hmmm.. OCR tools
 
user55340
Image of a wine grower testing the sugar content of grapes in the field.
 
they are actually used a lot for home brewing
 
@MichaelT never confuse with a refractoscope, refractimeter, or refractoreror
 
user55340
Gravity, in the context of fermenting alcoholic beverages, refers to the specific gravity, or relative density compared to water, of the wort or must at various stages in the fermentation. The concept is used in brewing and wine making industry. Specific gravity is measured by a hydrometer, refractometer, pycnometer or oscillating U-tube electronic meter. The density of a wort is largely dependent on the sugar content of the wort. During alcohol fermentation, yeast converts sugars into carbon dioxide and alcohol. The decline in the sugar content and the presence of ethanol (which is appreciably...
 
most guys start by taking the Gravity
UGH
QUIT TAKING MY LINKS
 
user55340
6:41 PM
Sometimes I wonder if the Beer.SE and Homebrewing.SE chat rooms should just be merged here...
 
user55340
;-)
 
Jimmy would scare them off with monads and whatnot
 
user55340
Just convince them that its monads and wort instead.
 
My father and I are working on a brew stand actually
 
user55340
 
6:43 PM
he got one of those nice aluminium grooved rods
they use in industrial machining
@MichaelT take your science and get out! We're artists over here! Artists with arduinos and motors!
 
user55340
> Brix scale hand refractometers are developed for sugar-related liquids such as fruit juices, honey, soft drinks, and wines. These units are used to help monitor and control the sugar concentrations of products in the food and beverage industry. Whether checking the “ripeness” of fruit in the field, verifying product quality after the harvest, or controlling concentrations during processing and packaging, refractometers provide critical information to ensure product quality. Full ranges of measurement are available.
 
user55340
@Ampt sayth the guy asking about measuring CO2 to the ounce or so...
 
hey I'm back
sorry to disappear for a moment
so yeah like I said, you may be able to make it work with a pressure sensor
 
so just measure the pressure and bleed it off at a known rate
is what you're saying I think
 
well, bleeding it at a known rate is a challenge too
so when it hits a certain pressure
just completely open the valve
let it go back to ambient
but that depends on precisely knowing the volume of your pressure vessel, which won't necessarily be easy
why are you trying to measure the co2 flowrate?
 
6:48 PM
ok, so you make a slurry of sugar water
put in yeast. Yeast converts sugar into alcohol + CO2
by measuring the amount of CO2 made, I can calculate the alcohol level
 
why don't you just measure the specific gravity
isn't that the traditional way of doing it
 
5 mins ago, by Ampt
@MichaelT take your science and get out! We're artists over here! Artists with arduinos and motors!
yes
it very much is
 
lol
 
@whatsisname using a pressure differential valve of sorts should be able to do this completely analog... why bother with a sensor or tech?
 
I was... asking for a friend. yeah. that's it
 
6:50 PM
your sensorless valve will have its own problems that you'll have to account for
ampt, you could try to make your own laminar flow meter
 
@whatsisname ?
 
@JimmyHoffa Like being sensorless. Imagine what the kids at sensor-school will say
can you imagine growing up with that?
 
@JimmyHoffa: I'm not really sure what you mean by "pressure differential valve" but whatever it is i'm sure it will have some non-linearity to it
as that is how things invariably work
 
have some container for the pressure to be equalized against and a valve that connects the 2 - only opening for the one side when it's pressure can push past that of the other container
 
We're only doing 5 gallon batches, so I doubt we'll produce the minimum flow to get one going
 
user41796
6:52 PM
@Ampt Make bigger batches then.
 
water volume can act to create the pressure that needs to be competed against
 
it's probably somewhere around a liter every, say, half hour
maybe less
@GlenH7 I tried. Something about "Never being able to drink it all"
I thought it was a challenge, but the old man disagrees
 
@JimmyHoffa, so, that valve is going to chatter, causing weirdness in your data, and you now have to know what the other vessels pressure is, which requires measurement
 
@whatsisname sure but it'll be a static value (well ok, in a perfect world it would be...) that said, I thought you just wanted to bleed based on a controllable pressure trigger... wasn't clear there was some sensor involved
 
an ultrasonic flow meter might work but while cheap would probably require 1000 hours to get working
@JimmyHoffa: the sensor would be because a mechanical valve alone would be unrelaible
 
user41796
6:54 PM
@Ampt beer keeps for a while. Especially the high alcohol stuff like you guys brew.
 
now, given I may be imagining a much higher precision than is actually needed
 
@GlenH7 nah, we only do those once in a while. most of ours come in around 3-4%
what if I got a hyper sensitive weight sensor... hmmm
 
how many liters per hour do you think you'll produce?
 
of gas?
Like maybe 1-2
if it's really going
 
6:56 PM
LOL
Now that I've got coffee all over my desk
 
hey that's a good price
 
Yeah, it'll be here next week!
 
@whatsisname I see @GlenH7 isn't the only one I get to make fun of in here for being a real engineer... you IEEE types and your "consistency" and "precision" and "correctness" and stuff.. whatever.
 
RS232 built in, l33t
@JimmyHoffa: some of us around here have to deal with reality now and then
 
@whatsisname Don't use the R word around him, it scares him.
 
user41796
6:59 PM
Amazon prime wants to interview me hire me to work in Vancouver. I'm kind of tempted....
 
@GlenH7 just straight up hire?
no interview needed?
 
user41796
No, just one of those unsolicited recruitment things through LinkedIn
 
what kind of position is this? Are you packing boxes? Cuz I'd like to file a complaint. it took 3 days for me to get a package
OTOH, it took one company 5 days to ship my T-shirt
now it's not gonna be here in time for my concert next friday
 
check this out
 
user41796
@Ampt Software Developer / Technical Program Manager / Quality Assurance Engineer
 
7:00 PM
its the ridiculous valve controller
 
Is that.. 3d printed?
 
yep
 
That is AWESOME
 
user41796
@whatsisname Took me a moment to understand what it was, but that's awesome.
 
its like that so I can just use any old valve from the hardware store for the turkey fryer
 
user41796
7:02 PM
That's pretty smart
 
then I have a stepper motor in there to spin it around
 
and its 3d printed.
 
and because its absurd
 
That's the coolest thing I've seen all week.
 
we have a stratasys machine here so I've used it to make a lot of questionable devices
such as this thing a few years ago: img.whatsisname.com/irl/keyboardpusher.jpg
 
7:03 PM
Is that a spacebar masher?
 
exactly
we have this machine for doing calibrations that has dos-era software on it
 
and I've got better things to do than just stand there and hit the space bar every few moments
 
I see that the login password is actually written in indelible sharpie on the keyboard.
 
@RobertHarvey that's how we like to roll
 
7:05 PM
I see no problem
I'm pretty sure the only thing questionable about these devices is whether they're awesome, or the most awesome things ever invented
 
So much electronics for what could be accomplished with a Triac and a couple of transistors.
 
user41796
@RobertHarvey Where's your spirit of adventure?!
 
you can go sit over there with @MichaelT
we're having fun over here
 
Why when I was your age...
 
@RobertHarvey: that motor is worth something like $3,000 with a big fancy motion controller in it too
 
7:07 PM
23 mins ago, by Ampt
@MichaelT take your science and get out! We're artists over here! Artists with arduinos and motors!
 
but I had it laying around so I just used it because it was quick
we eventually upgraded and built something that we'd put in-line on the AT keyboard connector, that would spoof keyboard presses
 
Theres just something about a $3,000 spacebar pusher that gets my blood flowing
 
but I don't have any pics of that
 
(Because it's not nearly as cool)
 
anyways GlenH7, for a smoker
 
7:09 PM
Makes me wonder how much we've overtaken the plumbing in our regular technology. I'm driving down the road, and suddenly my car decides I need to be somewhere else.
 
you could probably be served well by a solenoid gas valve
 
it burns wood, not gas
 
at least... I think that was the idea?
 
well, still
have an air pump
 
7:10 PM
that's how all my smokers worked
OH! for the air pump
 
and when you need more juice pump some air into there
 
user41796
@Ampt No, I have a gas fired smoker
 
@GlenH7 Not sure if sarcasm...
 
user41796
But I need to throttle it down because it's oversized
 
user41796
propanes advantage here is that the tank will last quite a while
 
user41796
7:11 PM
and you can put wood chips in for the smoke
 
yeah, so an on/off solenoid valve could probably serve you well enough
 
user41796
@whatsisname That seems like a more reasonable route.
 
its really a gas powered smoker?
 
user41796
And then hook the igniter up to a relay so it can spark when the gas comes back on.
 
i didn't go with an electric valve for my turkey fryer because anything besides on/off was too expensive
 
user41796
7:11 PM
@Ampt fueled, yes. Water smoker type.
 
@GlenH7 sounds like a job for a spark-plug!
 
and not ridiculous enough
is it a piezo ignitor?
 
user41796
@whatsisname existing one is, yes
 
then you'll need more than a relay to throw a spark
 
user41796
But I'm open to alternate solutions
 
7:12 PM
sparkfun makes a little ignitor coil for a few bucks that would do the job
 
ok, what about a flint and steel hooked up to a motor
too far?
 
sufficiently absurd
 
user41796
Oh, I think I've been introduced to a site that will suck up hours of my day.
 
You could stand up a few hundred dominoes, have them knock over a switch.
@GlenH7 TV Tropes?
 
user41796
@RobertHarvey sparkfun.
 
7:18 PM
it can also suck up many dollars
not as many as digikey though
 
user41796
That sparker might be a bit too loud
 
user41796
Neighbors might get mad at something that loud going off at 3 AM when the smoker lights back up.
 
Those guys made a 7 segment display out of those spark gaps transformers. That's just crazy shit.
 
user41796
@RobertHarvey Did you get to the part where he's talking about how loud it is?!
 
It's loud, all right.
 
7:25 PM
it's not that loud
not going to bother the neighbors
 
user41796
105+ dB at 3 AM? My neighbors are closer than yours apparently. :-)
 
I have one of those and it wasn't all that loud
 
It's mostly high-frequency noise. Won't even go through a hollow door.
 
100 bones for all that looks like a pretty dece deal
 
user41796
@whatsisname That was what I was thinking as well
 
7:30 PM
Yeah, I might actually get one. That ought to keep me occupied for 3 months or so.
 
user41796
If nothing else, it's a good excuse to start playing with an arduino
 
And it comes in a carrying case? consider me sold!
 
there are some cheap STM32 dev boards too
depending on what you want to do
digikey.com/product-detail/en/STM32F429I-DISCO/497-13898-ND/… is a pretty good deal, but doesn't have any breadboards or anything like that
not quite as friendly as an arduino though
 
If you really want cheap, Texas Instruments makes ARM boards you can get for about $13..
TI has an Assembly Language that's the best I've ever seen.
 
that stm32 has a touchscreen LCD
what TI chip?
 
7:38 PM
Not sure about the chip. The board is called a TIVA.
TM4C1294NCPDTI 120-MHz 32-bit ARM® Cortex®-M4 MCU with floating point
 
well if its an ARM processor its not their assembly
unless they have their own assembler
though why would you bother programming an arm in assembly
 
Because you can.
It's about learning the metal.
 
sounds awful
if you're going to sling assembly at least use a chip where it wasn't meant to be developed by a compiler
 
the ARM architecture was intended from day one to be targeted by compilers
 
user20683
7:42 PM
ARM assembly isn't a terrible assembly language. It's quite similar to SPARC
 
it came after the realization that CISC was a mistake
 
The trick is to find an assembler that is sophisticated enough to be very close to C code, or C that is very low-level.
A macro assembler, or somesuch.
That way, you're not constantly doing things like looping over strings of ASCII characters.
 
even when programming in C you'll spend a lot of time looking at the data sheets
 
Here we go. This is the original post I stumbled across.
8
Q: What is a good embedded platform to use to teach yourself assembly language?

PeterMI've got a decent amount of programming experience but it is all in high level languages. I recently picked up C and that project went really well and the learning experience was well worth it. Now I want to take that one step further and learn assembly language but ideally I'd like to learn on ...

Apparently, I was thinking of the msp430.
Prettiest Assembly Language I've ever seen.
 
never used the msp430
 
7:50 PM
You can get a Launchpad for as little as 10 dollars.
But... I suppose it's not as sexy as space bar mashers.
 
lol
 

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