The Whiteboard

12:02 AM

Damn. Looks like there was a mass upheval of users over at the server-fault chat... they went and got themselves a private chat room on some private site

Robert Harvey

Really.

Ampt

seriously. their room is dead

Robert Harvey

The influx of wannabee IT people must have finally caused their collective heads to explode. You think the C++ room is bad...

Ampt

It looks like that's exactly what happened

overexchange

hai

Robert Harvey

12:03 AM

'Course, it is the weekend.

@overexchange Don't say hai, just talk.

Ampt

@RobertHarvey dude, dead for days on end

like nothing but the automated posts for days

in The Comms Room, Nov 1 at 0:14, by Iain

room topic changed to The Comms Room: So long, and thanks for all the fish. [gone-to-slack] [we-have-all] [zfuck-markdown]

overexchange

i have a query on interface

can i ask?

Robert Harvey

Hm. It's their right, I guess.

2 days ago, by Robert Harvey

Don't ask if you can ask, just ask.

overexchange

i learnt that, Java's class hierarchy isn't about abstract classes in most cases, its about interfaces. How do u see this statement?

Robert Harvey

Abstract classes can't be multiply-inherited.

That's it, for the most part.

Also, you can't put implementation in an Interface.

Ampt

12:07 AM

@RobertHarvey Yep. Shame too. I'm guessing when all the questions you get all day are support, everything starts to sound like support though

Robert Harvey

Good riddance, I guess.

in The Comms Room, 9 mins ago, by Ry Jones

this channel isn't for live support anyway

user55340

@Ampt the migration appeared to have started on the 31st.

Ampt

Yeah I didn't think my question was all "PLZ HALP FIX SERVER"

user55340

in The Comms Room, Oct 31 at 19:50, by BigHomie

2 hours on a friday w/ no comments, in the middle of an American workday? Wow, everybody really is going to slack.

Robert Harvey

Those guys were real fuckers anyway. At least you could have a conversation with the Lounge folks.

Ampt

12:09 AM

I asked a pretty focused question that wouldn't be on topic for a QA type session

but when you're a tool, everything looks like a... wait...

user55340

A bit prior to that, they appear to have been several people that did a "post their question and expect support"

Robert Harvey

They weren't keen on answering anyone's questions in there, really. If they just want a water cooler hangout, they can do that somewhere else.

user55340

@RobertHarvey and they did.

Robert Harvey

Yep. Good for them.

Ampt

Looks like they weren't keen on helping the site much more either.

they must still keep the old chat up though

that guy popped in and out just to say it's not live chat

Robert Harvey

12:11 AM

They must?

Well, maybe there were a few pricks there that spoiled it for everyone else.

user55340

@Ampt That actually is an argument I've heard for not cracking down on the lounge when they get out of line.

user55340

"but if we crack down on the lounge, a few 100k C++ users who only come here to visit the lounge won't visit SO anymore"

Ampt

don't tell them about slack then

user55340

@Ampt I think they like being the lounge and all curmudgeonry.

Ampt

lol they're giving the word a whole new meaning

Robert Harvey

12:14 AM

Last time I was in The Lounge things had mellowed a bit. Ever since the Vagina Incident.

user55340

Still think that Robert needs to persuade SE to make the lounge's room title change every 30 seconds for the next April Fools.

Robert Harvey

Aren't hats bad enough?

Ampt

@RobertHarvey LOL I don't even have to know what happened to get a laugh out of that

user55340

66

Q: Offensive, inappropriate, and un-professional chat room names

I was browsing the front-page of Meta, and I noticed off to the right a very strange and kind of inappropriate name for a chat room: However, when I look at the chat room info directly, the name of the room appears as Lounge<C++> Questions Are chat rooms allowed to be named after genit...

Ampt

> but you're still expected to conduct yourselves like decent human beings and not unruly little shits to hell with the system

LOL

Robert Harvey

12:17 AM

Yeah, that consumed everyone for about a day and a half.

So, you guys never gave me feedback on my Guy Fieri idea for maximum employer visibility.

user55340

Wasn't that also when MSO was still 'young'? And hit the side 'hot meta posts' too?

Ampt

Well... I have a story about that actually, @RobertHarvey. I was at a conference once while in college, and it was a very professional conference, lots of suits and ties, and during one of the talks, I ended up next to a guy in a snap-back, flat billed hat

Robert Harvey

IIRC it did hit the hot posts, yes.

@Ampt It's more about looking younger vs looking redneck.

Ampt

I remember introducing myself and we quickly talked about his hat and I asked why the hat. I distinctly remember him saying "Well how are you going to forget the guy in the snapback in the middle of all these suits". He was right. I never forgot that stupid snap-back, but I couldn't pick that guy out of a lineup, or tell you anything else about him.

Robert Harvey

By that logic, I could wear a Duck Dynasty T-shirt to my interviews.

user55340

12:20 AM

Relevant RFC: 2323

user15026

@RobertHarvey I am sure I could help with that, my sister's boyfriend has infinity of those shirts

Ampt

@RobertHarvey you would quickly become nothing more than "That guy in a duck-dynasty shirt"

@AshleyNunn ... I'm sorry to hear that

Robert Harvey

So not wearing your sister's boyfriend's T-shirts.

user15026

@Ampt Him and my sister both fit the archetype of people who watch shows of that ilk.

user55340

(btw, intriguing seeing MSO regulars show up in the comments at programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/263539/select-where-php (10k link))

Ampt

12:22 AM

@AshleyNunn well at least they have eachother I suppose.

user15026

They're happy, and occasionally I get to eat squirrel and other odd things.

Ampt

I... wouldn't eat that

user55340

Also had an interesting time digging into some of the memory allocation bits of the JVM:

user55340

2

A: Stack and Heap memory in Java

Where are primitive fields stored? Primitive fields are stored as part of the object that is instantiated somewhere. The easiest way to think of where this is - is the heap. However, this is not always the case. As described in Java theory and practice: Urban performance legends, revisited: ...

user55340

Escape analysis

In programming language compiler optimization theory, escape analysis is a method for determining the dynamic scope of pointers - where in the program a pointer can be accessed. It is related to pointer analysis and shape analysis. When a variable (or an object) is allocated in a subroutine, a pointer to the variable can escape to other threads of execution, or to calling subroutines. If an implementation uses tail call optimization (usually required for functional languages), objects may also be seen as escaping to called subroutines. If a language supports first-class continuations (as do Scheme...

Ampt

12:24 AM

@MichaelT ugh fine have a stupid upvote for your well thought out, well researched post.

user15026

@Ampt Squirrel is tasty, actually. I was nervous about it, but it was good. We had it in a pot pie and if you hadn't said "this is squirrel" I would have thought like dark turkey or something

Robert Harvey

[Answering 3 year old questions with researched answers... Really needs a job]

user55340

@RobertHarvey it had a new answer, it was wrong (link only to a tutorial that didn't answer the question). I tried explaining why it was wrong and the expectations... didn't see something that meet my expectations, so I researched it and found the accepted answer was wrong (all of the others were wrong too).

Robert Harvey

Is it wrong because it's outdated, or was it always wrong?

user55340

ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-jtp09275/index.html was written in 2005.

user55340

12:26 AM

So it appears "always has been wrong"

Robert Harvey

This is very similar to the difficulty people have grasping stack and heap usage in C#.

Most people understand it wrong.

user55340

The paper I made mention of was written in '99, though seems to be research at that point.

user55340

It was during the period of IBM pushing into Java's performance and trying to move it forward as Sun was falling down on the job.

Robert Harvey

blogs.msdn.com/b/ericlippert/archive/2009/04/27/…

So did they migrate to another room on the SE network, or to a different system entirely?

user55340

@RobertHarvey Added link to my answer.

user55340

12:31 AM

@RobertHarvey Different system.

Ampt

@RobertHarvey totally different system

private chatroom

need invite via email

user55340

Invite only chat room on Slack: slack.com

user55340

Employer^ used that for internal chat too.

Robert Harvey

Slack looks cool.

user55340

It is.

Ampt

12:31 AM

We ain't moving.

Robert Harvey

No, but I wonder how I might use it personally.

Ampt

to talk to sysadmins who don't want to deal with your crap.

user55340

@Ampt we haven't reached helldesk level support questions here.

Ampt

I thought that was obvious

@MichaelT Yeah... I'm not faulting them for leaving, but they could have handled it better

user55340

Its rather neat when you start building an infrastructure around it. You have slack up and can see all the builds and messages going through the system.

Robert Harvey

12:33 AM

Infrastructure?

user55340

Every checkin to github was echoed there. Ever build on Jenkins was echoed there (along with passing / failing tests)

user55340

You can set up various app servers to push performance issues there.

Robert Harvey

Really. Isn't that a bit... insecure, if you're building a proprietary app?

user55340

Stripe can hook in and show its transaction information.

Robert Harvey

Or is the chatroom itself private?

user55340

12:34 AM

The chat room can be private.

user55340

(again, thats the "how we make money on a free service")

Robert Harvey

That guy with the troubleshooting question was pretty persistent. But he's 15 years old; he doesn't even understand how to play well with others yet.

user55340

Archive of only 10k messages, 5 integrations? Free. You want all the archive and limited interrogations? $6.67/user/month

Robert Harvey

I'm starting to think that's the whole problem with SE right now. 15 year olds who think they're entitled to do anything they want.

user55340

@RobertHarvey s/15 year olds/people/

Robert Harvey

12:37 AM

I still haven't decoded that slash terminology yet.

user55340

If you look you can find CIOs with the same perspective... they're just less common.

Robert Harvey

You mean 15 year olds that are entitled?

user55340

@RobertHarvey chat on P.SE - the search goes back to the dawn of time. Free chat on slack? 10k messages.

Robert Harvey

How fast does 10K messages get used up? I'm guessing a few weeks on an active channel?

user55340

Number of feeds in P.SE chat? unlimited (until you annoy SE). Number of feeds in slack chat: 5. Note that's also the other integrations. Not an issue for general chat, but for company chat - you can hit that 5 without too much trouble.

Robert Harvey

12:39 AM

We have the entire world on these things. How do you get a small to medium-sized company to use them without them going silent?

user55340

(slack integration: slack.com/integrations )

Robert Harvey

@MichaelT Gah. Why didn't you and I have this idea and start our own company?

user55340

@RobertHarvey again, integrations can kick in to those messages.

overexchange

i learnt that instanceof keyword is a binary operator used to test if an object (instance) is a subtype of a given Type. so, i think we use this in a scenario, when programmer do not know at run time that whether the object is of SubType. But Do we get such scenarios in real time?

user55340

@RobertHarvey because we weren't hip enough.

Robert Harvey

12:41 AM

Hipchat: Becuz we be serious [hands on hips]

@overexchange They're fairly rare, but they do show up in situations where, say, abstract factories are used. You get an object, but you don't necessarily know the derived type.

user55340

@overexchange there are often situations where one doesn't know the real type of the object coming in and may want to upcast to the more specific type for some reason.

Robert Harvey

Java FactoryFactoryFactories.

user55340

Example: foo(Number bar) { if (bar instanceof Integer) { ... } else { ... } }

user55340

however, use of instanceof (at least in Java) is considered code smell and discouraged.

user55340

51

Q: Avoiding instanceof in Java

Having a chain of "instanceof" operations is considered a "code smell". The standard answer is "use polymorphism". How would I do it in this case? There are a number of subclasses of a base class; none of them are under my control. An analogous situation would be with the Java classes Integer...

java instanceof

user55340

12:44 AM

Which leads us to When Polymorphism Fails by Steve Yegge. Because sometimes it does fail to work in an ideal manner.

user55340

Another discussion on Instanceof in conditionals at C2: c2.com/cgi/wiki?InstanceofInConditionals

overexchange

@MichaelT basically instanceof looks to me like a non-polymorphic code which looks undesirable, how could the design not handle the received unknown type object with your given class hierarchy that you tried knowing the dynamic type of an object at runtime

user55340

@overexchange let me see if I've still got this code around... I do have a case where instanceof was the correct and only option available.

user55340

(short version while I hunt for it - I was working with reflection. I got a list of all the fields, and needed to find out what the actual type of the field was)

Robert Harvey

It's like that weird tool in your uncle's garage. You can only use it under the sink, but if you do need it, it's the only tool that will work.

amon

12:53 AM

Sometimes, I have a type with a finite number of subtypes. For example a Tree can be a Node or a Leaf, but nothing else. To find out which is which, instanceof is a valid solution – the Visitor Pattern would be overkill. In functional languages, I'd have used pattern matching instead.

Robert Harvey

A leaf is just a node with nothing in the left or right properties.

user55340

overexchange

@MichaelT If i try knowing the dynamic type of an object at runtime, then what is the need to learn writing polymorphic code using inheritance in OOP paradigm? without any design pattern knowledge(with me), i would say the key to OOP paradigm is about writing polymorphic code using inheritance where as functional paradigm is about writing poly code using functions as first class objects. abstraction/encapsulation concepts are common in both paradigms, i guess

Robert Harvey

@MichaelT That's the one.

amon

@RobertHarvey I was trying to sketch up the equivalent of data Tree 'a = Node (Tree 'a) (Tree 'a) | Leaf 'a as an example of some data structure with a finite number of subtypes. data Bool = True | False or data Maybe 'a = Some 'a | Nothing or data List 'a = Cons 'a (List 'a) | Nil would also work.

user55340

12:57 AM

@RobertHarvey remember, employer^^ was a home improvement company... and I've got a house.

Robert Harvey

@overexchange You're using a lot of technical terms there, chief. Are you sure you know what they all mean?

The tool that best fits your particular scenario trumps vocabulary, all day long.

overexchange

@RobertHarvey probably yes, michael taught me most of the technical terms in there.

user55340

The only time I've had a justifiable use of instanceof was in writing framework level code that was reflecting on possible things that instantiated an abstract class that I wrote to look at the types of the primitives in the fields so that it could print them out properly.

user55340

(and the occasional upcasting check so that I wouldn't have a class cast exception)

user55340

(side bit - don't appear to have that code on this machine)

overexchange

1:08 AM

@MichaelT Most of the time word contract is talked using interface keyword in java? but an implementation class can also have a contract right?

user55340

1:18 AM

Everything in the public API is part of the contract of the class. Changing the public API breaks things that you didn't write. Everything in an interface is public.

overexchange

changing public API in the sense, the class owner should not just change the signature of method, the logic in the method body can be changed. correct?

user55340

Yep.

overexchange

so once you come up with the signature of the public method API in a class and then users start using my java package, you have no chance to change the method signature by adding another argument in the future. this is the contract forever.

@MichaelT Did you get into problems any time where your public API create issues and you need to change the signature to fix that, which is not possible.

in the product i work for, doSearch(String searcriteria, String search_url){} is a public api written by some John in Java swing code that interacts with webserver. now we are in need of introducing third parameter int searchattempt to fix production issue.

user55340

1:39 AM

@overexchange If you think you've got something wrong or what to change it, you can @deprecate the method which sends hints through the system that "this should be changed in the future"

user55340

You can make it a warning, or break the build in places were the old one is still being used.

user55340

The other thing to do is change the two argument version to call the three argument version.

overexchange

@MichaelT How would you differentiate an abstract data type with abstraction? we already discussed abstraction.

user55340

1:59 AM

@overexchange An abstract data type is a generalization of the implementation of the idea. If one was to use a car analogy - abstraction is like combustion; an abstract data type is an internal combustion engine. There are lots of ways to harness combustion and lots of ways to make an engine.

user55340

One can talk about the abstraction of the hardware. Or abstraction of the processor (moving from writing machine code to something higher level - like C). Or abstraction of the operating system (its posix - don't need to worry about anything else). Or abstraction of the database (is it Oracle? MySQL? Sqlite? Dunno... don't care).

user55340

Data abstraction is the one that leads us to the abstract data types. And in some languages, thats what you start with. Perl for example, has a list, hash (map/table), and scalar (a thing). That's fairly abstract to start with.

user55340

There are general high level models that we have for the different data types that have certain properties for how they work. Its a list, map, queue, stack, set, tree, graph... and so on. And by talking about those we can exchange ideas more easily than talking about the specific implementation. I'd hate to have to describe a stack each time I wanted to talk about it.

user55340

By having a common language of abstract data types that we can use (they are Patterns), it allows us also to have less conceptual load when using them. I see 'Stack' I know immediately how it works and what I can use it for without having to dig into its innards to see "oh, push, pop..."

user55340

Also, ADTs transcend languages. A stack is a stack is a stack. Be it written in Basic, or pascal, or fortran or C or Java. This allows us to share algorithms between them without needing to worry about the specifics of the implantation in each case.

user55340

2:12 AM

(btw, just realized that Liskov of the Leskov substitution principle was Barbra Liskov - hurray for female computer scientists... her doctoral advisor was John McCarthy)

user55340

Barbara Liskov

Barbara Liskov (born November 7, 1939 as Barbara Jane Huberman) is an American computer scientist who is an institute professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Ford Professor of Engineering in its School of Engineering's electrical engineering and computer science department. == Life and career == Liskov was born in 1939 California, the eldest of Jane (née Dickhoff) and Moses Huberman's four children. She earned her BA in mathematics at the University of California, Berkeley in 1961. In 1968 Stanford University made her one of the first women in the United States to be awarded...

user55340

Another of those names to put out there when they say that "women can't code" along with Grace Hopper... the more names the better.

user15026

This reminds me, I should study.

user55340

@AshleyNunn saw the thing about pulling the book about Barbie writing code?

user15026

@MichaelT yeah, and the Feminist Hacker Barbie hashtag on Twitter of people improving the book (and hacking the site of the woman who made the generator for them to use)

user55340

2:19 AM

(back to ADTs) can't find any unauthorized versions of the article - dl.acm.org/… - but the abstract says quite a bit too:

user55340

>
The motivation behind the work in very-high-level languages is to ease the programming task by providing the programmer with a language containing primitives or abstractions suitable to his problem area. The programmer is then able to spend his effort in the right place; he concentrates on solving his problem, and the resulting program will be more reliable as a result. Clearly, this is a worthwhile goal. Unfortunately, it is very difficult for a designer to select in advance all the abstractions which the users of his language might need. If a language is to be used at all, it is likely …

user20683

sings "all you need is List", do dee do dee do...."

user55340

As an aside, Barbra Liskov is still publishing (most recently 2014), has 144 publications to her name (1971 - 2014) and 4200 citations (I suspect thats a sizable number).

user20683

List list, list is all you need

user20683

:P

user55340

2:24 AM

There's nothing you can sort that can't be sorted
Nothing you can store that can't be stored
Nothing you can link, but you can learn how to reverse the links
Its easy...

user55340

(yea, not my best work)

user55340

My favorite filk is still: poppyfields.net/filks/00034.html

user55340

> Is this in real time? Is this in memory?
Caught in a for(;;) loop, no escape from this subroutine...
open() your files, branch through the do{}while()s and see
I'm just the kernel, I need no libraries
Because you boot me up, load and go
Branch from high, store to low
Any way the thread flows
Doesn't really matter to me
To me.

unlink() just killed a file
Filled it's data up with NULLs, cleared the inode, closed the holes
vfork(), life had just begun
Then kill(0, SIGKILL) blew it all away
mmap(), ooooooh, didn't mean to make it die

user20683

I.is(he) for you.is(he) in you.is(me)

user15026

@MichaelT Damn it I am singing this in my head now

user55340

2:26 AM

@AshleyNunn ok... lets see if this helps...

user55340

> Long, long, time ago, I can still remember
How UNIX used to make me smile...
And I knew that with a login name
That I could play those UNIX games
And maybe hack some programs for a while.
But February made me shiver
With every program I'd deliver
Bad news on the doorstep,
I couldn't take one more spec...
I can't remember getting smashed
When I heard about the system crash
And all the passwords got rehashed
The Day That UNIX Died...
And I was singing:
Chorus: Bye, bye, nroff, rogue and vi
Gave my program to Phil Levy but Phil Levy was high,

user15026

@MichaelT Oh man, now I don't know which I like better

user55340

> It's eight o'clock on a Monday,
The programming crowd staggers in,
There's a user by my terminal,
With drool running off of his chin.
He says, "Son, can you code me some processing,
I'm not really sure what I want,
But it's short and it's sweet and it's NP-complete
And it has to be finished by lunch."

Chorus:
They say, "Write us some code, you're the DP man,
Write us some code today,
'Cause we need this report for the CEO,
And he wants it by yesterday."

user15026

@MichaelT Okay, the source for this is one of my favourite songs, so it might win

user55340

(btw - go browse poppyfields.net/filks if you have time to kill)

user55340

2:29 AM

That was the 'professional' version... the academic version goes like this:

user55340

> It's 10 AM on a Wednesday
The regular crowd shuffles in
There's an old man up at the blackboard
Getting off on programs that "win"
He says "Son, you will build an automata
I'm not really sure how it goes
But its cycles are neat
And I knew it complete
When I wore an undergrad's clothes"

(Chorus)
Write me some code, you're a computer man
Write me some code tonight
I expect you'll be thinking of suicide
If your program's not running tonight.

overexchange

@AshleyNunn i need an info wrt IT market in Canada, because am amidst process to gain PR status(family) of Canada Jan next year. Can i ask you on the same?

user55340

(or we can go Canadian with...

user55340

> The legend lives on from the management on down
In the big town they call Cupertino
At Apple, it's said, they will shoot products dead
When the stocks and the market turn gloomy
With a load of RAM chips, forty-eight thousand bytes fit
That the Apple ][ main board weighed loaded
That good CPU was a bone to be chewed
When reality distortion came early
The ][ was the pride of Wozniak's side
Of the Homebrew Computer Club meeting
As the new units went it was better than most
With a ROM and dot graphics well reasoned

user15026

@overexchange You can, now if my info is any good is a whole other matter, as I am not exactly an IT professional myself, although I find myself surrounded by them)

user15026

2:32 AM

@MichaelT I can't think of the origin song for this. I am bad at Canadian.

user55340

►

user15026

@MichaelT The worst was I knew the tune I needed but not the words as they were originally

overexchange

@AshleyNunn Do you recommend me to apply for a job in Canada only after getting PR status? because it is risky to move to Canada with PR and without a job.

user55340

@AshleyNunn Should visit the UP some day - shipwreckmuseum.com/saultstemarie

user55340

@overexchange they don't exactly like that... (I've had trouble with visiting without a job)

user15026

2:36 AM

@overexchange I don't know a lot about current immigration requirements, but I know that they are going to expect you have some way to provide for yourself, or they are likely to deny the application.

overexchange

provide myself in person?

user15026

Heck, like @MichaelT said, it's hard to even visit if they suspect you won't be able to provide for yourself while you are here (or can guarantee someone else will be doing so)

user15026

@overexchange Like they are going to want proof that you have income or something so you can house/feed/take care of yourself and any dependents (children, etc).

user15026

Otherwise they are going to worry that you will just be a burden on Canada's social system and healthcare system

user55340

When I visited Canada in '09 (just driving through - Banf and Waterton where my destinations), I didn't have a job. They sent me back to the US util I could provide evidence that I could be in Canada for the duration of my stay without needing to get a job. They wanted my bank statement.

user15026

2:39 AM

@MichaelT Yeah, that's what I mean, they can and will ask for proof of income or proof that someone can provide for you.

user55340

(and evidence of ties back in the US - that I had reason to leave)

user15026

@MichaelT Yep, that's common. I got asked that when I went to NYC, and I was like "I have an apartment and a cat and family and a degree I am working on at university"

overexchange

@AshleyNunn i know the current immigration requirements and am all ready with them including income proof, but after i get PR, how do i make sure that am safe with a job before entering canada(with PR status) instead of spending money until i get a job?

user15026

@overexchange That I can't help you with - I am far from a lawyer. Short of getting an employer to sponsor you to come in the first place, or making sure you have enough savings to convince the powers that be that you can take care of yourself until you can get a job (and have desirable employability, in terms of what you can do in the first place)

overexchange

@MichaelT how did you inititally(first entry) enter Canada without income proof? they would have verified all the evidence of income or did u run out of money later?

user55340

2:43 AM

@overexchange I drove to the customs / entry spot... they asked when I said I didn't have a job (don't lie to border officers).

user15026

I mean I've lived here for my entire life. I know some things from my mom doing the PR/citizenship thing, but her family was sponsored by my great-uncle who was already here and rich enough/connected enough to the farming community to help them out til they got it all figured out.

user15026

@MichaelT Yes, this is the best advice I can give - be honest. They will know when you lie, don't make it harder than it has to be.

user55340

At the time I had just gotten laid off from Netapp. I had cashed out my options and put them in the bank. As part of the 'pick my brain before I go' part, they were paying me 2x wages.. and I'm rather thrifty. My checking account was very solid 5... twice over (two accounts).

overexchange

@MichaelT Despite you had income you bring along from US to support your family until you get a job?

user55340

I went back to the US side (they asked me why I didn't have an entry into Canada and was returning to the US), went to an ATM, got a statement, and went back. They checked the account number on the statement against my debit card (which had my name) against my drivers license (which had my name).

user15026

2:45 AM

@overexchange He wasn't living here, he was just travelling through, so their expectations from him are going to be very different from you coming to claim PR status

user55340

I'm still quite single. Supporting a family is rather trivial for me.

user55340

They wanted to make sure I could afford about $200 CND/day for the duration of my stay. I easily had that much.

user15026

Like I know for example if I want to sponsor someone, at minimum I need to be making 30k a year, and prove that the person is someone who has close ties to me (aka family/spouse) and a variety of other things.

overexchange

@AshleyNunn am not looking for any employer as sponsor before i enter Canada, what i would like to know is, after i gain PR approval, staying here in my country , does employer(in canada) encourage to apply for a job and be available on phone or does employer expect me to be in person?

user15026

@overexchange That is likely going to depend on the individual employer.

user15026

2:50 AM

Some will be okay with that, and some won't consider you until you are here.

user15026

I mean the bigger the company, the more likely they will accept phone/Skype/etc interviews or the like before you get here, but it's not something that I will be able to speak with any authority over, being not employed in IT and not someone who makes hiring decisions for any company

Ampt

All canadian employers only interview over Bing Video Chat.

It is known.

overexchange

@AshleyNunn as you said: (I've had trouble with visiting without a job), Did you enter with PR status without a job? what was your experience?

Ampt

@overexchange well... she lives there so... I'm guessing not hard

user15026

@overexchange I think you misunderstood me, I've never lived anywhere BUT Canada

user55340

2:54 AM

user15026

I've done research on it and watched family go through some parts, but I'm Canadian, always have been

overexchange

@Ampt my office colleague left to canada with PR status but yet to get a job, he has a small little daughter to take care.

user15026

@MichaelT Oh hey, that's a thing?

user15026

Shiny.

user55340

even has a canada tag, 'eh.

user15026

2:55 AM

Nice :)

overexchange

@MichaelT Oh man, i love this site, still in beta?

user55340

255

Expatriates – expatriates.stackexchange.com

Beta Q&A site for people living abroad on a long-term basis.

Currently in public beta.

user55340

It still needs some work.

user55340

Still young enough, too, that you don't see "when will we graduate" questions on their meta.

user55340

(for that matter, only 70 questions on their meta...)

overexchange

2:59 AM

@AshleyNunn my office colleague recently entered Canada with PR status without a job. there is a mental pressure on him until he gets a job, because he has a little daughter along. one need to enter canada within 8-10 months after PR approval, so their was no choice other than moving to canada without a job

i need to avoid such scenario, beforeentering Canada, thats the whole point

user15026

Yes, and I have told you basically all I can. I am really not the best person to ask - I'd suggest trying to find people who have done this very thing - possibly using the site @MichaelT mentioned, as asking a citizen about this isn't necessarily the best idea because I have a very different perspective than the one you are seeking.

overexchange

yes i understand that

Robert Harvey

What is this, poetry night?

Ampt

@RobertHarvey Caaan you feeeeel the looooove toooniiighht

user15026

Whiteboard open mic night?

user55340

3:08 AM

@RobertHarvey poppyfields.net/filks/bandindex.html

Ampt

@AshleyNunn let me go grab another glass of wine real quick, then we can do summer of '69

user15026

@Ampt Only if I get a glass too

Ampt

it's Turning Leaf Riesling (sp?). Very good

and there is always wine for she-who-bakes-cupcakes

user55340

Riesling is nice... turing leaf is... major market.

user55340

Its like a budwiser of wine.

Ampt

3:10 AM

sure, it's not the classiest of wines

but I think it tastes good

My GF and I are just getting into the wine market

user55340

Just don't tell me you drink arbor mist.

user15026

I don't really know wine

user20683

Arbor Mist is wine + juice

Ampt

@AshleyNunn we should start a wine tasting night

user15026

Other than I like it fruity with bubbles (which likely makes me bad at wine)

user55340

3:11 AM

@AshleyNunn I lived in California for over a decade... and then up here I've found the "country wines"

Ampt

This riesling is fruity, which we like

user20683

where in it is an insult to wine and to juice

user15026

@WorldEngineer which?

user15026

Never mind, I followed

user55340

You can buy Arbor Mist at Walmart.

user15026

3:12 AM

@MichaelT I am not sure if you can here

user15026

I doubt it

user55340

Well, that's canada... you've got different regulations on alcohol.

user15026

@MichaelT Yeeeep, we most certainly do

user15026

(This reminds me, it is winter beer season pretty much!)

user55340

walmart.com/tp/arbor-mist

user15026

3:14 AM

I've yet to find wines I like because I am too busy finding beers I like, and wine bottles are more committment

user55340

The wines I've found I like the best are Tenbra ridge... and that's by visiting only. Not enough made to sell them in stores (and the owner doesn't really care to go through those hoops - he's got enough people driving out to his place without the hassle)

user20683

@AshleyNunn This is why I like Ports, they keep forever

user55340

@Ampt if you see some Wollersheim wollersheim.com in the stores you should look at it. IIRC, the Prairie Fume is one that would match your taste for reisliing.

user15026

@WorldEngineer Well, yes, but if I hate it, it is a lot more to waste

user55340

Look at their white wines - wollersheim.com/wines/whitewine

user55340

3:16 AM

two different rieslings and also one called 'river gold' that nicely sweet.

user55340

(the winery is a bit north of Madison)

user55340

@Ampt for the winter, see if you can find some Cedarburg Spice - cedarcreekwinery.com/?q=wines/CedarburgSpice (they're a bit north of Milwaukee)

user55340

Actually, given their location... you could do a winery tour and tasting.

user55340

Looking at random prices, I think that Wollersheim and Ceaderburg appear to be cheaper than the various internet prices for Turning Leaf.

Ampt

It's like 2.99 here

can't beat that price lol

user20683

3:21 AM

@Ampt 2 buck and a half Chuck :P

user55340

well... you should go up to Cedarburg and check out their wines.

Ampt

@WorldEngineer hey... when we're just getting into it we want to try lots of stuff for cheap before we invest in double digit bottles of wine!

@MichaelT i'm going to have to

user55340

@Ampt go up there... try a pinot grigiro, the waterfall riesling, cranberry blush, settlement gold, spice, and christmas blush.

user15026

My problem is I don't like how a lot of wines feel in my face

Ampt

@AshleyNunn stop dumping them on your face?

user55340

3:24 AM

Hm... maybe the Gewürztraminer too... though I haven't had that variety so I can't say.

user55340

@AshleyNunn thats why you're supposed to go to a tasting room and try them.

Ampt

I'm not even sure where my nearest tasting room would be...

I'm thinking that's a california thing

user55340

@Ampt they're typically with the winery.

user55340

Nope... I've had tastings at River Bend, Autumn Harvest, Tenbra Ridge and Wollersheim.

user55340

Its more a winery thing.

user55340

3:26 AM

Until you get a large enough market (and then you're in California often) where they can have tastings for many wines.

Ampt

ah, ok

user55340

cedarcreekwinery.com/wineryvisit/winetasting

user55340

> A selection of our wines is available to sample in our tasting room overlooking the beautiful Cedar Creek waterfall that flows at the heart of Historic Cedarburg.

Our four Featured Wines are available for tasting at no charge. Three additional wines may be tasted for $2.00. Wine tastings are offered anytime during the day and at the conclusion of each tour. You must be 21 years old or older to taste or purchase wine.

user55340

My parents are case club members at Wollersheim... if you drink enough wine to get to the point where you are in the case club sometimes they have special events. The wollershiem case club tasting had about half a dozen stations where you could try one of three wines at each spot (including the ice wine... oh man... talk about sweet)

user55340

the plan being then, that you go and buy another case of wine (12 bottles).

user55340

3:29 AM

Just missed the one for Cedarburg this year - cedarcreekwinery.com/news/caseclubevents

user55340

> Holiday Caseclub Member Tasting
Saturday & Sunday, November 8 & 9, 2014
Saturday: 10-4
Sunday: 11-4

A special invitation event exclusively for our Caseclub Members and their guests only. Members are invited to taste all of our wines, carefully paired with food and Wisconsin cheese, as they stroll leisurely through our underground cellars. Enjoy holiday shopping without the holiday pressure and enjoy some wine. (Members will see an invitation in the mail mid-October.)

Note: The winery will be open for shopping and complimentary tasting during these two days. However, due to this special …

user15026

@MichaelT I wouldn't even know where to begin with that

user55340

@Ampt when you feel like you want to splurge... get some ice wine: wollersheim.com/wines/IceWine

user15026

@MichaelT Oh man, have you ever had ice cider?

user55340

@AshleyNunn once.

user55340

3:31 AM

(when I say splurge: see wollersheim.com/wines/SeasonalOther )

user15026

@MichaelT I really like it. I've had ice wine once - a local friend made some one year and gave it to people as gifts.

user55340

@AshleyNunn find one of these vqaontario.com/Wineries/NiagaraPeninsula and then try out the wines there. The thing is to make sure you try a number of them. Different varieties.

user55340

Find one with a tasting room and... well... enjoy.

user15026

That would be fun

user55340

Not sure about your social life, but I've often seen a 'girls day out' type event where a bunch of women go to one or more tasting rooms in an area.

Ampt

3:47 AM

That sounds like a lot of work though... I may just stick to my cheap ~~budweiser~~ wine and catch pokemon

user15026

I would have no idea if this was a thing because I am bad at paying attention, but now I feel like I should look

user55340

@Ampt I'm not sure you would be an appropriate person in a 'girls day out' (unless a designated driver)

Ampt

@MichaelT psh, I'm gonna be a bridesmaid next october!

faaabulous!

user15026

@Ampt See, my usual question would be "what colour is the dress" but I have no idea how to approach this

user55340

though I can speak of the deliciousness of the ceaderburg wines that I've mentioned... and you should be able to find them in your local store. The grocery store near me has a 'wisconsin wines' section for just local wines.

Ampt

3:49 AM

@AshleyNunn We're thinking grey.

In all honesty I'll likely be wearing a tux that matches the guys

user55340

@AshleyNunn see, you need to choose bridesmaids attire so that they don't look more pretty than the bride. Selecting an all male contingent makes for very awkward times on the dance floor that the bride can look at and laugh, along with being sure of "still the prettiest"

user15026

@MichaelT Very smart

Ampt

there may be a dress in there somewhere for a few minutes for some laughs, but I can't imagine drinking/dancing in a dress

user55340

@Ampt go with a kilt.

user15026

@Ampt dresses are complicated

Ampt

3:51 AM

@MichaelT oooohhhh I totally hadn't even considered that

user15026

I want a super pretty one when I get married but then I am scared that first dance I do I will like trip over it and make a mess of things

Ampt

@AshleyNunn I've been told I have the butt to pull it off.. not sure how to take that...

user15026

@Ampt I dunno. I don't know what that entails. I know I have a decently large butt, no idea if it is a good butt for dresses :P

user55340

@Ampt you recall that bit about the Lounge incident? The key word? Add that to a search for 'bridesmaid dress' and make sure safe search is off.

user15026

@MichaelT oh god anything my brain comes up with for this is NOT GOOD

Ampt

3:53 AM

I just did it and even bracing myself for it I was shocked and confused...

why

why have you done this

user20683

Lounge as in C++

user20683

As in "why would you even?"

user55340

@AshleyNunn its the message near this one:

user55340

4 hours ago, by MichaelT

Still think that Robert needs to persuade SE to make the lounge's room title change every 30 seconds for the next April Fools.

user15026

@MichaelT yeah, I knew which word you were referencing. Not sure I wanna know what images would come up for that combined set of terms

Ampt

3:55 AM

just do it. It's worse than you could imagine

particularly image 5

user15026

@Ampt why why is this a thing

Ampt

@AshleyNunn I don't know. the fact that there is more than one dress in this vein makes me very, very concerned

user15026

@Ampt That's what gets me, that this is a thing that happened more than one time. More than one person thought this was a great idea.

Ampt

not even great, but worthy of actually making. in real life. and apparently wearing

user15026

People are crazy

user15026

3:58 AM

when/if someone decides to marry me, this is not a fashion I will indulge in.

Ampt

yeah that would be a deal breaker

shes got an engagement ring, we've got a date, and she pulls that dress out? See you later!

user15026

Yeaaaah. I think I will go for something a bit classier, if I end up doing the thing. :)

Ampt

My Gfs latest thing is watching all the wedding dress shows... I'm hoping it's a fad

user55340

@AshleyNunn see, there's an easy solution to this problem... cheap too.

user55340

8

Q: Considerations for Photographing a Nude Wedding

I'm an amateur photographer that has helped out on a couple of wedding shoots for friends and family. I've been approached by someone looking for a photographer willing to shoot a nude wedding. I have no idea of the venue or whether the wedding will take place indoors or outdoors, but can anyone ...

wedding nude-photography

user15026

4:00 AM

Yeah, um.....

user15026

I don't think that is an option I want to take

user55340

@AshleyNunn think of how much you would save on dress rental. And worries about the bridesmaid dresses.

Ampt

Yeeeah... but think of trying to find bridesmaids that agree

user15026

@MichaelT While I am a thrifty sort, I think I can splurge a little in this instance.

user15026

@Ampt There is that as well

user55340

4:02 AM

@AshleyNunn you could splurge a bit more on mosquito repellant and sunscreen... maybe even enough to first go to the Caribbean and get a nice tan.

Ampt

I think @MichaelT just wants the challenge of shooting a nude wedding.

user20683

nude wedding is not going to happen

user15026

Oh good, we agree!

Ampt

welp, it's a date. I'll expect the invite in the mail!

user15026

Because if we didn't, and only one of us showed up nude, that could get awkward quick

user15026

4:04 AM

mind you, this is all hypothetical, because I've no current plans to even think about the logistics of weddings

user55340

@Ampt actually... its a landline of problems. While you don't have to worry about the dynamic range as much (white dress + black tux == problems), the subtle tonal differences are more challenging... and I'd really want to make sure its an all 18+ event so I don't end up in prison.

user15026

Too many other adventures first

user55340

@AshleyNunn so tempted to star...

Ampt

I did clear the pin list earlier.... It's just begging for a new pin

user15026

@MichaelT The Bridge already would have :P

Ampt

4:06 AM

not-the-bridge

user15026

Which is okay by me

user55340

room topic changed to The Whiteboard: General Discussion for Programmers Stack Exchange. Pants optional when telecommuting. [good-booze] [horror-stories] [monads] [my-code-is-compiling] [not-the-bridge] [parsing-errors] [the-other-monitor]

Ampt

also-not-the-comms

user20683

@Ampt best not to tempt fate

Ampt

Well if it went the way we didn't like we could just start our own chat room!

user20683

4:08 AM

@Ampt This is our own chatroom

Ampt

other-people-do-things-different-from-the-way-i-do-things-so-i-feel-the-need-to-belittle-them

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