The Whiteboard

Stan R.

6:00 PM

i mean that was is a simple "can you code?" question

user41796

and that's key - understanding when a throw-away snippet of code is all that's expected

Stan R.

its not really solve an algorithm question

user41796

in my case, it's an intentional gate

user41796

and I'll tolerate a flub at the onset of that question

user41796

but I expect a degree of recovery as well

Stan R.

6:01 PM

im not sure how you can flop that question, but then again im not sure how i flopped my question.

user41796

over-thinking is the issue

Stan R.

so everything is possible when you're nervous

maple_shaft

while (!doneWithSex) {
if (intensity > THRESHOLD && thinkAboutBaseball.isEmpty()) {
doneWithSex = true;
if (!wife.isDoneWithSex())
throw new BitterResentmentException();
intensity++;
}
}

user41796

@maple_shaft - simply awesome

Stan R.

wish someone asked me to write that on an interview

psr

6:02 PM

I just started yelling the "fizzes" and "buzzes" out loud according to the algorithm. Though I think it was the improvised dance that cost me the job.

user41796

That's a go directly to HR and Legal interview question...

Stan R.

those are just names that algorithm can be doing something complety different ;)

user41796

@psr - THAT was you? Frak and we passed up hiring on you? </jk>

Stan R.

like..for instance seeing if a queue is empty

anyway im gonna get back to solve euler problems

user55340

_,､＿＿＿_＿＿＿___,,,､
｀y__////＿jニニニニﾆfi
〈_ﾌｿ￣ﾌ ,=-＿,,,,-┴─'
//o　/rて__/
,//三/ /￣"
〈｡ニ___/

Jimmy Hoffa

6:03 PM

@StanR. if you are competent as you describe it may be for the best. lots of people have no idea how to actually interview people, if the interviewer can't make it clear to you what they're trying to find out if you know, that's a bit of a problem for them. When trying to find out what someone knows on a topic, it should be explicit to them what the topic is

user55340

@psr when you paste it, a new button shows up "fixed font"

psr

@MichaelT - Not for me it didn't.

Jimmy Hoffa

Asking a question in the form of "How would you..." when you want one particular answer, is kind of a trick question, if you want one particular answer you should ask them if they know about that technique and have them explain it to you

user41796

@StanR. - also look into tips for setting your emotional state when going into an interview. It sounds like some of the issue is your getting wrapped around the axle when you just need to breath and let it take it's course.

user55340

just type some text
hit shift return
and look what is to the right of the input box

Stan R.

6:05 PM

@JimmyHoffa not if it means anything, i do have a decent rep on SO. So obviously I am not by any means dumb, I've dealt with a lot of anxiety in my life on a personal level and have overcome it personally, but performance anxiety is one thing that is really affecting my life right now

psr

@MichaelT - Ah, I don't usually hit shift return.

Stan R.

as I am having difficulty explaining to the interviewer that I am not dumb, just nervous.

user41796

@StanR. - don't forget to offer up your SO / SE userID then. I make it a point to ask my candidates for their ID and I do look up their profiles

user41796

of course, I'm a bit biased... :-)

user55340

void foo() {
  print "Now you can argue about brace style";
}

Stan R.

6:07 PM

i do offer it, i only use my careers resume to begin with.

it means nothing when you cant solve a simple problem

user41796

@StanR. - true. Don't forget to send a "thank you" email regardless of your feelings about the interview

Stan R.

i also understand that the person interviewing you already knows the solution to the problem and are highly subjective from that point

user41796

IF there's a chance of turning their opinion, a follow-up email is the trick.

Jimmy Hoffa

@StanR. are you fresh out of college or have you been a working dev for a while?

Stan R.

i have 10 years of experience

in NYC

i can answer/design any .NET questions regarding OO, design patterns, their usage..etc

I can answer and write out on the fly all the major data structures, sorts and explain their running time complexities and why they perform the way they perform

user41796

6:10 PM

@StanR. - no wonder you're overthinking the questions then... ;-)

Stan R.

but when im face to face and the person expects me to write a solution in linear time and my brain is thinking of a completely different problem

i was asked to find the maximum sum in a continous array

my brain thought he said "find and store the sequence that makes the max sum

so im thinking binary heap, dictionary..etc

store the start index..and the last index

im thinking double ended queue

user41796

think. simpler. For loop and be done.

Stan R.

this is because ive been doing a princeton university course on algorithms in the last few days i have been coding a ton

Jimmy Hoffa

@StanR. If you've 10 years experience, do your best to imagine it just like a requirements gathering exercise with one of your colleagues you work with every day

user41796

or at least start with the super simple aspect (I ignored the "continuous" part) and then evolve

Stan R.

6:12 PM

yeh the continous part and you cant skip

user41796

@JimmyHoffa - that's a brilliant suggestion

Stan R.

yeh @JimmyHoffa i try to pretend im talking to a colleague

psr

@StanR. - Once something has gone wrong, explaining that you have a problem getting nervous in interviews and then telling them what you are telling us now might work. Interviewers do know that interviews are a highly artificial environment, it's just hard form them to do much about that fact.

Stan R.

well i asked for a different question

user41796

ouch

Stan R.

6:13 PM

i said i was for some reason highly nervous

user41796

you don't get to ask for another question. It's not like a quiz show. :-)

user41796

I agree with psr's comments - explaining that you freeze up during interviews is perfectly valid.

Phil

There might also be something to be said for not being focused on impressing the interviewers

It's not a matter of convincing them to hire you, but more of a matter of allowing them to see if you're the right match

Stan R.

@GlenH7 i solved the problem first

but when i realizes that i did terribly

fumbled a lot

user41796

for me, since I don't know jack about continuous arrays, I'd start with the simple case. And then as Jimmy suggested, start eliciting additional requirements from the interviewer. The trick is to drive to answering the question that was asked but breaking it down to make sure you're demonstrating some degree of knowledge with the question

Stan R.

6:15 PM

..etc.. i asked to be given another problem

Phil

And also a matter of making sure the company is a right match for you

user41796

oh, just circle back to your solution then

user41796

and call out your concerns about it

Stan R.

i did

lol

i said it was quadratic and im sure there is a linear way

he had to literally hold my hand for me to solve it...which is stupid

i couldve solved it on my own, but obviously i dont have time to sit around trying different things...

Jimmy Hoffa

@StanR. Keep in mind: Worst case scenario, you can always just start yelling and run out of the building; so there's always an exit strategy.

Stan R.

6:17 PM

@JimmyHoffa i usually get offers from companies im not too excited working for

and i bomb interviews at companies im really excited for

clearly..im overly anxious to impress and perform that i completely lock up.

Jimmy Hoffa

Work on something beforehand to yell so you have it in your back pocket like "I don't know anything about isomorphic arrows! Why do the computations always end up decidable! This just isn't going to work!!!"

user41796

@StanR. - sounds like you're running up against more strict interviewers than I am. If you had answered the question and then said how you would go about improving it, I'd call that a passing answer. I'm not looking for the perfect solution in an interview

user41796

I am looking for a solution and an understanding of where you'd start looking to fix it.

Stan R.

"this problem is P = NP complete is this some sort of joke !!!! SCREW YOU GUYS !!!"

thats my exit line

then i tackle anyone standing in my way to the elevator

Yannis Rizos

@Morons Sorry, got called in a meeting.

@RobertHarvey Here now.

Jimmy Hoffa

6:19 PM

@StanR. perfect. Now next time someone stresses you in an interview you'll think about your exit strategy and start laughing maniacally, they'll hire you for sure!

Stan R.

yeah, for sure.

i'll tell them @JimmyHoffa gave me the inspiration

that'll put me over the top

Jimmy Hoffa

Sweet, a reference, maybe I'll get a job out of it too

Stan R.

i hope so

user41796

@JimmyHoffa - didn't know you were looking again already. :-)

Yannis Rizos

@StanR. Interviews are always fun for me, it's when I get to be truly evil.

Mar 8 at 19:42, by Yannis Rizos

I used to show a 1K loc SQL query to candidates during interviews and ask them to explain it to me. Those that didn't broke into tears got the job. (Dirty little secret: I had no idea what the query was about)

Stan R.

6:24 PM

lol

to be fair most interviewers find these problems somewhere on the web

and already know the answers to them

i hate coding interviews because it doesnt ask you to think in an abstract way, it asks you to write out code for a very narrow problem...

im always better at "tell me how you'd go about solving this problem..."

Jimmy Hoffa

@StanR. I'm the exact opposite

user55340

@JimmyHoffa Nah... go for the break down crying and sobbing "But I can't code without line numbers like BASIC"

Stan R.

instead of "write a function that solves this problem.."

user41796

@StanR. - FWIW, I ask a mix of both

Yannis Rizos

Every time I was asked to interview candidates, I told management that I'm not the best man for the job. And they insisted, no idea why.

Stan R.

6:26 PM

well i dont mind asking to write code to see if the person can indeed write code

but i would be more interested in how one would go about solving a problem

which data structure he would use

etc..

user41796

@YannisRizos - bring your mgmt here to the whiteboard the next time and we'll help explain to them...

Yannis Rizos

@GlenH7 That's all in the past, I'm management now. Which I guess also creates wonderful opportunities for me to be truly evil.

user41796

@StanR. - a good whiteboarding session should provide both aspects. yes, I need to perform a gate check and make sure the candidate can code. More importantly, I need to understand how they think and how well they pick up on constructive corrections. FizzBuzz is a silly exercise, but it lets me see how the candidate thinks.

Jimmy Hoffa

@YannisRizosBoss: Yannis is nuts, seriously, you should get liability insurance and a notarized forfeiture of rights to sue for any interviewee in the same room as him.

psr

@StanR. There will usually be at least one question that just wants to make sure you really know the language you said you did. Don't assume every question is targeted at geniuses unless the company has a reputation for doing that in interviews.

@GlenH7 - I misread "whiteboarding" as "waterboarding" for a second there.

Jimmy Hoffa

6:30 PM

@psr yannis probably already tried that

Yannis Rizos

I can neither confirm nor deny that.

Stan R.

thanks for your suggestion guys

my main problem is just performance anxiety

not if ands or but's

no*

thats just the bottom line, i don't perform well in an unfamiliar highly stressful environment.

user55340

@StanR. Classic anxiety reduction approach - picture everyone else in the room naked. This may not always be a good idea though.

Stan R.

there is no sugar coating it

Jimmy Hoffa

@StanR. It's a well-known problem at least; go study up on it and what people do etc.

Stan R.

6:33 PM

@JimmyHoffa like i said before i've dealt with anxiety all my life

and i know what TO DO

exposure...i.e. keep doing it over and over

until you are basically desensitized

but the problem is, by the time i'm done im gonna lose all my chances at workin for good companies

i dont wanna bomb an interview at Google just so i can get some practice..you know what i mean?

user55340

Few companies will put you on a black list... they will have another opening in a few weeks or months...

Jimmy Hoffa

@StanR. There's other approaches, like eating copious amounts of food ahead of time, or learning a new language and beginning to speak that instead claiming no knowledge of the previously used one

Stan R.

you guys think its professional to re-apply after a few months?

Jimmy Hoffa

Absolutely.

Stan R.

im not sure about that, i've never done that...

user55340

6:35 PM

And honestly, google is not all that is cracked up to be... especially if you are over 30.

Stan R.

hmm..

user41796

@StanR. worst they'll say is "no thanks, no interview"

Jimmy Hoffa

It shows the interest in the position is genuine which means if hired the person would be motivated to do the job

Stan R.

@MichaelT i was just using it as an example

user41796

At one place, we had a serial applier

Stan R.

6:36 PM

lol

Jimmy Hoffa

lots of people interview opportunistically but may not really care about the job, re-applicants actually want that job

user41796

but said person was not qual'd for the role. So they were always declined

user55340

One of the worries that a company has with someone who is highly qualified is flight risk. Interviewing multiple times shows interest in the company and a reduction of flight risk.

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 did they show growth each time or fail in the same ways every time?

Stan R.

interviewers actually think about this?

i always feel like they forget who you are after 4 hours..

user41796

6:37 PM

@JimmyHoffa - no growth; essentially same resume over and over and over. Shotgun blast type applicant

Yannis Rizos

@StanR. Depends on the interviewer. Personally, I thought of waffles during almost every interview.

Jimmy Hoffa

@StanR. good ones. Note: Good interviewers are surprisingly rare, but so are good companies so that's just the way things go..

user55340

As an interviewer in the past, for someone who was applying for entry level and had WAY too much to be entry level... yes. And I said "no, don't hire this person into this position." as my recommendation.

user41796

@StanR. - you'd hate to see what I do for prep work even before I'll green-light a candidate to be screened by HR

Jimmy Hoffa

@YannisRizos maybe you're a secret belgian

Stan R.

6:38 PM

you guys have been a lot of help, i appreciate it.

user55340

They got hired into it nonetheless, and 3 months later, after getting trained on our apps, transferred to another part of the company...

user41796

We definitely consider previous experience & the position they're applying for. And if there's an obvious mismatch without explanation then we won't pursue. OTOH, if they address the mismatch up front, then they may get a green light

Stan R.

sorry im just bummed out today..takes a while to get over beating yourself up.

user41796

@StanR. remember that the fit needs to go both ways. You need to meet their skills needs, but they need to meet your needs to. May not have been a good company for you to work for

user41796

They still might be interesting to you, but they can be interesting without being a good match for you. I dodged that bullet two Octobers ago

Jimmy Hoffa

6:40 PM

@StanR. look at the bright side, you're not in @maple_shaft's shoes right now

Stan R.

i'v never worked at a company that has good work-life balance and culture

nyc is all cut throat.

user55340

@StanR. I've yet to see any.

Stan R.

i've seen good "attempts" at it

thats better then no attempts at all..

user55340

Companies always want as much as they can get. And if it looks like a nice place to work, its so you will stay later.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT whaa? I thought that's what you left silicon valley for, I've seen great work-life balance at most places I've worked..

Maybe I just don't look good to the places with bad work-life balance though, so they reject me and I don't find out. If that's the case, more power to me :)

user55340

6:42 PM

I left SV because I was laid off... moved back to the mid west to get a not SV internet time... I assure you, the schedules I have here are just as absurd (if not moreso because the business doesn't understand that we don't just snap our fingers and write code - rewriting 10k lines of code isn't a 1 day task)

Yannis Rizos

@StanR. Greece has a 35% unemployment rate right now, I'm getting resumes from phds for starter positions. I don't know how cut throat nyc is, but... don't come to Greece.

user55340

@YannisRizos I remeber the dot.com bust back about a decade ago in SV... PhD's working register at Blockbuster Video because they couldn't find a job.

Jimmy Hoffa

@YannisRizos "don't come to Greece" somebody joining the shining sun party or whatever it's called? heh

user55340

@YannisRizos I also bet you aren't hiring them... would you rather hire a PhD that will leave as soon as a better job comes along? or someone with an entry skill set that will still be with the company a few years from now?

Yannis Rizos

@MichaelT That's more or less what goes on here now, with the difference that it's not industry specific.

user55340

6:48 PM

@YannisRizos {politics}btw, Cyprus... WTF? Do you want to start a run on the banks?{/politics}

Yannis Rizos

@MichaelT To be honest, I have no idea. We have one position, and literally hundreds of resumes... On the one hand over-qualified is an issue, on the other they are not really a flight risk, because... where are they going to go? Most of our competitors closed shop or aren't in any position to hire for the next five years or so.

psr

@MichaelT - I'm actually starting to wonder if for some reason they really did want to start a run on the banks. If you know ahead of everyone else that a run will happen, you can make a lot of money on it. And it seems hard to believe they are too dumb to realize that's what they are doing.

Stan R.

i had an idea....im pretty sure i can pass all these interviews drunk...

user55340

@psr I, once again, invoke Hanlon's Razor.

user55340

Never underestimate the power of stupidity.

user41796

6:54 PM

@StanR. - as a professional, I could never advise you to interview in such a manner. If it was detected that you were in an altered state, you've likely exited the interview process. But if you know very well how you respond to a glass or two, then that's a well known way to reduce anxiety.

Yannis Rizos

@MichaelT I'm consciously avoiding following the news about that. It's a f'ing mess, but we got our own problems over here and it's already hard enough to follow the news about our own stuff.

Stan R.

@GlenH7 i know, i was being funny

user55340

Apparently, the money that Cyprus has in its banks is several times the size of the GNP of the country. Its a tax haven of the mediterranean (think Cayman Islands)... and in order to get a bailout from the EU, they need to tax something... and looked at the savings accounts of wealthy russians hiding money there.

user55340

(The news is making the rounds in the US channels that aren't completely focused on how one party or the other is messing up... which is the majority of the news here)

Morons

@StanR. i don't think your anxiety is the issue. People understand anxiety

Stan R.

6:58 PM

what do you think it is?

Morons

it most likely your lack of confidance

Stan R.

agreed.

the two go hand in hand in my opinion

the lack of confidence produces anxiety

Morons

i have to heard to meeting... be back in 20

Stan R.

anxiety produces bad output, which results in a rejection and hence confirmation of lack of confidence

pretty nasty negative feedback loop

Yannis Rizos

@MichaelT The core of the issue is that the Cypriot govt. thought a small deposit tax would be a better idea than only going after deposits over 100,000 euros. Obviously, that didn't sit well with the majority of the population.

...and it all went downhill from there.

Morons

7:07 PM

im back... biggest waste of 5 min ever

@StanR. why are you so nervous?

Stan R.

very valid questio

Morons

@YannisRizos but wont people just stop putting there money in the bank

Stan R.

because they'll give me a question i wont be able to answer

Morons

so?

Stan R.

do you always make this much sense?

Morons

7:09 PM

so what, you don't get a job you already didn't have!

Stan R.

but what if i really wanted it?

Morons

THAT'S THE WORST CASE

SO?!

user41796

@Morons - Stan is addressing a valid point. He likes the company / he's interested in the company. That raises the stakes dramatically.

Morons

No.

Stan R.

i dont want to go back to working at companies i don't really care for

Jimmy Hoffa

7:10 PM

@YannisRizos I just heard the legislature rejected the EU terms and are now putting together an internal fund managed by the government, wonder where they'll get the money for that though

user41796

You're right in that he should stop caring so much about the company. Makes it easier to be indifferent during the interview. But that can be hard to do

Stan R.

i want to contribute to society

Yannis Rizos

@Morons Well yes, but what about the money already in the banks? The first step was to limit how much you can get from an atm per day.

Morons

Interviewing is win win... You either get the job or You Loose nothing

user41796

@YannisRizos - Hugo Chavez had some ... interesting ... solutions to that problem.

Morons

7:11 PM

@YannisRizos they want to tax withdrawals?

Jimmy Hoffa

@Morons I think they were going to tax principles, who knows, they canned the whole idea though

Stan R.

I am at home..

midwood, brooklyn.

Morons

no shit?

where?

Stan R.

yep

ocean

and m

maybe i know you

Morons

No

Stan R.

7:14 PM

are you my friend ?!

lol

Morons

no

we never met

assuming stan is your real name ans that is your real pic

Stan R.

yep

are you saying you dont actually look like your avatar?

Morons

very funny

Stan R.

hehe

do you take the train to work?

Morons

yes

Stan R.

7:17 PM

ah i used to take a bus

Bm1,3,4

hate trains

Morons

i hate the bus

Stan R.

haha

i dont know.. i like looking out the window

ave

Morons

its a small world

Stan R.

yes it is

Morons

read the next blog post...

i think its going to be published monday

Stan R.

7:19 PM

which blog?

Morons

ours

Stan R.

crazy on tap?

Morons

programmers.blogoverflow.com

Stan R.

yeh im looking at it now

Morons

you didn't know of it?

Stan R.

7:22 PM

i did not, no

i barely ever go on programmers exchange

im mostly on Stack Overflow

Morons

how did you end up here?

Stan R.

ashamed i'll show you, programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/191460/…

came to ask a generic question, but knew it would be closed, then remembered that there is a chat...so decided to drop in and ask here.

Morons

I haven't interviewed for a Coder Position in 10 years (though still code a lot)

Stan R.

i havent in a while

Morons

back then we didn't get hit with complex algorithms type questions

Stan R.

7:27 PM

i grew a lot since i last interviewed (i.e. actually look for jobs that are a good match for me)

this time around, im older and smarter about my career i wanna work for the right company, or rather one that i care about the product

Morons

can you give me an example of one you got stumped on>

join a company that will enabul you to grow ... who gives a fuck about the product

Stan R.

well that too

i am looking for growth and motivation in terms of product

i give a fuck, because otherwise i dont feel like i accomplish anything with my career

user41796

@StanR. - my comment in your Q was more for anyone coming along later who read your question and that answer. Demian's advice is pretty spot-on, I think.

Stan R.

i know

i knew the question would be closed, but i got a good advice out of it

and came here and met you guys

Yannis Rizos

@StanR. So, you knowingly asked an off topic question? brb, suspending.

(yes, I'm kidding)

Jimmy Hoffa

7:39 PM

@YannisRizos No, he said he was going to but remembered there was a better way to ask us. I don't think his initial Q was knowingly off-topic

@StanR. were you directed to P.SE to ask that original question by someone from SO?

user41796

@YannisRizos - itchy fingers today? Always?

user41796

@JimmyHoffa - no, no. Go read the Q. He knew what he was doing. A bit surprising it only ran +/- 1 on the votes

Yannis Rizos

@JimmyHoffa If I'm actually suspending someone, there's absolutely no way I'd announce it publicly. It's strictly a private matter, no reason for anyone but me and the user in question to know anything about it.

Stan R.

im sorry if i posted an off topic question, i couldnt think of a better place to ask

and i figured programmers would help me out...

then i remembered about the chat, but i had posted the question already...

Yannis Rizos

@GlenH7 Always. But today I'm in a weird mood, first thing I saw when I logged in SE this morning was a "question" on Politics that referenced rape and paedophilia. I've seen tons (and tons) of crap on Programmers, but never something that bad.

user41796

7:45 PM

must've been about steubenville, that would be my guess

Jimmy Hoffa

I should hope programmers is never anywhere near as bad as politics.se...

user41796

<---- actively avoids Politics.SE

Stan R.

i avoid politics.se like the plague

user41796

@StanR. given that you weren't pounded with down-votes, the community didn't think too negatively of your question.

Yannis Rizos

Politics is... experimental. It's an extremely hard topic to get right within the confines of Stack Exchange. No idea if it will make it or not.

Jimmy Hoffa

7:46 PM

I poked around there the other day just out of random curiosity.. my impression: DVK argues with D.A. while Michael KingsMilll is busy looking for statistics somewhere

Stan R.

@GlenH7 i think this type of question is more often on peoples minds than you think.

Jimmy Hoffa

That was the appearance of almost every question I looked at

Stan R.

@YannisRizos politics is the definition of "no constructive or too localized or too subjective"

user41796

@StanR. never said it wasn't a good question, that it wasn't interesting, or that it wasn't relevant. Just not constructive for SE's Q&A format

Stan R.

agreed

user41796

7:48 PM

rule of thumb - RobertHarvey generally doesn't answer boring questions. :-)

Jimmy Hoffa

other rule of thumb - Take Robert Harvey's advice

Stan R.

well aside from project euler i do everything he says

i do have real life experience and a lot of it

user41796

believing in yourself can be a difficult task to work through. Learning to let go of a flubbed answer can also be equally difficult. I'd be working in a much different company now if I hadn't flubbed the same part of an interview about 8 years ago.

Stan R.

well to be fair the algorithm that the interviewer provided me with was wrong

i just realized that

maybe thats why i couldn't grok it

Jimmy Hoffa

@StanR. If it's particularly bad you can speak with a doc and get something to help. There are some things they prescribe specifically for performance anxiety that don't make you all loopy but mute the physical responses that you're only supposed to take when you have to perform, you don't have to take consistently

user41796

7:52 PM

ROFL. That's awesome. Put your suggestion in the thank you letter. And yes, you still need to send a thank you letter. Always thank the other person for the opportunity even if you know it didn't pan out.

Stan R.

i understand @JimmyHoffa i prefer the natural way (rest, exercise, diet) if you catch my drift

yeah i just tested his algorithm on a bunch of sets and it doesnt work in every case

user41796

honestly, if I got that in a thank you letter (along with the proof), I'd have you back on the phone.

Stan R.

i already sent a thank you letter..

user41796

I hire for personality characteristics along with ability

Stan R.

but...i just now figured out the issue

user41796

7:54 PM

if nothing else, now you've got a hilarious story to share the next time you get choked up during an interview

Jimmy Hoffa

9:09 PM

Wrestling all day with designing this overly generic bit of code I've been asked to try and prototype... finally found the solution, and it is a monad... proof I am on the wrong path. This is going to go over terribly.

user20683

@JimmyHoffa Maybe you need to join a Haskell shop?

Jimmy Hoffa

Great idea, find me one that accepts people who aren't complete geniuses then we'll talk

(Seriously, the only places that actually do haskell are only hiring literal geniuses, I don't count)

corp.galois.com being the big name everyone knows

user20683

@JimmyHoffa I qualify as a literal genius and I doubt they'd hire me

Jimmy Hoffa

other places only hiring quants

user20683

ah

Jimmy Hoffa

9:13 PM

@WorldEngineer If that's true then dig your teeth into category theory for 6 months and you'll get to work for one of those places

I could dig into category theory for years and it would still all wash straight out of my brain because that stuff is just too much for me

user20683

@JimmyHoffa to be fair, I don't really consider genius to be IQ

user20683

everyone has at least one genius

Jimmy Hoffa

What's that, like everyone has at least one buddha and one inner child?

user20683

@JimmyHoffa sorta?

Morons

9:25 PM

0

Q: How to create a backend server

I am wondering how to make a back-end server for free with PHP. Can I build it with a free PHP server? And if I build the back-end server can I add custom photo links like what Facebook does for example: https://fbstatic-a.akamaihd.net/rsrc.php/v2/y5/r/5rZZyXaEE2Q.png I am trying to create a ...

php

user41796

@Morons - it's about php, I'm sure @YannisRizos can answer it. ;-)

user41796

Holy crap google is fast. I searched on the link in that question. Came back with a google-whack to P.SE with that question ('natch).

Morons

The whole question is misguided

Jimmy Hoffa

gah how do you model non-determinism in a strongly typed way without algebraic data types...

user41796

is anyone else thinking that link was / is a bit dodgy? (re: backend server)

Jimmy Hoffa

9:33 PM

@GlenH7 was first thing I thought when I saw the Q, I didn't look any harder, it's just got the tell-tale gibberish naming of spammer domains (or foreign, which is often also a sign of being dodgy)

Go click it...

I didn't.

user20683

@JimmyHoffa I can activate a sandbox and check

user41796

@WorldEngineer - can you check out that question that Morons linked please. It's highly dodgy

user20683

@GlenH7 already looking at it

user41796

@WorldEngineer - thanks, just caught up with the chat thread. sorry.

psr

@WorldEngineer - What IQ is literal genius?

user20683

9:43 PM

@psr 130, it's the bar for Mensa

Jimmy Hoffa

I don't think IQ relates to being a genius, I do think truly groking category theory relates to being a genius however

user20683

@psr like I said, I don't really give it much weight. I'm not as good mathematically as I am linguistically for instance

psr

@WorldEngineer, hmm , that's less than 2 standard deviations - about 5% of population

user20683

@psr sounds about right

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer henceforth I'm going to tease you about being a mensa member though

user20683

9:45 PM

@JimmyHoffa except I'm not

user41796

@JimmyHoffa - there's quite a few folk who qualify or could qualify for mensa but don't bother

user20683

I've no desire to join it

user20683

I'm long past the age where I care about being the smartest guy in the room

user41796

I never really saw the benefit of it. Two friends of mine have been card-carrying members. But they only did so for the gag effect if / when people asked them if they thought they were geniuses or something

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer irrelevant, tell Gina Davis I said hi at your next smarty pants gathering

user41796

9:47 PM

ironically, one of those two friends did a stint as an apple genius at the apple store.

psr

@JimmyHoffa - Great, if I just start contributing to Galois's open source stuff, job for me! I just need to figure out how Haskel is implemented, what the heck a type constructor is, how to, you know, write or read any real code, all the stuff I don't know exists (such a transactional memory until a couple days ago), the stuff I forgot in this list, then, BAM!

@JimmyHoffa - Finished all the stuff prior to Yesod but it's just a tad shy of complete.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr is that what it says it takes to get into Galois? I didn't even bother looking at their recruiting techniques

psr

@JimmyHoffa - Oh, no, I made that up.

user20683

@JimmyHoffa corp.galois.com/software-engineer

Jimmy Hoffa

Perhaps it could work though.. Iduno, I did hear comonad questions are the least of your concerns in their interview though so I don't suspect just contributions without knowing the category theory will get you far

@psr cool, how did you feel about the Monad stuff you read? Does it make sense at all?

psr

9:52 PM

@JimmyHoffa - Actually, yes. But making some degree of sense vs. sitting down and pounding out code - orders of magnitude difference most likely.

Jimmy Hoffa

data SomeAlgebraicDataType a = Arrr a | Nahh
                                                                  ^-- type constructor
                                                     ^------------ type constructor
                                            ^------------------- type variable
                   ^--------------------------------------- type

That didn't work..

psr

@MichaelT Though Hanlon's razor is usually true, in this case it's not malice vs. stupidity, but greed vs. stupidity, which is a more even match.

Jimmy Hoffa

Nope, still didn't work. Screw it.

psr

@JimmyHoffa - Seeing it happen before my eyes - it's like a veil has been lifted.

Jimmy Hoffa

Huh?

Oh

user20683

9:54 PM

@JimmyHoffa incidentally Old Man's War was the main reason I was able to Grok Monads

user20683

FTL in that universe is basically Monadic

user20683

you select a location and the drive returns you to where you want to go in a universe that's technically different but so slightly that you don't notice.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr yeah, if you just work in do notation and take it all for granted that the monadic composition is occuring you can get pretty far without worrying about it at all. Biggest problem I had was trying to come up with a monad to implement myself that wasn't already implemented; there's an unbelievably robust set of libraries available on hackage

psr

So, what gives a pretty comprehensive treatment of Haskel, and is written primarily in English (math is fine, if it is accompanied by English).

?

user20683

@psr Learn You a Haskell, Real World Haskell and this: yannesposito.com/Scratch/en/blog/Haskell-the-Hard-Way

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