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6:03 PM
I found an audio guy that might be interested in helping me with my game. He's asking $500 per minute of music, does that sound unreasonable?
 
mmmm
Is he a really good established musician that already has work?
 
He has some work and I'm sure the quality would be good
 
Is he turning over all rights to the created work?
 
yes
 
it's a bit high, but it sounds reasonable for a well known music type or so
 
6:05 PM
If he is well known then sure
 
k. i know he's done a couple games before and some film stuff, so you could probably say he's well known
 
@stephelton my mate did music for Discovery channel. They paid him like 200 rand ($25) per minute. But from what @Noctrine said that might be normal as far as game music goes. Do you know how many minutes you need?
 
Otherwise I'd be reluctant. Music can get really high, I've heard quotes up to 1200 per minute.
 
i threw out about 5 minutes of music
 
This is madness - they must be ripping the games industry off: because TV shows are quite cheap.
 
6:06 PM
and i think i can negotiate lower -- now i have a better idea of how much lower :)
 
My idea of music production is taking it away from minutes and looking at it as tracks.
 
yeah, i wouldn't have thought of it in terms of music until he mentioned his rates
er, minutes, not music
 
2500 is pretty reasonable for all rights to a flexible enough track.
 
@stephelton You can edit your previous posts here in chat
 
Studio sessions are immensely expensive at professional places.
@JonathanDickinson At those rates the music is usually more than one live musician, and thinking of it in terms of the finished project it really takes into account paying multiple people for all the re-recordings and what not to get the final product.
Then mastering and all that.
 
6:09 PM
@Noctrine if he is using real instruments, yes.
 
hmmm I've never thought about what I'd do for music or sfx
 
For what I'm doing SFX is me with some cheap audio equipment going around :p
 
are there sfx bundles you can buy or do people create their own with a microphone and a bunch of props?
 
I dunno, at $500 a minute that music had better summon forth unicorns and rainbows from my headphones.
 
There are, but it's pretty easy to make the basics.
 
6:10 PM
the big cost of independent music production is renting studio time
 
I've always wanted to do the "rip apart a watermelon" sound
 
@JonathanDickinson I make 500 a week if I'm lucky. Whats a poor college student to do about music?
 
The Coconut Effect makes sound effects pretty fun :p.
2
 
@ClassicThunder Use free/open source/public domain music
 
How do situations like Terraria who sell the soundtrack along with the game?
 
6:12 PM
@ClassicThunder Go to some even poorer music students and get them to join your project.
 
Every so often on reddit.com/r/gamedev, there are posts from musicians wanted to expand their portfolio--often for free
 
@ClassicThunder They acquire all the rights to their contracted work.
There is a lot of competition for the most basic jobs in music, so for the people who take it seriously they really need to make a good case for their future employment.
I meet a ton of really awesome musicians working at guitar center while trying to get their professional careers off the ground.
 
@Noctrine TvTropes? You should warn us before doing something like that.
 
@Noctrine are real instruments all that common (yeah, excluding Jeremy Soule)? I would expect it to be mostly sample packs.
 
@TreDubZedd @Noctrine yeah luckily I'd already seen that page, otherwise my day would have been shot
 
6:16 PM
@JonathanDickinson Most of the people I meet that want to get into game music are not really musicians. People grab DAW programs, play around a bit, label themselves a composer and try and get work.
 
I wonder if I could just do that for my game. DIY music.
 
@Noctrine no doubt - but I have seen some really convincing stuff pushed out with Reason (their sample packs are second-to-none).
 
Not to say that there aren't people who are really good with those programs, but they are usually actually musicians.
@JonathanDickinson Ah, you beat me to it. Yeah, it's not a sweeping generalization, just anecdotal based on the people that go "Oh your working on a game, I'm a producer"
 
I wish I knew sound people.
That'll be the hardest part of our game...
 
Personally, my solution was to get my uncle to do composition for me then just hire people to actually perform the music.
 
6:19 PM
Mostly because capital = $0
 
@Noctrine you get that in any gamedev discipline really. All I know is we are going to be having a fun weekend with some cabbages and other foley equipment :D. It's going to be messy: what fun!
 
I'll just release the game with SFXR sounds and tracks built from Musagi.
 
yeah, I have recently found a sound guy that is letting me use his music for free until I start charging for my game
 
That's nice of him.
 
Yeah, he's giving away his music for free, but if I'm making money, it's only fair that he does too
 
6:23 PM
@JohnMcDonald equity is the way to go when you are starting out. "If this makes money you can have some." That's what makes Unity so attractive.
 
yeah, he and I will re-negotiate our deal when I decide AO is worth money
That $200-500/min given above could prove useful
Has anyone done any deals like: I'll give you half of the profits up to $500/min for the music?
or any other art assets for that matter?
 
i'm going to just make all the sound effects with my mouth. spoken "DING" and "rain rain rain rain" and "verrrum" and "plonk"
 
yeah, I'm trying my hand with sfx, but it's hard
I did make 1 good sfx though: Hitting my hand against my leather sofa for a "Build" sound
 
oooh
i actually might drag my laptop and a microphone with me somewhere to record elevator noises
 
yeah... once you start, you just can't stop paying attention to all the noises around you
 
6:32 PM
One of the best foleys I have heard of the Star Wars laser sound: it was some random pipe in a desert that made an interesting noise when they hit it. They recorded it, added reverb and sped it up. The rest was foley history.
 
elevator noises aren't too hard to fake probably
it's basically whoosh ding rumble swish
 
yeah, i made a ok-ish one in sfxr
eventually i'll grab audacity and mess around with sound editing more
 
I've been thinking more and more about voice acting
I would like a radio-effect and wondering about using something like Mumble's record feature to add some low-fi distortion
turn the audio quality knob way down or something
"phhsshh Hey you there? Over phhssshh"
 
6:48 PM
you could probably do that better/easier/safer with audio editing tools
 
yeah... maybe, but I really can't tell my sawtooth wave from my sine wave
I'm gonna experiment. My parents also have some real radios that would be fun
 
that's why you load it up, do a cursory google search for "static audacity", then follow the instructions to get what you want
 
sounds like a lot of learning
 
my goal is to have pretty screenshots before I ever worry about sound
 
yeah
@Jimmy that's my goal! thief!
 
6:56 PM
@Jimmy heh, I can manage some passable screenshots, and now I'm on to videos and sound
 
see, this is why you should never put game ideas here
 
I still really need a nice looking space background
 
I'm just going to steal them
 
Didn't like World of WarMinePokeCraft?
 
he already finished that one
 
6:57 PM
:D
 
now he's on the lookout for the NEXT game to steal
 
hides AO
 
jimmy should found Satire Studios
 
oooh
if isotower DOESN'T make millions, i'm stealing that
 
luckily for you guys
I was never really into sims or tower defense
 
7:03 PM
good
 
strat/tower defence
:)
 
i was never into warminepokecraft
 
I wouldn't be Satire Studios, I'd be Dead Serious No Kidding Studios
 
Super Serious Studios?
 
I feel like that should be Croteam's name
 
7:05 PM
i'm Super Cereal Guys Sudios
 
Super Serious Studios Serious Sam Six
 
cereal. Another good source of studio names
Sugar Bombs Studios
Crunchy Crisps Studios
Honey and Almond Bites Studios
 
Magically Delicious Studios
 
7:24 PM
Hey guys, not sure if this falls in any of yalls areas of interest but I'm thinking about going ahead and buying a Window's Kinect. Anything I should be aware of?
 
you need a very large room
 
Haha, well yeah. Besides that. Though supposebly the window's one that just came out has more near depth precision
Designed for being in front of the computer
 
i don't think there's anything major to watch out for
 
Yeah, just wanted to check with yall real fast for some quick feedback if any
But
ORDERED!
Anywho, I'm out. Got a chapel to build! Yay for programmer doing construction work!
 
build a robot to do your work for you
problem, solved.
 
7:38 PM
real men build robots to build their robots
2
 
true
 
@ClassicThunder ad infinum
heh, reminded me of: xkcd.com/865
 
8:13 PM
@JohnMcDonald one thing I forgot a couple times is that users don't always have enough rep to chat! It's a catch 22 really.
0
Q: Question about Game Development Platforms: Cross platform vs. XNA

StupacSeems like there are lots of similar questions out there, but I still can't seem to find a reasonable answer. I'm a Computer Science major, but I'm afraid I haven't had much time for practical, real-world coding, but I'm reasonably skilled with Java, and have a little experience with C++. I woul...

Just be careful :)
 
@tylerrrr07 yeah... I know.
But what can you say?
It is off-topic
 
Is it off-topic when he's asking for comparison of features?
 
There's no right answer, it's just opinions and discussion
 
to be fair to us the front page of each technology answers most of his questions in this instance
 
comparison of technologies is off-topic
i feel bad sending them to chat when they're new and don't have rep, but..
 
8:23 PM
:/ yeah
What's the deal with casting close votes? I'm not able to cast them yet, but do you need 2 or more to agree or something?
 
Stupid network provisioning
Been trying to get back online for the past 2 hours now.
 
Close votes: You need five normal close votes, or one moderator close vote.
So if you see something closed by two or three people, it's because one or two normal folks cast close votes, and then a moderator did, so the voting process stopped.
 
You can technically invite a user into a room and give them explicit write access. Or atleast mods can, I don't know if normal users can.
 
8:44 PM
The reason things usually end so quickly is because people often flag along side their close votes.
 
as a mod, how does one go about inviting a user to chat and giving them write access?
 
Room > Control Access
There is an option to give people explicit read / write access to rooms. Very useful for when there is an important person who may give a talk of some sort that can not acquire the necessary 20 rep.
 
hmm
I'm guessing users won't have it unless they have the moderator tools privilege.
I'm going to start referring to chat as the "third place" since that's what we refer to it as around here... hehe
 
Theoretically, you only need to be a room owner to access it. That only requires 100 rep
Alternately possible at 1k, when you can create gallery chatrooms.
 
it's likely possible for room owners, but most of the main chat room owners are mods anyway
 
9:00 PM
I'd probably set some other's as owners here but things don't really get out of hand so I don't think it's really necessary.
 
9:41 PM
OT: we had a "Readme.txt" in our repo - so I obviously needed to indicate that I did Readme. imgur.com/DAGmZ
 
If I were on that project, I'd be tempted to check in a Deleteme.txt file to see if you would.
 
The nice thing about DVCS is that many years later, whoever is cloning your repo will have these revisions saved and wonder what was going on
 
@Jimmy no cloning - only some of our component will go OSS
 
Has anyone used Baazar in Game Development?
Considering adding a bounty to the Version Control question to get input on Baazar and Dropbox
44
Q: Version control for game development - issues and solutions?

CyclopsThere are a lot of Version Control systems available, including open-source ones such as Subversion, Git, and Mercurial, plus commercial ones such as Perforce. How well do they support the process of game-development? What are the issues using VCS, with regard to non-text files (binary files), la...

 
9:54 PM
@Noctrine no, but it should do nicely as it is "large binary aware" (like HG is with some extensions). I briefly tried Bazaar on DropBox and quickly gave up.
 
Dropbox has a problem with concurrent edits /merges
I wouldn't use it for source, but I guess it's okay for assets with clear ownership
 
agreed
 
like, if each artist on your team has his own directory in the arts folder and your build process collects it all automatically
 
are you guys implying using DropBox for something like largefiles and a stock-standard bazaar server for code? I thought @Noctrine was talking about storing the central bazaar repo on dropbox (which works nicely for a single dev apparantly)
 
DropBox isn't a VCS so it seems off topic for the question. But I've seen people use it for managing resources or content projects.
 
10:05 PM
My interest is making that particular question more useful for people. Dropbox does technically have version support though.
 
@JonathanDickinson why would you store the repo on dropbox?
 
That and getting more users to that 3k mark :p
 
@Noctrine Well... what DropBox does is creates a copy of the conflicting file: dropbox.com/help/36
ohh, sorry, mis-read. You're talking about looking at older versions of the file
 
Dropbox is useful for binary assets, but I wouldn't think of using it for source control.
 
oh wait, I'm seeing where the "repo on Dropbox" idea is coming from
the "I have no hosting and github doesn't support Bazaar" problem
 
10:10 PM
Ehhhh, I wouldn't use DropBox to store a repo that is intended to be used by more than 1 person
Even with 1 person, I have somehow made conflicted copies of files
 
I saw a few other people mention it before also. There was something on the unity forums about it being a method of getting around metafiles only being accessible on pro versions.
 
What would you do with a conflicted source code repo?
 
yeah it sounds terrible
 
No idea, for me dropbox is just a nifty way of sharing files between my machines without needing a flash drive.
 
the only reason it's popular with Unity is because of Unity imo
 
10:11 PM
 
oh ffs.
 
hah, that's crazy
 
well, at least it's better than appstore only
I think this is going to be adopted by other parties in the future too
 
You talking about Metro?
 
a "programmer license"
 
10:14 PM
How does it differentiate a general application from a game?
 
yeah, the windows store
 
Or would you need the programmer license to develop anything native for OSX?
 
@Noctrine oh, I thought it was for all apps
 
Yeah, it is for all apps.
At least the certification is free. I thought it would be tied to the 99 dollar mac app store license.
 
I'd like to see more third-party application whitelist type stuff.
 
$99/year!
 
1. Get developer ID.
2. Write malware.
Ezpz.
 
Bye Bye Open Source/Freeware!
 
that's not true
Open Source stuff is often signed too
 
reasons to get a mac--
 
10:21 PM
to prove that your ISP / the NSA didn't man-in the-middle somehting on you
 
I'm not paying $99/year to allow my stuff on apples, you're saying there's an other way?
 
Open Stuff would likely be signed, and in the event it isn't, users can still run anything.
 
open source won't be signed by a $99/year developer ID
 
This will be free
 
@JohnMcDonald that's for app store the 99
developer IDs and keys are free
 
10:21 PM
(though you can run anything by changing a setting)
 
And getting an Apple Developer ID is still cheaper than buying a code-signing certificate from e.g. Verisign
 
It basically just gives them a kill switch that lets them maintain that as long as you use the default settings there are no viruses on OSX.
 
"The Mac Developer Program annual fee is $99"
 
That's for putting an application on the mac app store.
An apple developer ID is free. Mac App Developer License costs 99.
 
hmmm, then their website sucks, because i can't figure out how to get a developer ID without paying them money
 
10:24 PM
It's all a load. Apple just likes control. At any level of competency of systems security you should know that the ONLY way to gain true security is through CAS or Trusted Platform. It's just marketting hogwash from the marketting king. Free or not free it's a 20 ton safe in the middle of a desert: pointless.
 
You will be able to sign your applications with just your developer ID. The Developer ID is pretty much necessary for anyone doing any OSX work that touches platform specific libraries.
 
I think it's going to end up like UAC, with many people turning it off and the others complaining to developers that their application doesn't work.
 
@Jimmy That's good
 
FWIW: $300+/yr for Verisign certificate
 
10:26 PM
well, now that i know it's possible to create a developer ID without paying money, i'm kind of ok with it
 
@Noctrine if you can turn it off.
 
@JonathanDickinson You can turn it off
it has a screenshot of the settings
 
According to the site, it's an option in system preferences.
 
one of them is "turn this off"
 
If only iOS did that :(
 
10:27 PM
Oh so it's a bit like Vericode (which Microsoft never landed up doing anything with - apart from a "you might be able to trust this" popup on downloads)
 
these are apparently your options when running an "unsigned" app: cargo.dcurt.is.s3.amazonaws.com/unsigned.jpg
 
I guess it helps people who get all their apps off pirate torrents
if your copy of LegitSoft 2000 has been tampered with it would break the signing
 
@Jimmy and the website would tell you to ignore the message: and you would (as aunt tillie)
 
well, apps from pirate torrents are tampered with anyway
 
@thedaian they can't be, if they are signed
or if they are, they would no longer be signed.
 
10:31 PM
they won't be signed is my point
and breaking the typical DRM requires tampering
 
well, if Apple or Microsoft sets the precedent of requiring all apps to be signed
@thedaian I'm not talking about breaking DRM
 
which any app from a pirate torrent would have to have to be from pirate torrent
 
i'm talking about protecting the consumer from malware
 
exactly: it helps with experienced users (the type, like me, who keep UAC turned ON) - but aunt tillie is doing to do whatever it takes to see dancing hamsters.
 
@JonathanDickinson well hopefully you would set up your aunt tillie's machine to reject unsigned apps completely
and she would be sad her dancing hamsters are gone
 
10:33 PM
actually it just trains everyone to press the "ok, run the program anyway" button
 
but she really only needs gmail and solitaire and Hearts anyways
 
@thedaian hit the nail on the head.
 
well, if the default is "reject without offering a run-anyways button", you can start breaking habits
 
you need something as annoying as the Linux UAC prompt - "why am I typing in my password for this program". to be honest the Linux culture is years ahead of Windows: they nearly never ask for admin (su) access. You try pull a "password on UAC" in Windows and you will get all the Linux fanboys pointing out how Linux doesn't do that - it's bad Windows developers that make UAC a problem/failed feature.
 
and everyone calls tech support to ask why their hamsters don't work
tech support gets tired of those calls and just tells them to turn UAC off
 
10:35 PM
well, the real answer is "the hamsters are EVIL"
 
UAC ends up off, everyone loses!
(except for people who write virii, they win because UAC is off)
 
"the hamsters are trying to steal your credit card info"
 
what if hamsters is a legit program, though? :P
 
then the answer is "well, Hamstersoft Inc should have signed their program"
 
@Jimmy that actually might work. Have a set of canned messages that scare the living daylights out of the user - "this program may be trying to upload your photos to a malicious website, you should investigate if it's trustworthy." Aunt tillie won't like the idea of her grandkids landing up on a website. Hamsters lose!
@Jimmy nothing is stopping someone malicious from signing their application - and certificate revocation lists are usually only updated monthly (if ever).
 
10:39 PM
@JonathanDickinson it doesn't help your Aunt Tillie, but it helps the million other aunts out there who were going to download it next month
 
@JonathanDickinson I wouldn't be surprised if Apple doesn't add something of the sort in a prompt when you attempt to turn the feature off. I'd load up the developer preview but my mac is already showing its age and the work machine will probably explode if I tried.
 
Exploding macs are nothing new.
 
Make a hacintosh to try it out.
 
and in the current App Store environment, the user has about 5 seconds of attention for HamsterVille 2.0 before they realize that the other program, Hamstermania HD, is signed and they can download and run it properly.
 
that would actually be a clever trick: provide alternates from the store when you get one of these prompts.
 
10:40 PM
well, in the current app store, both would be signed, but I mean, the user expectations
 
I wonder how long it would take before someone creates and signs an application that discretely disables the feature so that virii loaded programs will work regardless of what the settings say.
 
@Noctrine is "signed" good enough for "admin access"? In Win7 you need to traverse a UAC prompt to turn off UAC.
 
has anyone made an app that disables UAC and turns that windows shield icon to green and tells you that you have antivirus installed?
 
haha, that'd be cool
 
I guess the only way to tell is to download one from those "YOUR COMPUTER IS INFECTED QUICK LET ME SCAN IT" popups
 
10:43 PM
time for a VM
 
11:03 PM
Is there a way to hide the closed questions? There is an annoyingly large amount of them.
 
@ClassicThunder not directly, but "Unanswered" generally doesn't have closed questions.
 
I find a lot of the closed questions pretty useful
 
I wish Microsoft would throw up a compiler error if you called GC.Collect() that you had to explicitly disable. There are so few instances that you should ever call that method (the only two I know of in XNA is after massive content loads and unloads). Even then it's a 'maybe'.
 
lol
then they should have made it private
you could only call it via reflection
 
^ now that's a good idea. People tend to think that it magically clears up memory - but you will likely land up promoting a lot of objects to G3 very quickly.
 
11:11 PM
well, that's a problem with education
people also set locals to null so that "they will be collected faster"
people also run loops on the UI Thread with Application.DoEvents() or Thread.Sleep(0) peppered throughout to mask problems.
 
well, setting to "null" helps with generational promotions in deep object structures (not a concern on XBox because it doesn't have generations) - beyond that it's pointless.
 
that's why I said locals :P
 
oh, right. my bad :). These things are like regex: you should have to acquire some sort of certification before you are allowed to use them. "C:\foo.cs: error CS101 (1,1): No! Idiot!"
 
I think it can be solved by process. Required code reviews and a competent lead developer or architect. Use stylecop or resharper rules
 
alright, here's a decent blog post on the whole "app store only" security thing: panic.com/blog/2012/02/about-gatekeeper
 
11:33 PM
What sort of update rate would you recommend for the physics engine server-side? I've been looking at this thing about source, which apparently only does 33.3 ticks per second.
Which seems a bit low to me, but considering that the client can run at higher ticks, simply by extrapolating, the server only really needs to do a bit of simulation to manage where the entities are.
 
depends on the needed resolution doesn't it?
I know Forza runs at 100hz
but for a Terraria like game I think as long at its below the frame rate it should be fine
 
Well, it seems stupid to run updates more often than I'd broadcast state data.
I was thinking of going with 20ms ticks perhaps. That's 50 updates per second.
 
a 33.3 hz physics time would give you a maximum delay of 1 tick assuming 60 fps which shouldn't be noticeable
 
Well, this is purely server-side, so nothing visual, this is just simulation.
The clients will run at higher rates depending on hardware.
 
That would give you around a max of 2 clicks of delay which again between lag and what not should be barely noticeable
@WilliamMindWorXMariager So only dedicated servers?
 
11:40 PM
@ClassicThunder One centralized server. This is a DMO like setup.
 
Whats DMO?
 
Diminutive Multiplayer Online game
Like an MMO but smaller.
And it's going to be purely instanced, except for towns/cities/special places.
 
I see. In that case because of PvP you probably want a pretty high resolution for your physics code
 
True, but I need to balance it with server load. I think 50 ticks per second would work very well.
There wont be player owned collisions, ie, two players wont collide, but a bullet once created on the server will collide with players.
If you've played Soldat, it'll be something like that.
Not visually, but network approach.
Reading up on a guide about keeping several timestamped ticks around.
 
My current theory as to why I can't concentrate as well on coding at home is that I need a better chair.
hmm.
 
11:48 PM
:( I was trying to find a youtube of the tv show Better Off Ted where they invented a really uncomfortable office chair, and since it was so uncomfortable, people worked harder. They called it the "Taskmaster"
 
I remember that one. :P
 
That worked, right up until the employees went mental
 
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