The Heap™ – Consultancy ©® - 2014-08-05 (page 1 of 2)

7:26 AM

@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells Up to 15th of August or beginning of September. I'll probably be away from 16th Aug for 1-2 weeks.

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

8:44 AM

@ypercube, @jackdouglas, @markstorey-smith, @phil, @MartinSmith, @jameslupolt, @martinc - how about the following week, fri 5 september?

Master Database

9:02 AM

0

Q: Remove tag [tag:access] and blacklist it

The tag access has no description and I've seen it used in at least three different contexts: Microsoft Access, but there's already a tag ms-access for this. privileges a user has on an object index access paths If it was up to me, I would remove this tag and blacklist it.

JNK

12:06 PM

morning all

ypercube

12:23 PM

I want to improve my stored procedure that returns huge amount of data - but - I don't want to add any indexes ...

0

Q: how to improve my stored procedure using query optimization but without indexing

how can i improve my stored procedure for faster retrieval of data. it takes long time to load the huge amount of data. can anyone help me to Re-write the same stored procedure to load the data quickly. I dont want to create any index because my project have a huge amount of usp so just i want t...

sql sql-server stored-procedures query-optimization

JNK

yeah that's silly

It really just shows a lack of understanding in how the engine works

ypercube

No to mention the numerous silly things on the code.

JNK

also that query is a nightmare of antipatterns

yep

Andriy M

They do use SET NOCOUNT ON, though, to their credit.

But "dont want to create any index because my project have a huge amount of usp"? No, how the engine works is definitely not the only thing they've got lack of understanding in.

Zane

12:47 PM

@billinkc Ours is in the Mall so you can go at any time.

"USP" Top google results. 1:U.S. Pharmacopeial Convention 2:Unique Selling Proposition 3: United States Pharmacopeial Obviously none of these are stopping you from properly indexing your table so what is USP? What are you talking about sir. — Zane 17 secs ago

ypercube

1:07 PM

Passenger flight escorted by RAF jet: bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-28662867

@AndriyM But they have the awful single-quoted aliases (I'm sure Aaron would enjoy those ;)

Not to mention the double grouping, group by calculated values and all the other inefficient stuff in there.

bluefeet

1:39 PM

@billinkc ping me when you have a moment please, I've got a question for you.

billinkc

pong

JNK

CRAZY IVAN

bluefeet

we are in the process of replacing the use of xp_cmdshell inside stored procs to execute an SSIS package. Since we are using xp_cmdshell we get our error messages, that are generated by the packages returned to us.

We've implemented some weird process that now submits the package to the SSISDB to then execute the package. But I'm not seeing how we can easily get details (immediately) on issues with the SSIS package.

billinkc

Running them synchronously or asynchronously? ssistalk.com/2012/07/24/…

bluefeet

Do you have any links, etc on how best to utilize the catalog? Maybe its the way it was implemented that is the problem but we have a lag in the execution that is going to kill us

@billinkc well of course I don't know that :/

billinkc

1:46 PM

Yes you do, look at your steps. If you don't explicitly pass synchronized in your calls, then you're running async

bluefeet

@billinkc it's async

billinkc

k, so you won't know when that package, or any package, finishes.

The challenge then, is that you want to know as soon as it fails so you can get some remediation in place, yes?

Are these being run via sql agent or a similar scheduling tool?

bluefeet

@billinkc yes. Our process is we have a GUI that we use to load data - this is a button click that executes a proc to then execute the SSIS package. If the SSIS package fails, we need to know immediately

I think the way it was set up was backwards. let me explain

billinkc

Is it an option to to make the calls synchronous?

Go on

ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells

Could your SSIS package update an execution record on failure?
Perhaps your GUI app could poll that table.

bluefeet

1:50 PM

Basically, they created a table to store the name of the package and parameter values. Then a SQL Agent job that runs every 10 secs to return the top 1 from this table - this job executes another stored procedure to then execute the SSIS package via the catalog. So we have this weird lag

Shawn Melton

someone is tag happy this morning...

billinkc

So, the button click in the gui results in values being popped into the ToBeProcessed table. 0 to 10 seconds later, agent picks up on this and starts up SSIS?

bluefeet

@billinkc you got it

billinkc

Excellent. Can we modify the processed table to add another column, execution_id bigint

bluefeet

@billinkc yes, I'm sure there is

billinkc

1:57 PM

So Gui button adds record to the table, agent finds the newest (hoping that two people didn't add an entry within the 10 second window) record and makes all the SSISDB proc calls. As part of that, you are assigned an execution_id from the very first step in starting an SSIS package. Backfill that to the table

Then it's a matter of how you want to handle the error detection and reporting but the crux of the matter will be

    SELECT
        OM.operation_message_id
    ,   OM.operation_id
    ,   OM.message_time
    ,   OM.message_type
    ,   OM.message_source_type
    ,   OM.message
    FROM
        catalog.operation_messages AS OM
    WHERE
        OM.message_type = 120
        AND OM.operation_id = @MyExecutionID

120 is an error message type. Whether you have your app poll for the package name that corresponds to the execution id or not.

If you want real-time, then you'd need to move away from the intermediary table and just have the app call the SSIS procs directly

An alternative would be to have another SQL Agent job running that looks for anything that's failed in the past N timeunits and reports that to someone who cares

I'd probably need to know more about how alerts need to happen and such but that'd be my first thoughts. Any of those sound like they'd work with what you have or do we need to go an alternate route?

bluefeet

ok, I'll bring this up today with everyone to see what they want to do

Zane

Doesn't the agent job return failure upon package failure?

JNK

You could also use service broker!

It's an option for anything async

billinkc

I was actually thinking SB sounded like a use case here.

bluefeet

just to confuse me more? :)

billinkc

2:02 PM

@Zane It does not. It's asynch so as long as it was able to start the SSIS package, that's all it knows

JNK

Well I use it now for long-running xpcmdshell jobs

We have a web call that fires a stored proc that enters a message into a broker queue

Zane

@billinkc I didn't catch that portion.

JNK

that queue will transfer to a processing queue where it will eventually invoke xpcmdshell to call a powershell script that calls a web service that sends emails and text messages

billinkc

It's like the Irish say of the Titanic: she was fine when she left here

JNK

but the WS call takes a while

billinkc

2:04 PM

@Zane I can't remember, have you mucked about with 2012's SSIS yet?

Zane

@billinkc Nope.

Still need Data Tools at work or a functional computer at home.

Them debt collectors keep on calling.

billinkc

One of the dumb things they did was remove the actual error message from the agent jobs. Instead if your SSIS execution goes belly up, it just says "look in the ssis catalog for what failed"

Zane

Oh... Joy...

bluefeet

I'm pulling a @Kermit

boom

Gonsalu

hmmm when I have SSIS 2012 packages failing, the agent job fails as well

bluefeet

2:08 PM

0

A: SQL - Convert columns to rows (use a pivot or other means)?

While the other two answers will get you the result that you want, I should do this slightly different. You can unpivot the data in your Actual and Forecast columns first, then pivot the months. You didn't specify what version of SQL Server you are using but starting in SQL Server 2005+ you can ...

Zane

@Gonsalu You're probably not running async packages from the same job.

Gonsalu

@Zane yes, that's true

Zane

Or if you are you're probably using a Master package to control the flow of things.

Gonsalu

so that means if you use xp_cmdshell, they get run asynch, but if you use SSIS package execution, they get run synchronously? interesting

Zane

Ugh! You can't talk to me during the end of Abbey Road go away Coworkers!

swasheck

2:20 PM

190

Q: Why does Windows think that my wireless keyboard is a toaster?

I've inherited an old PC from my girlfriend's dad and when setting up the printer I got a bit of a surprise: Two questions spring to mind here: Why does Windows think my wireless keyboard is a toaster? Why does Windows even have an icon for a toaster in the devices menu?

windows-7 device-manager

Zane

Ha ha ha!

billinkc

@Gonsalu The default construct of using stored procs to launch an SSIS package will be for it to run in async mode. If you run it from the command line or from a SQL Agent job using a job step type of SSIS, then it runs synchronously by default

default, because why use a word two times when I can use it three times

Can I go back to bed?

Zane

@billinkc I'm cool with it.

Kermit

@bluefeet +1

not sure how i feel about this answer... the question is 5 years old

-1

A: how to hide the content of the div in css

#mybox:hover{ font-size: 0 ; }

bluefeet

anyone want some easy rep by answering this question correctly?

0

Q: SQL combine count results

I have two large tables called REQUESTS and OPENISSUES. One holds request information and the other holds the number of issues per request. In the REQUESTS table there is a status column that keeps track of the request status. I'm looking for a Query that counts all records in the OPENISSUES ta...

sql count inner-join multiple-results

swasheck

2:30 PM

> Did you try adding another COUNT?

NEED MOAR COUNT!!!!

Gonsalu

@billinkc I learn something everyday :-) thanks.

Zane

@Kermit I hate his comment.

bluefeet

must refrain from DVing because of the join syntax used here

0

A: SQL combine count results

This is certainly what it sounds like you want. SELECT count(*) FROM openissues op, requests rq WHERE op.requestID = rq.ID and rq.status <> 'Closed'

ypercube

2:51 PM

@swasheck they did add the query with the JOIN syntax as well.

swasheck

@ypercube fabulous

@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells ... someone in the office just referenced "System W" ... do you know anything about that?

Kermit

@ypercube you're so civilized

@James what you wrote in comments, should be added in the answer, with even more detailed explanation if possible. The more explanation and the better explanation why an answer works, the more it makes it upvotable. As it is, it's more of a comment than an answer. — ypercube 8 mins ago

ypercube

3:09 PM

@Kermit You make it sound like a bad thing ;)

Kermit

no it's good cause i'm definitely not the civilized one

Lamak

@Kermit you mean you weren't

I think that you are domesticated now

Kermit

quite possible

ypercube

Do we need this kind of question at DBA.SE?

0

Q: MYSQL Query - Unexpected result in text messaging database

On a text messaging database I have built, I am trying to return the total amount of messages a user has sent and the total number of messages a user has received. I have the following code: SELECT People.Name, SUM(Case When Recipients.RecipientID = People.ID THEN 1 ELSE NULL END) AS 'Messages R...

mysql sql

Shows less than adequate knowledge of SQL.

Kermit

@ypercube we don't need no shitty SQL

leave us DBA's alone

Mike Fal

3:21 PM

IT's true, we don't need shitty SQL. Only high quality, properly written SQL in this joint.

Kermit

@MikeFal *properly written SQL with JOINs

JNK

@Kermit JOINS are slow

Mark Storey-Smith

@ConcernedOfTunbridgeWells Away 29/8 but yes can possibly do 5/9

swasheck

@JNK NOSQL to the rescue

Kermit

@JNK functions on predicates are slow

swasheck

3:38 PM

@mmarie @billinkc ... Joy Mundy is rockin' this engagement

billinkc

She brings Joy to the world. All the boys and girls. Joy to the fishes in the deep blue sea. Joy to you and me

Zane

284

Q: Why does Windows think that my wireless keyboard is a toaster?

I've inherited an old PC from my girlfriend's dad and when setting up the printer I got a bit of a surprise: Two questions spring to mind here: Why does Windows think my wireless keyboard is a toaster? Why does Windows even have an icon for a toaster in the devices menu?

windows-7 device-manager

Do you see the number constantly going up and down on the +- on this thing.

Like ever second.

Lamak

@Zane yeah, weird

swasheck

@Zane inb4

1 hour ago, by swasheck

190

Q: Why does Windows think that my wireless keyboard is a toaster?

I've inherited an old PC from my girlfriend's dad and when setting up the printer I got a bit of a surprise: Two questions spring to mind here: Why does Windows think my wireless keyboard is a toaster? Why does Windows even have an icon for a toaster in the devices menu?

windows-7 device-manager

Lamak

the answer too

swasheck

3:43 PM

@Zane take it to meta

jcolebrand

this vote counter ... superuser.com/questions/792607/…

Lamak

it stopped now

swasheck

F5 has given me 3 different numbers. 288->290->289

ypercube

I only see 289.

Someone was clicking up and down?

billinkc

Probably the signal the toast is done

Aaron Bertrand

3:47 PM

@swasheck did that get reddited? How 289 up-votes in 6 hours for a silly question?

swasheck

@AaronBertrand hackernews

Aaron Bertrand

ah

swasheck

a more sophisticated reddit, i guess

Aaron Bertrand

how do we get useful shit posted there?

Zane

0

Q: Question Points bouncing around

So I was looking at this hilarious question on Super User when I noticed that the points were going up/down up/down constantly. I asked if anyone else was seeing this they did and thought it seemed weird so I thought I would bring it here. Any clue why this is happening? UPDATE:This behavior ...

bug

billinkc

3:48 PM

Your meta question is also suffering from the flickering

Lamak

now the score on your meta question is bouncing

billinkc

How did you capture the bouncing for your image?

Lamak

@jcolebrand it doesn't seem to be hackernews unless they got to @Zane's question too

jcolebrand

right, we just saw that

ypercube

We should ask a question about the flickering in Zane's question.

jcolebrand

3:50 PM

@AaronBertrand create your own bots

Zane

@ypercube Just stopped.

jcolebrand

@ypercube that would be a little ... meta

swasheck

@ypercube so that bart can downvote that too

Zane

woah there it goes.

bluefeet

@jcolebrand did you see your answer points bouncing? my mouse had a mind of its own

Kermit

3:51 PM

@Zane was this you?

Zane

@AaronBertrand what's my actual vote count.

Aaron Bertrand

2

Gonsalu

It was in reddit was well in /r/sysadmin

Zane

@AaronBertrand well that rules out tons of back and forth votes.

@Kermit never Reviewed a product in my life.

Kermit

@Zane this is a hotel, sir

swasheck

3:53 PM

> I got married here in 2013 but I didn't read the fine print carefully. Apparently the Hotel Manager had the right of "Prima Nocta" and was legally allowed to sleep with the bride on the first night. Needless to say this lead to serious issues with the marriage. I'm fairly sure he impregnated my wife- the DNA test says the baby isn't mine.

jcolebrand

@bluefeet yes

@Gonsalu usually these things hit all the networks within a few minutes of each other due to cross-readership

it was also assuredly on twitter and is now filtering through facebook

Zane

@Kermit Haven't done that either.

Aaron Bertrand

@jcolebrand I read cross-dressing. More coffee please

Gonsalu

@jcolebrand yeah, that sweet karma must be harvested

jcolebrand

@AaronBertrand someone get this man some COFFEE, STAT!!

(either that or Eddie Izzard marathons...)

Kermit

3:55 PM

2 questions, and monster rep from one of them

ydaetskcoR, Northampton, United Kingdom

308 2 3 9

device-manager mysql services windows windows-7

jcolebrand

@Zane I want to stay in this hotel ...

swasheck

@jcolebrand both?

Kermit

@jcolebrand they may charge you $500 for cross-dressing

ypercube

Can I answer "Fuck you" to this?

The meta crowd tends to be knowledgeable @ypercube. And there are some in The Tavern that were alerted as well. There's really nothing mysterious going on here. :) — Bart 58 secs ago

Zane

That seems a bit condescending.

ypercube

4:00 PM

It's the first thing that comes to mind.

Kermit

lol

It is also happening right here on your question. — Aaron Bertrand 12 mins ago

Aaron Bertrand

@Kermit well, only 200 rep. The rest of those up-votes for the next half-day+ are wasted.

Kermit

@AaronBertrand oh yeah, i forgot about that

ypercube

@Zane I haven't settled on upvoting your question yet, only because I want to play some more :)

jcolebrand

@Zane he may seem to be condescending but he was just trying to suggest that there's a bit of an in-crowd on the network so when he suggests that the meta crowd is knowledgeable it's a bit like saying "we're incestuous" ;-)

Andriy M

4:07 PM

@Kermit At first I thought it was a reference to the picture, but later noticed the actual phenomenon (also amused myself by contributing to it for five seconds).

Kermit

@AndriyM those internet people

bluefeet

I think I'm going to delete my answer now

hi..no I don't...the increment is based on the "Month Value" column which keeps the correct order. Part of the output of the procedure calculates if the month increment is over 12 it then subtracts 12...so "month value" of 13 actually represents month 1 or January. — Buckwheattb 1 min ago

worst way ever to try and figure out dates

Kermit

@bluefeet that was a rough question

bluefeet

wow

so to add to that, if the query is run in September (month 9), the "month value" column would start at March (month value 3) which is 6 months prior and continue to 14 (14-12 = 2) or February. It uses a datename() to convert the integer "month value" to the month name from there. — Buckwheattb 2 mins ago

swasheck

yelp.com/biz/union-street-guest-house-hudson

ctrl + f

Rob M.

enter

billinkc

4:17 PM

It's a good thing my client didn't get acquired by an international group based in France. With these datetimes as strings, I'm sure there won't be any opportunity for locale errors

    SELECT
        CONVERT (VARCHAR(10), GETDATE(), 101) as CurrentDate
    ,   CONVERT (VARCHAR(10),
        CASE
            WHEN DATEPART(Month,GETDATE()) IN (1,3,5,7,8,10,12) THEN DATEADD(DAY,31 - DATEPART(DAY, GETDATE()),GETDATE())
            WHEN DATEPART(Month,GETDATE()) IN (4,6,9,11) THEN DATEADD(DAY,30 - DATEPART(DAY, GETDATE()),GETDATE())
            WHEN DATEPART(Month,GETDATE()) = 2 AND DATEPART(YEAR,GETDATE()) IN (2012, 2016, 2020, 2024, 2028, 2032, 2036) THEN DATEADD(DAY,29 - DATEPART(DAY, GETDATE()),GETDATE())

Andriy M

@bluefeet I think that's just another kind of a dynamic pivot question. The problem here is not the number of columns but their order.

bluefeet

@AndriyM I know it's a dynamic pivot but the problem comes into play with ordering those columns.

they want a range of values that goes into multiple years but they don't have a date

Andriy M

Hmm, I thought it was always 12 months, so either one year or (more often) two years.

bluefeet

@AndriyM correct, but if they want to start with Aug (month value = 8) - so they want Feb through Feb - want happens when they have multiple years - how do you know which Feb through Feb?

You can't use Month Value 2 through 2 without something else to distinguish which year, etc

Andriy M

@bluefeet No, it would be Feb through Jan, they say that explicitly (

Running the report today (in August) will need to have the first month of the result set being February and ending in January of 2015

)

bluefeet

4:24 PM

@AndriyM but how do you know it is 2015? They only have month

that's what I'm saying

You could say the first January would be 2014 and the second would be 2015 but that's not a workable solution

Andriy M

@bluefeet This may be too much of an assumption but it seems to me you don't need to determine that. They may be selecting from a prepared table that only has the relevant range.

Their query example doesn't have a WHERE

Do the tables always contain 12 months' worth of data (6 past months + 6 months starting from the current one)? If not, I think the issue @bluefeet keeps asking about is how you determine whether the current month is Month Value = 8 or Month Value = 20 or Month Value = 28 etc. — Andriy M 1 min ago

Aaron Bertrand

Maybe just starting out and they only have < 1 year of data, and don't grasp what the problem will be this time next year

Mark Storey-Smith

4:45 PM

@AaronBertrand How was the bits trip? In/out or did you do a spot of touring while here?

Aaron Bertrand

in/out. Arrived thursday am and left Sunday am. Actually left Telford at 17:01 Saturday.

Andriy M

It will always be 12 months. Maybe we can simplify this by forgetting the actual months, and pivot off of the "month value" column...wherever that column starts (1, 2, 3 or 22)...doesn't matter...it will always increase by 12 from there...does that simplify it more? — Buckwheattb 7 mins ago

ypercube

So they can (and should) always add a condition like (MonthInt >= X-6 AND MonthInt < X+6) before doing the pivot and problem solved. Right?

swasheck

apple's app store just suggested this app: Hungry Shark Evolution

where you apparently eat people as a shark

JNK

i played the other version of that

fun for about 15 minutes

swasheck

5:01 PM

i can see how it'd be cathartic if i could put pictures of my devs' faces on the people

Andriy M

@ypercube I understand it that finalprojection always has that range, you don't need a filter. The problem is returning the month columns in the correct order.

something like this: sqlfiddle.com/#!3/901c4/14

Zane

@jcolebrand That's why I added the "I don't know if" portion.

billinkc

VtC: Too broad, shopping, something else?

0

Q: How To Pull Data from one Desktop Application and Push to Another Desktop Application?

I'm VERY new to this process, but need both an overview understanding and directions pointing to where/what I need to learn. Our company uses an application (located on our local server) to schedule employees AND process records for payroll. We recently purchased the use of a different schedu...

vb.net excel-vba import ssis export

bluefeet

5:17 PM

@billinkc too broad and it's already closed

billinkc

Way to take the decision out of my hand

Now I'll never make moderator

Zane

You must be heartbroken.

Aaron Bertrand

> i am stucked very badly here.

0

Q: How to run mssql server dependent application to mysql workbench

I am very new in mysql workbench. I have created an application in c# which uses sql server 2008 r2 database. Now i have migrated my database on mysql workbench. i want to run my application now. My Question is is this the correct way of doing it or i have to redesign my app from starting just be...

mysql sql-server-2008 sql-server-2008-r2 mysql-workbench c#

bluefeet

@AndriyM I gave them a dynamic version

Zane

Just in case he want's other useless tools.

You may also find Oracle's SQL Developer to be an equally ineffective tool for managing Sql Server 2008R2. — Zane 18 secs ago

Scratch useless and replace with incorrect.

Clueless.

But Database migration is possible in Mysql WorkBench and i have migrated it. — user3346501 2 mins ago

ypercube

5:34 PM

But ... but ... but

But Database migration is possible in Mysql WorkBench and i have migrated it. — user3346501 2 mins ago

Aaron Bertrand

Good gravy

ypercube

Lets hope that he doesn't add that it's a Linux machine ;)

Zane

This guy is taking a run at the title for clueless questions.

Aaron Bertrand

@user3346501 So MySQL Workbench allowed you to migrate your database to SQL Server? Great. Now you expect it to manage SQL Server, and your C# app too? I don't think those were on their feature list. If US Airways overbooks and puts me on a Delta flight, I don't expect a US Airways flight attendant to serve me beverages. — Aaron Bertrand ♦ 25 secs ago

tbone

Guys, I have a question about a question I posted:

0

Q: Metadata database for Enterprise Data Inventory

Has anyone ever encountered either a tool or a fairly concrete implementation plan for recording a metadata inventory of all data within an enterprise. I'm envisioning a database that contains references & descriptions for not only all databases in the organization, but also spreadsheets, datase...

metadata

Zane

5:45 PM

mhmmm

tbone

On one hand, I can appreciate the imperfections involved in "Shopping List" questions.....but on the other hand, is imperfect value not better than no value? Especially considering to a degree, the stackexchange network has sucked the air out of the room for so many other places where you might formerly have asked such a question....where does a person go now?

Lamak

@tbone you have a question about your question?

Aaron Bertrand

@user3346501 You're going to migrate your data back to MySQL just because the only tool installed is MySQL Workbench? — Aaron Bertrand ♦ 11 secs ago

Lamak

@tbone the question might be valuable, but that doesn't means it's suitable for SE

bluefeet

@tbone my suggestion would be to look at the new Software Recs SE site to see if it would be on-topic there -- softwarerecs.stackexchange.com They are pretty strict because shopping questions are notorious for spam answers

tbone

5:48 PM

As well, I'd argue that the attributes noted for shopping list questions (quickly becoming obsolete, user perferences) are also attributes of "allowed" questions.

bluefeet

@tbone "allowed" questions don't typically get slammed with link-only spam answers which is the problem with shopping questions

jcolebrand

Sorry fellas, cleaning up comments is part of the game and something we're supposed to do ...

ypercube

@tbone As one of the five closing votes, is the question only about how such an application would be called or what are the available options/apps/tools out there?

tbone

Either! I'm looking for anywhere to start....either existing application names, or even a common term that might be used for this field

billinkc

You can also look at Database answers as they have many prebuilt, sane, database models — billinkc 4 mins ago

Aaron Bertrand

5:51 PM

@tbone I don't think I really agree with that, not even thinking about spam. If I ask a question about how to solve something in SQL Server 2000, that's software that still exists today, is still installed in a lot of shops, and could still help users tomorrow - even if they can't go get 2000 anywhere. If I ask what is the best code editor, the list of tools available for me to download last week may have changed by now, and the tools that don't exist anymore just don't exist.

2

ypercube

I have no idea but "Inventory" sounds plausible. And I think it's a good topic, for a chat room, like this one.

Lamak

@billinkc but who would want to listen to you

Aaron Bertrand

@tbone chat is a very good place for these kinds of "loose" questions that don't fit the SE model well.

billinkc

@Lamak This is why I need another babby in my life. Dog walks away when I start talking, kids just crank up the tunes but an infant, that sucker can't do anything except try and yell over me

tbone

True, but if I ask "how do I do <some programattic task>" - new technologies such as LINQ have made so much of those answers out of date

Zane

5:53 PM

@tbone wait wat?!

Lamak

@billinkc this might just be the best reason given for a new baby I've ever seen

Aaron Bertrand

@tbone that's a really bad example because LINQ makes things seem easier but makes them suck much harder. Generates a ton of questions like "how do I fix my crying server?"

billinkc

"How do I do <some programming task> and I only have access to the .NET 2.0 run time" invalidate LINQ answers

Aaron Bertrand

@tbone anyway those answers are only out of date for people who can and want to use LINQ. I'll give you a clue: those combined represent a large portion of the community.

tbone

Appropriate answers (at the time) for general "algorithm" questions are obsoleted once newer language features come out

Lamak

5:54 PM

@billinkc also, good thing that your dog doesn't need to listen to you, cruelty on animals and all that

billinkc

@Lamak He's a sprinter (which is why we call him 'bolt')

Aaron Bertrand

(And you can generalize that as well - as I said before, answers for SQL Server 2000 are still relevant and useful, because there are still shops that are stuck on that version with no budget or plans to upgrade - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.)

Zane

I get the distinct feeling that things are about to get stupid in here.

Aaron Bertrand

@tbone only for those that can move to the new version of the language.

tbone

Yet, shopping list questions are not allowed because they become obsolete (despite many people still using the "obsolete" products)

Aaron Bertrand

5:56 PM

Yes @tbone please take this to meta, you don't want to start a religious battle in here griping about your closed question. Those questions aren't allowed on this site. Period.

@tbone It is not JUST because they become obsolete. They also become spam farms.

Zane

Let's not forget largely opinionated.

Aaron Bertrand

@jcolebrand is a party pooper

@Zane I was getting to that too

"This is the tool you should use, because I like it"

tbone

Does there exist a meaty declaration I could read of the full reasoning behind "no shopping list" questions? It's kind of the principle of the rule that bothers me, I think this ul is not a net improvement for the world

Aaron Bertrand

"This is the tool you should use, because I work for them or get kickbacks"

Zane

They also tend to generate irrelevant arguments. Eerily similar to the one that's happening at this very moment between @tbone and the voice of reason.

Lamak

5:58 PM

@tbone then take it to meta

we are not SO employees

we don't have all the reasoning behind it

that doesn't mean that we don't agree that they don't make very good questions

tbone

@zane Ah yes, I'm unreasonable.

Aaron Bertrand

@tbone The wording on Stack Overflow is different

> Questions asking us to recommend or find a book, tool, software library, tutorial or other off-site resource are off-topic for Stack Overflow as they tend to attract opinionated answers and spam. Instead, describe the problem and what has been done so far to solve it.

We chose to emphasize the obsolete aspect but rest assured these are all good reasons that we believe in and your argument has thus far not convinced me that it needs revisiting.

Zane

@tbone a bit.

tbone

My argument is generally: while the relative value of these questions would be less than currently allowed questions (because of the spam and opinion aspects you correctly point out), the value would still be > 0. As it is, there is often no other standard place for people like me to go on the internet.

Aaron Bertrand

@tbone sure there is. experts-exchange, yahoo answers, MSDN forums - there are all kinds of places where quantity > quality.

tbone

6:03 PM

Those are esentially dead. As is usenet

Aaron Bertrand

And, like I said, right here. I would much rather discuss your actual question here than argue with you about whether we are making the right choice in not allowing the question on the site.

Lamak

@tbone but this place decided to not settle for just value>0

@tbone they are dead for a reason

and SE is not because they decided to filter some type of question

Aaron Bertrand

And what @Lamak said. "I'm getting 50 cents an hour for query tuning! That sure beats $0/hr!"

tbone

There is a class of questions that seem not to fit within the SE philosophy, but the gravity of SE has killed every other community.

Zane

As mentioned several times here. If you don't like it. Ask your question on Meta and bam maybe just maybe they will change the policy.

tbone

6:05 PM

ok, I may try that. Thanks for your help. :)

Lamak

@tbone that is a weird way to see things. SE came and decided to up the bar in the quality of question that it allows. As such, many professionals come here to look for questions and answers over the other sites. It's those sites policies that brought them to slowly lose the interest of people

Zane

Yay. Now we can all go back to ridiculing MySQL BenchGuy!

Aaron Bertrand

So, let's think about this. You are going to manually count 4.5 billion rows. It needs to be "exact" so you place a SELECT on the table under the default isolation level (or maybe you even escalate it). Meanwhile, surely, other users are trying to do things to this table - insert, delete, update, merge, etc. They are blocked by your select. So by the time your select finishes reading all 130GB of data to get a count, you have this queue of operations that are going to - surprise - change the count. How useful is that "accurate" count now? — Aaron Bertrand 27 secs ago

billinkc

And again, if you focus on the root of your problem, a starting place has been provided. databaseanswers.org/data_models/metadata_management/index.htm & databaseanswers.org/data_models/metadata_repositories/index.htm

tbone

I don't disagree....however, there is a level of question you must meet to be on SO, and some questions from those other communities don't make the cut. However, the other communities are now dead, so those questions have nowhere to live (and get answered) now.

I'm not saying that's not the best decision (all things considered), but saying it doesn't exist is not tru.e

billinkc

6:08 PM

And buggy whip manufacturers lament the automobile

tbone

Sigh.

Lamak

@tbone well, I won't keep repeating myself, but for the last time, it's really probable that because of the billion of those type of questions that those sites died. It's a good thing that they are not allowed here

Aaron Bertrand

So if exact, to-the-microsecond accuracy is not as important as you claim, use the metadata like sys.partitions - pretty accurate, non-blocking, and fast. And if concurrency isn't an issue (e.g. you don't have this class of users competing with your count to change the table), the metadata will be pretty darned accurate. — Aaron Bertrand 57 secs ago

@tbone this is not stack exchange's problem.

Is it not this network's job to provide a home for every question on the internet, regardless of quality.

tbone

Jeff's philosophical goal was to make the world of computing a better place. He used to be concerned about this type of thing, because he is a thoughtful person who listened.

jcolebrand

@tbone reddit, hackernews, wikipedia talk page, this chatroom, twitter, discourse, asksqlservercentral, tumblr, shall I keep going?

bluefeet

6:11 PM

@Zane or just summon @Shog9 :)

jcolebrand

There are plenty of places to ask those sorts of questions, and they always end up yielding the same problem: "That used to be acceptable in 2012, but it's not today"

tbone

reddit is the only reasonably viabe one out there for this type of question.

jcolebrand

@bluefeet you mean call for @shog9

@tbone bull.

tbone

I should ask this question on tumblr? hahahahahhaha

Aaron Bertrand

@tbone then ask on reddit. Don't expect a site where it's not allowed to change just because you think it should be allowed.

jcolebrand

6:12 PM

@tbone You will get just as valid answers from tumblr as you will from us.

They just won't be authoritative for a long period of time

Aaron Bertrand

I think you need a little more experience here to be able to tell everyone else how it should be run.

tbone

that's kind of my point, because it's not allowed, I will obviously get 0 answers

bluefeet

@jcolebrand yes, where o' where is @shog9's floating head?

Zane

Can we stop having this discussion please. I feel as though everything that can be said has been said.

jcolebrand

Stack Exchange serves a purpose. The purpose is not to be WalMart. The purpose is to be a specific type of data warehouse.

tbone

6:13 PM

I'm not telling people how it must be run, I am having a discussion about an idea. That you automatically assume I am coming in here demanding you run things a certain way is kind of the point.

billinkc

You've had 2 questions asked on dba.se. One answers, one closed as it didn't fit. You stated It's kind of the principle of the rule that bothers me which I would be equally annoyed but perhaps it's that you haven't been here long enough to understand how this site works. It's a pity other places are dead but that's not a reason to change our model

jcolebrand

@Zane didn't we discuss going outside?

Shog9

WHAT

jcolebrand

@tbone well, it was your tone. Also, the fact that you're still going off about it thirty minutes later (I'm using an arbitrary internet timescale)

Lamak

@tbone you keep using some circular logic here. "I can't ask this question on SE because it's not allowed, I can't ask it in the site that they are allowed because they are dead." They are dead because they allowed those questions in the first place!

Aaron Bertrand

6:14 PM

Here come the fireworks

bluefeet

@Shog9 ping :)

Aaron Bertrand

BAM

jcolebrand

@Shog9 wait, you aren't dead?

JNK

oh no who pinged shog

Shog9

'evning

bluefeet

6:14 PM

@JNK I did

tbone

I understand very well how SE works, I am simply voicing an opinion that in some small ways, it is not perfect.

Zane

Oh thank god. @Shog9 can you please put an end to this horrible conversation.

jcolebrand

@bluefeet I think I did with the superping

Kermit

here's my kid making noise

►

Aaron Bertrand

@tbone oh please tell us what site is perfect for everyone

jcolebrand

6:15 PM

@tbone we never suggested it was perfect ;-)

tbone

"They are dead because they allowed those questions in the first place!" - now that is a presumptuous statement.

Lamak

@Shog9 new avatar?, gives kind of an emo vibe

jcolebrand

@Shog9 so how's the disemheaded body doing these days?

JNK

@tbone Do you want a swiss army knife which does a lot of stuff but sucks at most of it, or do you want a scalpel that excels at ONE job?

Shog9

not really new, but

bluefeet

6:15 PM

@jcolebrand so fancy you are with your superping

Shog9

shows off my illegitimate mod hat, so

jcolebrand

@JNK hey, can I have a corkscrew on my swiss army knife to take into battle?

@bluefeet we gotta teach you about the @@

tbone

Well, you seem to refuse to acknowledge that this is in any way a problem...~perfection, no?

jcolebrand

No

bluefeet

@Shog9 the discussion is why can't we have shopping list questions

jcolebrand

6:16 PM

I also refuse to acknowledge that my car doesn't fly

bluefeet

@jcolebrand my skills are lacking

jcolebrand

That does not imply that the car flies

I just refuse to support ridiculous claims

Lamak

@tbone you kind of said it yourself though. Given the importance of SE the other sites are dying. And what's the difference from SE and those sites?, quality control

tbone

"Do you want a swiss army knife which does a lot of stuff but sucks at most of it, or do you want a scalpel that excels at ONE job?" Assumes with absolute certainty you can't have both in this case.

Aaron Bertrand

@tbone it is a problem we are willing to live with - the occasional person having a tantrum because their off-topic question is off-topic.

Shog9

6:17 PM

@tbone here's a quick reading list:

48

A: What exactly is a recommendation question?

Short answer? "Recommendation question" is shorthand for "you didn't describe a problem, you just asked for a list of things." create a pdf from a pdf in PHP? Is there a PDF library for PDF that can start with an existing PDF and add more things on to it? Currently I'm using ezPDF but ...

29

Q: Why are "shopping list" questions bad?

This is intended to be a canonical reference question that we can point people to. Maybe even a FAQ. My question was closed for being a "shopping list question", even though it was absolutely on topic and programming related. Why?

support questions

That last one is long

jcolebrand

And old

Didn't you write one of those

Shog9

start with

8

A: Why are "shopping list" questions bad?

Shopping questions ask What X should I use? What is the best X? What are the possibilities for X, and their advantages? Which is better, X or Y? They do not always literally involve shopping: the comparisons may be between several free things, or between intangible things such as "Which job ...

jcolebrand

I'm pretty sure you have a walker nowadays

Shog9

it's a cane, thankyouverymuch

tbone

thank you @shog9

jcolebrand

6:18 PM

@Shog9 hahahahahahaha

basically this is Shog

Aaron Bertrand

@Shog9 does it use a tennis ball as a foot though? Sure that wasn't you in Up!?

jcolebrand

only, without so much body

billinkc

Ca caw, ca caw, raw!

jcolebrand

Shog9

hey, you gotta jettison unnecessary weight if you're gonna clear the trees

jcolebrand

6:19 PM

I should really get back to my presentation I'm working on

billinkc

@jcolebrand If it's not on your car's ability to fly, you're working on the wrong presentation

Aaron Bertrand

Zane

6:44 PM

I'm kind of bumed we didn't hear more from dumb guy about that MySQL Workbench "problem". He was filling my afternoon with comedy and curiosity.

swasheck

apparently the irony is lost on The Heap that a user named "tbone" asked for a "meaty declaration"

Zane

Apparently time didn't ease @ypercube's rage on that bart comment.

ypercube

@MartijnPieters There is one thing being direct and another treating others like idiots. I can understand how comments on the Internet can be misjudged but my first reaction to the specific comment was "Fuck you Bart." But I ain't Dutch to answer like this. — ypercube 1 min ago

@Zane I was at ease actually. But Martjin's comment set me up.

Lamak

@swasheck what is a trogre?

swasheck

6:59 PM

@Lamak troll ... but they're not trolling ... they're just ogres

Transcript for

The Heap™ – Consultancy ©®