@Jefromi And lots to love! Best search engine out there, by way far.

I would love to dive into finding out which one is the best, but the team (none of whom has seen a researcher making a request) needs to make these decisions within the next 2 hours, so we just pick one and hope for the best :(

Actually, I'm really impressed that you work there - it's a very competitive field.

haha yeah, I'm lucky enough to work on one of the more universally liked things.

yup, not that many big names in software industry who have a positive reputation

@rumtscho I've seen you frustrated in the past and always feel bad for you. It's hard when the team isn't always in agreement.

@rumtscho yeah sometimes you just have to take a stab at things and build something and find out later if it was a good idea, I guess. (and sometimes people are too rushed for their own good)

@Jefromi You must get great benefits and other things to make your life easier, at least I hope so.

@rumtscho I meant within Google, too. Search tends to fare a bit better than some other products.

@Sue It's not a problem of the team, the team being three developers whose job is to write code, period. It's more of a problem of the whole project, and also of other teams not doing their work properly.

When I started, I was excited to hear that one of the 9 workpackages is a pure requirements engineering package (each workpackage is done by a different team)

then within two weeks I realized that they have not participated for months and nobody has an idea what they are up to. They delivered some very basic stuff at the beginning and there has been nothing more since.

@Jefromi Truly my only gripe with Google is that they own too much of my stuff! I can't delete or change anything Google related without crashing everything!

@Jefromi within or outside Google itself? I remember for example that people used to love the feed reader, and then the company decided to shut it down.

Either of you watch a program called Halt and Catch Fire? Probably not rum cuz you don't live in US.

@rumtscho I dunno if the balance is exactly the same, but generally things that are externally unpopular are also unpopular with some people internally.

@Sue I must say that even I, as a geek, am too lazy and too busy to take custody of my own digital stuff and do all the work associated with it. And it would take me much less time than the average joe! So sure, if we all give Google or somebody like them that custody, we wake up with them, well, having custody of all our stuff.

It's a great show about the early days of coding for personal computers before they really existed, and Commodore 64 was a massively big deal.

That's what my son had when he was young.

I think US shows get exported more than you think. Although I haven't watched this specific one.

I think TV here shows more US programs than domestic ones, except for a few unusual channels (state run, mostly).

@rumtscho Actually that's interesting, and a good way to look at it.

I personally don't have a TV, but got Netflix about two years ago, and the stuff I watch on it is again very American.

@rumtscho It's in it's third year but the first is on Netflix - might be fun for you.

I'd cut the cord here but Netflix doesn't have enough cooking shows, at least not US Netflix.

Yeah, my attitude is that people just have to decide what tradeoff between cool things and personal data on a company's servers they're okay with (and for the record Google is very strict about keeping things private). So... if you've decided it's worth it, don't worry about it too much.

Although there was a German comedy show I watched, and currently I somehow got a cute Japanese one. Not anime, an actor-played story about a young professional moving to Tokio and starting work in a tiny lingerie company.

@Jefromi Hmm, I think that many people (including me to some extent) think it's not worth it, and are unhappy about it, but still too hooked on comfort to do what they believe is better.

@Jefromi I've been looking a lot at privacy lately, and Google seems to be good, but the privacy help pages lead back and forth in a big circle until you get back to where you were before! I think it's Google + that I have trouble understanding.

@rumtscho which is kind of my point, that's a decision that it's worth it given the options.

We also use gmail, which is the only thing worth having as far as I'm concerned.

So until someone figures out how to build similar things without the bits you don't like, you kinda have to take it or leave it.

@Jefromi I think the average user like me probably takes for granted the massive amount of work done by companies like Google. It's easier to criticize than appreciate.

If I could just figure out how hubby and I could have separate profiles while using the same google stuff I'd be fine.

yeah, family sharing is hard...

which bits do you want to share?

@rumtscho I've noticed a bunch of new Korean stuff on Netflix here in USA too.

@Jefromi What I want is to unshare some stuff.

Right, but what do you actually want to share? If it's nothing, then you can just use separate accounts entirely.

@Jefromi I've wanted to have separate accounts, mostly because every time one of us logs in or out of something, we mess up each other's stuff.

If I understand right, and you're using chrome, you want this: support.google.com/chrome/answer/…

entirely separate profiles, so on the same computer, you can switch between them instead of logging in and out

Firefox has a similar feature, I think this is it, but haven't used it in forever: support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/…

I'll take a look. We use Firefox.

I have profiles turned on on Firefox. It works well.

So you can have more than one profile with the same account?

If you set a different theme in each profile (I assume it lets you), then it really helps avoid forgetting which you're in.

Wait, I thought you wanted different accounts?

you get to see a window to choose profiles from when you start it up, but I think that you can use an addon to also switch profiles while you have an open window.

@Jefromi The same account is fine - we just want to be able to manage them differently.

So, examples of things you do and don't want to share?

email? search history? log-in to non-google things?

@Jefromi Mostly log in stuff.

And email profile, without needing a separate gmail address.

how do you imagine a separate email profile, but with the same email address?

I think this is not something people of our generation imagine as a real use case, so there is no real support for it :(

the best thing for incoming mail is probably to set up a second account, and have all mails from the first automatically forwarded to it

@Jefromi Hmmm, I'll have to figure out exactly what I want and ask you how to do it! Since you're being so kind.....

but the answering will get uncomfortable quickly

if it's the same email address, then it's going to be pretty hard to avoid you both seeing the emails that are sent to it

@Jefromi Yah, it's not about privacy. We read all eachother's stuff.

It's more about things like passwords. If I change anything, all of a sudden he's out too. Which of course makes since we have the same account.

Sounds like you want to share more not less?

@Jefromi I think she wants something which feels like having two accounts to access the same inbox, with equal rights. Two separate authorizations, one system.

Like setting up a project's sharepoint space and setting up multiple users for it.

Use a password manager that you both have access to, so that if you change a password it'll remember?

@rumtscho Yup, things like that, although I'm not wording it well. for instance, in Google I can have my own account, so that if I "log-in" I can see a profile of my own rather than his, and have my own privacy settings?

He also likes to be less private than me, and uses more google things like messenger.

@jefromi now that's an idea I wouldn't have come up with. It's brilliant.

@Jefromi Is there such a thing?

@Sue I know what you mean, I have seen other people do it, or at least want it and trying to live it as far as the system permits. I'm afraid it goes against the way e-mail was designed, and is not supported by any mail provider I know.

It is more like you actually want to have separate accounts. That's the only way you can have separate settings, etc. But you view the emails as shared documents which both of you should be able to read, shove from one folder to another, answer, etc.

so two separate accounts (one account=one person) but a single e-mail inbox.

@Jefromi Here's one example. If I search Google (on Mozilla) automatically a "Profile" of his appears on my screen. If I go to edit it, like privacy settings, obviously it messes him up. I'd rather have my own.

If I log out there, I've logged him out of everywhere.

Is that because a google search automatically opens Google+?

I don't think you can have a single Google account but have two sets of settings inside it.

We also seem to be sharing search history but only in one direction. If I do a google search here on my Windows 10 laptop using Firefox, it shows up in his history, but not the other way around.

I think the profile you're talking about is just the profile for the Google account you're logged into and... one account is one account.

@Sue browser history or search history?

@Jefromi Both I think.

search history is associated with Google account; browser history it's up to the browser to synchronize (don't know if Firefox does that)

Any idea why when I search for something he sees that, even on his Android, and I don't see his?

where does he see it? as a suggested query in the search box?

I think so - I'm going to have to ask him more specifically since I now know I have my own special tech!!!! I don't want to be asking you things that I'm not sure of. For some of our problems I think Microsoft is to blame...

anyway, you definitely can't have two separate search histories on one account

For instance, he logged into his Microsoft account the other day on one laptop and his desktop was from a different computer on our network, and he has lost his whole theme, icons, etc. That's prob a Microsoft thing...

@Jefromi Interesting.

So does search history include both what I enter in the google box or what I enter in the browser window, or are those different?

search history as in Google search history, what you've put in the Google box

browser history is all the URLs you've visited

That's what I thought.

@Jefromi but what about people who search through the search-and-url-combined-field?

I'll have to be more clear in asking him what he sees.

@rumtscho if there is a Google search, it's in your search history

I think it's browser history. He's at work right now, but if I search for something he'll see that I did it, so it must be showing up in his browser history.

Doesn't matter how you issued the query; Google keeps that history for you based on what it's seen you search while logged in.

That's what I wondered.

@Sue could still be that it's showing up as a suggested query, which is supplied by Google and thus based on your search history, since Google doesn't have your browser history.

OK, so from Google's point of view, it's clear. May be less clear for the user, who might forget if he visited a site by typing the URL, or typed something else like [seasoned advice] and clicked on the first Google result.

Firefox's URL box does not suggest search terms, even if you have typed those terms into that box

@rumtscho Yup. Is google in charge of YouTube history?

Firefox's search box suggests search terms though.

@rumtscho yes, which it does by asking Google, far as I know

@Sue yes, Google bought YouTube some years ago, and now it is a single account used both for Google and YouTube.

@rumtscho I thought so, by the way it works. Like if I log out of google, I can't get into my playlists in YouTube.

Also, the recommended stuff has changed.

And if I log out of youtube, all our devices are logged out.

Yes, this is on purpose. You have a single account which you use to access multiple services. You log out of the account, not of the service.

@rumtscho Right. I think the whole thing becomes a double-edged sword.

@Sue This seems weird.

I can definitely log in and out on one computer without logging affecting others.

Double-edged how?

Imagine that you are at a conference. You have been given a name badge, like all attendees. You can choose to wear it, or not wear it.

@Jefromi I can do that within the apps, but as far as the computers go, we're either logged in everywhere or nowhere. Do I have a setting wrong someplace?

@Sue within the apps?

@rumtscho Double edged in that what's awesome about it is also what's frustrating about it!

You cannot choose it such that the catering staff sees your badge but the presenter of a lecture does not see it.

Can you be specific about what you log out of that causes this behavior?

that's what the account does, it pronounces your identity to everybody when you are logged in, and hides it from everybody when you are logged out.

Although the "on different devices" part breaks the analogy.

@Jefromi Hmmm, I'm going to have to go back and do my research so I don't give you wrong information, especially since you're taking so much time to help me! As for different google profiles, would we have to have separate google accounts to do that? And separate gmail addresses? You may have answered that earlier in the transcript.

Actually, he's calling me from his work at 7:30 so I'm going to practice doing a few things and get sense of specifically what to ask you.

I was talking about Firefox profiles; they're like different computers, so you can do what you like in them, log into five of the same accounts and seven different ones.

If you want to have separate Google accounts in order to change settings separately etc, you do need separate Google accounts.

@Jefromi So that mozilla link you sent earlier will show me how to have separate profiles on Firefox>

yes

@Jefromi But that wouldn't necessarily separate our searches since Google is the search engine, or it would?

again I'm not sure whether you're asking about Google search history or browser history

different browser profiles have separate browser history

different Google accounts have separate search history

@Sue the reason people want separate Firefox accounts is to be able to log in into two separate Google accounts from the same browser, typically.

@rumtscho I think that's what we want.

and.. I'm not aware of Firefox syncing browser history, so I'm guessing you're talking about search history, but I dunno if y'all have installed a sync extension or something

so if you use two separate Firefox accounts, and two different Google accounts are logged in from each, you will have separate search history (and separate browser history)

@Sue except you keep saying you want to keep using the same Google account as well, so there's a bit of a conflict

@Jefromi We definitely haven't installed anything! Wouldn't begin to know how. I think what I mean is that we'd like to use the same Gmail account, not necessarily the rest of the google stuff. Is that impossible?

if you use two separate Firefox accounts with a single Google account, this shouldn't separate search history - but it will have no advantage over using a single Firefox account with a single Google profile, so it is moot.

@Sue it's not possible in a simple way

you could forward the one shared email to your two individual emails

@Jefromi Okay. I don't want to do anything as complicated as that.

or... each have two profiles, one for normal use, one for the shared account

@Jefromi that's what I've been thinking to suggest too, and it works for incoming, but it gets troublesome when they start answering.

and your normal use would be your personal account, not his

@Jefromi Right, because now it's his.

So, in order to have two actual google profiles, you need to have separate google accounts? And then all logins would be separated?

Meaning I'd have a different google password?

@Sue Jefromi is suggesting that there are a total of 3 accounts for the 2 of you

both of you will share a password to your current account

I think I've confused both of you enough for one night. Can you just quickly tell me again the difference between browser history and search history?

Also, we have ridiculous sync issues - like when he gets a new phone he ends up with all my contacts and pictures, although we've started to learn our way around that. But that's a Microsoft thing, not google, as far as I know.

I remember in the old days of email, you could just have one account with different usernames, like sue@gmail and rum@gmail.

@Sue I was suggesting two firefox profiles on each of your computers, and three google accounts. You'd have a profile for the shared account, and a profile for your account. He'd have one for the shared, and one for his.

@Sue You're using microsoft phones?

If you sign into the same microsoft account, they'll presumably share microsoft information.

If that's the case, you'd need to use separate microsoft accounts in order to keep things separate.

@Jefromi Nope, that was a mistake - we have to use Google to get into our phones, not microsoft.

@Sue I have never heard of that being possible!

At least not with gmail.

Administrators in corporate networks can do some tricks which can make it possible to work somewhat like that.

@Sue Okay well, in any case, same thing: you need to use separate google accounts to keep things separate.

You can sign into multiple google accounts on one phone, and you could use your personal one for basically everything and the secondary shared one just for the gmail app.

@Jefromi That makes sense, and is probably what I mean, at least partially.

I did try to set up two profiles on our Windows 10 computers, but the Geek Squad said it's too complicated and would have to depend on who was the administrator, which is probably what you meant. All three of our Windows computers call themselves administrators.

@rumtscho Many years ago you could have up to 5 usernames on the same email account.

At the time we had dial up, so it was really old!

Our cable provider was Comcast, and we had 3 different blah blah@comcast.com users.

And all three of you saw the same emails when you logged in?

@rumtscho Yup, but we could have individual profiles.

Oh wait, maybe we didn't see the same emails....

I'm pretty sure we did though. I'll have to remember that.

It is not technically impossible for Comcast to set it up that way, but I have never heard of any email provider actually doing it. It is not how email is "supposed" to work.

@rumtscho email aliases are a thing

The funny thing is, we not only have a Google employee here in the room, we also have a regular who works at Comcast

@rumtscho You?

I used to love comcast!!!! Now we have Charter and they're awful!

No, not me. Comcast is strictly USA. It's Jay.

Oh. I wonder if he's old enough to remember that. I'm going to be talking to my hubby shortly and will then do some things and get back to you patient friends, maybe tomorrow.

He is probably younger than your dial-up contract, but I think that, if the company has some kind of internal museum-y thingy (some companies do this, writing down history that way), or simply a way to contact employees who have been there forever, it might be a fun occasion for him to discover these things or people

@Jefromi I'm pretty sure this is the option that will help us the most - separate google accounts. Then we can share what we want and not what we don't. Like I said, it's not as much about privacy as it is about upsetting eachother's devices.

You guys are awesome!

Have great evenings!

@Jefromi aliases are a thing, but when you reply, it usually gets replied from one account only. Also, I don't think I've seen a schema where each address is an alias for another one from a "ring", there is always a master.

Have a great evening too @sue!

@rumtscho ah didn't see a ring mentioned

@Jefromi she didn't say it outright, but how else would you make it transparent to the user?

send-from depends on the client; it's definitely possible to configure a lot of things to use a given send-from address

let's say they have A@comcast.com, B@comcast.com and C@comcast.com

I suspect she just had multiple accounts, but

now I send a mail to A@comcast.com and B and C also get it

you can point a and b at c then set up clients to check c but send as a or b

yes, I can point A and B at C

but I can't point C at A at the same time, I think

but you don't need to

so if somebody sends a mail to C, A won't get it

for A, B and C to always see the same mails, you would have to make a ring structure

because people from outside will be sending to any of the three addresses

no, you only give out A and B, but even if they do send to C, it doesn't matter

they're aliases, there's only one "mailbox" to check

the clients are accessing just a single set of emails

Ah, OK, wait, right. So C's mailbox contains all mails.

yeah, aliases, not email forwarding, there's only one actual account

and addresses A and B are aliases of C.

I don't know anything about the standards underneath this, but I know at the very least that aliases exist for some google.com addresses.

as for replying, I don't know if that would have worked.

Hey guys, we just figured one thing out, and will talk about the rest when he gets home.

@sue we assumed you are already away, and dived into the deep tech talk. Don't let that scare you!

@rumtscho Are you kidding - I was excited that you guys were doing your techy talk. Maybe I'll learn something. I was going to come back later and read the transcript!!

@Sue As you like it :) I'll continue the tech talk now.

@Jefromi currently, the aliases in my job are set up such that a reply always comes from the "master" account. So if that's the way they have to be set up, it will be impossible to send a mail to A and get a reply from A instead of C. But I don't know enough about Exchange administration or mail protocols to know if this is the only option, or if they can configure it differently.

So, we both have Androids, Motorola, his is G4, mine's E3. If we type anything into the Google box (not our internet, which is Chrome), my search history comes up and his doesn't. Make any sense?

I'm pretty sure that in principle you can make your send-from address anything (and spammers do this) but individual mail servers can put requirements on if they like, e.g. google proooobably won't let you pretend to be another user.

But if you're building things and want aliases to work, you can allow someone with acces to B to send as A if A is an alias for B, or whatever.

@Sue ummm not really

unless by "his" you mean "his from a different google account"

but if you're both using the same google account, then your search history should be going into it, same for both of you

@Jefromi I know, that's what's so weird. We are using the same google account.

I guess it's possible there's a per-device setting for whether your searches are saved to your history, and he turned it off?

I don't really know off the top of my head if that exists; all I know about is disabling search history completely.

@Sue so, no search history at all comes at one of the phones? Or search history comes up on both, but only contains the terms you have searched for?

@rumtscho Search history comes up in both, but only shows the last 5 things I've searched for, and none of his.

And it's not just that yours are more recent?

He can search for something, then go back, and start to search again, and his previous query won't ever be suggested?

@Jefromi Nope, we just quickly tested it-he searched for something on his. Then we each went into the box and my history popped up on both and his showed the thing he had just searched for and what I had already searched for.

(the "only the last 5" is just the UI - it only shows five things a time. If you type a letter or word to start it'll generally give you history completions that match it, but weren't in the top 5)

@Sue wait, so his is showing his own history

and the issue is that you didn't get his history on yours?

@Jefromi On mine I can get only my completions, on his he gets his own completions, but yes, his is showing his history and mine, and mine is showing only my own history.

Okay, do you ever see his searches? It could just be a sync delay?

that should show all the search history for the account you're logged into

I would expect both of your searches to be there, if you're both using the same account.