The DMZ

8:03 AM

@kiBytes, Thank you for your comment. This is very serious and I'm not beginner at all and not ill. but this is off topics please accept my please accept my apologies. — user3171796 26 mins ago

clearly he is a beginner, all information security professionals use at least 7-ply tin foil hats, not 6-ply ones

Adnan

@AviD @RoryAlsop Any tips on anonymizing/declassifying an audit report to make it presentable as a sample of previous work?

This is both for clients and potential employers.

TildalWave

8:19 AM

@Adnan that could be a good question for the site IMO

Adnan

@TildalWave Are mods allowed to share stats like visits per day?

Actually, specifically only visits per day

TildalWave

8:34 AM

@Adnan well we're not supposed to be specific, but since a lot of that is actually on the A51 pages of individual sites, especially if they're still in beta, I guess it's hardly a secret

I think that the main point is not to unwittingly reveal some sensitive info, not to not share general stats

@Adnan have you tried on quantcast? quantcast.com/security.stackexchange.com

Adnan

@TildalWave The reason I'm asking is actually because it appears that once a site has graduated from beta, the Area51 stats seem to freeze.

TildalWave

@Adnan yes, that's true, but they don't on quantcast ;)

I think it's safe to say that any info that's available there can also be shared by mods from their own, since they'd be almost equal

Adnan

@TildalWave How accurate is that quantcast?

TildalWave

@Adnan pretty good

make sure that you don't have some filter enabled

like geofilters

Adnan

@TildalWave It's interesting to see the dips on weekends.

Seems legit to me

TildalWave

8:41 AM

for global stats yes, it's fairly accurate ... but I'd neglect those by country

Rory Alsop

Morning folks

TildalWave

morning @Rory

Rory Alsop

6 layer tinfoil hat? just... what?

TildalWave

hehehe

Rory Alsop

@Adnan - sanitising audit reports - can be relatively straightforward. What were you after specifically?

If for examples in a presentation, I tend to conflate actual instances a bit, and remove anything that would narrow the possible subject down too much

TildalWave

8:47 AM

yeah but it's a lot of details to watch out for, so I thought it wouldn't be a bad idea asking on the site and have folks chip in with their suggestions, it's too easy to forget about some pesky little detail

Rory Alsop

9:04 AM

it's a bit of a list-y question though...

Lucas Kauffman

9:15 AM

BEST CLIENT EVER: "Don't care about reporting, I will write it, just give me all the issues"

TildalWave

wow new color for the toolbar notification icon

used to be more orange, now it's blood red

I nearly thought I did something bad :)

Adnan

@LucasKauffman :(

Can I have him/her?

@RoryAlsop Since I'm still a junior in the InfoSec business, I'm sometimes asked to show samples of my previous work, mainly in forms of report samples.

That's pretty much what I'm looking for

AviD

@RoryAlsop @Adnan the problem is that the generic issues in a report are boring, and rarely some of the better work to be represented. The more interesting, "quality" stuff is most often very specific. Especially if asked "what kind of clients do you have?"

In general I am okay sharing who my clients are, and what kind of projects I have done, but not what projects I've done for a specific client. This makes that difficult.

And, in the rare case that I have managed to extract interesting information without anything identifable, it tends to lose enough context to make it understandable.

Or maybe I'm just a lazy putz.

@LucasKauffman I didnt think clients like that usually go to EY.... ;-)

Adnan

9:33 AM

@AviD That's nice, especially when you got you used to the "quality" stuff. As a junior, most of my work is with the generics at this point.

I think I'll just strip out confidential information and call it a day.

AviD

@Adnan fair enough.

so its a question of showing that you can do the work, and not so much how great your work is?

kiBytes

@Adnan once I am the boss here I will hire you if you are willing to come to Spain =)

5 years from now =D

AviD

Spain is a small market. Go Global.

besides, most of the work we do can be done remotely.

kiBytes

If you want to work for the enterprise I am working for

you have to make your office time =)

7:30 to 16:45

AviD

ouch! wtf!

Adnan

9:44 AM

@AviD To be honest, if I'm trying to get a junior position without extensive InfoSec experience or relevant certs, I'd assume showing that you can do something. No?

@kiBytes You know, I love Spain. It's fantastic to visit and have fun. However, I really do fancy living or working there.. at all.

AviD

@Adnan yeah, makes sense. Though if I was hiring for a junior position, I wouldnt expect to be shown prior examples of work, I would test you myself. More a question of "what you can do now" rather than "what have you done in the past".

Potential over experience.

Always should be true to some extent, but even more so for junior position, where (lack of) experience is not proof of potential.

@Adnan s//not/ ?

and like I said, really no reason not to do most of the work remotely.

Adnan

@kiBytes @AviD Oh yeah, sorry, I do not fancy living o working there.

@AviD Once again, AviD confusing the employment situation of the globe with his own.

AviD

IT'S 2014, PEOPLE!! FER CRYIN OUT LOUD!!

@Adnan hahaha

well.... I am spoiled, but no more than I believe everybody is entitled to be.

Adnan

@kiBytes Out of curiosity, how much would be the hourly rate for a software developer in Spain?

kiBytes

as a consultant or hired?

Adnan

9:50 AM

@kiBytes Hired.

kiBytes

In my development department the average anual rate is about 45k

Lucas Kauffman

@AviD they usually like us to report, this one just needs to get shit fixed asap

kiBytes

But this is NOT normal in Spain, the average in spain will be between 30-40k

well, not in Spain, I meant in Madrid, in Spain I guess it will be lower

As important expenses consider, a beear 1 €

*beer, coffee 1.2 €

AviD

@LucasKauffman Like I said, those types usually don't go to EY... ;-)

@kiBytes is that EU? USD?

Adnan

@kiBytes Aha, I was shocked when you said 45k. It sounded too high for Spain.

@AviD Oh Jesus, I hope he meant EUR

kiBytes

9:53 AM

2 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, a Living room and a Kitchen with garage around 900-1000€

EUR of course

AviD

@Adnan Romanian Lei.

Lucas Kauffman

@AviD are you saying we are incompetent :O?

kiBytes

2.5 k / month more or less

Adnan

@AviD What an asshole

AviD

@LucasKauffman not at all. I am saying that EY is usually a bit more... documentation-heavy, shall we call it.

kiBytes

9:53 AM

that is the NET

Lucas Kauffman

@AviD oh yes

Adnan

@AviD oh okay, not an asshole

Lucas Kauffman

@kiBytes yea Madrid and maybe Barcelona, but that's about it

AviD

@kiBytes so is that for a fresh developer, well experienced developer? Web app dev or systems specialist? etc....

kiBytes

Yes @LucasKauffman that Madrid and Bcn but the beer will cost around the same in Spain

Lucas Kauffman

9:55 AM

@kiBytes true

kiBytes

@AviD mid-senior not specialized developer (I am talking always about average in my department)

for a fresh man

Me myself, ie, I was paid 24k in my first job

as a linux kernel developer

Lucas Kauffman

@kiBytes contractor or worker?

kiBytes

worker

Lucas Kauffman

that's quite high

kiBytes

well I was somewhat specialized

Adnan

9:57 AM

@kiBytes Whoa! That's actually pretty good.

kiBytes

I am talking about 24k € anual

Lucas Kauffman

@kiBytes that's still not bad

Adnan

@kiBytes Yeah

Lucas Kauffman

especially for spain

kiBytes

ok ok

You know there is very little people in Spain into the embedded systems

Lucas Kauffman

9:58 AM

@kiBytes is that before or after taxes?

kiBytes

so I have an advantage here, before the taxes

Lucas Kauffman

aaah before the taxes

yea that's about the same for me then

kiBytes

after taxes it should be around 1.8 k month

(in 12 payments, because usually in Spain we have 14 pays, so monthly is a bit lower)

Adnan

@LucasKauffman I doubt it. You guys pay an obscene amount of taxes

Lucas Kauffman

@kiBytes well he said before taxes, so yea that's the same, after taxes I get about 1.45

kiBytes

10:00 AM

and we are paid a productivity twice a year, around the 10%

Adnan

@LucasKauffman Oho, okay. Got it.

kiBytes

The problem in Spain and I don't know in the rest of Europe

is that if you want to increase your salary you have to jump jobs

unless miracle...

Lucas Kauffman

@kiBytes depends on the job here, you can have progression and promotion

Adnan

@LucasKauffman For how many hours a week?

kiBytes

unfortunately here, in my current enterprise promotions are given to the older

Lucas Kauffman

10:02 AM

so your wage, on average, increases 6% for a progression and about 10 - 20% (or sometimes even more) for a promotion

kiBytes

and not to the better

Lucas Kauffman

@Adnan 38 hours

anything over those 38 hours is considered overtime which needs to be paid at 150% (but taxed at the maximum rate)

kiBytes

in my enterprise is 40 hours/week normally, 35 hours from june to september

Adnan

@LucasKauffman Yup, then we're not very far.

kiBytes

24 days off (weekends are not counted)

Lucas Kauffman

10:04 AM

@kiBytes same

unless you take recuperation of overtime

kiBytes

You are in Belgium Lucas?

But my enterprise is a rare avis

my direct boss earns more than 100k

I get upset any time I remember the amount...

AviD

@LucasKauffman WAT. At EY you only work 38 hours a week? Are you sure you're not on halftime?

Lucas Kauffman

@kiBytes ha you get upset by that? my direct boss earns 200k a year, the guy managing all our advisory services together earns 1.2 million. But to be honnest considering their hours, I'm not sure I envy them :)

@AviD no that's just by law

you can only do 38 hours legally and the rest is considered overtime, which legally they can't force you to do

Adnan

@Lucas Are wages governed by some laws in Belgium?

Lucas Kauffman

@Adnan minimum wage

but that's about it

Adnan

10:12 AM

@LucasKauffman Minimum wage per sector?

Lucas Kauffman

@Adnan nope just a single one

Adnan

@LucasKauffman Ooooh. Now that makes sense.

Lucas Kauffman

@Adnan 1387,49 euro before tax

Adnan

I was wondering why your salary is slightly lower than it should be.

Lucas Kauffman

which in my opinion is WAY too high

AviD

10:13 AM

@Adnan Finland has a different minimum wage per sector??

Lucas Kauffman

@Adnan what do you mean lower than it should be? Don't forget I also have another 200 euro monthly allowances a company car and a fuel card paid by the company :P

Adnan

@AviD per sector, per experience level in that sector.

Lucas Kauffman

@AviD Swiss also has that

Adnan

@AviD per kind of work in that sector

AviD

Thats not what minimum wage means!

thats just formalizing expected salary ranges....

SEI has that, too....

Adnan

10:14 AM

@AviD No no no... that's the MINIMUM

Lucas Kauffman

@Adnan and they also give me a train card first class for wherever I want to go

AviD

@Adnan yes, exactly. The range starts there.

Adnan

AviD

@Adnan how much gaming goes on, as to which sector or kind of work a specific company is in?

kiBytes

@LucasKauffman I get upset when I see what he does and the decisions taken and the amount of time we have to save his ass (pretty much because we are saving our...)

Adnan

10:15 AM

and here are the levels:

Lucas Kauffman

@kiBytes find a new job? :p

@kiBytes don't you have 360 reviews?

kiBytes

@LucasKauffman I am reworking my career into the security path =) (A path I shouldn't left to begin with...)

Adnan

@Lucas For your work, your minimum wage in Finland would be 2,157 EUR before taxes.

kiBytes

And no, we don't do 360 reviews...

Lucas Kauffman

@Adnan yea but would I get a car?

Adnan

10:18 AM

After taxes that'd be about 1,800 EUR.

kiBytes

we aren't even reviewed

Adnan

@LucasKauffman Hey hey.. I'm not saying it's better.

@LucasKauffman Also, many companies do offer cars.

Lucas Kauffman

@kiBytes that's what they do here, you assess the people on your level, below you and above you

Adnan

The minimum salary is independent form benefits.

Lucas Kauffman

@Adnan nice

@Adnan well anyway my current wage is higher than that, I earned 2k when I started, I'm at 2.220 now

kiBytes

10:20 AM

@LucasKauffman so a year ago I ended my MsC in Information Security but, of course, although I have notions and a bit of theoretical knowledge (and common sense)

Adnan

@LucasKauffman Sweet! :D

You also have the distinct advantage of buying very good beer cheaply

kiBytes

If I change from this enterprise to another I will lose a lot of money every year

so I managed to switch into the security department in my enterprise

TildalWave

@Adnan interestingly, I should be at 3.5k then based on those descriptions ... can I have that and still live here with way smaller expenses? :))

kiBytes

keeping my salary and having a really big opportunity to grow here since the security team is not working very good here

But I have to wait some more time to go into (a month or so)

AviD

@LucasKauffman I hate that. It's stupid, and its a manger's cop out.

Lucas Kauffman

10:22 AM

@AviD manger's cop out? :p

AviD

so he doesnt need to do his job of, well, managing.

Adnan

@TildalWave Hmmm.. there must be a way to do that.

TildalWave

@Adnan Doubt it, because the reasons for those minimums don't really apply then, it's about social security in Finland, not Slovenia. I probably could telecommute for a Finnish company, but they wouldn't be obliged to those regulations then.

AviD

@LucasKauffman linkedin.com/today/post/article/…

Lucas Kauffman

@AviD yep we also do that bell thing which I hate

AviD

10:26 AM

what bell thing?

when you ring a bell after you get lucky?

Lucas Kauffman

@AviD bell curve for performance reviews

AviD

wasn't that a gong?

@LucasKauffman ahh. ala Stack Ranking?

Lucas Kauffman

@AviD yea

AviD

I do like the gong thing, though .

TildalWave

@AviD a la IQ tests :)

AviD

10:28 AM

> 360-degree feedback is just another robotic and fearful attempt to foist management tasks off on employees who should never, ever be put in the position of giving performance reviews to their peers.

TildalWave

@AviD there's a simple solution to that, just show them those images from @Adnan and say fine, but then my pay grade is a few levels higher too

and possibly those of management a few levels lower :)

AviD

I do seriously love Liz's writing. I have to go back and see if there are any posts I missed.

TildalWave

@AviD Liz?

AviD

@TildalWave the author of that 360 review article.

TildalWave

ah

AviD

10:35 AM

LinkedIn started popping up her posts at me a while ago.

She does an excellent job at describing exactly what I am spoiled about, and at explaining why I am spoiled about them.

And what kind of company I would agree to go work for.

several times I almost took a job that was, as she calls it, a "godzilla" environment. I got lucky, in that I happened to read some post of hers that day, and reminded me what up.

I got lucky, and turned down the job.

I believe everyone should be happy at work, with their job, the company, and the environment there.

3

Some people call this "spoiled".

TildalWave

it's an interesting article I give you that

in one company we did it with party vouchers and ballot boxes once, was quite fun

kiBytes

@AviD that is a good phrase to star =D

Adnan

@AviD Ughh! We have those as well. They suck!

AviD

@Adnan I always found them annoying and counter-productive, but I didnt always understand what was wrong with them. That post does a good job.

kiBytes

I believe that this is a way your boss have to know if you have problems with him, so you will end up having more problems with him.

AviD

10:44 AM

@kiBytes but as she says, why cant I just, yknow, tell him?

Adnan

@AviD Especially when the employee's whole-year performance is reduced to what 4-5 people say about him/er.

AviD

It comes down to trust.

@Adnan yeah, once-a-year reviews are another whole problem.

If there is a problem with my performance - why wait 10 months to tell me? If there is not - then why bother? If you want to commend me - dont save it up!

Adnan

@AviD More companies need to understand that

AviD

yeah. And I have no interest in working at a place that doesn't.

then again, I know, I am "spoiled".

But if more people would insist on this - more companies would be forced to learn it.

Adnan

@AviD The problem in this case is that "insisting" doesn't mean just voicing your opinion firmly. In this case, it means not being able to pay the rent or the food.

AviD

10:50 AM

@Adnan fair enough, I'm not belittling the situations where someone "needs this job".

thats why I say I can allow myself to be spoiled.

Rory Alsop

@AviD - spoiled is good.

AviD

@RoryAlsop Of course it is. But not everyone is in the some position.

Adnan

@AviD Which is what sucks about this.

AviD

If you live in a remote town far up the Arctic Circle's rectum, and there are only 3 companies in town - you dont really have a choice. ;-)

Adnan

@AviD Or, in fact, they don't really have much of a choice.

AviD

10:53 AM

at least, until you have the ability to work remotely.....

AviD

12:29 PM

Is today April 1st?

kalina

Woman slapped across the face with a large fish, police outraged <-- for some reason I am unable to read this article without laughing...

AviD

I see a couple of article headlines in a tech newsletter:

> Professionals Are Addicted to Buzzwords

duh, that's newsworthy

> RSA Chief Calls on Governments to Respect Privacy

umm... yeah, sure. What now?

> Now its Official: Microsoft will Update Windows 8.1.

hooookaaaay.

Adnan

@AviD You should find better newsletters

AviD

@Adnan Yeah, I'm thinking that.

Adnan

@AviD Speaking of which, I should find newsletters. I'm subscribed to zero newsletters about anything.

Terry Chia

12:38 PM

@AviD It's even funnier when general tech sites try to write about security issues.

AviD

@Adnan kinda useless. It's like an RSS feed to your email.

Or a twitter feed to your email.

Adnan

@kalina Was that really on BBC? Did you hack my computer to make it look like the link loaded from BBC?

Terry Chia

@Adnan Get on Twitter. You find more interesting stuff there.

Adnan

@TerryChia Ahhh.. so finally I have to actually create a Twitterer.

Terry Chia

@Adnan You don't actually have to use it, but it's very useful for keeping up-to-date with the latest stuff.

Adnan

12:40 PM

@TerryChia Is there like a list of Tweetie news sources.

Security and what not

Terry Chia

@Adnan I just follow some of the famous security guys.

Adnan

@TerryChia Yeah, that narrows it down for me. Of all the famous security guys, I only know Schneier, Thomas, Avi, Rory, and Terry.

Terry Chia

Matthew Green, Thomas Ptacek, Stefen Esser.

The /r/netsec twitter feed has some good stuff at times.

Adnan

@TerryChia Do you recommend I use my real name?

(I feel like a noob.. to everything)

Terry Chia

@Adnan Ehh, up to you really. My twitter account is private.

And I don't really let anyone follow me.

AviD

12:43 PM

@Adnan I think at first it doesnt matter at all. Later, if you start with posting too, then it depends if youd rather have anonymity or personal brand.

I've been leaning more towards the 2nd as of late.

Adnan

@TerryChia Private as in "nobody can see my feeds", or "nobody can reach my profile"?

Terry Chia

@Adnan 1st one. Twitter doesn't really have much in the way of a "profile".

Adnan

@AviD Hmmm... this reminds me of what @Scott said about personal brand. I realized that I've spent the last 3 years actively hiding searchable traces online (other than StackExchange, and, very recently, LinkedIn, by enable the public profile)

@TerryChia Aha, got it.

AviD

@Adnan yeah, I did too for quite a while.

It's natural, as security professionals we are all paranoid and extremely private people.

Adnan

@AviD Except when it comes to discussing our sex life on public, achievable, and indexed chat rooms.

2

AviD

12:48 PM

but I have been shifting a lot more towards more "open" models in everything, my online traces included.

Terry Chia

@Adnan That's only you really.

AviD

@Adnan heh, of course.

Adnan

@AviD Yeah, I've been shifting towards "open" models as well.

@TerryChia True true. But hey, it's so good that I want to share it with you guys.

AviD

@Adnan oh, no need. Really. Please don't.

Adnan

@AviD So, last night...

AviD

12:55 PM

heh. nothing today?

no, nevermind, keep it to yourself.

Adnan

@TerryChia I've just created an account. Twitter suggested about 15 people to follow. 6 of them are my real life friends. HOW DID IT NOW?!!

AviD

freaky, eh?

Adnan

@AviD NO no.. come on!!!

I used my Hotmail alias

and the only think identifying is my first name

Scott Pack

1:16 PM

I've been getting this on Twitter for months.

Twitter's actually really nice for getting involved in the security community.

I've ended up having good conversations with lots of people that way.

Terry Chia

@ScottPack It's usually where cool stuff gets announced as well.

Scott Pack

Also this.

cad-comic.com/cad/20140226

@TerryChia Sometimes yeah. I'm actually surprised at how well it works as a method by which to get exposed to people.

AviD

@ScottPack I guess I should really start actually using it more.

do you guys use the web interface, or a client tool?

also, how often / how much are you on?

Scott Pack

Every now and then I'll follow a few more people based on the "Others like" emails. I picked up one guy that way who was pretty nice and seemed to know his stuff.

Terry Chia

@AviD I use the web interface on my desktop and the official iOS client. My twitter tab is always open.

Scott Pack

1:20 PM

Imagine my surprise when I subscribe to a new podcast and figure out he hosted it.

@AviD I pretty much exclusively use a mobile app.

I'll pop over to the web interface if I want to search for something specific or review my followers, but that's about it.

AviD

and considering how much traffic goes through, do you try to always catch up, or just see what is happening now?

Scott Pack

It depends on how busy I am and how much stuff there is.

Since I use a mobile app I'll typically pop it up every so often and read.

I'm a fast reader so it really needs to be more than 100 unreads before it becomes problematic.

kiBytes

But the salt still needs to be stored somewhere, and will likely be accessible to the attacker. How do you overcome this problem? — amar 50 mins ago

How is it possible to know that a "thing" called "salt" exists and then having this doubt?

Scott Pack

Also look around at some of the non-official apps as well. Find the one with the quirks that bug you the least.

AviD

@ScottPack hmm. Thanks.

@kiBytes misunderstanding the purpose, and the effect, of salt.

I see this reaction all the time, almost every single time I explain or discuss hashes and/or salt.

Scott Pack

1:29 PM

I sense a pattern

AviD

1:42 PM

►

/cc @Adnan @Lucas @TildalWave

hey @lucas, why u no pop up? It's as if you were never here.

Scott Pack

OHAIGUISE

kiBytes

@TerryChia

yes it is dupped, but I looked for it before asking...

wasted time xD

(I will close it)

Terry Chia

@kiBytes We already have thorough answers covering almost everything about password hashing.

It's one of the most common topics after all.

Scott Pack

@AviD Sounds about right.

@AviD The worst part about that video is how often it cuts to different shows

kiBytes

maybe I can leave it opened I don't know... will this rephrased question be useful?

or it is just a waste of space?

AviD

1:53 PM

yeah, took me a couple of moments to realize I wasn't going crazy.

Terry Chia

@kiBytes Not really... it's not even a problem.

Scott Pack

@AviD Especially considering how well they did with the audio.

kiBytes

Yups, I will definitely close it (I had second thoughts since it took me a bit of time to write it xD)

voted

this question security.stackexchange.com/questions/52279/… gets better and better

I really think we should reopen the question and try to answer from an IS point of view

TildalWave

2:21 PM

@AviD oh gee thanks for lining me up there with the rest of the career bunch, now if you'll excuse me I have a job to do :P

AviD

hahaha, sorry, well you were participating in that conversation....

TildalWave

@AviD And that's to you a signal that I have a career? Dude, I'll be 40 soon, I approve careers of others now!

I just look at them and think now, which one of these could live on pot noodles for a few years?

AviD

hehehe

oof, feeling too lethargic... need to go run up and down some stairs, maybe some stretching. Get the blood flowing again.

later...

CodesInChaos

4:49 PM

My preferred attack technology using electromagnetic waves is a camera looking at keyboard and mouse.

TildalWave

5:16 PM

@CodesInChaos you should add remote sensing to that, it sounds more ominous :)

Rory Alsop

@kib - fixed.

:-)

TildalWave

hehe

Anonymous

the infosec reactions tumblr should be in this room's RSS feed

AviD

@PatoSáinz we asked for it. Tumblr doesnt get oneboxed.

Anonymous

@AviD damn

Terry Chia

5:30 PM

in case you're wondering how bitcoin works: imagine you take your real money and put it inside computer. then you say goodbye to the money

Tweeted by methadonna on February 26, 2014 at 1:39 AM

strugee

@TerryChia /me cries

such misunderstanding. many crypto. so FUD.

Terry Chia

@strugee It's... a joke.

Anonymous

@strugee i lost my faith in current cryptocoin

strugee

@TerryChia I know but you just know some idiot is going to take that as the truth

AviD

@PatoSáinz the thing is, as a pure currency, it has some real good basis. Problem is there is no such thing as "pure currency".

Terry Chia

5:33 PM

@strugee Meh, it's half true.

strugee

@AviD elaborate, please?

Anonymous

@AviD all i want is a liquid market between BTC and USD

AviD

Perception always affects value, even if it's stoopid, misguided, and clueless. Also explains WhatsApp.

Anonymous

is that so difficult

Terry Chia

@PatoSáinz Yes.

AviD

5:35 PM

@strugee as a distributed cryptosystem, it is pretty decent. It has some good protections built in, though I would not hazard an actual analysis in detail (I dont know quite enough about the details, perhaps @Adnan or @CodesInChaos. Or @Thomas).

The problem becomes with the liquidity of market between BTC and USD. (as an example.).

strugee

ah. that makes sense now

Scott Pack

Honestly? That's not the liquidity I'm worried about.

AviD

And, since it is not recognized as a "real" currency by banks, there is no single market value, it becomes more like buying stock.

which is as good as playing the lottery.

strugee

@AviD and the fact that the ecosystem literally creates a culture of fragmentation for itself with things like Litecoin, Dogecoin, etc.

Terry Chia

Hey, let's make a Rorycoin.

3

AviD

5:38 PM

@strugee yeah, that doesnt "fragment the ecosystem", that creates competing ecosystems.

I guess you could say it fractures the (potential) community of cryptocoin users.

strugee

@AviD exactly

Terry Chia

@TildalWave This might interest you. arstechnica.com/science/2014/02/…

AviD

but, realistically, besides the hardcore miners and such, it has become a buyable item of fluctuating value - so most of the "users" will be buying it just to hope to profit and dump. Like stock market day traders, if you will.

strugee

@AviD and there's problems with the centralization model, IMHO.

I've written a small piece on it, lemme find it

AviD

semi-centralized....

dinner time! later folks.

TildalWave

5:43 PM

@TerryChia cheers, tho it's pretty clear what happened and why nobody bothered to look

strugee

tumblr.strugee.net/post/71618120911/…

see ya @AviD

TildalWave

NASA got too confident and STS flights seemed almost as a routine again. If they were on their toes with each mission like they probably should have been, this wouldn't have happened

Scott Pack

There's a bar near my folks' house that has a line of sight for launches from Kennedy. I remember once we went in and my dad asked if anything was going on and the waitress said, "Not really. There was a rocket launch this morning but nothing interesting."

I was floored by that statement. We reached a point where strapping a big fucking bomb to someone's back and removing it from our planet, without damaging anything, is so routine as to be brushed off.

Iszi

@ScottPack And the same could be said for dropping a tin can full of people from orbit and having it reach the ground without damaging anything or killing the occupants.

Scott Pack

@Iszi Yeah. Flight, as a whole, is pretty wild stuff.

TildalWave

5:56 PM

@ScottPack Yes, this. BTW even for Apollo 13, which was supposed to be only 3rd landing on the freaking Moon!!! was not even aired on tellies until that news of Huston we have a problem came in. People were watching some pilot to some crap series that replaced live broadcast from Apollo.

Iszi

@ScottPack Oh, I was just talking about Shuttle landings. But yeah, you're right about that too.

Scott Pack

I'm not so put out that this person didn't appreciate the amazingness of what happened, but more impressed that we have scientifically progressed to the point that it was considered commonplace.

tylerl

You notice how every time you mention a hashing function in any context, people start getting all uppity about how necessary it is to use PBKDF2 instead of a single SHA round for hashing passwords. It's like crypto is a religion.

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