Not a bar, but plays one on TV

1:11 AM

I was just reminded that many people think all dictionaries are prescriptive and absolutist. [has a small sad]

1:22 AM

@eimyr Watch the video @BESW posted on the Thermian Argument; it's a very good rundown. Prose might provide internal logic, but it doesn't justify the creator's choices. They chose to create the conditions that support their internal logic, too. Their choices exist outside the prose, and the prose exists in a greater context -- reality. (Being unfamiliar with The Witcher, I'm not commenting on how this character was actually handled. I just can't take "it's backstory" at face value.)

trogdor

1:42 AM

well and that is all fine, but for criticism of the Witcher games, specifically about there being no brown skinned people in it (yes people have complained about this) it is set in a place and time that literally had no one who wasn't pretty dang pale

adding anyone with darker skin tones is just something you could decide to do, if you wanted, it doesn't deserve criticism if you don't, which this video seems to imply

BESW

@trogdor This... is debatable. With evidence.

trogdor

I agree with it, and it's point, in general but some assumptions seem to be being made as well that I don't entirely agree with

people have also complained about there being Hispanic and White zombies in large abundance in Resident Evil 5, which is set in a nondescript are of Africa

I can personally see why the creators would not want to just make black zombies, that in inself could have drawn a lot of fire

but it did not make sense in the setting they made

I personally don't like it when people add a lot of scantily clad women, or do horrible things like excessive dismemberment and graphic murder and such and then use this kind of thing as a flimsy exuse

I am not trying to defend that

but sometimes this kind of thing is over analyzed or criticized after the fact when someone was just trying to make an internally consistent world based off of some element of history

we have both of these problems co existing in our society

they practically feed each other sometimes

BESW

Like, setting aside the "elves and gnomes are fine but POC stretch credulity" thing, the "not actually a historical place but loosely based on one" thing, the "wait, just what do we mean by Slavic mythology here anyway" thing, and the "there are people of colour in a recent Witcher expansion" thing... Poland was a massive trading power in Europe and was very familiar with people from other places and of other colours.

trogdor

2:01 AM

I just find, of all things, complaining about the lack of certain skin tones for people you meet in a game to be ridiculous, and in this case it certainly is not less so

yes people of other skin tones could be around

doesn't mean they have to be

Pixie

2:13 AM

People of color are frequently erased from history and are included very sparsely even in media set in places and times they should, by all means, be present in. Even the assumption that people of color didn't exist in a given place and time is frequently an erroneous one based on a rather Eurocentric version of history. Combine that with the importance of representation and the points @BESW brings up... it's a pretty valid complaint, I think.

trogdor

I suppose I can see where that argument comes from, but applying it universally still seems overly critical

I will say that I agree that people of certain ethnicity and nationalities are left out of a lot of things in media (and other things but that is a whole other discussion)

but in this particular case like, I have heard a lot of people ragging on the Witcher games for what amounts to an at least relatively inoffensive setting

I do personally think they have what amounts to a little too much sex (or a lot too much depending on people's limits or preferences), but a lot of other games have that issue too

not to say that makes it ok, just to point out that there are other things people could have been complaining about that made at least a little more sense

the Witcher games do seem to tend to over-sexualize certain women who otherwise are typically pretty badass

I haven't seen all the bits of all 3 of the games, but I have still seen at least once casual sex scene in each of the first 2 and already more than that in the third. thankfully the worst I can say is that there are (seemingly anyway) too many of them in the games for my personal taste

and the problem with it in my opinion is basically what we have been talking about, those parts of the game are literally only in there to pander to the consumer

Pixie

2:45 AM

I can't say much more about Witcher games specifically as I haven't played them, and it's not my experience to try to discuss, but here's a pretty in depth article dealing with representation in Witcher 3 and other games. I can say, as a woman, I don't feel that the conversation about race representation in games is taking away from the conversation about over-sexualization of women.

trogdor

I was not saying that per se, though I can see how it can look like that

but this particular topic, about this set of games, it just seems to me like nit picking when someone says the people who made these games didn't include enough people of any different color

I won't say they couldn't have done it

but I will say I see no reason why they absolutely urgently needed to

and therefore, to me, calling out that aspect of the game seems needlessly spiteful

whereas if someone argued against the over sexualization of at least certain characters, that is something they deliberately put in the game rather than (at least possibly) casually left out.

and maybe they, and our world society as a whole, shouldn't be in the frame of mind where they can causally leave out every single person of different nationality or race or color

Pixie

That's a large part of the problem.

From the article I linked:

> But the lack of persons of color, and the lack of questions about our absence, comes from ignorance rather than animosity.

It probably just wasn't even considered. That is itself the major issue. It's not just that people of color weren't in the game, it's that so few people in the gaming press noticed.

Just as major media and consumers have been vocal about gender representation — with Call of Duty and now FIFA including playable female characters in upcoming games — we should want such discussion about race as well.

trogdor

I concede that that in itself could be an issue, but some people seem, at least according to the arguments they brought up, think that it was some kind of malicious intent instead of a product of a problem in the way media works right now

@Pixie there we go, that is pretty much what I am trying to say

Pixie

And that's why it's important to talk about it, because it will never be resolved any other way.

trogdor

true that is

I think part of my problem is that some people have approached this as "The Witcher Games are bad because" rather than, "We should really talk about the overall issue of lack of representation"

people have approached it as some attack on good representation rather than a product of our world society as a whole not treating the issue the right way

BESW

3:33 AM

There's a lot of misunderstanding and misdirection packaged into these ideas.

Criticism of an element of a creative work isn't the same as dismissal of the work's overall value, for instance. "Tolkien's exotification of the Easterlings is troublesome" is not an outright dismissal of The Lord of the Rings.

Folks on every side of an Internet debate tend to fall into that "bathwater = baby" trap.

Equally, examining a representative example of a systemic problem doesn't mean the discussion is only about that example.

trogdor

3:49 AM

I can see what you are saying

BESW

And when responses are framed as "historical accuracy" that brings in a whole bunch of extra problems. Chief among them is that it derails the discussion: instead of talking about creative choice and social trends, "Historical accuracy" attempts to remove the creator's responsibility for his choices and give him a moral high ground by implying it would be "dishonest" to have chosen otherwise (usually in the face of many other blatantly ahistorical choices the creator made).

This in turn demands that the discussion turn into a history lesson where the creator makes ridiculous and unsubstantiated claims based on pop culture depictions of history, and it's the responsibility of others to educate him before the discussion about creative choice and representation can continue. Since the creator is free to invent whatever "historical accuracy" claims he wants, the creator has taken control of whether the discussion will ever return to its original topic.

"Yes, I chose to have only [quality] characters in a situation where others could have been included" is a space in which discussion can happen. "I had no choice because [provably false statements only partially related to the subject]" is a form of Gish Gallop. It may be borne of sincere ignorance rather than active malice, but it's no less derailing for that.

trogdor

I wasn't so much saying they had no choice, I won't speak for the creators of the games or their PR people

but it seems like people came out of nowhere with an accusation against the Witcher 3,

again, this doesn't mean there is no problem with under representation

but my personal viewpoint on this specific case has me thinking some people just decided to snipe at something

BESW

Witcher 3 came under fire in particular when its creators marketed it as a well-researched setting firmly grounded in historical accuracy.

trogdor

this doesn't mean everyone who thinks the Witcher games have this issue are all wrong

BESW

Had they not made those claims, it would not have gotten any more attention than anything else with its particular problems.

trogdor

4:00 AM

@BESW that I can see an issue with XD

I did not know that bit

if they marketed it in such a boastful way they can live with getting some backlash

BESW

Personally I think it's sad that a franchise which seems to want to frame Slavic peoples as awesome and interesting chose to ignore their position as an intercontinental economic power (which necessarily means they've got people from all over visiting and settling there, that's just the way these things work).

trogdor

I have not been researching this, my personal bugbear about it was that it looked like it blew up over one specific instance of a problem that has been ongoing

that kind of thing gets me mad, because if you want to make a big stink over something you can at least be a little fair about it

but it is fair if you make a big stink when the people you are making the stink about just made a huge, and very likely completely/mostly inaccurate boast

my problem with this in general stems from the fact that people seemed to be suddenly deciding to pick out a single offender

and there is not just one game that is out, even just this year or so, that has had this problem

what is more, I didn't think this was the worst offender seeing as even though all (or possibly just most of) the humans are pale skinned people, there at least are dwarves and elves and some other mythical "races" that could be considered in some ways stand ins for having different "races" of people

BESW

And every single one of them gets poked at with a stick by the Internet for that failing. The Witcher guys decided to poke back by making ridiculous unsupportable claims.

trogdor

@BESW this is true

but it blew up in a big way

and I did not see the reason why it had

BESW

trogdor

4:11 AM

they honestly should have just left that bear alone if they didn't have anything to say other than "historically acurate!!!!"

@BESW indeed

just to be entirely clear, I really hate it when people decide to make a big stink about one particular game or movie without a clear good reason

if it hadn't been for the fact that they decided to poke the bear back, this incident would have been completely ridiculous

if you want to bring up a problem, that is actually great, just please bring it up equally for equal offenders

BESW

In effect, what happened was exactly what I described above:
"Hey, the Witcher has almost no diversity at all. That's troublesome because it's an active choice that's part of a pattern of societal marginali--"
"HISTORICAL ACCURACY!"
"--well, okay, it IS easier to summon evidence of historical diversity than talk about the impact of creative choices on society."
"I DO NOT RESPECT YOUR SOURCES!"
"...here are more sources."
"YOU ARE IMPINGING ON MY CREATIVE CHOICE!"
"...I thought you were saying historical accuracy made the choice for you?"

trogdor

if I was the guy responding to this stuff I would have made the argument that it should be enough that we have other races in the form of dwarves and elves and more than that

The Witcher is obviously not entirely historically accurate,... because magic exists in it

that enough already kills the argument for that

it could still be called very loosely historically inspired but that is about it

BESW

There's another argument in there, about made-up people not being an effective substitute for actual people: if the only actual culture being depicted is Slavic, no amount of made-up cultures will make it more diverse in terms of representation of actual cultures and peoples in the media.

trogdor

a lot of things are not historically accurate but have still taken some amount or other of inspiration from history

@BESW that is true, but at that point you need to start asking if every game ever needs to represent every culture out there

BESW

That's the Bechdel Test fallacy: not every film has to pass the Bechdel Test, but if a vast majority of them do, we have a problem.

trogdor

4:18 AM

you said yourself, The Witcher prides itself on its depiction on one particular culture or set of small numbers of cultures

I don't know how accurate they are in that depiction of course

BESW

Here's a Polish person on that subject.

trogdor

but they never said "look at how culturally diverse our game is" unless I am mistaken and they did

at which point, come on guys, no you are not

BESW

@trogdor That's conflating two issues. They did not make claims to be diverse; they made claims to be accurate in certain ways. The diversity issue is more constructively discussed in terms of modern trends in media.

trogdor

my argument at the moment is, these are games. literally made for entertainment, tying the hands of a creator or developer because they have to feature certain cultures in their game is no better than the fact that our world society doesn't represent certain races/nationalities properly

BESW

No, not every game has to be diverse. But so few of them ARE diverse that many people consider it a problem. If we want a shift in that trend, to see more diversity, it's kinda reasonable to ask everyone to try to be more diverse in their games instead of sitting around staring at others expecting them to start.

Pixie

4:23 AM

@trogdor That's not the question being asked, and it's not really a relevant question until such a point that there is real diversity in games. Right now, there is not. It isn't so much "every game must represent [x]" but "why is [x] never represented in any game?"

trogdor

that is the problem

BESW

Not every film has to pass the Bechdel test. But because SO MANY DO, it's reasonable to ask "why'd you make that choice?" when a film that could easily pass made the choice to fail it instead.

In this case, the answer to "Why'd you make that choice?" was GARBGLEARGHLE backtracking gibberish that first disclaimed their creative freedom to make that choice (in the name of historical accuracy), and then said that questioning their choice was impinging their creative freedom.

Thus easily derailing the whole thing into "education about historical diversity in Europe" instead of "discussion about contemporary diversity in media."

But as for "made for entertainment, don't tie their hands," I think diversity in stories increases opportunities for creative entertainment! The interaction between the focused culture and those it interacts with tell us a lot about the primary culture and offers cool new aesthetics, ideas, and dramas.

trogdor

I agree that this should be talked about

BESW

The Winged Husars wore leopard skins on their armour. That's... not a local cat.

trogdor

and they did put their foot in their mouth by stating that historically accurate stuff

if they did indeed have no actually racist or malicious reasons for not including a diverse number of kinds of people, I can definitely see how they might have been made a bit angry about being poked over making this mistake

BESW

4:36 AM

Well, sure. Ignorance made public can be embarrassing.

trogdor

things would have gone better if they just apologized and held it up as a mistake

we all know sometimes emotion goes over logic

and hindsight of course

BESW

I think the main reason Witcher got the hubbub is that they didn't have a smooth marketing team between the creators and the public.

trogdor

yeeeeeaaah

BESW

...but all that means is that other games with bigger, better marketing departments are avoiding public displays just because they've got better PR, rather than because they're somehow less of a problem.

trogdor

that looks like the problem now

I think one of the things I am afraid of is this

if someones main goal is this "He was mainly interested in writing interesting story, with interesting setting and cool characters." (quote from that linked article about the author of the book the games are based on) and no malice is involved, I don't want the person or people with that particular goal to be punished for making an easy mistake to make

BESW

4:42 AM

The question, in my eyes, is less "Why did people pick on Witcher?" and more "Why aren't more games getting attention for these problems?" Obviously the exact nature of the Witcher debacle should not be repeated, as there was bullying from all sides and that's not helpful.

trogdor

that being said, it isn't like we should not all discuss the fact that our society and media make it easy to make these mistakes at least some of the time

BESW

@trogdor Unfortunately, many people confuse criticism with punishment and react accordingly.

trogdor

we do have excessive proof that we have these issues

@BESW yes that is true

and I was caught up in that myself

but I also have legitimate fears about the nature of these problems, and the backlash they can cause

BESW

Everyone involved has a responsibility to act for understanding and justice, rather than winning and vengeance.

But that's an individual thing, and we can't shirk our personal responsibilities because we think others might behave badly. Instead we can act as examples.

trogdor

in a way, I can only say that certain things that happen kind of scare me

it's just how my brain works

one example being some of the crazy sexist stuff I hear about

BESW

4:50 AM

That's understandable. There's scary stuff out there, and a mob with a sense of self-righteousness is one of them.

trogdor

most of it is of course against women, but I also sometimes see or hear about backlash

like the feminists who are not so much doing the right feminist thing of fighting for women's equality and rights as saying women are superior

this doesn't mean I hate feminism, far from it

there are just some people out there who miss the point that most feminists have in mind

which is to stop this whole issue of being looked down on just because you were born different in some way

thankfully I have not personally met too many people like that, and I should hope that is only because they are a very small group

unfortunately there are still plenty of misogynists out there too

and I feel like the fact that male misogynists still exist in much higher numbers than they should only contributes to both problems

it seems silly, I am sure, that I think about this relatively minor issue alongside what even I consider a bigger one, but I feel like the bigger one at least feeds the smaller one

the world we live in is so full of big problems and smaller problems that no one seems to care to bring up

and I can see why maybe these smaller issues might be more or less ignored, they literally are smaller issues

like, if the position were reversed, and we lived in a world where most societies were dominated by women, that would not make things better, it wouldn't technically make things worse either, but I suppose I have to admit some bias because suddenly I would be discriminated against for being a guy

I hate to say it that way, and I still think it is horrible that anyone is discriminated against for being a woman, or for being any color of skin or nationality that isn't white, or isn't dominant in their own country

the fact that that happens at all makes me mad

Derpy

8:26 AM

@eimyr ... I read something about an "locked out" home behind a wall that you can access only by exploiting some jump bugs. Made quite a scandal because of its content I seem to recall. Try and see if you can get some info on that.

Derpy

8:55 AM

Just a quick notice since I wasn't online during the discussion I seem to have sprouted. I wasn't criticizing directly the game intro just because "scantily clad women", the thing is that it seem to be made not because "context" but just because fanservice sells.

trogdor

I think that is the case honestly

Derpy

It is like you went into a Tomb Raider expecting Samus and you end up with the "Haven't you seen enough" shower scene

trogdor

a lot of games do that, and The Witcher seems to have a track record of it

Derpy

Yep, that was just an example of a general idea.

I mentioned it just because I was going to buy it. I didn't. Causes are most the one from your discussion above, the one I was stating originally and the fact that I had though of a different main PC characterization than the one given.

Anyway, now I have to wait for that Cthulhu zealot to continue the original discussion :P

Derpy

11:02 AM

@eimyr The zealot is back! All hail the zealot!

BESW

11:13 AM

eimyr

wat

a zealot?

I'm gathering my thought to chip in to the discussion

but it seems like I need to write an essay (happy to, btw)

and it would take a 20-page publication for you guys to respond to my rebuttal

so...

I'll be at it shortly

eimyr

11:32 AM

oookay

@BESW @Derpy @Pixie @trogdor Guys, I'd like to chip in, but it's going to be long and there are several topics that I'd like to touch so please be understanding. Cthulhu knows I'm not trying to flood or preach.

First, a disclaimer. I'm not trying at all to justify poor choices made by Witcher creators. They have a lot to answer for - Sex cards from TW1, biased portrayal of gay people in TW2, probably something in TW3, lack of POCs all over the place. I get it and I agree that at least some Zerrikanians (black ones) would be a good choice.

What I can offer is a bit of background, because I'm Polish and a fan of the franchise since 90's, read the books several times and have some understanding of the games too. I have not played TW3 so I'm not refering to any of the 3rd game.

So, there are two different elephants in the room here. First is lack of POCs and the second is Witcher's approach to sexuality. Let's start with POCs

It would be a great idea to include non-white people in the game. The PR handling of the issue was terrible and presented a very Polish point of reference.

eimyr

11:55 AM

When the books were written, they were considered a breakthrough in Polish fantasy prose. They tackled a wide variety of social issues, including discrimination. Most important technique used to do it is placing fantasy races in a situation similar to real world's minorities.

At the time of publication Poland did not have a large problem with black or hispanic people, understandably. It did however struggle with antisemitism much more than the western world today.

Thus, races like dwarves, robust hardworking bankers/engineers who live in ghettos, keep to themselves, have nothing against people and created an isolationist state in their historical homeland is a pretty good approximation.

The games followed suit with the world design, but did not include people of color. Why? It's hard for me to decide. I would however argue that many problems minority groups face are present and discussed in the games, but not represented by actual real-world minority groups.

It's a game of pretend and any disadvatanged but conflicted and vocal minority could take place of elves in this world. Therefore, I'm reluctant to bash Witcher franchise for not including people of colour, where there has been honest attempt to recreate these people's struggles and discuss them in earnest. It could have been done better, the buzz of "Witcher is whiter than chalk mine" is to the detriment of the discussion.

BESW

Once of the great strengths of science fiction and fantasy is the ease with which they can slip into allegory, yes. Talking about close problems can be easier when there's some distance allowed by the representation. It's one of the magics in original Star Trek which few of its descendants ever really managed to recapture.

eimyr

What the marketing should have done is "There are no POCs in The Witcher!" "Yes, we wanted to discuss privilege not only as a race issue. Nonhumans in the game are the people of colour as much as they are gay people or Jews or any underprivileged group that has their rights taken away." "Oh. But there are no POCs anyway!" "Yes, sorry, we will add them soon for free"

BESW

Whether it was useful to retain an allegory that 1980s Poland found useful when rebuilding it as a 2007+ video game franchise, if there was some more contemporary allegory which could have been used... I don't know the Witcher franchise or Polish social struggles well enough to speak to it.

eimyr

Poland still has problems with antisemitism. I believe the allegory is very appropriate especially today, 4 days after elections with some disturbing results.

BESW

I'm put in mind of Janelle Monáe's Metropolis setting, though: she uses robots as an allegory for the marginalised and otherised, so that she can speak to multiple experiences. But she does it within a fictional future where non-robotic diversities are commonplace and unremarked, rather than a future without non-robotic diversities.

eimyr

12:11 PM

Yeah, that's a nice take on it.

BESW

@eimyr Then again, based purely on your descriptions of the dwarves, I have to wonder how helpful it really is to make stereotypes sympathetic rather than to reject the stereotypes.

eimyr

I can understand why Sapkowski (the writer) made such a decision - the world was supposed to appeal to Polish people, it was never aimed at international market. CAn't say the same of the games though.

BESW

"Sure, those dwarves are isolationist and good with money, but they're not bad folks!" is a mixed message, to say the least.

eimyr

@BESW one of the high points of the Witcher is its ability to present groups of people as groups of individuals.

Dwarven culture favors beards, bawdyness and drinking, but there are unkempt beards, shy dwarves and moralising loners too.

BESW

It definitely sounds like there's some societal context cues missing from most discussions of the game's pitfalls.

eimyr

12:15 PM

E.g. Skalen Burdon, who wants to prove himself to his adoptive father, while struggling with his own allegiances. He wants to appear brave and strong, but he's just a scared kid facing war and he knows his father would allow him to stay at home during the battle.

BESW

I'm reminded of Metro 2033's move from a Russian philosophical novel to an English action adventure video game.

eimyr

Yeah, Metro was very Russian - especially the ending.

The message saying "people are powerless in face of circumstances and understanding usually comes too late" is deeply embedded in Russian culture.

BESW

Metro 2033 was a fascinating novel. It was a Gulliver's Travels style journey, with each station as a microcosm of a particular Russian ideology made manifest.

eimyr

I actually did not like it that much. My gf is a huge fan of MEtro universe and has all the major novels, but I didn't find it as refreshing.

BESW

I only read the original novel, and I haven't played the game.

eimyr

12:18 PM

same here

BESW

It wasn't a... fun... read, but it was very meaty and while I was tired after reading it, it was a good tired.

eimyr

The novel just appeared to me as a caleidoscope of common Russian tropes, all in a crapsack world with a likeable but ultimately powerless protagonist.

BESW

I feel richer having read it and thought about it. Perhaps largely because I'd just come out of reading a book about narrative time that contrasted Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, and I was reading Metro in that frame.

Metro is very amenable to being read through the critical lens of narrative time.

eimyr

Maybe. I've read it as a climate change from "King of Pain" short stories by Jacek Dukaj, which is a masterpiece of neologisms and societal commentary in a transhumanism/post-singularity world.

And Metro just looked bland in comparison.

You might enjoy Dukaj yourself, I think.

it's at least as insightful as Flowers for Algernon and more contemporary

BESW

(Narrative time is the idea that humans --consciously or not-- decide what kind of story we live in, and that decision influences our choices and our interpretations of whatever happens to us. The book I read on it was awfully dry considering the interesting ideas at its core. It looked at Russian history through this lens, and saw Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky as making competing arguments for and against the concept.)

(It was especially interesting to me because my religion is pretty explicit about the sort of story we live in, and at the time I was exploring these ideas I was also coming to understand how much of an impact that story was having on me.)

eimyr

12:27 PM

I see.

BESW

@eimyr I'm unable to separate Flowers from the forced-school-interpretation context in which I first read it. I found it aesthetically unpleasant and clumsily didactic.

I don't know if I'd feel differently had I been allowed to read and understand it on my own.

eimyr

I've read Flowers outside of school, as a short story. Impacted me deeply.

Same with Animal Farm and some others.

I'll be right back and if there is nothing more to add to this side of the discussion, I'd like to continue with the original argument, moving on to sexuality portrayal in TW franchise. Unless I bored everyone to death already.

BESW

No skin off my nose either way.

It was interesting to learn about the Polish context, but I've got no dog in this race.

eimyr

Well, I can continue, but I'm not sure what sort of context would you like to hear.

There is a lot of context that can be given to the books, but not a lot re: games, as in my opinion, CDPRed should have considered an international player more than they have.

BESW

That's probably more a pitfall of the video game publishing and distribution infrastructure; it's difficult to release a "local"-targeted game.

eimyr

12:36 PM

The first game was supposed to sell well in slavic nations and capitalise on the franchise hype. It sold unexpectedly well abroad.

There is no excuse though about the second one.

BESW

[shrug] I don't play much in the way of computer/video games, and my appetite for potboiler fantasy has waned drastically in the last ten years. Most of what I know is second- and third-hand from friends and the Intertubes.

eimyr

If someone would like to interrogate me on this, I'd happy to oblige.

Anyway, moving on.

@Pixie @trogdor @Derpy Sexuality in the Witcher

And boy, there is a lot of it.

The first game did it terribly. Casual sex, tittilation and the dreadful, obscene collectible cards for the girls Geralt bangs.

There is nothing to be said but apologies.

However, since the second game, something interesting has happened.

Again, TW3 is out of my scope.

Witcher wanted to speak about sexuality in a similar way that the books did.

I don't believe that games should be exempt from discussing human sexuality, films, theater and other media approach this topic, and games should be able to as well.

The only requirement is that sex is not used to sell the product, but rather as a topic that is presented and explored, or treated as a background or a factor in engaging plot storyline.

Argument that games should not use nudity is to me very flawed. Sex happens, and not all games should put veils on it. It's true that plenty of games use sex not as a way of conveying a commentary or narrative, but as fanservice, but we can't generalise. Witcher tries to be one of the games that discuss sexuality. There's nothing wrong with that.

Derpy

OK. Since you want to play TW3 I will avoid spoiler on the situation and the settings.

eimyr

@Derpy thank you! I've watched the intro, which I will refer to once I'm done with TW2 though.

It's fairly spoiler free too.

@Derpy there is one caveat - I've read the books so if I refer to some parts of the setting that are unique to TW3, don't be confused - existence of Ciri and Yen are known to me from elsewhere.

BESW

Mmm. It's a lot easier to cross lines between "discussion" and "titillation" when the audience/content contact point is interactive rather than observational. Takes a defter touch than most games can bring.

eimyr

12:50 PM

Okay, so TW1 was dreadful at this. Did the writers learn from their failure?

I believe they did - to some extent.

First they no longer portray sex as a win or success. No more casual banging as a game objective.

Second, they do not use sexual motives on females exclusively.

Third, they do attempt to portray various flavours of sexual relationships and not all relationships revolve around the protagonist. I'll get to non-hetero relationships in a sec.

Derpy

My point was just that, about 5 min of cutscene in the game with no actual play time so far, the game greets you with a close-up of a woman B-Side. That was censored in some countries to have the character wear panties. I just wonder it the game wouldn't have worked the same if the censored version was the original one. Forgive me for begin so prevented, but I think they had that scene with the precise idea of "Youngster will love it"

eimyr

Again, I'm speaking of TW2 exclusively at this point.

Derpy

That incident about the "sealed house" only reinforce my vision.

eimyr

If you don't mind, I;ll refer to TW3 opening after I address TW2, okay?

So, first 10 minutes or so of TW2 show us Geralt running from something, then chained half naked in a slammer, beaten, interrogated. A hard cop-type character is introduced, as well as his sexy female sidekick. Then, the story changes to an intimate scene between Geralt and his lover, with plenty of nudity and a peeking guard.

So what is the game about?

Search for answers, violence, abuse of power, sexuality and moral decay.

In that order.

And it's actually true! the game tackles these themes, almost precisely in that order of importance.

Two titillating characters in the intro. Ves, who definitely does not enjoy being order around as well as Triss, comfortable with her nudity towards Geralt, but not the guard.

Right there, very diverse statements about female body. Not to mention that Geralt is naked too, save for pants, and none are showed full body nudity.

I actually think that Ves is more tittilating than Triss.

Derpy

I see your point, but again, I wasn't really going to claim that the plot didn't do that. I just claimed that from a pure visual point, it would seem that they are playing a little with it, to the point that you start to ask yourself if all the visible skin is there because plot or because sell.

eimyr

1:00 PM

@Derpy oh, most likely both.

But it also serves as a statement of what the games is about and how it will try to discuss those issues.

Say, if Geralt is beaten, then we can expect more malicious violence later, right?

If Triss and Geralt make love, we can expect to further that relationship.

Also, it, well, looks nice to a viewer. No denying that.

Derpy

@eimyr The same claim I could do when someone discover that "Oh, so strange", a character modeled on an actress has a fully anatomically correct game model because one scene of the game had a back view of her with a towel.

It isn't a problem only The Witcher has. It is a common problem many game have.

eimyr

IS that a problem though?

I don't see sex in games by large as a problem.

I see misuse of sex in games as a problem, but I don't deny games the right to use it for good.

BESW

That's a discussion on a much different scale.

eimyr

TW has mature content. I know that upfront, just like I know there is sex in Game of Thrones.

Derpy

Again I ask, have you see both version of the scene in TW3 that I am talking about?

eimyr

1:07 PM

I agree to sex in TW because I expect it's used for good - discussion of sexuality, complex relationships etc. I disagree with sex in God of War, because it's just cheap porn.

Derpy

the original and the censored one?

eimyr

No, I would need a link because I think I've seen a random one.

Derpy

can't really do that now, but I think that a search for Witcher3 censored original comparison on youtube should give some results with the intro.

eimyr

this search points to censored versions of the game, Middle East etc.

OK, I've seen the uncensored version.

the censored has slight clothing additions, am I correct?

Derpy

yep. Now tell me... those underwear have some plot destroying effect? I don't think so, but it may be just me. I have the felling they went for the uncensored version just to sell. It is like that age setting in DOA someone mentioned before.

Sep 1 at 12:00, by doppelgreener

@Pixie At one point I discovered that DoA2 had an Age setting that went up to 99. I could not imagine why such a setting could possibly exist. I looked it up. It controlled the boob physics.

eimyr

1:12 PM

Plot destroying? No. But having read the books, panties in such a situation would be weird for that character.

Their absence certainly underlines character's attitude.

Derpy

maybe, maybe you didn't really need the close up, maybe they needed that too... the point wasn't just the witcher.

It was the "female body sells game" part

eimyr

Also, I really don't want to use the "don't like don't watch" argument, I despise it thoroughly. But while in games in general there is despicable, perverted attitude towards female body I agree that some games use it well. And they should be able to.

It's like saying artsy indie movies should show no skin whatsoever because porn exists.

Derpy

Yes, if they have a reason to do so, no problem with that. The problem starts when the reason is "To sell".

eimyr

Games that treat sexuality like GoW or DoA is the reason why the medium is considered immature and childish and denied the right to tackle tougher social commentary.

BESW

@eimyr This comes back to the Thermian Argument again: justifying a real-world choice by treating associated in-game details as if they aren't also real-world choices.

Derpy

1:17 PM

@eimyr You think that are bad, search for that one I named before.

eimyr

@BESW On the contrary. Could character's attitude towards sexuality be described just as effectively using non-nude scenery? I don't believe so.

BESW

@eimyr ...I'm becoming morbidly curious about your opinion of Barbarella.

eimyr

@Derpy, yes, broken spine Samus and high heel dress gown run in Tomb Raider is just as bad.

@BESW Didn't see it, but I wouldn't given a 10 second google search.

@BESW citing Thermian Argument here implies that there should be no sexually frivolous females in games, because to present them truthfully nudity must be used.

BESW

@eimyr That's a misunderstanding of the concept.

eimyr

It is not. I'm not saying that the choice to use nudity because character is that way is right.

I'm saying that choosing for the character to be that way and then using nudity accordingly is OK if the purpose is social commentary and not sales success or pandering to horny males.

BESW

1:23 PM

That's not the claim I invoked the Thermian Argument for.

eimyr

Then please point me to the right claim.

BESW

"Having read the books, [...] it would be weird for that character" to be clothed is equally true of Barbarella's character, or any other. Your justification was not based on any intent of the author, but a fully in-universe tautology that the character is the way she is because she is that way.

eimyr

Yes, that's true. I accept your invocation. If I might rephrase then:

Authors intent was to create a character that was using her sexuality with a certain attitude. I think creators should be able to use nudity in good faith to underline that attitude. Also, similar scenes in the books were used for the same purpose and it worked out for the best, so I'm willing to give the creators leeway.

BESW

(I mention Barbarella because, while the film's definitely and unabashedly focused on showing the audience a naked Jane Fonda as often as possible in as sexy of situations as possible, it's also sincerely trying to make social commentary the creators feel is important. Commentary which, they would argue, would be obscured if Barbarella's sexuality and nakedness weren't front and centre on screen.)

eimyr

(I have trouble deciphering that, so thanks for your synopsis)

BESW

1:30 PM

(The film doesn't try to keep titillation and exploitation separate from allegory and social commentary, and instead treats them as synchronous, symbiotic goals.)

(Whether it should, or if the ideas it tried to convey were sincere, or if it was successful, I leave as an exercise for others.)

eimyr

It seems to me that we are discussing whether games should explore sexuality and whether these games should use nudity for that. There is a very fine line between titillation and commentary, as BESW said already and I don't think we agree on where that line is.

To me in TW3 intro scene if someone was objectified it was Geralt, but I speak with a bias stemming from the background in the books.

BESW

@eimyr As I also said earlier, that sort of discussion is on a much much larger scope. To properly address it would perhaps require exploring conflicting concepts about the nature and purpose of humanity itself, the role of art and the artist in society, and the needfulness of the taboo.

eimyr

@BESW True. And we are likely to never reach consensus.

BESW

Consensus isn't necessarily the only endpoint satisfactory to all involved, but I suspect such a discussion is far beyond the ability of this chat to contain usefully.

Derpy

@eimyr Actually, my original idea was just trying to explore a different question. Do modern games sometime use violence and fanservice to sell games and cover up lack of ideas and innovation? But no reason to return over that now.

eimyr

1:38 PM

@Derpy My answer is yes.

BESW

@Derpy That seems rhetorical.

eimyr

We might differ though about which games are the ones that do.

I do have a point to raise about the Witcher series. Historical accuracy.

When I've heard it, thought I'll die from laughter.

Derpy

@BESW Probably is, the fact is that while I think that everyone remembers the games Atari was actually able to sell in the past, I also think that some of the modern most offending games would have probably been banned completely in the past.

I still cry inside when I read headlines like "A bug has identified in Seran Kagura that allows a player to select no equipped clothes for the PC" - Yeah... "bug", I am so going to believe that, especially after seeing what the whole game is about.

eimyr

There is an anecdote that Andrzej Sapkowski, the writer likes to cite. It was back when he debuted, with a witcher-related shorty story The road with no return His works was edited by the publisher, who archaicised the language say that "it's how it was said Back Then", and changed "intelligent" to "smart" among others.

He rebutted with saying that fantasy does not happen in any Backthen, but it's an entirely new world, so archaic language is not required, just like the social issues discussed in the work are not Backthenian.

Apparently the marketers did not listen.

BESW

Marketers rarely do.

Derpy

2:00 PM

At least it has some sort of meaning in the Ultima serie, since it was meant to remember you of medieval England. But yes, they often use it when not really needed.

eimyr

Oh yes, there is plenty of inspiration in the Witcher world.

But its a potluck of various cultures, historical periods and events

Even if, say, Kovir was supposed to be similar to 17th century Sweden, it is not historically accurate in any meaning of the word.

BESW

Some hours ago I linked a Polish blogger's article about that.

Derpy

@eimyr maybe if you go very very very very very far.... you could see that both hadn't got electric cars or internet connection. That is videogame history accuracy for ye :P

eimyr

I've read that. He is quite right in some cases, but he seems to be quiet about the point I tried to make earlier, about antisemitism context

Pixie

8:26 PM

There's... a lot here, a bit too much for me to directly respond to. Interesting discussion, definitely. Let's see... first, I don't believe games shouldn't be able to use nudity or that it can't be done artistically. I do believe that when a game's developers choose to employ female nudity, they need to be aware of the minefield they're standing in and prepared to face criticism for the choice that they made. There are a lot of ways to do it badly.

As I've said, I haven't played The Witcher, so I have no idea how those games handle it. Can't comment.

But I do not get the sense that they're really all that divorced from mainstream video game mentality: that they should include female nudity when possible because the intended male audience will enjoy it. They might tone it down in the second and work in some in-character justification, but was that their only motivation? Not likely.

There are a lot of ways to explore female sexuality without jumping into the game with nudity that, however in character it may be, is clearly also framed to be alluring for the assumed straight male player. And that's kind of its own animal: female sexuality in games tends to only get explored in that frame.

Pixie

8:43 PM

If it weren't so pervasive, things might be different. I am not a person who shies away from sexuality, which means I have a complicated relationship with things like this. Nudity is not inherently bad. Exploring sexuality is not inherently bad. Even titillation is not inherently bad. But the video game industry has such tunnel vision about its audience, and games often portray women in very frustrating ways.

eimyr

9:40 PM

@Pixie Amen.

I would say that TW1 treats sex and women as trophies and it's deplorable.

I would also say that TW2 recognises that sex is an important element of the story they want to tell and that inclusion of some titillation is going to be looked favourably by a mainstream player, so they go ahead and try to match the two.

So, you can (not be forced to) pay a prostitute for a night and it's... well... just how you think it might be. But there are also moments of intimacy, scenes that shock the viewer and sexuality presented is definitely not pleasant to look at and situations where all that build up turns out to have impact on your decisions as a player. It's complicated.

Much, much more than Bioware's ME3 or DA:O, which had a very idealised relationship story to tell. Even ME2 Jack romance was quite palatable and straightforward than, say, TW2 Filippa's adventures.

Shalvenay

10:13 PM

hey @eimyr

eimyr

@Shalvenay Hello!

What's up?

Shalvenay

not a whole lot...

do you have any suggestions re: what we were talking about a couple of days ago?

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