TRPG General Chat

@JoelHarmon yeah, that's not a bad way of looking at it depending on your universe -- but at the same time, in 3.x, alignment's tangled with enough that it's a bit tough to replace

Joel Harmon

among the more meta-y things that bothers me: three of the alignments (xE) are basically unplayable as most people see them, and one of them (CN) is, IMHO, horribly abused by many players

BESW

The first challenge with alignment is that it's totally unlike anything in the real world, but looks like it might be similar. So folks get attached to reading alignment in conjunction with real-life morality/philosophy, and that... doesn't work.

The second challenge is that, as you've seen, the various alignments were never intended to be equally playable.

Joel Harmon

@BESW that, plus it's surprisingly hard to get people to even agree on what constitutes law, chaos, good, and evil

BESW

3:11 AM

It's a construct to justify the mass murder of sapient beings as morally upright.

Shalvenay

@JoelHarmon that too -- I have that problem at times with "law" as I'm a due-process guy, which doesn't mesh well with many settings

Joel Harmon

@BESW it can be used that way, but it doesn't have to be

again, see definitions of good, etc

BESW

@JoelHarmon I'm talking about its origins.

Alignment only really makes sense if we look at it from the "how did this happen?" angle first.

Joel Harmon

I'm not super-familiar with 1e alignments, but that seems likely

BESW

And for alignment to work as a reason for PCs to be heroes despite all the murder, the PCs have to be toward the Good end of things and enemies have to be toward the Evil end. Alignment is back-engineered from a particular sort of story, to become a mechanic which enforces a game's ability to tell that story.

The further from that story the game moves, the less sense alignment makes.

Shalvenay

3:14 AM

and then not only is the concept itself screwy at a minimum, the interlocks are sometimes screwball as well

for instance, even on the relatively grognardian NWN RP server I play on -- they allow lawful bards.

Joel Harmon

the alternative is to stick to the non-sapient end of the monster manual, or require all murder to be done under the umbrella of law enforcement or military

BESW

As editions like 3.5 expanded to try and encompass every possible sort of story one might want to tell, alignment got dragged into increasingly unsuitable territory.

@JoelHarmon Or, yanno, tell other kinds of stories.

For example, World of Darkness doesn't care about making sure the PCs are cast as heroes.

And Atomic Robo doesn't expect all conflicts to end with one side dead.

Joel Harmon

@Shalvenay I think lawful bards make sense; court historian/story teller is a perfectly good trope

Shalvenay

@JoelHarmon yeah -- another one that gnaws on me personally are the alignment restrictions on the 3.5e Warlock -- that whole class is a victim of a designer tug-of-war, even.

Joel Harmon

@BESW I think the 'one side dead' is another thing that bothers me; I like to think that my NPCs run away sometimes

BESW

3:19 AM

Aye, D&D tends to paint itself into a utilitarian corner where the best way to neutralise any potential threat is to track it down and kill it before it knows you're coming.

Joel Harmon

I'm not sure how much of that is actually the system, vs. how the system is usually interpreted by players/DMs

so many people seem to miss the phrasing on successful encounters for experience

that, or they lazily just assume that only full murder counts

Shalvenay

@BESW yeah -- it's hard to deal with that even with DMs who are trying to make things that aren't just murder-puppets

BESW

While there's no such thing as D&D, certain elements and traditions combine to create the murder-hobo.

Joel Harmon

yeah, in a "thieves' guild" themed one-shot I told the players explicitly that everything should be solvable without actual combat; second scene, first thing that happened was very nearly combat, when a player decided to scale the side of a courtroom

BESW

@JoelHarmon It's not about XP; it's about broader efficiency and win conditions. In a "PCs vs world" paradigm where the GM and the players are also presented as rivals (the GM creates obstacles for the players to overcome as efficiently as possible), leaving survivors is just giving the GM/world leverage to turn on you later.

Joel Harmon

3:25 AM

killing everyone leaves just as much room for story-driven leverage as killing everyone

BESW

Obviously the GM can do whatever they like. But it's the same reason murder-hoboes are orphans with no friends.

Joel Harmon

that's more the fault of the players

BESW

Players learn not to give the GM any more handles than absolutely necessary, when the GM's job is to yank the PCs around.

Joel Harmon

I have a hard time sticking with that kind of thing, too, but I know at least one player who writes 5+ page backstories for one-shot characters

Shalvenay

@BESW yeah -- I'd blame the PCs vs World thing for murderhoboism more than I'd blame XP

Joel Harmon

3:27 AM

I reject the assumption that "the GM's job is to yank the PCs around."

BESW

@JoelHarmon So do I.

But we're not talking about universal truths.

Joel Harmon

but I'd have to agree that not everyone does

BESW

D&D's presentation of the GM/player interplay frequently creates an antagonistic social dynamic wherein the GM is trying to manipulate the PCs into doing what he thinks will be good for the game, while the players are attempting to retain as much character agency as possible.

Joel Harmon

@BESW I think the last part of that would need to be amended away from 'agency' and toward 'completing objectives/bypassing obstacles'

most of the rules for players aren't around choices they can make in game from any kind of personal/moral view, it's about murderhoboing

BESW

This ties back to alignment, in that choices like "Chaotic Neutral" are often made for the same reason that PCs have no families or friends: if you're Lawful, or Good, the GM has a better handle on how to yank your character around.

Joel Harmon

3:33 AM

that is, in a hypothetical DM vs. characters game, agency is only good for countering the DM's "moves"

BESW

See also, My Guy syndrome and making decisions as a collaborative player.

Joel Harmon

ah, I need to re-read most of his articles

BESW

All of which just goes flying out the window if GM/player dynamic stops being antagonistic and instead a group treats everyone as equal collaborators in the storytelling.

Joel Harmon

(incidentally, I dislike the term 'player', because it implies that the DM isn't a person playing a game)

maybe this is why I tend to prefer Dungeon World for actually playing

BESW

@JoelHarmon Ditto, but I don't know of a good term for person-who-controls-a-single-character-in-the-story which people would understand.

Joel Harmon

3:38 AM

without being a mouthful to say, yeah

BESW

"Participant" is a decent generic for GM-or-player.

Miniman

@BESW What about [Character Name] Master? To go with Game Master, Dungeon Master, and so on?

BESW

PCM?

@JoelHarmon You might find Lovecraftesque a hoot.

Miniman

@BESW That's probably better - if you name a character the same name as someone at the table it could make for some awkward situations using my system.

"I am the BESW Master! Ahahahahaha!"

BESW

> There are three role types which are rotated amongst the players. Roles rotate clockwise at the end of a scene, that is, you pass your current role to your left and take on the role previously held by the person to your right. The roles are: Narrator, Witness and Watcher. If there are only two players, there are no Watchers.
- The Witness plays the main character.
- The Narrator describes the environment and other characters, and ensures the scene requirements are met which usually means revealing a new Clue.

Shalvenay

3:42 AM

@BESW whereas, my rub is that I don't know how to treat someone as an equal collaborator in the storytelling when the story itself is a second class citizen in my worldview

Joel Harmon

I do like the idea of forcing all players to Narrate/DM/GM/whatever

BESW

My group usually likes having sessions with a single GM, but we've become very relaxed about passing the role around.

We don't adhere to the idea that "GM" is in some way a privileged or elevated position.

Joel Harmon

My "group" is more or less a pool of about 15 people from which games are created. There are about five DMs in there.

BESW

Sounds similar to @eimyr's setup.

Joel Harmon

the DM styles vary quite a bit, and feeling out those differences included an awkward but amiable discussion of how one player will never play in a particular DM's games

BESW

3:49 AM

Anyway, alignment: Many systems reject its reductionism in favour of more open-ended character traits.

Joel Harmon

there's a number of systems that don't even have that kind of thing

BESW

I thought Mage's Nature/Demeanour concept was interesting.

Joel Harmon

I'd prefer if it were more guidelines like that, yes

BESW

Lady Blackbird's keys are pretty awesome.

Joel Harmon

I also really like 5e's trait/ideal/bond/flaw

I'm not familiar with Lady Blackbird's keys

BESW

3:52 AM

In LB, you get XP for doing things in line with your character's main traits/goals. You can get lots of XP if you radically defy your trait/goal.

And XP can be used to buy, among other things, new traits/goals.

For example, one pre-made PC has the Key of the Guardian. She gets 1 XP each time she "hits" her key by making a decision influenced by her charge or protecting her from harm.

Joel Harmon

the only system I recall offhand that rewards alignment with XP is *world

BESW

5 XP can be used to buy an advance--another key, a character ability, etc.

If she ever buys out her key by severing ties with her charge, the PC immediately gets two advances.

Her other keys are Vengeance against the Empire (buyoff: forgive) and Warrior (buyoff: pass up a good fight).

That means you get rewarded for doing things that are in character, but you're also incentivised to have character growth and development.

Joel Harmon

I'm not sure I like that; it encourages characters to grow over time by changing their focus, but it seems too prone to abuse by simply always making it your goal to violate your stated goals

BESW

[shrug] Lady Blackbird isn't interested in setting up catchment systems for controlling people who'd rather be playing some other game.

Hitting keys is interesting and buying them off is dramatically significant, and that's enough of a control for people who like that kind of game.

Joel Harmon

I suppose abusers will tend toward games where they think their abuse accomplishes something. If LB encourages that as story, then they've abused their way into an interesting character and that's not likely the original goal.

BESW

4:03 AM

Even if the player is trying buy off Naomi's Key of Vengeance, it's going to take an opportune moment. Playing toward that is interesting and worthwhile.

Naomi can't just stop in the middle of the hall and have an epiphany; the group won't let that fly.

afk a while

Joel Harmon

can you make the assumption that the group will behave a particular way?

good bye

SevenSidedDie

4:20 AM

I thought you were talking about The Shadow of Yesterday. I keep forgetting that its Keys were joyfully borrowed into a number of other games.

(Not yet played either TSoY or Lady Blackbird, but I've used Keys in D&D, of all places.)

MC_Hambone

hey guys, quick question, do any of you guys know of any cool live action fantasy series to look into? I am thinking of something like Fallout NukaBreak, but D&D themed

Like the Gamers videos, but no out of character stuff

SevenSidedDie

No idea, sorry!

MC_Hambone

4:36 AM

all the trailers for warcraft just make me wanna watch live action fantasy things XD but i have watched all the normal things like LotR

Miniman

@MC_Hambone There is, in fact, a D&D movie. I am not recommending it, just informing you that it exists.

Apparently I'm wrong. There are 3 of them.

Adeptus

@Miniman I knew there were 2, didn't know there was a 3rd! (have only seen the 1st)

Miniman

@Adeptus The 3rd was released directly to DVD, for...some...reason.

Adeptus

@MC_Hambone Series: Legend of the Seeker, Shannara Chronicles, Xena. Movies: Eragon, Conan (x2), Red Sonja. Haven't seen 7th Son yet, but that's another.

Miniman

@Adeptus Wait, they made a Shannara series? I suppose that was inevitable.

Adeptus

4:46 AM

@Miniman Pretty sure the 2nd was too. And I've heard they're working on a new D&D movie.

@Miniman Yep. Based on Elfstones, apparently. Been so long since I read them, I can't remember much of the books. The series is explicitly post-apocalypse Earth, which I think was only hinted at in the books.

Miniman

@Adeptus It got explored in later books, which I haven't read.

The nice thing about a skeletal horse is that you can literally flog it forever.

3

Miniman

5:49 AM

Good grief. Warning: NSFW.

Magician

@Miniman er, what's NSFW about it?

Miniman

@Magician The noise I made when I read it.

Magician

Ah, fair enough.

lisardggY

6:19 AM

From now on, my alignment will always be Chaotic Rage.

No, wait. "Chaotic Rage!", with exclamation mark.

BESW

Well, if you're really chaotic, you should mix up the punctuation every time you write it.

Miniman

@lisardggY Nah, Chaotic Rage is a feat Barbarians can take in 3.5e from one of the later splatbooks. It explicitly allows you to attack teammates while raging and protects you from the consequences because "it's just good roleplaying".

BESW

"Chaotic Rage‽" for example.

Miniman

@BESW "¿Chaotic Rage?"

BESW

"Chaotic! Rage"

lisardggY

6:29 AM

!chaotic ǝƃɐɹ

BESW

...oricce gatah...

I also like Chaotic Stuff.

lisardggY

Yeah, that's some of my favorite stuff.

eimyr

8:14 AM

Hello

BESW

Yopp.

eimyr

What's new?

I've heard some mentions... [snoops]

BESW

Hmm. It's interesting to compare the results for "how can I get" [gm-techniques] with "how can I make" [gm-techniques].

Hrm. [refines searches]

Ah, here we go. [gm-technique] questions with "how can I make" in the title are mostly about improving the game experience; [gm-technique] questions with "how can I get" in the title are more frequently about manipulating players into behaving a certain way.

3

eimyr

8:34 AM

write a meta post about your findings

BESW

Heh. There's nothing actionable about it. Just interesting sociolinguistics with a side order of playstyle.

lisardggY

@BESW Still worth a meta post, for interest.

BESW

Is that a thing meta does? I'm not sure I've ever seen that.

eimyr

You can "get" people to write better questions by replacing "how can I get my players..." with "how can I make my game..."

BESW

I dunno, GMs using social engineering to guide players' actions without engaging in explicit out-of-character discussions about play goals is a long-standing playstyle that I don't want to denigrate.

lisardggY

8:45 AM

@BESW I don't know either, but I don't see why meta has to adhere to the "questions only" rule. Meta is there for site governance.

BESW

9:18 AM

I'm not sure how to make it more than "I saw this thing about use of language on the site that I didn't expect to be the way it is."

eimyr

@BESW You might check whether majority of "can I get" questions are challenged and the answers recommend a change in attitude. If they do then it would be a good guideline to make those querents ask the duck.

E.i. if you can't rephrase your question to start with "how can I make my game..." instead, you're asking the wrong question.

BESW

9:39 AM

Hmm. I'll poke that and see if something comes out of it.

BESW

11:18 AM

@lisardggY What do you have to say for yourself?

lisardggY

@BESW Ooh, I can't tell if it's a me-kit for killing vampires or a kit for killing me-vampires.

BESW

Also, I'm finding it really hard to believe enough people ever thought slayer kits were real vintage artefacts for it to be a lucrative business.

lisardggY

Also, I'm pretty sure the word "nosferatu" was invented in the 20th century. Or maybe late 19th.

BESW

Wikipedia says it's hard to trace prior to Dracula, and its earliest confirmable print appearance is 1865.

Like, making a quality vamp kit is an art. But selling it as an antique?

nitsua60

12:55 PM

@BESW "side order of playstyle" would make a good name for a... wait--what are we naming these days?

Miniman

@nitsua60 Mutant orangutans.

Which, coincidentally, would be a good name for a band.

nitsua60

Alright, then. BESW: @Miniman says "Side Order of Playstyle" would make a good name for a band of mutant orangutans.

Miniman

@nitsua60 Whoa. That got meta.

eimyr

@nitsua60 ...for a Holy Order of Knights.

@nitsua60 erm... maybe more like Order of St. Playstyle.

eimyr

2:27 PM

@Asteria Hello!

How's it going?

@Asteria Jsut wanted to say I found your recent problem-player question very interesting, having some similar experiences myself.

Momonga-sama

5:06 PM

@BESW Seriously, people are stupid if they believe that garlic could be 150 years old -_- But nooo. It is truly from mid 19th century!

nitsua60

8:49 PM

@Momonga-sama I don't know--there's some really old plants out there. Basically, I try not to be surprised at anything biological...

Unless the CS students finish the robot revolution before you finish the cephalopod one.

Momonga-sama

@nitsua60 Dude, seriously. It would turn into a rotten pile.

Even if it was sealed, the moist in the garlic would destroy it.

eimyr

9:03 PM

@nitsua60 I think @Momonga-sama objects to harvested garlic bulbs, present in the kit, showing signs of freshness.

BESW

10:03 PM

I feel like there's an excellent campaign setting in this.

Momonga-sama

@eimyr Whaaaa?

Well. The auctions states 'garlic'.

trogdor

10:38 PM

lol

doppelgreener

11:20 PM

@Momonga-sama and shows pictures of said garlic, it's got a spot laid in the back of the case too. One of the comments tears the assembly to shreds over what a mess it is.

Momonga-sama

11:30 PM

Which comment?

BESW

This one.

I would like to see a mummy-hunting kit, though.

BTW, @trogdor, you could easily justify bringing Ajani into the Amaterasu campaign if you wanted.

trogdor

@BESW yes, because I need more encouragement to bring in more characters XD

but that is honestly a great idea

BESW

Perhaps as a confused and reluctant subject of the Hip-Hop Pharaoh.

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