TRPG General Chat

Q: Are tool recommendation questions on topic?

16

Recommendations for games and published adventures are now off topic due to our policy on them being rescinded. The general agreement was that we did have functioning rules for them, but enough users were intentionally disobeying them that the effort of enforcing them was no longer balanced by t...

@nitsua60 I was more talking about the sys rec

tool rec was always weaker and muddier

though I used it to good effective for Qs and As in my time

so nobody stepped up to defend tool rec makes sense, I wasnt here so I cant complain that much about it being gone

3:33 PM

Hi @JoshuaAslanSmith I was just replying to @Aaron's line about tool-recs

I was very new when game-recs were being discussed

ah gotcha nvm

it seemed--to a noob--like people were surprised by the "evaluate game-recs" question effecting a "ban game-recs" position

and then another big backlash came when people started seeing tool-recs get closed

(many, like me, hadn't properly understood that there was a "allow rec" policy in effect, and had assumed game-recs and tool-recs would be treated distinctly)

yeah meta can be really murky at times about whether or not something is about making a policy decision from the outcome or a discussion for ways to improve or change something

yup. some noses seemed out of joint. seemed like run-of-the-mill communication faux pas

(faux pases? fauxes pas?)

missteps

fox paws

3:39 PM

that's why I was trying to be super-diligent when asking meta.rpg.stackexchange.com/q/5870/23970 and when posting meta.rpg.stackexchange.com/q/5879/23970

FOX [pause]

@JoshuaAslanSmith 5k would be an interesting bar for this--one's definitely knocked off the rough edges by this point and started to notice how stack-maint works, but still new enough to have a fresh set of eyes

@nitsua60 yeah I've seen enough random behavior from 3k rep users (or near enough to that level) that I wouldnt trust it that low

blah voting rep is still only 150 for elections thats so terribly low

You mean needing 5k to vote on meta, or am I mistaken? I'd seriously advise against that.

@Pixie I can vote on meta and don't have that much rep yet

@pixie talking about a specific new feature/functionality to actually more concretely and visibly craft site policy

note: this is just an idea in my head

@JoshuaAslanSmith like if there were some meta-meta level for policy...?

3:52 PM

and will never happen given what I know of SE/SO culture

@Aaron There's no rep requirement. I was just confused about the conversation at hand.

@JoshuaAslanSmith Ah, okay.

Im picturing it working like elections

we were talking specifically about the recent game-rec (=rec!) and tool-rec metas

and generally about how policy evolves/is set

@JoshuaAslanSmith something to set it aside and say "hey, everyone, this is a thing"

I think there are issues with it, but I think a high rep requirement to be able to contribute and decide on policy would actually make things worse.

as such I think there would just need to be a set interval, quarterly to vote on things

@pixie anyone could contribute arguments for or against it was more the voting that needed to be rep gated in my mind

3:55 PM

Again, I don't think that would be an improvement.

I should look at the previous election and see if I can see how the rep was distributed by people actually voted, Id imagine most of the voters met that bar

is it the 5k, what if it was 1k? I know I definitely dont want it to be the super low 150 that is the bar for elections

considering you get 100 for having that rep on any other SE

I'd still be reticent if it were 1k.

We already decide things based on the opinions of a very tiny percentage of the site, those who participate in meta and the mods. I've seen stuff considered a majority at 9 votes. This does not really, accurately represent the feelings of the community at large. Adding further restrictions decreases the amount of people who even can participate, regardless of whether they want to or not.

if I may ask where is the line between 150 and 1k where you would find it acceptable?

@Pixie good point

in part Im trying to get things more visual (in the way the election got visibility all over the site) for these type of decisions

the rep bar was just sort of related thought in my head is all

3:58 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith that, seems to me, is the biggest issue

if there were a "policy proposal" tag that somehow got the proposal spotlighted, there were known time-window for active consideration, &c.

@pixie your concerns are valid, I just think that 150 is too low and threw out 5k

but maybe I should look and general voter apathy is already taking care of my concerns

@JoshuaAslanSmith of course, with computerized systems it's so easy to throw out a new rule as a way to effect change...

perhaps a badge for first vote in a policy discussion, another for a first post, &c?

treat those first steps into participating in the management of the site the same way we do the first steps in pparticipating in the content

@pixie @nitsau60 so lets drop the rep bar, make it the same as election voting 150, I think that you are right it could be problematic and I may be trying to fix an issue that doesnt exist at all

even adding this system we could still have policy decisions decided by 9 upvotes, but Id feel better about the community being notified and having had their chance,

like @pixie said, the problem isn't too many people involved in the discussions...

150 would be a lot better, but I think the notification is a much more important factor than the rep. A lot of people either don't know meta exists, forget to check it, don't understand it, etc.

And stuff that happens over there takes time to filter into the community at large, because those posts and decisions are not in your face on the main site.

4:07 PM

@Pixie it doesn't help that the metas have that "unprivileged" location in your drop-down of stack communities. (meaning: I can get to any other main-site with two clicks, but it's four to get to another meta.)

I constantly underestimate the effect of these sorts of tiny UI issues

Yeah. It needs to be separated out because it would be too easy to mix up with regular questions if it weren't, but the cost of that is that it's off to the side.

I'm thinking of that drop-down, where you have to go to the community (two clicks), then to its meta (two clicks)

@SevenSidedDie I'd thrown that line in the code block because of the way it's offset in the text--within a blockquote can you think of a better way to replicate the original?

@nitsua60 This too. Having a meta link alongside the chat link would be nice.

Q: Understanding the significance of the elimination of one-click transfer between main and meta

4:37 PM

@nitsua60 I see what you mean. We don't have a way of selecting other fonts (presentation) though, only ways of indicating different types of content (semantics), unfortunately. Telling a browser/screen-reader that it's computer code isn't an accurate quotation, for example.

Maybe a blockquote… It does look like it might be a blockquote formatting in the original, and our blockquotes don't mean literally “this is a quote”, but more “this is blocked text”… yeah, a blockquote might be accurate.

10

With the recent introduction of the new top bar on SO, I thought I'd ask why all the fuss over the elimination of the meta/main links. Why are some people so upset about a little extra effort to switch between sites?

discussion meta top-bar

@SevenSidedDie This is also true.

@nitsua60 (Also @ you that last link.)

But as it stands, we have communication and visibility issues.

I don't have a good solution for that at present, but they're definitely there.

If you look at Shog's answer, the concern he mentions is relevant here:

> The bigger concern here is that folks who aren't already used to going to meta won't find it. That would be bad. We didn't create these meta sites so that a handful of old-timers could sit in a smoky back room and [snip] about the newbies; it's supposed to be the place where the community can come together and talk to itself, hash out disputes, come up with plans and strategies to improve the site. If that isn't happening, things will break.

And I think to some extent that definitely happens.

4:53 PM

@SevenSidedDie that looks fine--I hadn't thought of nesting blockquote. I had originally written it as one blockquote with linebreaks (as you edited to in the first instance) but thought it looked... choppy?

thanks for the help

6:07 PM

Im back

Q: Two years later: How has moving the Meta link affected Meta usage?

0

Two years ago the link to Meta was moved from an always-visible position in the top bar to subitems in the help and Site Switcher menus. Shog9 quite fairly noted at the time: The bigger concern here is that folks who aren't already used to going to meta won't find it. That would be bad. […] ...

discussion user-interface meta community navigation

@SevenSidedDie thank you

@nitsua60 Yeah, I agree it looked choppy. Much as I love Markdown, I sometimes find its limitations as frustrating as I find its simplicity liberating.

@JoshuaAslanSmith Hopefully they've been looking at this data already and will have easy answers! If not though, time for a reminder to look at the data. ;)

Yay, that Meta.SE question is getting a lot of voting already. That gives me hopes of it being useful and informative.

@SevenSidedDie I odnder what you think of some of the stuff I tossed out above (ignore 5k rep to vote it was a fleeting silly idea that I disown now)

@SevenSidedDie perhaps I'm missing something: is there a link in the footer to a particular site's meta? Or when metaSE posts (like you quoted) reference the footer link, is it just the footer's link to metaSE they refer to?

6:21 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith Can you link to how far back to start reading? I skimmed some but I haven't figured out where the conversation started.

@nitsua60 Huh… You're right, there does not appear to be a footer link! I didn't check that before repeating it.

@SevenSidedDie so was there previously one that always linked to the current site's meta?

@nitsua60 Found it! It's the one labelled feedback.

I think there was always one, yes.

@SevenSidedDie uh I can link to a specific message, I guess I dont know how to link to a block

@SevenSidedDie wow! never would have thought that's what "feedback" pointed at! (Also, the footer's really far down on almost any page--I think these last two days are the first time I've even looked at one.)

@SevenSidedDie time stamp of around 10:18 in chat

for today

6:28 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith Just a place to start. :) (To link to a block you have to create a new bookmark, I think.)

@JoshuaAslanSmith My timestamps are in PST though.

@SevenSidedDie chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/26031636#26031636

@JoshuaAslanSmith ty

again ignore 5k rep voting I was thinking of a hypothetical problem of really inexperienced users voting for things they didnt understand and then realized they probably just wouldnt vote (also 5k was a random arbitrary number)

@SevenSidedDie Awesome! I'd definitely love to see some data on this.

@JoshuaAslanSmith (to be fair, I think I'd previously mentioned that the stretch between 2K and 10K seemed pretty "dry")

6:33 PM

I mean pixie's concerns were valid and those originally raised on META SO for why we have the meta 1 click link that only a few high rep users would determine policy direction

Thats why I thought an analysis of the voting activity for elections broken down into rep thresholds might be nice

@JoshuaAslanSmith Yeah, visibility of policy discussions is always a concern. We do have (and use) the [featured] tag though, which makes a post very visible in the sidebar.

@SevenSidedDie thats a good point

6:53 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith I think you're right about the culture though; changing meta from a place to discuss and come to conclusions into a place to vote and have the number impose binding results would be a tectonic shift.

oooh flags

7:42 PM

@SevenSidedDie I think the general ideas @JoshuaAslanSmith and @Pixie and I were feeling around was "how to let people know there's a policy discussion hapenning, how to get them to come read, how to get them to contribute, how to get them to vote?" Featuring on the sidebar is good; can there be more?

@JoshuaAslanSmith you on?

@aaron I am

I need a proofreading as I am unsure if my question is well crafted. Mind giving it a look?

In the immortal words of Reboot's tagline "game on"

So I have become a natural Lycanthrope via some in game shenanigans and looking into the template I found the wording to be a bit ambiguous.

A lycanthrope retains all the special attacks, qualities, and abilities of the base creature. **In hybrid or animal form it gains the special attacks, qualities, and abilities of the base animal.** A lycanthrope also gains low-light vision, scent, and the following:

Emphasis mine.

I understand Special attacks and Abilities well enough but what is meant by qualities? For the sake of simplicity lets say the character is a were tiger. Would I gain a ti…

I have links and such for everything I mention

7:54 PM

dat 3.5/pathfinder wiki?

I have a link to the d20pfsrd entry on were-tigers (A type of lycanthrope which is relevant sense that is what I am effectively) and the tigers animal

despite never playing a PF game in my life I think i could answer that

if you search d20pfsrd for Quality one of the hits is the universal monster rules

therein are a list of keywords that in their description say "a creature with this quality can..."

ooh.

Im guessing Races have qualities or something mechanically like them too, what 4e or 5e would call a racial feature like Dwarves having poison resistance

Right. That is probably it then. I think the question is worth posting still. I think part of my confusion may have stemmed from a guide I found. It didn't say so but I found it while looking for pathfinder and it was 3.5 and it listed a bunch of stuff I didn't see in the abilities listed on the pfsrd.

8:02 PM

@nitsua60 I can't think of anything better. The fundamental difficulty is that you can, as they say, lead a horse to water but can't make it drink. One thing I know we will be avoiding is creating any confusion over whether what's under discussion is general feedback or a policy change…

@Aaron yeah I could see there being a lot of issues looking for resources with 3.5 and PF crossover

@SevenSidedDie @pixie @nitsua60 maybe I will write a meta discussion about meta discussions

@JoshuaAslanSmith The funny thing is I searched the web page using ctrl f and didn't find any mention of Pathfinder at all. I really don't know how I was sent to it.

I had to go to a few of the sites they linked to before I finally figured out it was 3.5 cause someone linked to a dnd site.

RECURSION!

wotc site specifically.

ah yesh

9:01 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith so meta...

@SevenSidedDie that's a little of what I was trying to achieve when I posted my "Policy proposal: blah blah blah" on meta--to make it clear. (Of course, doppelgreener's was better-posed, and the self-answer seemed to strike people oddly--I've got no complaints about how it ended up.)

9:15 PM

Yeah, if I had better ideas I'd propose 'em, but for now, there's not much we can do. Meta will always have some level of "out of sight, out of mind" because it's not the main site. If we can figure out whether the navigation change helped/hurt/was neutral, that will be something, though.

So I look forward to seeing posts from people who can data on SSD's question. xD

9:54 PM

@Pixie do you think more badges related to meta, as BESW was discussing last night, might be helpful?

Possibly. Some users are motivated by badges, but I'm not really one of them, so others' input may be more valuable.

Better question, then: what would/does motivate you to read, discuss, vote, post on meta?

@Pixie I'm very much motivated by badges, but only the first badge of each kind - once it's got a tick next to it on the Badges page my interest wanes.

I interact with meta mainly because when there are problems on the site, I want them to be smoothed out. Being aware that there is a problem is the most likely motivator. But since meta is the medium for both notification and resolution, it all comes down to remembering to look.

Excepting stuff I directly witnessed or which came up in chat, I mean.

I check meta every time I login to the site just as a matter of reflex. It only takes about 5 secs to see if there's anything new, so it's a harmless habit to develop.

10:10 PM

I try to, but I'm scatterbrained. Remembering to look at the site frequently at all is a triumph in and of itself. :P But again, there's no solution for that that I know of, beyond assessing the current navigation and continuing to make sure important meta posts are featured.

trogdor

10:21 PM

I personally lack any meta checking habits whatsoever

but then again, I mostly just hang around in a few of the chats

Nothing can make me not be scatterbrained. But I think it could stand to be more obvious, given personal experience, in that I know it exists and try to remember to check it and sometimes briefly can't find it.

@KRyan Well, I give up.

10:42 PM

I would be wasting a lot of quarters.

@Pixie Wait, a quarter is 25c?

trogdor

as in cents......

yes

I didn't know dice were so cheap though

Adeptus

Because I know some people here like game makers... BundleStars Ultimate Game Maker Bundle cough @Pixie cough

It also has a virtual tabletop app in the cheapest tier

11:18 PM

@SevenSidedDie on your metaSE post regarding links to meta, I think it'd be worth clarifying whether you're talking about links to metaSE or links to current community's meta when you say "link to meta"

Shalvenay

11:28 PM

hey @nitsua60

hey

actually just about to step away from the computer for a bit--son wants to play "Dungeon Dice" =)

11:52 PM

@nitsua60 Done, thank you!

@Miniman “A quarter-dollar” is where the name comes from. I forget what a full set of Aussie coinage is again — do you not have 25¢ pieces?

(I was there in 2001, and was awed by your awesome plastic bills. Very pleased when the Canadian Mint started doing the same.)

@SevenSidedDie Nah, 5, 10, 20, 50 c pieces is all.

@Miniman Right, that's sounds familiar. The 50¢ are big heavy coins, right?