hi all can some one help me out ? windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/…

sorry on this

How do you format date that Excel 2007 turned into #### in real numbers?

@Mahdi I saw that the other day and all I could think was "15.5GB of 15.9GB committed?!?!?!? Feck me that sounds wrong"

You have something chewing up your memory, your commit should not get that high. What does it look like after a reboot? Not a shutdown and restart, a good old Start menu -> Restart type reboot.

That's quite likely.

@Mahdi You might get a bit more information with RAMMap.

Aye, that's probably why I left it alone at the time.

Might also be a giant memory-mapped file.

(or lots of them)

or a similar bug to what ate up 31 GB of physical RAM on my system the other day

I have no swap file because I've never even come close to hitting my total physical RAM in terms of utilization before then

Also, @Mahdi, in Task Manager try going into the details tab, right click on the column header => select columns => tick "commit size" and sort by that

VMware drives it up to, what? 40%? and a game without VMware running, like 15-20%

@allquixotic You should always have a page file even if you have physical RAM to spare...

32 GB seems like plenty, but you're still using it inefficiently.

@Bob I disagree. Having page cache on the exact same drive with the exact same performance characteristics is silly. Let's see: to avoid making extra reads from disk, I'll... store stuff I read from disk, on disk! Yeah! Great idea! :D

@allquixotic Except the swapped out data might be accessed once a day, and the cached data might be accessed once a second.

If programs were having to page out to disk, then we have a problem. But if programs' mapped pages in RAM are pushing page cache out of RAM and making the system forget about those pages completely, oh bloody well -- I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is the yo dawg mentality of caching something on the same drive it came from.

It's not whether it's accessed at all; it's the frequency (and time since last access).

@Bob Well, if you have 16 GB or so of page cache in physical RAM, and a program requests a gigabyte via malloc(), what would any sane page cache implementation kick out? the data that's accessed once a day, or the data that's accessed every second?

I'd think it would be worth a bit of defragmentation of RAM (aka shuffling bits around to free up a big block, while culling some unneeded data) to kick out rarely used cached data, while keeping the stuff that's used frequently.

@allquixotic The former. Which is impossible if you don't have a secondary store.

You could shuffle around gigabytes in RAM in the same time as you could read a couple MBs from disk.

@Bob How is it impossible? What difference does it make whether the page cache is in RAM or disk? Aside from performance

having no pagefile doesn't mean you have no page cache; it just means that your page cache is in physical RAM.

the only time you'd have no page cache is if your physical RAM was completely, 100% utilized by programs mapping it into their address space(s).

and in my case it's rarely more than 25% utilized by programs.

@allquixotic It means that it's no longer possible for the system to swap out rarely-or-never-used application data in favour of frequently accessed disk cache data.

@Bob Oh. Well, when you put it that way..... But still, the latency of my spinning rust array is so high (the RAID doesn't help with latency, I'm sure) that Windows would probably tend to swap out junk a bit too aggressively, so that when I go to maximize some program later, I get to look at a black window for 30 seconds while it loads.

That whole argument is predicated on the fact that you have programs which are holding on to gigabytes of pages of virtual memory, mapped into their address space, not pinned in RAM (you can "pin" pages if you want the OS to not swap them out, to help it optimize, if you know you'll be accessing them all the time) -- and which, for those GBs of wasted pages, the data is rarely, if ever, read/written.

That's probably somewhat true of extremely long-running GC-driven programs like .NET and Java with a max heap size >= 1 GB, but the latest versions of both Java and .NET will eventually clean up their heap by releasing unneeded pages to the operating system.

@allquixotic Yea, that's the tradeoff.

With 32 GB of RAM and under 50% utilisation, you'd probably benefit more from an SSD cache.

@Bob Yeah; what I really need is another Samsung 850 Pro -- maybe a 512GB one, since that's a sweet spot between capacity/speed/throughput/affordability for me, and 1 TB is too expensive @ 700 USD -- and stick Readyboost and a huge pagefile on it.

And I'll have space left over to stick my favorite game of the month on there.

Or half of my steamapps\common directory, even ...

@allquixotic Can your RAID card use an SSD cache?

Or maybe something like FancyCache...

@Bob The next. fucking. generation. -_______- (my card is a 6-series; the 7-series can)

650 GB. Not bad.

I still love how I hacked around the problem of work giving me a system with 2 GB of RAM by plugging in an eSATA enclosure with an 850 Pro in it

probably the most clever hack around a lame management failure that I've dreamt up (and executed) so far

It's been 5 weeks.

So, about 7 TB a year.

Shouldn't need to worry about the drive dying :D

I might start storing actual data on it.

@allquixotic And most expensive? :P

I know my SSD is getting used because the light is on a lot, but I'm only up to 251 GB of total host writes

472 powered on hours

@allquixotic I need to figure out a method of logging how much is used by the cache, page file and hibernation.

Well, I'll have to guess the cache, since that's entirely IRST-managed and invisible to the OS.

the internal HDD of this laptop has 610 power cycles and 2074 hours of powered-on time

is 2074 hours anywhere close to MTBF? I really need it to fail so I can get them to replace this laptop with a new one

Hibernation is similar, but the OS can see it as a partition with an unknown ID.

The page file is OS-controlled.

@allquixotic s/replace this laptop with a new one/take away your laptop privileges/

heh, everything my SSD is doing is 100% visible to Windows, since Windows is the only thing that does anything with it -- ReadyBoost and the pagefile are both Windows features

@Bob nah -- I'm already past the point where they could take it away -- I am on projects now where I can't do work without it

if they took it away, I'd effectively stop work on parts of what they need me to do

Shitty slow-arse drive.

8 MB of cache on it too.

Oh god it's one of those AF drives...

I wonder if my partitions are misaligned.

mine's a Seagate with 160GB -- BUT, it has 16 MB of cache and 7200RPM, and it has AAM whereas yours doesn't (no clue what AAM even is)

ATA8-ACS version 4 instead of 6 though :P

so, older, but spins faster, but less capacity o_O

> Automatic acoustic management (AAM) is a method for reducing acoustic emanations in AT Attachment (ATA) mass storage devices for computer data storage, such as ATA hard disk drives and ATAPI optical disc drives. AAM is an optional feature set for ATA/ATAPI devices; when a device supports AAM, the acoustic management parameters are adjustable through a software or firmware user interface.

ahh

...reducing acoustic emanations? O_O

@Bob vibrations and such, I guess

and clicking sounds

@allquixotic Well, yes, but... why on earth is this configurable?

idk, I can still kinda hear clicking and such if I put my ear nearish to the laptop :P

> most drives use power control of the head-positioning servo to reduce vibration induced by the head positioning mechanism

> Previous seek mechanisms used maximum power and acceleration to position the head. This operation induced the familiar clicking vibration emanating from a seeking hard drive.

...I think I'll take faster seek times

then again, this drive utterly fails at that too

> AAM is no longer available for Seagate and Western Digital drives. In 2008, Seagate removed AAM capabilities from all its drives because Convolve alleged that one of its patents, US Patent No. 6,314,473 covers AAM technology. Western Digital began doing the same in 2011, without making any official announcements, nor updating their product documentation.

@allquixotic Then again, something actually needs to set it.

I wonder if Windows is even aware of it.

uhmm

@allquixotic did you hear?

Apparently Threshold is gonna be called Windows 10.

so they're skipping 9?

@allquixotic apparently

what, did they decide that 9 sounds too much like "death" in Tamil or something? (the reason Japanese don't like the number 4)

ichi ni san shi

@allquixotic Same for Chinese

they actually renamed it in modern Japanese XD

ichi ni san yon

@Bob what, no Nutella Nadella?

@allquixotic live.theverge.com/microsoft-windows-9-event-live-blog

@Bob i sort it but there is nothing that fills my commit up

@Mahdi try RAMMap

gah, there's no ++ operator in Ruby for Fixnums

o.O

hm... now I'm wondering if I should learn some ruby :P

well, if you want to redefine 1 to be an instance of a TCPSocket that pushes every message passed to it into a remote server log, be my guest

or better yet, redefine nil.nil? as false

@Bob i'l try to post an update with ram map after it full up again

you can do some pretty wacky things with monkey patching

any other idea?

(wacky can be dangerous, but also useful)

don't like some library? broken API? fix it in your own code! :D

@Mahdi I'd like to see RAMMap first, it should be able to show at least what category is using it.

@Bob hear it is its for that time i post my problem

firedrive.com/file/E0D40919644872EA

@Mahdi ?

Hi everyone,

I always forget, which is more rudimentary: a process control block or a call stack?

@Celeritas what do you mean by "rudimentary"?

the process control block and a program's call stack have nothing to do with one another; they're just different.

you can write a program that doesn't use a stack at all, and just does its work in registers and/or the heap. the frame pointer (ebp) can be repurposed as a general-purpose register.

but, if you're in userspace and you can't modify the kernel, you aren't going to be running any programs without a process control block, on Windows or any UNIX-alike (Linux, OS X, etc.)

the PCB will be "forced upon" you from on high, but no one's forcing you to use a call stack; that's an implementation detail of your program.

of course you could also write an OS that doesn't have a concept of a PCB, and programs on that OS could either have, or not have, call stacks.

so the two concepts are mostly orthogonal.

and while neither concept is strictly required for turing-complete computing, they are considered to be useful in modern OSes because of the benefits they provide.

so I have no idea what you mean by "rudimentary"

you wouldn't happen to be doing homework, would you?

@Bob this like is the rammap export file look at it

@allquixotic ^

@Mahdi doesn't really show much :\

i guss it may be chrome it filled up like 1.5 GB but how can be sure and what to do ?

you sure there's no process with a particularly high commit?

and can you see the system processes in task manager?

@allquixotic A call stack saves the state of the program (e.g. variables). So does a process control block. So which one is more fundamental?

@Bob how can i be sure show me some way to know it but i reinstall my windows 3 times and updated it but nothing

@Mahdi sort by user name, see if you can see things running as SYSTEM

just trying to confirm that you can actually see all running processes

@Bob what exactly should i do ?

...

open task manager. can I assume you know how to do that?

go to the details tab.

click on the user name column header to sort by it.

look for SYSTEM in that column.

there is plenty of them like more than half

great. add the commit size column, sort descending by that column, and check the numbers there

@Bob can you check your commit size for me ?

@Mahdi ?

@Bob tell me your commit size in process > memory to compare

@Mahdi there's no point

also, wrong tab

you want commit size, not memory

details tab, add the commit size column

i got it but i forced to restart and i think i cant find that bad committed size app

there's no point trying to compare process usage with mine. I have entirely different processes running. anyway, the high commit usage on your system is likely due to a single culprit, which I am obviously not running.

@Mahdi then check again when your commit usage is high again

@Bob so thanks if you can post an answer so if it was i can vote you

@Mahdi I'd rather not post an answer at the moment, since this is just speculation/troubleshooting

@Bob i have 3GB of committed but every thing is normal like

rammap 183

firefox 144

ekrn(nod 32) 100

and other are under 80

@Mahdi that's not problematic yet

is it possible that i cant see some processes ?

the problem is with the screenshot in your question, 15.5GB/15.9GB is bad

but i guess the sum of the list wont me 3GB

@Mahdi is your current total committed high?

also, 3GB isn't a problem

wait until you actually experience the issue

@Celeritas Did you not read anything I wrote? "Fundamental" is in the eye of the beholder. It depends on from what perspective you view the system.

trying to find the cause when you aren't experiencing the issue is a complete waste of time

are you agreed with me that the sum of the commit size should be equal to comitted ?

@Celeritas It's a philosophical question, not a cut-and-dry, black-and-white question. I explained to you how I see it; you may disagree.

@Mahdi no.

it won't, because you aren't calculating the exact sum when you eyeball it

you're approximating, at best

and then there's the whole 1024 vs 1000 bytes per kb per mb per gb

let me sum it with calc and tell you

in short - don't even bother

@Mahdi again, don't bother. it doesn't matter

wait until you're actually experiencing problems

diagnostics on a system that's running normally will not tell you anything useful

as i compared before my friends hade like 2.1 GB for about 5 hours but mine is 3GB for 30 min !!

sigh

ok i'l wait

@Mahdi stop comparing to other people!

your current commit and memory usage depends on what you have running, and will be different from other people

not your friends, not me

but that's not even the issue

the issue is when your commit usage reaches the limit, which is not occurring right now

ok i'l wait

thanks a lot

can some one help me about some wireless issue ?

i need to connect throw my nexus 5 to wifi channel 13 (my university wifi) can some one help ?

Channel 13 in the 2.4GHz band?

Eh, move to Japan? That might help. (Seriously)

Or was that channnel 14?

But seriously, not all channels are legal everywhere. I think we have channels 1 to 11 over here in NL and I can not select channel 13 while having my locale configure to NL.

Once I change my language/locale in windows then the wifi driver suddenly allows more options.

Which confused the bajesus out of me when I ran into that problem for the first time.

@allquixotic I agree but I'm not speaking in technical terms, I was trying to ask the question in an intuitive way. I found the answer here the thread ...has a stack, which contains the execution history" and a thread has a process control block (which roughly speaking "contains" it), so in that sense I would say a process control block is more fundamental than the stack that holds functions frames.

stackoverflow.com/questions/200469/what-is-the-difference-between-a-process-and-‌​a-thread?answertab=oldest#tab-top

thanks though

@Celeritas You're assuming a certain operating principle of an operating system that doesn't have to be, though. In order to speak with such concreteness, you should refer to a specific implementation of an OS, or at least a family.

On something like Linux, certainly a PCB is more "fundamental" than a call stack, since every userspace process must have a PCB, but needn't have a call stack.

@allquixotic And from the other side, a small embedded program running on an AVR micro can have a call stack, but there's no concept of processes at all.

Or even an OS.

Bahahahaha.

Guys. Get this.

that's why I was so puzzled by his question -- it seems to be assuming that we're talking about some kind of fuzzy-wuzzy definition of a modern operating system

@allquixotic Well, while we're repeating points...

They just announced Windows 10!

@nhinkle You're late to the party.

Nvm, refreshing worked.

@nhinkle Magic.

@allquixotic @Sathya was busy

modding SU was more important than announcing Win10 he needed to spend some time with his wife

lol

"What? A billion people are waiting for me to announce our next product?! Tell our Vice President to do it. I'm busy deleting this post!"

!!xkcd wrong

Is there a difference between user space/kernel space and user mode/kernel mode?

@Celeritas not really; just terminology

okay

Windows 10.

So have you guys got the word about why Windows 10 was named Windows 10 and not Windows 9?

"Because 7 ate(8) 9"... sigh

We already have windows 9 (8+1).

rofl, Outlook is playing tricks on me D:

Outlook and my Ruby backend are using almost exactly the same amount of memory

except my backend is doing an enormous amount of processing at the moment ;p

man... I can tell my program is working, but it's taking a long time to process about 25,000 objects... running hairy regexes over many tens of thousands of large strings; adding objects to a directed graph with cycle detection...

wow... memory increased steadily by about 250 KB per minute for ~25 minutes, then suddenly it broke through the performance-bottlenecky area and now it's finishing up at a good pace

nice... Ruby's GC is smart! the heap just shrunk in half (it told the OS that it could reclaim some memory)

Well, there went my evening :(

?

Wait, you have enough RAM to run outlook twice ?

Or atleast use twice its memory usage?

Wow!

@Hennes heh.

Sadly I am only partially joking. Outlook (and firefox with a few tabs) eat about 90% of my memory on my laptop

Since I worked with a web based application I often quit outlook to free up some memory.

@nhinkle clearly they do want to catch up in the version number war

hm

the new badge is confusing.