10:12 PM
I thought I saw this one already posted in here:
> And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. - Heb. 10:10
That sounds a lot like holiness was imparted to us because Jesus was sacrificed.
Can you tell me why a basic reading of this verse does not imply that Jesus' death covered some kind of punishment meant for us?
It seems to me the more strenuous reading is one that does not see it as strong support for penal substitution.
There's also Eph 5:2 and Heb. 7:27. Combined with "wages of sin is death, but the gift of god is eternal life in Christ" and I think we have a strong case for the penal substitution understanding of the necessity of Christ's death.
Without this understanding, you leave a massive void. Why did Christ die then, if it wasn't to justify me before God?
Never mind that I think penal substitution is very stupid on it's own. It should make any moral person wonder, why can't God just forgive? He has to kill someone, even if it's not the offender. Really??? That's strange behavior. And we're apparently supposed to mimic it too.
I would not accept a father offering up his son to suffer for someone else's crimes. I would reject the offer, and the father as a morally reprehensible person.
And I would reject the offer of a father offering himself for the crimes of his son. I would not judge that father as morally reprehensible, but certainly as misguided. The crimes of any person are his own.
And, the ironic thing is that penal substitution violates God's own law:
> Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin. - Deut. 24:16
So, I'm with you, Lee. I believe penal substitution is a stupid theology. An evil one, even. But I don't see the gospel making sense without it.
I used to simply explained that God had unalterable characteristics. One of them is a sense justice. I would argue that God's sense of justice must be satisfied, hence, Christ's death was necessary. And I just kind of ignored the fact that this is stupid. God is crazy if he literally is unable to forgive, yet, the Bible insist he can and does, but then actually, no he only seems to, having pushed the punishment onto Jesus instead.
It really is a very stupid theology.
> The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
lol. How gnostic. "you'd understand if you were already in our club."
And since it's leading up to it, perishing? Perishing from what? I don't feel the pressure of sin, like it's some kind of illness. I have a fever when I'm sick. I don't feel sin. It's foolishness because you need to convince me that sin is real first, which is also stupid, especially since the litany of sins in the bible seems rather arbitrary at times.
And oddly obsessive with controlling sex.