The Upper Room

12:01 AM

@curiousdannii I wonder how much was read before the son of man was thrown out. Yet when does the son of man have a place to rest his head?

curiousdannii

@fredsbend I think the penal substitution makes a lot of sense from a shame culture too, not just a guilt culture. God's honour has been attacked by sin, and though he may forgive people, his own honour must be seen to be upheld. God punishes to show he is the powerful king he says he is, but he absorbs that punishment himself showing that he is not shamed to be reconciled to his subjects.

Without penal substitution then either we never truly shame ourselves or God (which is what many people who reject PSA would think) or God's honour is not worthy of being upheld.

I think that our views of the atonement are dependent on our views of sin: whether our sin truly shames and offends God

Matt Gutting

12:34 AM

@fredsbend i think you're aware the Catholic Church is against the penal substitution concept; I'll have to look into its arguments against and see what you make of them.

Decrypted

@curiousdannii Let's put into the perspective of a wife that spends to much on the credit card. He knows that she goes to counseling every Saturday, and that the other girls talk all day long about how they appreciate their husbands, and their all very sad that the husband constantly gets upset about how much they spend.

They talk about how they plan on spending less, and come to agreement every Saturday.

Then during the week, the spending spree continues, and they feel that they can not control themselves.

Again and again the husband tells them about the spending spree.

Then one day he disguised himself as a woman, and went to the counseling session.

He came saying, "Stop your spending! And receive forgiveness!"

I am the credit card bill, I come to start arguments, and cause division.

You must hear what I say and stop your spending.

Who ever loves the items in the store more then me is not worthy of the low credit card bill.

You must think of me always!

Whoever thinks of me thinks of the husband.

Whoever denies me, denies the husband as well.

Then he makes plans to die on a cross.

Showing how we need to crucify the credit card bill.

But when the women went home, they thought to themselves, the credit card bill was crucified, lets go shopping!

Then the credit card bill came, and they felt deceived.

Thinking that liar, he said there would be peace if we believed him.

Some people said, "He was talking about a credit card bill after we die."

Yet if unable to realize the metaphorical usage in this example, here is the key:

The husband = God

The husband disguised himself as a woman = Jesus in the form of a man.

The credit card bill = life or the lack there of.

Shopping = sin

The counseling every Saturday = Church

@LeeWoofenden The works, that stopping the shopping spree.

fredsbend

12:55 AM

@curiousdannii Each will die for his own sin. That's pretty solid. Sin is non-transferable.

@MattGutting I'd be interested to read it.

@curiousdannii Do you oppose or support psa doctrine? If you support it then how do you explain the verses I listed above especially the two in Hebrews.

@MattGutting I thought that the Catholics believe that the super abundant works of Christ and the works of the Saints are transferred to us, thereby justifying us.

So the Catholics believe that works outweigh sins and that is what saves us. And further works are transferable. Exactly how seems mystery.

Honestly that seems like the same thing only you're doing someone else's community service instead of claiming an execution sentence.

Decrypted

1:14 AM

@fredsbend Would you like to understand why sex gets picked out with highly restrictive rules on it?

fredsbend

Sure.

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