@LeeWoofenden (1) How is intellectual assent a secondary aspect of faith (the primary aspect of which is faithful action), and not superfluous and irrelevant, if a person who intellectually denies the testimony of Jesus, or even intellectually denies that God exists, can still be justified.
@LeeWoofenden (2) How is it is possible for an atheist, a person who by definition does not believe in God and therefore cannot seek God, to please God, given the verse in Hebrews 11:6 which says "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him.",
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where faith is defined just previously by the very same author to mean ὑπόστασις (the confidence or being) of what is hoped for and ἔλεγχος (being persuaded to or choosing to acknowledge the veracity of) about what we do not see.
@Andrew A person who loves his neighbor as himself is assenting to the testimony of Jesus. That is one of the two Great Commandments upon which, Jesus said, depends all the Law and the Prophets--meaning the entire Scripture. So a person who believes and practices in loving the neighbor as oneself actually is assenting to the testimony of Jesus, even if the intellectual assent to Jesus as being God is lacking.
There may not be intellectual assent to Jesus as God, but there is intellectual assent to the principle that one's fellow human beings are to be valued as highly as one values oneself. And this is actually quite a common belief among good-hearted atheists.
In short, there must be intellectual assent to some principle that is articulated by Jesus as being the "testimony," or teaching, of God. But even that intellectual assent is secondary to actually living by that "testimony." If one has intellectual assent but no action based on it, then the intellectual assent accomplishes nothing. It is primarily our actions that save us, and secondarily our beliefs. Beliefs are necessary, but not primary.
@LeeWoofenden No Lee, he is not assenting to the testimony. He is denying the testimony. He is literally saying, "I do not believe that Jesus raised from the dead or has eternal life". He is failing the second requirement of faith, according to that definition in Hebrews, of acknowledging the veracity of the unseen thing. He denies the veracity of the unseen thing.
That is why James said we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24), and why Jesus said that those who do good deeds for their fellow human beings in need will go to eternal life, while those who do not will go to eternal punishment (Matthew 25:31-46)
@LeeWoofenden "for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. he one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."
Which person "believes in the Son of God": 1. The person who asserts a belief in Jesus Christ but does not live by Christ's teachings, or: 2. The person who lives by Christ's teachings but does not assert a belief in Jesus Christ?
@Andrew What does it mean to "have the Son of God"? Does it mean an intellectual assent to the proposition that Jesus is the Son of God? Or does it mean one who lives from and according to the truth that the Son of God teaches? The Son of God is the light of the world. And those who live by that light "have the Son of God" in them, whether they realize it or not.
@LeeWoofenden You have said this many times, and then I say, "but not by works alone", and you say "no there is some aspect of faith" and I say what aspect of faith, and you answer "works". This has happened at least three or four times in our talks, and twice today.
@Andrew No, I have said that a person must believe in principles taught by Jesus Christ. And live by those principles. Believing in a principle and living by that principle is faith in that principle. And by extension, it is faith in God, and faith in Christ, whether or not it is consciously recognized as such.
After death, according to Swedenborg, those who have lived a good life according to the Lord's teachings, but have not believed in Jesus here on earth, will accept Jesus as Lord in the afterlife. That's because inwardly and truly, they did believe in Jesus, even if externally and intellectually they didn't.
@LeeWoofenden One can not believe in the principles that Jesus taught without believing he was the Son of God, and that he raised from the dead! He taught this also!
If you read statements of principle written by many atheists, although there will obviously be some things you and I disagree with, you will also find many principles that were enunciated by Jesus Christ in the Gospels. And I daresay many atheists live by those principles more thoroughly than many nominal Christians do.
@LeeWoofenden His divinity, death, and resurrection are included in his teachings. If they reject those, then they do not keep his teachings. They reject his testimony concerning his identity, and they also reject his authority.
@Andrew That's simply not true. Many non-Christians believe in the golden rule, believe in loving their neighbor as themselves, believe in turning the other cheek, and many other things Jesus taught. Gandhi was in many ways more Christian in his practices than the vast bulk of Christians. Yet he never accepted that Jesus Christ is God.
@Andrew I am well aware that atheists and non-Christians do not accept everything Jesus taught. Even most Christians do not accept everything Jesus taught. How many Christians actually give away all their wealth to the poor? How many Christians actually offer their other cheek when someone slaps them? How many Christians truly love their enemies in the way Jesus taught we should?
If you want the standard to be 100% adherence to everything Jesus taught, then you have excluded every single person on earth. And then you are right back to a mechanical belief in faith alone as the sole thing that saves us, because all of our actions matter not one whit, since we can never keep Jesus' commandments 100%
I do not believe that God is so unreasonable as to require 100% adherence to every saying of Jesus in order to be allowed into heaven. If that were the standard, than we would all be doomed to eternal hell.
Jesus himself said that loving God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength and loving our neighbor as ourselves is the key to all the Scriptures.
Doesn't that at least imply that some commandments are more important to observe than others?
And in Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus says that as much as we have done anything for the least of his brothers and sisters, we have done it for him. So he there identifies loving the neighbor with loving God. Those who love their neighbor, and do good things for their neighbor out of that love, are loving God by their actions.
Now, if someone abides by those core teachings of Jesus, then that person has Christ in him, and is living from Christ, and that person is also loving God. And such a person will be saved, not condemned.
@LeeWoofenden Of course. And those core teachings include believing his testimony.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
@Andrew And I believe that "belief" primarily means living by his testimony, and only secondarily means intellectually believing his testimony. The important thing is that we live according to what he teaches. The specific intellectual tenets about God, Christ, and so on that we attach, or don't attach, to our dedication to living by his teachings are secondary.
The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
Mind you, I'm a Christian, and I would much prefer that people intellectually believe that Jesus is God as well. But to say that all who don't believe Jesus is God will go to hell is just plain wrong. Paul explicitly explains how non-Christians can be saved in Romans 2. And Jesus explicitly explains how people of all the nations will be saved in Matthew 25:31-46.
@Andrew I think we're going to keep arguing past each other because you seem to be insisting upon a literal interpretation of "believing in the Son" whereas I thing that "believing in the Son" is a much broader and more spiritual thing in essence.
Your literal interpretation makes the Bible contradict itself when the Bible tells us how non-Christians are saved. Mine makes the Bible consistent with itself.
@LeeWoofenden (1) How is intellectual assent a secondary aspect of faith (the primary aspect of which is faithful action), and not superfluous and irrelevant, if a person who intellectually denies the testimony of Jesus, or even intellectually denies that God exists, can still be justified.
@LeeWoofenden I will acknowledge that your teachings and definitions were skillfully crafted in a manner which allows one to consistently interpret the scriptures incorrectly.
> For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; while for those who are self-seeking and who obey not the truth but wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. (Romans 2:6-8)
> There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:9-11)
Are you really going to try to claim that Romans 2:9-11 does not say that Jews and Greeks who do good will receive the "glory and honor" of eternal life that was mentioned immediately before in Romans 2:6-8?
So if you're going to try to claim that only those who intellectually believe in Jesus Christ can be saved, you are flatly contradicting what Paul teaches in Romans 2.
My belief harmonizes the different teachings of the Bible with one another. Your belief requires us to reject some teachings of the Bible in order to accept others. I think mine is better!
@LeeWoofenden So they are not judged by their works?
@LeeWoofenden If you are going to say that those who do not intellectually believe in Jesus Christ can be saved, you have far more than one chapter to contend with.
@LeeWoofenden Please continue, "For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;"
@LeeWoofenden the problem I see with this, is that no action ever precedes intent. Before you murder someone, you've already intended to murder them in your heart. Belief and faith cannot primarily mean action because the action cannot proceed an intellectual and or emotional intent
@Andrew Paul is not contradicting himself. You seem to think that everyone judged by the law will be condemned. But he has just said that those who do good will be given eternal life. So obviously he does not mean that all who are judged by the law will be condemned to hell.
@LeeWoofenden Yes, Paul is right! "glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good." But all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory. and "There is no one who does good"
@Joshua The intent behind the action is key. It is the intent that determines whether the action is good or evil spiritually, even if we may sometimes have to judge and punish the action criminally or civilly here on earth regardless of the intention behind it.
@Andrew I'm sorry, but that's just plain silly. If you're going to try to argue that everyone who doesn't believe in Jesus will inevitably be condemned because it's not possible for anyone to be righteous, then you might as well just strike out the whole first part of Romans 2. And you might as well get rid of Matthew 25, not to mention most of the rest of the Bible.
The entire teaching of the Bible is premised on the idea that it is possible for us to repent from our sins and do good instead. No, we can't do it without God. But we can't do anything without God.
Why did John the Baptist, Jesus, and Jesus' disciples all preach "repentance for the forgiveness of sins." So that in the end God can say, "Sorry! Fooled you! None of that matters! If you don't believe in Jesus you're going to hell anyway!"
@LeeWoofenden No, Lee, what I'm saying is consistent with Jesus' own words: He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
You're basically saying that intellectual belief in a doctrine about Jesus is the be-all and end-all of salvation. And so, in effect, you're preaching something very close to faith alone, even if you say works matter. In fact, works are so secondary to faith that all the good works in the world won't save a person without a specific intellectual "faith" in a specific intellectual doctrine about Jesus Christ.
@Andrew But you exclude all who don't have a specific intellectual belief.
The Bible makes it clear that such an exclusion is invalid. I've quoted two such passages because they are some of the clearest. But there are many more.
@LeeWoofenden After all this time you still haven't heard? All the intellectual assent in the world will not save a person without the living out the principles of his teaching.
:29877233 The Scriptures also say how Jews and Greeks are saved. So your interpretation simply can't be correct.
> The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. Its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. People will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (Revelation 21:24-27)
Do you interpret this to mean only the Christian nations and the Christian kings?
@LeeWoofenden he is saying that both the assent and action are parts but he is putting assent first, primary, where you are putting action first. However his problem with this is that you are saying assent is the second parr but then say those who don't assent to Jesus may still be saved. (@Andrew hope I got that right)
@Joshua You can't just ignore the fact that in Romans 2 Paul says how Jews and Greeks (both non-Christians, both not believing intellectually in Jesus Christ) are saved.
@Joshua And you can't just ignore the fact that in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus tells how the people of all the nations will be saved or condemned, based entirely on their actions.
@Andrew Yes both parts are needed,right, but your first part is assent and then action follows. Lee says action is primary and you think the assent part should come next but he is not using primary/secondary as first and second part of the of whole.
It is true that Christians must believe in Jesus Christ. But the Bible also explains how non-Christians are saved. And we can't just ignore those passages in the Bible because they're inconvenient for our human-derived doctrine.
@Andrew Of course, I don't believe in a literal destruction of the earth, as I've already said. But even if you do believe in a literal destruction of the earth, the people who stand before God's judgment seat will still be the people who came from the various political nations of earth.
@LeeWoofenden (Re: "but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life." ) "He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." and "Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
@LeeWoofenden I don't believe that anyone who denied the lordship of Messiah will be around. Nations refers to those remnants among each nation who are loyal to Messiah- all the nations will be represented. Here nations also means ethnocultural nations, not soceopolitical nations. All those who were not loyal were slaughtered and their flesh was consumed by the beasts of the earth at the great wedding supper of the lamb.
@LeeWoofenden Just a note here... I'm not sure I can think of a single place where the Greek ethnos(nation in Matt 25) is not better translated peoples. ESV actually does well here. And that includes where for some reason they make it Gentiles, it should be nations/peoples with who that is being contextual in all cases. ALL
@Andrew Or do you think that when Paul refers to "the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all" (Romans 2:16), he is referring to some day other than Judgment Day? Because it's clear that on that day, Jews and Greeks (non-Christians), will also stand before God's judgment seat, some to be sent to eternal punishment, and others to eternal life.
@LeeWoofenden All will be judged according to their works. Would you recommend that a criminal who is genuinely guilty of his accusations stand before a just judge without an arbitrator?
@Andrew Guilty people are guilty, and will be judged guilty. Those who have repented and are no longer committing crimes, and are therefore no longer guilty, will be judged innocent. Ezekiel 18 explains the whole thing.
@Andrew Physically, no. Spiritually, yes.
And there are certainly nations and cultures that are primarily Christian in belief.
There are ethnic groups that are primarily Christian in belief.
So yes, there are Christian ethnocultural groups. And there are non-Christian ethnocultural groups.
Jesus simply says "all the nations." Or "all the ethnocultural groups," if you prefer.
@Andrew I don't think the Bible requires perfection of us. That idea is, I believe, overblown in Protestant theology. Where the word "perfect" occurs in the NT, I think its meaning is more toward the sense of "completeness." I.e., we're not supposed to stop halfway in our devotion to Christ and in walking the spiritual path he laid out for us, but continue on to full devotion and to completing our walk with Christ.
32Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate *people*(its just an autous/them in Greek) one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
@Joshua "Peoples" has a fairly specific idiomatic meaning, akin to "nations." "People" is simply a common way of referring to people individually or collectively.
@LeeWoofenden Because a few things had been said that left that vague at that point. Was just making a note to clarify. And it's important because we should recognize that who ethnos is referring to is always contextual. Cannot definitely claim who it is referring to going into the verse, must take it's meaning out.
So nations here could mean anything from everyone, to everyone who is not already with God, the only meaning it can't have is all believers or all-non believers, but any subset between could fit
@Joshua I think attaching "all" to it, without any other qualifications, makes it pretty clear that Jesus was talking about all the people of earth, no matter where they live or where they come from. There is no particular reason based on the text itself to introduce various codicils and restrictions on whom "all the nations" refers to.
@Andrew It is judged on a sliding scale, as explained, once again, in Romans 2:1-16. In particular, conscience plays a key role:
> They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all. (Romans 2:15-16, italics added)
Clearly our beliefs about what is right and wrong, which constitutes our conscience, and whether we live by those beliefs, will be a key factor when it comes our time to be judged. And people's consciences differ depending on the beliefs and values they were taught, and the examples of good and evil life they were shown by those who raised and taught them.
So a key standard by which we will be judged is whether we lived according to our own conscience.
@LeeWoofenden Indeed. Thank you for another fruitful discussion. One last question- a personal one. Do you have any kids? I saw that Joshua spoke of his little boy earlier. I also have a baby boy.
@Joshua Well . . . . Romans 8:1-16 is making a different point, about Christians living according to the spirit rather than according to the flesh. It is spoken, not of Jews and Gentiles, but of "those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1).
However, it does look to me like a key passage urging us not to be literal- and fleshly-minded, but to look for the spirit behind the letter.
@LeeWoofenden I see Romans as a larger discourse, a progression of thought. I don't really see how you can read chapter 2 without then reading what chapter 3 has to say about it. Just seems like you are putting it in a bubble. YOu are making later chapters to be something else rather than the logical progression from the problem: No one is righteous, no one has a clean conscience or can even maintain their own standard (if perhaps that was possible).
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