The Upper Room - 2014-08-20

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Does Elisha speak?

12:11 AM

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Q: how could I be labeled a anti-semite when I am Jewish (semitic) myself?

I answered the question about what the "abomination of desolation" was and David Stratton labled me as being ant-semetic and locked the comments to my answer, I love David Stratton and his insight but I am surprised at his harsh judgement of me. I am Jewish and love the Jewish people I just dont ...

16 hours later…

4:09 PM

0

Q: Was Jesus omniscient regarding earthly matters?

There are several questions regarding the omniscience of Jesus, but they mostly concern the Final Judgement, etc., not earthly concerns or human knowledge. This question boils down basically to two ideas (please indicate if they are separate enough to warrant a split in two different questions) ...

I really hate these "overview" questions

@Flimzy What are overview questions in your opinion?

"What do major denominations say about X?"

@Flimzy I posted a question with that pattern.

@PaulVargas Many people have.

I understand the reason for the questions... but it seems like it's just a cheap way to get around "No truth questions"

@Flimzy This is the question. :P

4:22 PM

that doesn't really follow the same pattern, though

that's a pastoral advice question

@Flimzy OK. Thanks!

Does Elisha speak?

0

Q: Legitimate grievance, or am I just being a whinger?

Background: I've been sitting on this issue for a while and finally brought it here to meta. Since it happened I've been considerably less motivated to participate in the site (but perhaps getting through that stage now), so I'm hoping at least airing it out can help divest some of the remaining...

discussion moderation etiquette

10

Q: What is the "abomination of desolation"?

"'Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)'" (Matthew 24:15, NASB) I don't understand. I'm just curious if anyone actually understands this? Is this the Antichrist, or Jesus,...

prophecy eschatology daniel

This question is so interesting

I think it's interesting, but it belongs on BH instead of here.

On BH it will get an answer about the textual meaning

here it just gets a bunch of (mostly really bad) opinions

@Flimzy TBH, I don't think BH or C.SE can house it.

4:35 PM

It's quite possible.

@Flimzy please don't change my word like that - Meta doesn't even have roll back :S

@Flimzy There are alot of presuppositions, asking for prophetic meaning rather than metaphorical/literal interpretation of the text. I do not know if it's because I'm new or not but I have not seen a prophetic verse interpretation (referring to end times) question on BH.

@bruisedreed It does have a rollback... I thought it was a typo

I've never heard of a "whinger"

BH is not suitable. I don't even think a verse regarding the end times has an answer from scripture or hermeneutical approach. The answer may only be found in eschatology, which I would suggest an eschatology.se :D

It's an Australianism not a typo

and has a different nuance

4:39 PM

Fair enough. I have no idea what it means then. Therefore I have no idea if you're being one. :)

Because there is something quite scientific about eschatology

I think eschatology (at least the way it's typically practiced) is anything but scientific :)

well it's very similar, but with a way more jokey connotation - it's a less offensive term

@Flimzy I think my church would disagree with you. Or maybe the Reverend that studies the end times dont see it as eschatology just.... a study of the end times? It's like studying world events, the Church and stuff and how they relate to scripture

err, I should have said british/australianism: thefreedictionary.com/whinger

4:42 PM

@Zoe: I know that anyone who "studies" eschatology would disagree with me.

@Zoe: But when you consider that the study of Biblical prophecies which are yet to come is always a losing game... why even bother trying?

@Flimzy The only place I've heard it is in the phrase "whining and whinging".

@Zoe: The Jews utterly failed in predicting the coming of Christ, despite the countless prophecies on the topic (to the point that now, 2000 years later, they're still waiting)

8

Q: What is the "first resurrection"?

Finishing up the year in the Bible, I heard this passage: Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the...

1-corinthians revelation resurrection contradiction

it's somewhat different to: thefreedictionary.com/whiner

@Zoe: What makes a modern person think they can do better?

4:43 PM

@Flimzy Because scripture tells us to be watchers all the time for we know not when the end is coming. We have to look for signs and intercede with prayer because scripture also says that when we see the abomination of desolation, we should start fleeing

@Flimzy Well, I dont think we try to find out the coming of Christ but more like, the tribulation or events right before the second coming. No one knows when Christ is coming but we are warned in the scripture to be ever watchful.

@Zoe Most Christians don't even believe in a "tribulation", as it is usually talked about

Being watchful is different than trying to predict

@Flimzy I'm not sure where I mentioned I or my church was trying to predict

Well, anyone who talks about "tribulation" is usually trying to predict

as "tribulation" is a prediction of how the end times will play out

or rather, it is one small part of how end times are predicted to play out

@Flimzy Well, the only thing I say to that is, if we believe in the God of Abraham, we would do well to believe in the things in which He has ordained and decreed to be right. Like the Word.

@Zoe That statement is so broad that it's practically impossible to refute... but it also doesn't mean very much :)

@Zoe: It's a lot like saying "Anyone who values honesty would do well to believe the truth!"

Nobody will disagree with that statement... but that statement also doesn't convey anything meaningful about what "truth" actually is.

4:49 PM

@Flimzy Scriptures already prophesied the signs so we don't predict. There are signs that we can watch for like the rise of the antichrist or some kind of catastrophe in Israel or Jerusalem. And be alert on news or whatever

@Flimzy No it's not. How can one say he believes in God and then start by saying which parts of the Bible he doesn't believe in?

@Zoe You're not hearing what I'm saying.

@Zoe: It's not a question of whether one "believes the bible" it's a question of how one interprets the bible.

I believe the bible... but undoubtedly you and I disagree on how it ought to be interpreted.

@Zoe: As an example, I would say that we should not be on the lookout for "the antichrist".

@Zoe: But rather, all Christians, always, ought to be on the lookout for "antichrists"

@Zoe: and that the catastrophe in Jerusalem already happened... 1944 years ago

@Zoe: Therefore "watching" for those things to happen is quite missing the point... and is indeed a prediction... a prediction that they will yet happen

@Flimzy Sigh. I'm not saying that we are expecting it to happen as though it has not happened. It's just possibilities. Besides, there's no harm done with being up to date on current affairs. Do you know Ezekiel 36?

Being up on current affairs isn't a bad thing.

But I think the study of eschatology probably, at least in most contexts, is a bad thing.

@Flimzy Of course, there are always antichrists. But there will be a leader of them.

@Zoe Says you :)

4:54 PM

@Flimzy What?

@Zoe: Most Christians probably believe that "the Antichrist" was emperor Nero in the first century.

@Flimzy So are we talking about most christians or talking about us here and our opinions? I'm confused now. I cant speak for nor against most chrisitians, whatever that definition may entail.

@Zoe I thought we were speaking abstractly about whether we adhere to the Word. You seemed to be implying that if one believes in the God of Abraham, the would therefore study the Word, including eschatology. I'm making a counter-point.

So, if you provide their point of view, I don't see how it relates to our conversation? I thought we were trying to compare our opinions? Do u also believe that the Antichrist was Nero?

@Flimzy Er no I mean if we believe in God, we would believe things that He said or at least allowed in the Bible. If one wants to study eschatalogy, go ahead. But we should all be watchful of the end times, whether we choose to study eschatology or not.

I believe that the book of Revelation was about events which have already passed. I believe that it was written in metaphor to avoid political persecution, because criticizing the emperor (who was Nero at the time) and the government was a capital crime.

4:59 PM

11 mins ago, by Zoe

@Flimzy Well, the only thing I say to that is, if we believe in the God of Abraham, we would do well to believe in the things in which He has ordained and decreed to be right. Like the Word.

Well, to me, the study of eschatology is inherently a study of predicting the future. And probably ought to be avoided.

@Flimzy I only believe that chapter 12 is about the past.

I think even "We ought to be watchful of the end times" leans that direction....

That suggests that the end times are yet to come... which is a prediction

I believe we are already in the "end times"... and probably have been for a long time.

I suspect when Jesus talked about "end times" and other similar phrases, he simply meant the era after his ascension. Possibly more specifically between his ascension and his return.

@Flimzy We are, but than I don't hear any trumpets. If we are nearing the second coming, I would like to hear trumpets.

Because I have never heard trumpets from heaven

hehe

But that's exactly the point I'm making.

You won't hear trumpets.

Because when they come, you won't know what they are... because you'll be looking for something else.

That's why trying to predict is harmful.

5:02 PM

@Flimzy Than what do the trumpets represent?

I don't know.

You keep assuming I'm trying to predict

It's impossible TO know

Until after it happens.

There's nothing to predict when everything is already prophesied.

That's the nature of Biblical prophecy.

Prophesied and predicted are very different things

5:03 PM

I doubt I can add or subtract from the Bible

the Messiah was prophesied.... many jews predicted a military leader

(they're still waiting)

Well, I'm not a Jew

No, but by trying to predict what "trumpets" means, you're making the same mistake

I have read the gospel and believe that the prophesied Messiah is Jesus. I dont need to predict that.

@Flimzy Sigh. When did I try to predict what trumpet means?!

You have some idea in your mind of what the second coming will be like... and it will include trumpets.

5:04 PM

You are twisting my words. I'm just taking it as a literal trumpet

I don't believe I am twisting your words. You said that yourself.

> @Flimzy We are, but than I don't hear any trumpets. If we are nearing the second coming, I would like to hear trumpets.
Because I have never heard trumpets from heaven

Could you tell me which reply was me predicting what the trumpets were?

I asked you what do the trumpets represent because you said it wont be trumpets, its just a reflex question to ask u what u think and u jump str8 to me predicting what the trumpets were

You just told me... "I'm just taking it as a literal trumpet"

Because that's what Rev says. It says there will be trumpet so I'm taking it as it is and not trying to make the trumpet represent anything

You're still not hearing me at all. The very question "What does trumpets represent?" is a prediction question.

5:07 PM

@Flimzy That's because you said I wont hear trumpets, so I wanted to know, if the trumpets aren't trumpets, what do you think they are?

That's because you're trying to predict. (Or you're trying to ask me to predict)

I'm asking why you think that way, it's not me wanting to know what trumpets represent because I just took trumpets as trumpets.

I don't know what it represents, and I don't care. Because I'm not trying to predict.

I thought I explained why I think that way.

@Flimzy If you didn't express ur opinion of trumpets not being trumpet, I wouldn't have asked it because I wouldnt have been curious about why you think that way

I think that way because Biblical prophecy is written such that it's literally impossible to predict ahead of time. It's written so that, once the event occurs, we will be able to recognize it without question, but such that before it occurs, it is impossible to predict.

5:09 PM

@Flimzy Yea you did, and I thank you for that. That was the only thing I wanted to know because I was curious about your position on this. Like I said, nothing needs to be predicted. To me, trumpet is trumpet, that's it.

I also think that way because I think a lot of what people claim is about future events in the Bible is really about past events.

It would be harsh, for someone who is questioning ur position on a certain topic, to be labelled as trying to predict. This would inherently lead every question of mine to be trying to predict. Seems like it is my fault for being curious. Well, I'm sorry you think that way.

@Zoe: it's not that I think you, personally, are trying to predict... but the position you're describing is one of prediction.

I feel like buying study Bibles in September

biblegateway.christianbook.com/…

That sounds fun

5:18 PM

God knows I have a massive dislike for using the internet extensively to research on the Bible. There's just something about typing that doesn't assimilate the information into my mind.

5:44 PM

@bruisedreed It's frustrating when you have a complaint and none of the moderators will listen to you. I've been there, both on this site and BH. The reality, however, is that it isn't their job to pay attention to us. They are all volunteers.

The best approach, when you have a legitimate complaint, is to take it either to meta or to whoever is in chat at the time. The regular members of the site, in many cases, have just as much a stake in its success as the moderators. And often, if there is a strong consensus among the members, the moderators will go along with it.

Incidentally, I've offered my own answer to the Eastern Orthodox "no touching" question.

1

A: Orthodox teaching about touching Jesus' body

Jesus didn't want Mary (and others) touching him as they had before the crucifixion, because he would no longer be with them as he had been. John Chrysostom explains this in his Homilies on the Gospel of St. John. [emphasis mine] Some assert, that she asked for spiritual grace, because she ha...

@BruceAlderman Yeah, I realise that. And I can understand being thick-skinned towards most complaints being a totally reasonable response - Meta is definitely the place for most things, particularly if they are about judgment issues. This was a little different - I was upset because of what I regarded as an offensive disregard to what I had written and what I had requested - primarily a relational management issue and imo not a good fit for Meta

I saw that already - I was your first up-voter

Anyone recommend a study Bible and Chronological Bible to me? Thomas' Nelson's Chronological Bible seems to have harsh reviews. I am considering the Jeremiah Study Bible.

@Zoe: Which study bible is best depends a lot on your own theology. Or better: On which theology you want to learn about!

@Flimzy I would discern, no matter what kind of theology, I just don't wanna waste my money getting a Bible that has reviews like "Beware of evolution timelines that have infiltrated this Bible." or "Evolution is accepted / favorable mentioned in the introduction"

@Zoe I generally stay away from study Bibles, as most of them are written to promote the editors' favored interpretation.

5:57 PM

@Zoe See, I might prefer a study Bible that accepts/favors evolution :)

@Zoe: Although that would be far from the most important issue for me, on a study Bible.

@Flimzy An evolution that precedes Creation?

@Zoe I'm not sure what you mean by that.

@BruceAlderman I like a Bible with translation footnotes.

@Flimzy You should just see the reviews for the Thomas' Nelson Chronological Bible. "While it is interesting to know what pagan religions were doing, they draw a parallel that makes it sound like the pagan religions had equal footing with those who worship the one true God"

@Zoe If you really want to choose a study Bible, you might be able to find a few at your local library, take a look through some of them, and then pick one to buy.

@Flimzy Can you give an example?

@Zoe: This is the one I use: amzn.to/1oZYAOS

5:59 PM

@BruceAlderman There is a rather large Christian store. I might go there, but I might spend like a few hours trying pick one good one

It's technically a study Bible, but the study notes are pretty light weight... mostly notes on translation

and when it does talk about theology, it seems to be pretty objective, not making opinion statements

Anyone has any opinions of David Jeremiah?

@Zoe: I don't like television evangelists... :)

I think I've heard David Jeremiah speak on the radio

@Flimzy About the book tbh

but it's been long enough I can't remember what he spoke about.

6:01 PM

@Flimzy That's interesting. I've got issues with the NIV translation, but I might take a look at that one for the notes.

Oh I didnt know he is a televangelist

@BruceAlderman Dont really like the NIV as well :P

@BruceAlderman I like NIV because it's easy to read casually... but when doing a serious study I always consult multiple translations.

@Zoe I haven't heard of David Jeremiah. It's interesting that he's named after two Bible characters.

@Zoe: You can listen to his radio show online here: davidjeremiah.org/site/radio.aspx

(assuming it's allowed through the great firewall)

@Zoe: that might help you decide if you like him before you buy his book/bible

It seems to be "pre-trib and dispensational in theology." Would that be me?

6:08 PM

@Zoe: I don't know enough from what you've told me to know if you're pre-trib or post-trib... or some other of the many variations.

@Flimzy There must be many variations

There are.

And they all seem completely ridiculous to me :)

@Flimzy hee hee hee .... :-D

I'm a pan-millennialist. I believe it will all pan out in the end.

I see what you did dere

6:11 PM

hehe

@Flimzy *pans @Flimzy's comment

I had an action Bible, I lent it to my friend. It was well illustrated.

@MattGutting ??

I'm gonna need to appropriately portion my salary for September if I'm going shopping.

@Zoe With regard to the end times, I think we should not place ourselves is a dogmatic position.

6:20 PM

@PaulVargas I am just a everything's possible person. < Is there a theology like that?

@Zoe My point is that one should be humble enough to accept that my interpretation may be incorrect. We cannot assume in this regard an unmovable position.

@PaulVargas I would say that should be our attitude in all matters of knowledge

@PaulVargas It's less about whose interpretation is correct or wrong and more about accusing me of predicting the future.

@Flimzy never mind, I don't know what I was saying there :-/

It's just been one of those weird days

haha

6:37 PM

@Zoe Did it have Action figures?

@MattGutting No, unfortunately not. It's a large & thick comic book, which happens to be titled Action Bible

user image

@Zoe Very Cool :-)

I think I can trust a study book by Lee Strobel, having read one by him. I hope I can find the things I'm looking through online at the large Christian store in SG.

If not I would just have to buy them online, hit or miss.

@Zoe I wouldn't have a problem recommending a book by Strobel.

@Zoe I installed Logos on my Android tablet (which weighs less than my bible printed). I have access to my favorite translation, and also to the Greek and Hebrew text. I prefer exegetical commentaries (like those in biblehub.com)

6:45 PM

@Flimzy I am just wondering if the study guides from Bible Gateway comes with the book or not? Or must I buy them seperately?

@Zoe I have no idea.

@PaulVargas I would like to point you to my extreme disinterest in using the internet to study points It seems there is a problem assimilating information into my mind when the action of studying is merely typing :P

Although I wouldn't have a problem with a book by Lee Strobel, I'm not sure I'd want a study Bible by him.

@Flimzy It's not a Study Bible though, it's a study guide to his books.

Ahh, interesting

6:47 PM

biblegateway.christianbook.com/…

I like the blue colour

It has DVD

Seems like it dosn't come with the book

@Zoe Everyone can find the fitting product.

@Zoe What helps best? Reading, writing, listening?

7:14 PM

@MattGutting Reading and writing~ It's probably somekind of OCD in terms studying with real stuff

Listening would be fine. But I usually forgets what goes on in a movie. I will even forget parts of sermons. But I do think as for listening, a sermon or teaching would be fair in assimilating the info into my mind

But if the audio/video starts getting too extra Biblical, I get distracted.

2 hours later…

9:36 PM

0

Q: Witnessing toJehovah witnesses

How do I witness to my Jehovah witness wife. No matter what bible verse I point out to her, she reverts back to her teaching.

For some reason, I find the case humorous.

Two people from two different proselytizing religions are trying to proselytize each other in a marital relationship.

Neither person wants to give up his or her own beliefs.

In a marital relationship, communication and compromise, I believe, should trump personal quest for truth.

So that instead of seeking truth for yourself, you seek truth that would fit you and your significant other.

Thereby treating you and your significant other as one.

9:50 PM

@Anonymous Perhaps now you see why I'm not willing to marry someone of another religion :)

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