TRPG General Chat

Pixie

12:11 AM

Ursula Vernon turning a bait pony unto a succulent pot.

trogdor

uh, BESW linked that before I think

Pixie

Oh! I missed it. xD

trogdor

that is ok

it is still awesome

BESW

1:42 AM

@Pixie Definitely worth repeating.

@doppelgreener Did you link to some dwarfen mythology recently?

trogdor

he did

only a little bit

in fate chat, just a little scroll up

in Fate chat and game room, 20 hours ago, by doppelgreener

Karzełek

The Karzełek (diminutive of karzeł – a small one, used for describing non-fantasy dwarfs) or Skarbnik (the Treasurer) in Polish mythology live in mines and underground workings and are the guardians of gems, crystals, and precious metals. It is said, that they will protect miners from danger, and lead them back when they are lost. They will also lead them to veins of ore. To people who are evil or insult them they are deadly; pushing them into dark chasms or send tunnels crashing down upon them. Hurling rocks, whistling or covering one’s head are actions that are offensive to the Skarbnik; who...

it isn't honestly much

mostly just the typical things they do and the things they react to

BESW

Hah, yes.

doppelgreener

2:09 AM

Yeah, it isn't much - but it is a nice thing to know that they appear in Slavic mythology.

Pixie

2:22 AM

@BESW Ponies, succulents, and Ursula Vernon are a good combination.

2

trogdor

that doesn't sound like a very good recipe

I would not eat that

XD

doppelgreener

One is meant to consume it with the eyes

BESW

...squishy.

Pixie

@doppelgreener I keep thinking that this sounds like a concept from a flowery romance novel.

doppelgreener

2:38 AM

@Pixie Could you elaborate? :D

Pixie

@doppelgreener A metaphor for an ogle. xD

doppelgreener

Oh xD

Alyksandrei

question.

doppelgreener

@Alyksandrei answers?

Alyksandrei

So I saw this question, and it has some good advice and several resources. But I'm not the GM; I'm a player, and I'd like to ask for some advice on how to play such a character (besides doing the research). But I don't know how to formulate such a question, or whether it's even different enough to be worth asking.

BESW

2:54 AM

Hmm.

Start your question by linking to that one, explain your situation, and tell what makes you feel like that question isn't sufficient for answering your challenge.

doppelgreener

I agree.

(Where 'explain your situation' includes saying what you want to do and what obstacles you face in getting there)

Alyksandrei

@BESW I thought of that. Kinda stuck on the title, tho. Been trying to think of exactly why I don't think those answers are good enough for me so I can ask a decent question...if I could get a title formed.

doppelgreener

Those answers are written from the perspective of a person in control of an entire group of people. As a player you're one person.

You may want to achieve certain results with your team or you may want to do it individually, there's extra stuff in getting others involved.

Alyksandrei

@doppelgreener I think you just nailed it. That really helps. Thanks.

Alyksandrei

3:18 AM

OK, what do you think of this question? (It also needs a title and tags...)

So I saw [this question][1], and it has some good advice and several resources. But I'm not the GM; I'm a player, and as such only control a single character rather than a team. I'm looking for advice on how to show my character's expertise when I have absolutely no clue what I'm talking about.

I do plan on exploring the resources mentioned in the other answers, but I still won't be the expert my character is supposed to be. I need advice on how to pretend to be an expert in an area where I'm definitely not.

doppelgreener

incomplete: we need your situation, what's going on for you in your game(s)?

the problem you state - "I'm looking for advice on how to show my character's expertise when I have absolutely no clue what I'm talking about" - is a much bigger topic than tactics. We've covered playing a much more intelligent character, or a much more manipulative one, etc.

Alyksandrei

@doppelgreener We're playing Aberrant, and I mostly just feel unprepared for ... stuff. Like I can't really get totally into character, because she has training I don't. I've looked at those questions, and they help with this problem too (my character is super-smart and such), but...it doesn't feel like enough. I'm not sure why, really.

doppelgreener

So you're experiencing a general issue with feeling out of your depths in playing your own character - you know their concept and love the idea of playing them, but when it comes to play time you can't enact them satisfyingly.

Alyksandrei

Exactly

doppelgreener

Alright. Then, tell us about this character and what you're having trouble doing with them. Be specific and concrete - what's she supposed to be able to do that you can't do with her? What's she trained in, what are the skills you can't bring forward fully?

Alyksandrei

3:38 AM

Base Concept: Special Forces sniper, with a passion for learning. Premise: During a mission gone horribly wrong, she discovered the ability to turn invisible and create illusions. She also got a lot smarter. Difficulties: I'm not that smart, and often my group doesn't remember that they can and should help me think of stuff. I have no concept of what kind of training a special forces sniper might have, relating to "special forces", "sniper", or even just general "military stuff".

Also, while my character is more "average" in terms of social interactions, I'm ... socially challenged. I also don't go out much, but that really doesn't make sense for my character...and since this is a roleplay-heavy game, I'm having a real hard time with this. It just doesn't make sense to me.

doppelgreener

3:52 AM

Aaahh, yeah... doing that stuff in a roleplay heavy game where you can't just go "I'm going to create a Lore advantage to bamboozle them with words about this topic" is chlalenging.

Alyksandrei

Yep. I'm having a lot of fun with this game, even though I feel like I'm not actually doing much. I like to listen to the other players...

doppelgreener

All of this is good information to mention in the question.

Alyksandrei

ok, I'll work on that.

doppelgreener

5:32 AM

Oooo. Our Reputation panel just got upgraded.

It has a tracker for your next badge at the bottom now.

trogdor

oh

uh

I just got a gold badge for sitting in chat for 100 days?

I did not know that was a thing, or maybe I just forgot it

doppelgreener

you visited the site!

trogdor

5:50 AM

yes

that is what I mean

Alex Mitan

10:09 AM

Hello!

Although I had massive eye-openment after my first session, I have more ideas

Overload Dice! This one's inspired by Cthulhu Dark a bit... It can work with anything, I guess, but let's say we're focusing on magic now... On a roll that you really want to take, you can add extra Fate dice to your roll, of a different colour, and roll them all.

You take your normal 4dF's result, and add any pluses on the Overload Dice. The blanks are ignored. The minuses, however, indicate you strained or misused the resource somehow, and either the GM gathers Overload tokens on you, or throws out unrefusable compels that are relevant.

Minuses on a magic roll could indicate some sort of magical anomaly or strain on you, or even damage to other people, the environment, or more-dark-magic-than-you-had-in-mind pouring into the world or your mind.

For divine casting, it could be that the gods are frowning upon you or demanding that you prove your devotion further to tap into their reserves.

For physical characters, it could be bodily strain or revealing your technique to your enemy..

For sneaky or investigative ones, it could be attracting unwanted attention or stumbling upon something that you'd rather you didn't know

doppelgreener

10:27 AM

Sounds like fun, but you're always going to get a lot of overload effects.

There's some concepts related to this. One is succeeding at cost, which is baked into Overcome. The other is consequences as positive currency: if you take a consequence, you can take its value and add it to your roll (so +2 for a mild, +4 for medium, +6 for severe, +8 for extreme).

Also, Dresden Files RPG had evocation magic -- I'll let @BESW or @trogdor correct the names I'll use here -- which requires drawing on an enormous amount of power to do something, and then also trying to control it. So you'd make two rolls: one to have the power, then one to control that power. If your control roll fails, you either take the difference like an attack, or...

... you unleash the full power you conjured up (I think) on your environment, and the GM makes things go to hell in proportion to the amount of power you let loose.

Overload dice sound fun and chaotic.

And you've got a really good chance of something going wrong.

Sandwich

Its like Wild Mage

Alex Mitan

I know, I know we have success at a cost already, but it doesn't work well in combat

or in contests

but especially in combat

doppelgreener

It works in combat!

Just has to be worth it.

Alex Mitan

you fail a magical attack when it really matters? You can't just declare you actually succeeded... how much stress do you deal then? what cost would be good? but you can roll some Overload

either way, it might help to mechanise success-at-a-cost a bit for newer players

doppelgreener

???

Alex Mitan

10:42 AM

alternatively, but this is stronger, you could just roll all the dice, and keep the highest 4, if there's Overload in the highest dice, it also causes trouble

doppelgreener

@AlexMitan I don't know why you're asking those questions, because there's clear answers and you seem to be suggesting you can't do what you can.

Alex Mitan

Huh?

Oh, sorry, I meant... well... I don't know, I haven't really heard of success-at-a-cost-on-an-attack in combat

Also, it helps to tie in the narrative and mechanics a bit closer when you want it... you have a very clear indication of how much accumulates or is risked... maybe on a stealth run you can say something happens at 2 or 5 accumulated minuses

doppelgreener

Success at cost only happens with overcome actions. Consequences as positive currency happens with anything, and it's not in the Fate manuals - it's in the Evil Hat blog.

Might be in the system toolkit?

BESW

This is something I struggled with a lot.

Sandwich

Guys

You guys should come play old school runescape with me

BESW

10:45 AM

[digs around]

Alex Mitan

@doppelgreener Exactly... mostly I had in mind Overload for everything BUT overcome, where it'd work smoothly, in theory

Overcome at a cost happened very well on what was literally my first interaction with the players, it tied into a compel right after and it drove the session forward

But it couldn't have happened in combat, could it

doppelgreener

Using consequences as positive currency in an attack could look like... punching that guy so hard your hand breaks, or wrestling him to the ground (create advantage) but getting stabbed in the process, or you pin down the cave troll (create advantage) but you put yourself in a really bad position and get surrounded by goblins who do something, etc.

Alex Mitan

or it could have, but it was my first session so I wasn't really secure in that

doppelgreener

You succeed on your research but discover something terrifying and confronting (Cthulhu Dark) could be either overcome at cost or success with a consequence as positive currency

@AlexMitan Yes, why not?

Alex Mitan

Sure, but it says it right there: Consequences aren't always a good cost... there's a chance they won't really matter

doppelgreener

10:48 AM

Overcome at a cost, and consequences as positive currency, are two completely different concepts

Alex Mitan

my session was incredibly tense and it could've gone a dozen different ways, but the PCs actually took no stress

...which also lead me to very clearly see that narrative cost works VERY well with these players

as do narrative bonuses for that matter...

doppelgreener

When you succeed at a cost with overcome, it might be like: you break the door open, but people hear you. You jam the door shut, but now it won't open again. You find the intel you need, but you left a trace on their computer network. The guards let you through, but they're going to follow you around to make sure you don't do anything funny.

Alex Mitan

I don't mean to be antagonistic, @doppelgreener... I'm sorry if I came across as that way, I'm just very new and I had this idea that would make mechanical success at a narrative cost easier to implement for all four actions... I'm sure it could be done differently

doppelgreener

You just seem to be conflating two concepts that aren't inherently related.

Alex Mitan

@doppelgreener I know, the first Overcome roll was a success-at-a-cost where Z got past some guards that kept a close eye on her and budged in on her dealings later on

doppelgreener

10:51 AM

@AlexMitan Perfect :)

BESW

There's an associated confusion, I think, which is addressed in this answer:

10

A: What should happen in a legendarily successful attack against a mook?

In-fiction awesomeness is more appropriate as a reward than mechanical advantages. Players love to see their characters being awesome. Doing this leverages Fate's essential design, which is to move in a regular oscillation from narration to mechanics and back again. There are mechanical rewards p...

Alex Mitan

It was actually something quite grand... they dealt with the Compel super easily, so I made it look like that's all, but it came to bite them in the last scene

BESW

Narrative effect doesn't have to match, point-for-point, with mechanics.

Alex Mitan

I'm so proud of myself... so Z got this "The guards remain suspicious" aspect on her as a cost to tie on her Sneaky Overcome

BESW

> Fate is a two-stroke engine, and the narrative and mechanics have to fire in alternation or it stalls. Looking for mechanical awesomeness to follow a mechanically-awesome event will leave you wondering what's right, because Fate provides so many equally-good options with no guidance. By mediating that decision via a new piece of narration, choosing the mechanics to follow the narrative awesome that follows the mechanical awesome becomes effortless.

doppelgreener

10:53 AM

@BESW Aaahh... from my very first Fate session ever.

That two-stroke engine thing is a great concept.

Alex Mitan

she had this illusion-laced crystal to lure the other player out of the mines... right when she flashed the crystal a guard suddenly gained interest in their shady dealings Compel... they drove him right away, a combination of Z's subterfuge and B's authority in the place... I thought... how weaksauce was that

in the second scene, they met again in a marketplace to talk more

as they talked, more and more people started abandoning their posts and stalls across the alleyway, which tipped them off too late

before they know it, the only people left around were them, the guardsman from before, which turned out to be a corrupt crystal dealer, and a big thug on the other side

I pressured them with violence HARD, they still got out like this:

Z had her first stunt that gave her a +2 when Sneakily Creating Advantages relating to concealing and smuggling small items

plus her aspect "Dabbling Enchanter"

she said she hands over the crystal to the guard, with a small packet of sensitive fire dust primed to it

when the guard unravelled the bindings from the crystal, it blew up in his face for a margin of +5

in the next chase scene, I didn't even let him participate, instead sending the thug after him

BESW

(Also, tangentially: if I were to find myself in the situation of needing to quantify what "success at cost" meant in terms of shifts of effect, it's a simple choice between 1 and 2 shifts: 0 shifts = not a success; 3 shifts = success with style.)

Alex Mitan

they were almost winning the chase, when Z decided to just distract the thug as B thumped him in the back of his head, again burning a lot of invokes

BESW

@doppelgreener Two years ago!

Alex Mitan

now, the guardsman from the compel is a major antagonist and a potential pathway to more story on a higher scale

and the thug is actually a good guy bound both by debts and tracking runes to him... when he wakes up, probably bound in B's hideout (declared relevantly via FP), he's going to offer a deal

first off, I want to reward them for going out of their way not to kill or really harm anyone too bad

so the guard's going to thank them and ask them to disenchant (Z spotlight) the runes he's been inscribed with to force him to stay loyal (think magical slave collar)

and tell them he stayed loyal to the chief because his brother is in the mines, also enslaved... however, it's been two years since the binding expired, so Mr. Thug here is really losing his patience with the chief...

I'm not going to railroad anything, but the Thug IS my character, and he does have a backstory...granted, I expected him to burn in the first scene as a meat tank mook

they didn't, so I want to reward it

they spend like 3 Fate points just to avoid gruesomely wounding humans, and humans are the more immoral part of the multi-species world

doppelgreener

11:08 AM

(I must AFK! farewell for now :D)

Alex Mitan

I've read the response, and it's a great idea, what I wanted was something of a mechanical thing to yeld both narrative awesomeness and narrative awesome failure

it's still alternating, but it's tying in mechanical reliability (you know when and how it works) with narrative variety ("I REALLY need to get a boost here, but it might screw me over too")

See you, @doppelgreener, and I really appreciate the feedback!

I planned to...well, plan Overload just for magical characters, but since both boosts and complications are awesome, it'd just make mundanes feel more boring, so it could apply to them

I just wanted to offer some interesting, concrete choices too, and I'd love playtesting it some time

@BESW I really appreciate how actually playtesting made me realise how many of my additions don't really add awesome to Fate, but I still like experimenting and theorising

a lot less dice-rolling happens than I thought... and even when it happens, I want it to be even MORE narrative, in a clear way

BESW

Mmm. So here's something I've noticed: Adding dice almost always gets in the way of narrative flow.

It's more dice to count, more dice to roll, more dice to lose under the couch, more dice to count, more dice to evaluate. That's time spent focused on mechanics rather than narrative.

Alex Mitan

As in, okay, the ritual is really difficult, and you can't afford to fail... roll 6 Overload if you want... have fun... oh what's that... you accumulated 4 Strain tokens? We know -exactly- how badly this is gonna go

I agree

but it might evoke a good response from some players

BESW

If you want to increase the narrative power of a die roll with a mechanic, add a narrative element like consequences as currency.

That way you're focused back on negotiating over story rather than counting up dice and checking what colour they are.

Alex Mitan

the difference between "This could go really bad." and "This [points at Fallout tokens accumulating] is a powderkeg."

Sure... I'm probably not actually going to do it any time soon

BESW

11:17 AM

[shrug] That's just as easily "add a Fate point to the NPC pool" or "give the GM a free invoke on an aspect."

Alex Mitan

Mhm.. but I liked Doom Tokens... remember Doom Tokens?

BESW

Inventing new mechanics is fun, but I've poked enough Fate hacks to see that it's really rare that MORE mechanics makes for BETTER play.

Alex Mitan

@BESW Yep, and that applies to a huge lot of the mechanics and stunts I proposed before

BESW

Fiddle with existing mechanics; there's an art in making the smallest change possible to get the effect you want.

Alex Mitan

But this... there's something I like about this... basically I cleared up a lot of space in my mind and the idea of Doom Tokens from the SRD and Red/Blue dice also from the SRD joined up

and Cthulhu Dark's insanity dice

BESW

11:19 AM

You mean Doom points?

Alex Mitan

I think the last one is brilliant mechanics-to-narrative

Mhm

Right, doom POINTS...

I read Shamblington yesterday, and everything is represented with token accumulation, which I also like

BESW

Doom points work in large part because they're created by a very specific, very flavourful action which is central to the kind of game everyone wants to play.

They aren't an abstract "Sometimes you do stuff that will come back to bite you later." They're "You do this particular horrifying thing knowing full well that it comes at a cost to you."

Also, note that Red and Blue dice don't change the number of dice in the pool.

Fiddling with the dice curve is risky business. Everything about the game is rigged around the probabilities of 4 fudge dice.

Alex Mitan

@BESW Yes, but it actually doesn't change the dice curve... roll X, keep Y does

Roll 4, add X Overload simply adds X/3 average flat bonus

and X/3 average Fallout

rolling 3 Overload normally adds +1 bonus and +1 Fallout, and obviously 1 blank

the dice curve is sacred; it looks the same, but it's shifted by 0,33 to the right for every die

and again, it adds narrative unpredictability... roll 2 extra die and you could get a nice bonus or you could have an awful mishap or a bit of both... or you could just get two blanks... more magic is called upon, but it simply doesn't respond, your gods are doing Pilates right now, your Drunken Brawler Stance isn't exceptional today, but it doesn't reveal its weaknesses either

BESW

11:42 AM

Mmm. I'm not sure narrative unpredictability is exactly what Fate's about, but if it works for your group...

Alex Mitan

12:41 PM

Not unpredictability rather than risk

"I'll do this, and there's a chance I'll draw both power and complications for it" sounds like fun to me, because I find it to be very indicative of things like dark magic or straining a relationship or poking through things you maybe should leave alone

And I find that it could, in theory, create tension and drama... let's say you use the "Fallout is expended by the GM as hard-to-refuse compels"... and it's a session about poking through the underbelly of the city for information about a crime lord... the players NEED to get some leads, so they roll Overload... will the GM expend the stack of Fallout gradually to make things more difficult... or if he's not... they see this pile accumulating... what's he going to do with it?

Is someone purposefully waiting for the right moment to strike or confront the players? Is someone planning to let them pass through a-la Stormtrooper Planned Incompetence?

Miniman

There's an app for that: +1 to any roll of your choice, once per [Fate version of day].

Alex Mitan

@Miniman Hah, that's cool!

How did I make the large boomy text again?

Alyksandrei

1:00 PM

was working on formulating a question last night, and now I've got another draft...anyone around who'd be willing to workshop it with me? I'm kinda afraid it might be too broad...

Alex Mitan

I would happily help you, but I don't think I'm very in-tune with the question formats and requirements, I'm sorry... that's why I spend most of my time ranting on chat

Alyksandrei

that's ok. I can always try again later. I've found that workshopping my questions in chat first leads to better answers.

Alex Mitan

It does, or asking for edits after posting.. really, I would help but I'm not very good

Reddit'll probably take your question as it is though... no offense

Wow, that sounded mean

No, you know what I meant

Alyksandrei

yes, i know what you mean. I'll see if anyone else is on later and ask again.

doppelgreener

1:50 PM

@AlexMitan (CC @BESW) I just remembered: adding more dice to a roll in Fate isn't actually a good thing.

The nature of rolling large numbers of dice with a small spread is this: you're only all the more likely to get the average, which in this case is +0. Let's compare 4dF vs 9dF for instance, but let's do it in the transposed view: even with more than double the number of dice, you're only going to get anything outside +4 or -4 ~5% of the time.

And the thing is: you're going to get -6 as often as you're going to get +6! Adding dice has equal chance of making things even worse, while doing very little statistically significant even when you're rolling as many as 16 dice.

All in all, 4dF is all that gets rolled because it's all you need. Your skills, your invokes, your actual flat +X bonuses to the roll are what matter. The dice themselves are just a chaos factor that add roughly +2/-2 to the roll (and even when you're rolling a full sixteen dice, the likelihood is it'll only add +3/-3, and be +4/-4 some of the time (see deviation).

Zachiel

@doppelgreener A graph view in the normal view might be better

doppelgreener

That's almost as good, but I wanted the lines and the percentages there.

(Actually I mis-spoke: it's not the case you're going to get the average more often, but huge numbers of small dice tend toward the average very easily.)

@AlexMitan There's a link to our formatting help in the bottom right in tiny text.

Alex Mitan

@doppelgreener I know, but if you roll 3 extra Overload dice, you don't roll 7dF

doppelgreener

@Zachiel Specifically the graph view emphasizes how much of the spread lies outside +4/-4 and makes it look great. The transposed view lets you compare the results, see they aren't so different in the +4/-4 range until you're rolling huge numbers, and that the outlier results you gain access to are vanishingly rare.

Alex Mitan

you roll 4dF, with an average of +1. blanks and minuses are ignored for the purposes of the roll

doppelgreener

2:01 PM

@AlexMitan Oh. Well then.

Alex Mitan

if you get three minuses, it's none of your business. Fallout can't be used to stop the action generating it

Let's say you roll to set someone on fire with fire magic, and you tap into more than you should... be it dark magic, your own energy or sanity whatever

let's have 3 Overload here

you roll 4dF, that yield
+ + 0 - = +1
and you roll 3dO that yield
+ - -

doppelgreener

Adding six overload dice increases things by roughly +2 which is about what we'd expect, with roughly 2 complications.

Alex Mitan

the + gets added to your skill roll, and the minuses are how many Fallout tokens the GM gets. He can't use them to stop this action of yours, but he can use them to set the entire area or a civilian on fire, to make you go insane, or something similar

I'm writing an article on it, and I'll detail various uses of Fallout for the GM

doppelgreener

I... suggest you find time to playtest it.

A few sessions in, when everyone's getting reasonably confident and won't have their experience of the system soured by y'all trying out something new and experimental while you're newbies. Try out a mad scientist NPC, let him blow up, give the players some mad science equipment with overloads to play around with for a bit. (The players should be advised you're using this as an experiment for overloads.)

Alex Mitan

@doppelgreener Yep, which is very predictable. Also, thanks for that, I get the syntax a bit better now

doppelgreener

2:08 PM

I also suggest you find time to playtest it before publishing an article about it, since that would be being a responsible netizen.

@AlexMitan What are Fallout tokens?

Alex Mitan

Overload dice always either help your action, or leave it alone

if they land on +, they give you a +

doppelgreener

Sure, I get that each - generates a falllout token for the GM. But what are fallout tokens?

Alex Mitan

if they land on a -, it means the resource you overtapped into (dark magic, relationships, sanity) had a mishap, and it adds a Fallout token to a stack of the GM

they are a GM resource that's non-refreshing and permanent, as opposed to the GM fate pool

doppelgreener

Are they fate tokens?

Alex Mitan

it can be used for complications, boosts to enemies, difficulty increases, or maybe most importantly narrative permissions

no, not immediately

it depends on context

doppelgreener

2:13 PM

@AlexMitan What you described just there was what fate points do.

Alex Mitan

Okay, but they're more granular.. by half, precisely

doppelgreener

So it sounds like Fallout points are just a special pool of Fate points the GM should reserve for particular things.

Alex Mitan

Well yes, I'm not pretending they're anything else

doppelgreener

Alright, it sounded like you were distinguishing them as not being Fate points.

Alex Mitan

if it's Divine Favour fallout, and you're a Paladin, you're asking too much of your god, and they might refuse to help you if you accumulate too much. Instead of it necessarily manifesting, maybe you need to sacrifice something or show your devotion to reduce fallout

They are half a fate point each

but the difference is they are more versatile in their constraints

meanwhile, if it's Dark Magic Fallout, you don't necessarily have a limit to how much dark magic you can use, but it can blow up at any time and summon awful things into the world by itself

doppelgreener

2:17 PM

@AlexMitan This sounds like something I wouldn't model as needing a fate point pool, but needing a stress track. (A somewhat common hack idea for Fate is that you have a Magic stress track, and when you use magic, you check off a box, or alternately when you use magic and something goes badly or alternately when something goes well, you check off a box, depending on desired flavour.)

Alex Mitan

or you might be FORCED to use Overload, if you're tampering with evidence you're using your Police Authority Overload since that's the only way. It'll help, but it'll decrease credibility if you get caught, and you might even get arrested yourself, or at least fired

doppelgreener

@AlexMitan And specifically, this sounds like a consequence you take from your magic stress track being overfilled - your magic stress track at this point represents how much overload fallout you can safely handle. If you take too much fallout, a Divine character takes an appropriate consequence, and also flag it as (divine) so that everyone remembers that's what it is.

As part of their recovery, they need to do something to show their devotion to their cause, and that consequence is compellable until then to have their god not help them out sometimes.

@AlexMitan This sounds like something else altogether: Dark Magic lets you avoid creating that consequence by instead letting the GM create advantages on the scene or bring in new NPCs, like Dresden File's backlash.

I think this overload thing sounds pretty cool, but it also sounds like what you want it to do is what consequences do, and it doesn't seem to be what fate points do, let alone a new kind of fate point.

Alex Mitan

2:35 PM

The main reason I like this is the following: it adds quantifiability to normally vague, "up to the GM" variables

And it quantifies how much and how bad, and it puts it into the hands of the players, rather than the GM

Sure, doing something questionable itself can add Fallout, again something that doesn't happen with FP

but mainly, it puts it into the hands of the players... the hands of the players is why my game even managed to keep moving

the moment I thought something would stall, a player kicked it forward

doppelgreener

I don't understand what you mean by vague, up to the GM variables.

(I'm also not sure why any of what you're saying disqualifies consequences and stress, which is totally in the players' ballpark, and all of which are quantified and qualified.)

Alex Mitan

I'm not trying to disqualify anything..

does it sound like that?

doppelgreener

A little bit. But I'm still not sure what you mean by "vague, up to the GM variables." Nor how a new type of fate point and its corresponding pool solves that .Could you clarify?

Alex Mitan

honestly, yes, yes it is a stress track, but it's in a phyisical, more tactile form

becase a Fate point is generally "two", and a stress bubble is generally "one"

yes, one fallout is "one". Instead of having a couple of stress tracks, you have a couple of stacks

why I use tokens is this: visibility and tactility. They worked FANTASTICALLY at my table because players react well to stuff they have right in front of them and that they can touch.

doppelgreener

Don't confuse needing physical touchy-feely things with needing the function of fate points.

Alex Mitan

2:40 PM

Even rolls and arms races, as they progressed, worked well with d10s on the table

doppelgreener

We could represent stress with tokens as well, it's just easier to represent them as boxes we tick off.

The reason we make fate points a physical thing is because we can literally pass them around and that's helpful.

Alex Mitan

It's basically stress tracks, in token form, where each token is half a fate point for one specific theme

doppelgreener

Right. So, why?

Alex Mitan

Why what?

doppelgreener

Why have fallout tokens?

Alex Mitan

2:43 PM

Instead of something or why at all?

doppelgreener

"So that it is physical" is not a reason to go and invent a whole new kind of fate point and pool. You're also seeking out specific narrative consequences for overload, and there's things for that: fate points and consequences. You're also looking for recovery mechanisms, which is what consequences do, not what fate points do, so we have that narrowed down to: the narrative you're looking for is modelled by consequences. So, why introduce a whole new type of pseudo-fate point?

Zachiel

Apart from the visual experience of colored beads insteadd of ticks on a paper sheet, the difference I can see (even being a Fate profane) is that with a track things happen when it's full (the players can take some risks but the more they use it the more they approach the time when it's full, while Alex' tokens consequence timing is in the DM's hands. You as the DM can have the consequences manifest if they're as few as 2 or let them accrue.

Alex Mitan

They are, functionally, stress tracks

but I need them to be very mobile

that's why tokens, and not tracks-and-erasing

@Zachiel Yep. It's setting-dependant how bad "one" is and how "many" you can fit

doppelgreener

@Zachiel So the thing that baffles me here is one of the problems Alex is describing is that things are vague and up to the GM. Giving the GM a new kind of fate point is specifically up to the GM, consequences are up to the player and whoever they have to negotiate with.

Meanwhile consequences are not vague as well.

Alex Mitan

@doppelgreener But we know exactly when and how tokens generate

If a player can take advantage of Overload, but never will, it says something about them

doppelgreener

2:47 PM

Yes. So, why do you need a whole new type of fate point?

Alex Mitan

If everybody's a cartoonishly evil necromancer, maybe they accrue huge amounts of Fallout tokens, and it's exactly their "fault"

doppelgreener

Look, let's put it this way:

You pick mechanics to solve problems, or to create specific experiences.

Fallout points as a whole new half-pseudo-fate point mechanic, at every step of the way, do not seem like the solution nor the mechanic you need.

Alex Mitan

yep, I have the "What I'm trying to do here" section done

want it?

doppelgreener

Yes.

You should have let me know you were writing that. Please do so next time.

Or I would've just waited for the answer. I thought you were actually giving me the answer and I was getting non-answers.

(which means a whole lot of wasted time and frustration)

Alex Mitan

Sorry... I can't fit the whole thing here... where do you think I can post it?

even just that section

I elaborate on it later on

doppelgreener

2:49 PM

Insert a newline somewhere. (Shift+enter.)

Alex Mitan

As such, any mechanics added to Fate need to add to its narative, and sometimes it applies reciprocally. So here’s what I’m trying to do with Overload Dice, basically:

1) **Emulate** what it’s like to tap into resources beyond your normal capability, with very clear, accumulating fallout that can affect yourself, your environment, other characters, the mission, etc. You have a choice that’s as tactical as it is narrative.

2) Have a very clear way to **quantify** and keep track of fallout, to make GMing easier and consequences feel as physical as Fate Points... they’re not just looming thr…

I need to go for a bit, I kept delaying it

I'll be back, okay?

doppelgreener

I'll be asleep.

I've said all I need to say, this added nothing new. :/

There is no reason to add a new type of fate point, fate points are an OK side effect but not the best mechanic to model what you're going for nor even an appropriate one, and you appear to have come from the conclusion of "it must be physical, because my players enjoy physical things" to the exclusion of mechanics they will also enjoy. (Didn't they also enjoy what the aspects did, representing the things they did and the costs they accepted and so on?)

You're confusing the desire for something tactile with the need for a new game mechanic, as well.

Zachiel

Have their stress tracks be represented by accruing tokens.

doppelgreener

Right. But the stress isn't the important bit; stress gets cleared and is ephemereal. What really happens is consequences, and those tie back into narrative palpably.

This desire for something physical, and assuming it must be physical for the players to derive enjoyment from it, is a red herring when the mechanic matching exactly what is desired exists already, and defining a whole new type of psuedo-fate point is an undertaking with nothing asking for it.

Zachiel

3:07 PM

Mh no wait, making things physical is a good idea anyway. Boardgames have shown us it works. The "problem" is that both mechanics, Tracks and fallout points, do the same thing with basically two differences: tactility and who decides when the consequences apply. Now, if Alex wants the players to be free from the track's "ok I can do it it's safe --> I can do it no more" mechanism, the new mechanic is viable.
If the intended effect is giving players as much control on when consequences happen, tracks are better. This has nothing to do with tracks already being a mechanic.

doppelgreener

This isn't a board game. :U

Making things physical is not inherently a good idea, it's something you do because you have specific reasons to do so for the experience you're creating.

In Fate, "make things physical" makes no sense as an inherent reason to do anything.

Zachiel

If the players like physical things, making things physical is a good thing to do. I should use physical tokens more when playing D&D 4e skill challenges (when the result is public) because players don't get they're on the edge of failure otherwise, for example

Alex Mitan

The difference from stress is this one: you said it yourself, stress is ephemeral

fallout is not

doppelgreener

Yes. Consequences are not.

Alex Mitan

something has always got to reduce it

Right, but having 12 different consequences is aspect spam

doppelgreener

3:22 PM

Whoever said having 12 different consequences?

Alex Mitan

well if you have.. let's not say 12, but 6 fallout

doppelgreener

I'm not suggesting translating 1 fallout to 1 consequence.

Alex Mitan

you have 6 tokens stacked on Dark Magic and 3 on Divine Favour

how do you model that?

Zachiel

as I understood it from the "one fallout is half a fate point" there's one consequence per 2 fallouts?

doppelgreener

@AlexMitan I wouldn't model it that way at all, and you're starting at the mechanics, which doesn't make sense.

Alex Mitan

3:24 PM

one fallout is vaguely equivalent to half a fate point because it results from one point of minus... fate points are generally two something

Zachiel

@AlexMitan 6 ticks on the Dark Magic stress track, 3 ticks on the Divine Favour stress track, I guess

doppelgreener

@Zachiel You have not played Fate though, have you?

Zachiel

@AlexMitan oh ok I got it wrong. How many fallout grant a consequence in your mechanic?

Alex Mitan

@doppelgreener I didn't start at mechanics, I started at getting a similar feel to Cthulhu Dark and Voidcallers... the players having a choice whether or not to tap into something at the expense of something else

Zachiel

@doppelgreener Uhm, right. I have played other games with stress tracks but not Fate, I'd better stay put

doppelgreener

3:26 PM

@AlexMitan The question you asked me was "i have this mechanic of X fallout, how do you model this mechanic."

Alex Mitan

@Zachiel They don't grant consequences directly, it's setting-dependent. The only reason I'm modelling them as tokens on piles or colours is the physical part, because that works well for us and some others. Also, because there's no upper limit to a stack

@doppelgreener Yes, I asked what's wrong with a sitation where you have X fallout on one pile and Y in another, as a result of your own actions

generally, I suggest only using one pile

or one per player, to describe their specialty

either way, normally it shouldn't reach numbers that are super high, but my point isn't how you model it, whether it's ticks with a pencil, a counter, or tokens

The fiction could even say something like "Using magic against humans, to directly harm or control them, requires the use of at Overload. At X Fallout, the Council Wardens come looking after you and they can spend it afterwards to inflict compels and complications and penalties etc"

The main reason anything exists is player choice. It's a choice that is tactical (+) as much as it is narrative (-)

Zachiel

@AlexMitan that's how I understood it

doppelgreener

I'm suggesting that what you're describing sounds like it could be soundly modelled like this:
- a Magic stress track. When Overload dice turn up minuses (which we'll call "fallout"), you take that many shifts a la an attack, and must absorb them using your Magic stress track. Most characters will start off with 3 Magic stress boxes, which means a maximum of 6 fallout you can handle before something goes wrong. Magic stress is cleared at the end of a scene like usual.
- When you take fallout your stress track can't soak up, you take a consequence for the remainder. Mild consequences might b…

Alex Mitan

Someone is getting away and it's your last shot to get them... you blow 6 Overload on your Divine Favour to blatantly, crudely ask your god to warp reality just to help you... they'll demand things from you or refuse to help you afterwards, but right now, you can tap into that

@doppelgreener Yes, but all of that is immediate

doppelgreener

@AlexMitan No?

> - That consequence is available as a compellable and invokeable aspect by anyone to have things go badly, including the player themselves.
> - You must take actions to recover from these results. (You have to do something to deal with it.) Until then, things continue to go badly.

It has lasting results, like you're describing.

Alex Mitan

3:36 PM

That's not what I meant. I want a delay

In a horror or tense game, I want the ability to have the players see the fallout pile build up with no seeming consequence... they go snooping around a haunted house or looking for someone and the pile seems not to change... they start being suspicious... who's letting them go?

doppelgreener

Okay.

Alex Mitan

why is nothing jumping out at them?

doppelgreener

I'm going to go to bed, 'cause I'm not in a frame of mind to talk about this right now.

Alex Mitan

It offers, as I said, an option in GMing style

Fine... it's not like it's playtested anyway... it's not obviously a good idea any more than it's obviously a terrible idea

doppelgreener

3:50 PM

@AlexMitan Yeah, just that... it seems the mechanic you're describing isn't appropriate for what you want, and creating a psuedo-fate point also seems unnecessary, meanwhile it remains something that's vague and up to the GM when you described that as a problem, so it doesn't seem to me like it's a solution and it's more of what you see as a problem.

And at the moment I am a bit frustrated from communication breakdowns and other stuff that I'm approaching you with that frustration and that's not a good way to have a game design discussion.

Whatever you're really trying to get out of this mechanic is something I'm not absorbing well either, 'cause I'm tired and 'cause I'm frustrated.

I'd strongly advise at least - stick with using regular fate points for now, rather than introducing extra new parts that will be their own challenge to balance and work out. (And work out a good way to translate overload into fate points.) Add a new thing when it seems absolutely necessary.

One of Fate's strengths is the re-use of the same mechanics in different ways, and the resulting lack of different subsystems. D&D 3.5e will show you why having loads of subsystems is a problem. (On an entirely different scale, mind.)

But now... sleep time.

Alyksandrei

Checking again: anyone able and willing to help me workshop a question?

Zachiel

Willing, yes, able... well let's try.

MInd you, I will be busy doing other things so I might be slow.

Alyksandrei

That's ok.

I saw [this question][1], and it got me thinking about why I feel like I'm having trouble getting into character, and what I can do to change that. So **how can I play a character who is totally unlike me?**

In addition to [this question][1] about emulating elite military teams, I have also studied this question on [playing intelligent characters][2] and this one on [manipulative characters][3]. They have all helped, but I don't feel it's enough. Maybe I'm just having trouble putting the pieces together in a way that feels right, or maybe I'm just too different from what I envision my char…

Sorry for the wall of text - it doesn't seem as long in the preview...

Zachiel

4:05 PM

Mmmh you fear opinion based, is it?

Alyksandrei

no, I was actually thinking it might be too broad. But opinion based is also a valid concern.

Zachiel

No, I don't think I can help in this case. I'm not good at this sort of questions at all.

I'm sorry.

Alyksandrei

That's ok. I'll check again later. Maybe someone else will be on.

Shalvenay

6:16 PM

@Alyksandrei -- you still about?

I suppose I can try to help you workshop your question if there's nobody else 'round

Alyksandrei

Yep. Multitasking, but still here.

@Shalvenay thanks. do I need to re-post my draft, or did you read it already?

Shalvenay

also, got a question-idea of my own I want to bounce off some folks -- I'm trying to think of how to make a non-evil (preferably Good) spider deity to go with my very definitely not uniformly evil desert-dwelling drow

@Alky

@Alyksandrei I did see your draft...

and I actually think the main problem is that you have 3 questions' worth of question there

Pixie

Yeah, I got to the end and it seems like the 3 points you have could be, well, 3 questions.

Shalvenay

each of which has its own set of answers in turn

the "career military" is one thing -- old Army or Marine Corps field manuals are likely to be of aid there

Alyksandrei

@Shalvenay Yeah, I thought of that as I was writing it. But then I was having trouble separating them so I didn't have to repeat all the background for each of them...

Shalvenay

6:22 PM

@Alyksandrei -- I'd ask the military question first, then use a link+summary in the other two to avoid repeating the full background all three times

Pixie

@Alyksandrei You could link to the first question in the subsequent questions and say "this is the background."

Haha, yes.

Alyksandrei

OK, let me work on that for a bit. Still multitasking. Thanks.

Shalvenay

@Pixie -- hey there btw. you want me to try putting a draft for my non-evil spider-god question up here?

Pixie

@Shalvenay Sure. I'm not necessarily the best at question-polishing (since I haven't asked too many yet), but I can take a look.

I've got to run and pick something up soon, but I'll be back later.

Shalvenay

Background: I have been working on a setting for D&D 5e for a while now, and one of the core themes of the setting is that "the races aren't what you think they are at first glance". This means that while there are drow (as an example) present, no implications are made about their alignment, and their origins are not the same as the "stock" Forgotten Realms drow (dark skin to me means jungle or desert vs. cave-dwellers).

This, however, leaves me in an interesting quandary, because while the drow from this setting still strongly revere spiders (in fact, they have domesticated some ground-spider species in the setting as vermin-hunters and pets), Lolth is clearly not a viable deity for them in this setting, as she is quite clearly considered an evil deity by D&D, with evil rites to match, and producing evil clerics and blackguard.

The Problem: How, then, would I go about creating a custom (or tailored) deity that would match up with my existing deities (taken largely from the Greyhawk pantheon) while being both 1) spider-themed (in lore and rite) and 2) Good-aligned?

Pixie

6:39 PM

@Shalvenay Hmm. Can you give some more detail on the problem you're having creating the deity? What are you struggling with, or where do you feel you need guidance?

Shalvenay

@Pixie I'm not quite sure where to begin -- the very imagery of what such a deity would look like to begin with defies me!

Pixie

I think it is answerable. It might be too broad, but I can at least envision how I'd answer it.

Shalvenay

alrighty then, Ill wait a bit and see if any other opinions pop up before asking it

Pixie

I'll also try to think of the right questions to even ask to probe for more. :P

Alyksandrei

7:08 PM

New Draft: First Question

So I saw [this question][1] about running an elite military team of NPCs, and it has some good advice and several resources. But I'm not the GM; I'm a player, and as such only control a single character rather than a team. Is there any different advice for a player?

----------

Since it may be relevant (and then again it might not), here's a little bit about my character:

__Initial Concept__: Sigma Force operative. (Sigma Force is a series by James Rollins; excellent read.) Basically, take military or former military (often but not necessarily Special Forces) who are either unusually inte…

Shalvenay

7:30 PM

@Alyksandrei -- that's a good question for the site now, I think

Alex Mitan

reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/3jvrm3/…

Here's my article on Overload, if anyone's interested. I'd love to hear thoughts on this.

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