TRPG General Chat

Ben

12:20 AM

Has anyone read this question?

Miniman

@Ben Yep, why?

Ben

Bit of a story from the other side of the coin - could be helpful: We once played a game from Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader, and my character was an Explorator (Tech Priest). Highly logical type of character. We entered the mind of one of our other players, and as a highly logical character, any time I made mention of how I would be reacting to this place, the DM made me roll an insanity check.

Just wondering if that might be useful information/a useful tack on how to manage players interacting with the world (with some work, ofcourse)

Althis

Wolo!

Miniman

@Ben I'm not sure it really adds anything...I think the querent just wants to hide the true nature of the city rather than using it to drive his players insane.

Ben

Yeah, that is one of the main differences. But that's not quite what I wanted to play at. Basically, the way it was played (with my character) was that any time I inspected something closely, or mentioned something about the world that might not quite make sense in my mind, there was a "reaction"

Miniman

12:28 AM

Ah, I see what you mean.

Ben

Hmm... now that I'm thinking about it, that doesn't really address the question haha

@Miniman do you see any relevance there?

Miniman

@Ben Not sure how you could make it work in this scenario. It'd be cool to have something happen every time the players got curious about the nature of the city, but in D&D that's really not going to discourage them.

Maybe something like "Every time the players get curious, a nearby NPC dies."

Ben

@Miniman Haha, very true.

Miniman

Assuming they're playing Good characters, that might keep them from asking too many questions.

Ben

Hmm... if I ping the OP here, will he get it?

Miniman

12:33 AM

Nope, the usual method is to invite him in a comment.

Ben

Ahh ok

Worthwhile you reckon? (Pinging him and discussing this point that is)

Miniman

It's up to you. I'd say something like "I have some ideas that might help you run this in play, if you're interested here is the link to chat."

Ben

Give it a shot :)

BESW

1:01 AM

It's a good question. RT @RebelsHeart: "Why did we never make a tilapia golem before?" - @UrsulaV #dnd

Tweeted by jennmercerFE on July 7, 2015 at 12:33 AM

Personally I'm leery of using punishment to train my players; ethics and friendships aside, it's very hard to walk back if you change your mind later.

Miniman

@BESW I wasn't thinking of it like that - more like a Dr Who episode. You're in an environment with elements that puzzle you, but, for example, if you ask someone about it, they refuse to answer. Then you never see them again.

BESW

So long as it's presented as part of the puzzle--that is, a thing to be examined, but cautiously, rather than a lesson in not examining things--that should be fine.

Miniman

It discourages immediate investigation, while encouraging subtle, longterm information gathering. Then when it turns out they were all zombies anyway, guilt is wiped away.

I'm trying to think of an episode that does the sort of thing I mean...

BESW

I think it was the "Assuming they're playing Good characters, that might keep them from asking too many questions" that pinged my alarm bells.

Ben

Yes, I don't really know what tack the DM want's to go with, but if it were me, I would want to leave breadcrumbs

BESW

1:06 AM

That kind of attitude is a major cause of murderhoboism.

Though, the whole plot conceit is based on a couple of fundamental railroad principles that the querent would do well to be more consciously aware of.

If your game needs certain things to happen in a certain order, it takes guile as well as mechanical mastery to make sure it plays out that way.

Personally I think it's an awesome concept to walk into, and there's no need to orchestrate a particular way the PCs will encounter it.

Ben

Also the way I read it, the OP wants to keep the illusion hidden, but at the same time, in just asking this question, he wants to know how he can manage them finding out..?

BESW

He wants to control the pacing of the story by first concealing the nature of the city, and then revealing it at a time of his choosing rather than letting the players or the dice determine when the truth is uncovered.

> My idea was to trap my players in the city, which is just an illusion made by Very Evil Black Mage. Just on the very end the players are going to dispel the illusion, and see what they have done.

Ben

Ahh yes.

Would it be fair to say that while it is an illusion, coming from an "All-powerful Very Evil Black Mage" (love that name haha) that Detect Magic from a low-level character would bring up squat?

BESW

There's that word again--"fair."

It'd be narratively justifiable.

Codeacula

waves to everyone

Shalvenay

1:20 AM

hey all

Ben

waves back

keeps hand up suggestively for a high five

BESW

[intercepts high five]

Codeacula

Huzzah! highest of fives noooooooooooooooooo @BESW

High five blocked again

BESW

But it'd probably undermine the PCs' confidence in the mechanics of their characters, leading them to expect the GM to feed them plot and making them less inclined to seek agency in their own stories.

Shalvenay

yeah...

Ben

1:21 AM

@Codeacula It's alright... we can high 5 later when he's not here...

Codeacula

Sounds like a plan

BESW

Aw.

[brushes off five, raises it up again]

Codeacula

None for you

high fives anyway

Ben

@BESW "Fair" and "Justifiable" do go somewhat hand in hand

Shalvenay

@BESW -- mind if I toss you an annoying alignment issue in NAB?

BESW

1:24 AM

@Ben Sometimes, but they aren't interchangeable.

Alignment justifies a lot of unfairness, for example.

@Shalvenay Isn't that sort of a tautology?

Ben

It was fair when I told Codeacula I had a high five for him cos you stole it, and it was justifiable that he denied you the high five when you asked for one :P

(At first anyway)

Speaking of... Quick! @BESW has gone to NAB... @Codeacula High five!

Codeacula

high five's @Ben BWAHAHAHA

Ben

Bahahaha!!

Codeacula

Is everyone's dice rolling well tonight?

Ben

Currently at work :( wish I could be dice rolling!

BESW

1:33 AM

[checks]

4d6

Dice Service

•

BESW

...the low end of average tolerances.

Ben

hmm...

d20

Dice Service

8

Ben

blegh

Miniman

1:34 AM

@BESW @Ben Late, but FWIW this would be narratively justifiable but not mechanically justifiable.

Codeacula

Hmmm

d20

Dice Service

7

Codeacula

Eh

Ben

@DiceService Do I get a proficiency bonus with that?

Codeacula

I play Shadowrun, soooo

50 dice?

12D6

Dangit

Adeptus

1:35 AM

@Codeacula limit is 9 per set, but you can roll 4 sets at once.

Ben

@Codeacula ERROR: TOO MANY DICE

Codeacula

9D6

Dice Service

•

Adeptus

So, you can throw caltrops:

9d4 9d4 9d4 9d4

Dice Service

4

3

2

4

3

4

1

2

3

1

3

2

3

1

3

4

2

3

2

3

4

2

1

4

2

3

2

4

2

Codeacula

1:36 AM

haha

BESW

Dice roller & formatting tests playgr…

The roller supports: d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20. You can roll ...

Codeacula

Well, whatever that test was, I failed

That's why my players like me DMing

Ben

@Adeptus Did that once. Lol. Someone was storming off, threw 3 d4s. They hit the ground haha

@Codeacula a good DM has bad dice. lol

Codeacula

@Ben I must be a great one, then

Ben

Remind me to join your next game :P

Codeacula

1:38 AM

They love my characters and my stories, and love my dice.

Ben

I think you might have the difficulty set to "easy" then

Codeacula

Nah

They either take advantage of my terrible rolls, get their own lucky rolls

Or one time I let a friend visiting from out of town take a character I made specifically for mayhem and they used him fully. Character's name was "Truck".

Ben

@Codeacula There is a downside to this though. For instance I remember one game I played - the DM made a bit of a side story for me; I was being followed, so I did my best to avoid them (to no avail), and I ended up getting jumped. I stated that I just wanted to disable them, but I ended up blowing holes through all their chests.

Needless to say that little side-quest didn't end up taking off. Lol

Codeacula

Haha. See, they could just do a called shot or something

And chances are with my terrible rolls it would work

Recently is hasn't been an issue, but there hasn't been too much to roll against

And my bad rolling mostly comes in making them get in danger

Once they get into it, the law of averages takes over

Ben

@Codeacula "A large troll comes crashing out of the bushes and swings at the nearest hero..."

rolls

"...and trips on a log, toppling him into the nearby ravine that seemingly just appeared behind you."

Codeacula

1:53 AM

Haha

Ben

[Player] "...do we still get xp?"

Codeacula

Level 4 Ravine

Ben

@doppelgreener good day sah!

holds hand up for a high five

...arm's getting a bit sore...

....this isn't happening is it...

Codeacula

haha

Ben

@Codeacula high five? Don't want to let it go to waste...

Miniman

2:04 AM

@Ben His last message was 13 hours ago. Just because the chatroom thinks someone is here doesn't mean they are :P

Codeacula

steals the high five meant for @doppelgreener

Ben

@Miniman That seems a bit broken

Codeacula

Sorry, I was busy telling Dad jokes while my daughter watches Little Mermaid

Ben

@Codeacula What's the strongest days of the week?

Saturday and Sunday. The rest are "weak" days.

Miniman

@Ben Well, as long as he has a browser open somewhere that visited the chatroom at some point, he'll count as being here.

Codeacula

2:06 AM

rimshot

Ben

@Miniman ah fair enough

trogdor

and I think it also says someone is here for a little bit even when they log out

but either way, it does mistake people for actually being here when they are not

doppelgreener

2:30 AM

@Ben HRAAAAAAAAAARRRGH!!! [charges fervently into the chat room yelling a warcry at the top of his lungs and swings his hand into Ben's]

[shockwave makes the walls crack and the windows burst]

Ben

Roll to react!

d20

Dice Service

9

Ben

plus initiative...

13?

doppelgreener

you invited this high five, it happened!

Ben

[Ben does not brace well enough in time - the force knocks him to the ground]

I am now prone

doppelgreener

2:32 AM

[also sent to the ground by his own high-five]

Ben

[Spends action to stand - my hair has been swept comically back from the shockwave]

Well that was the high-five of the century

doppelgreener

I roll to see if I too have excellent hair

d6

Dice Service

•

doppelgreener

i'm gonna say "yes", and I take ~~Fantastic~~ Stunning Hair 2

Ben

shock

awe

doppelgreener

2:34 AM

[poses]

Adeptus

d6

Dice Service

•

doppelgreener

[hair poses also, it can do that]

Adeptus

I'm stunned

Ben

[frantically bats at my hair to make myself more appeasing in your magnificent presence]

d6

Dice Service

2:35 AM

•

Ben

[I somehow appear to make it worse]

doppelgreener

i think that is supposed to be opposed by my stunning hair?

2d6

Dice Service

•

doppelgreener

your hair is catastrophically overwhelmed yes

Ben

Seriously guys... you can't write this shit

hahaha

Adeptus

2:36 AM

@Ben (I think we just did)

doppelgreener

We did!

Adeptus

[recovers from his stunnedness, and staggers off in search of lunch] FOOOOOD!

Ben

@doppelgreener We are amazing

And some of us also have amazing hair

Correction - Stunning*

Magician

There will be giant humanoid robots fighting in a year. In melee. What a time to be alive.

2

Ben

Quick - we need a comic strip artist for this - I just want to see @doppelgreener and @doppelgreener'sHair pose haha

doppelgreener

2:47 AM

@Magician Evangelion takes place in 2015-2016.

Magician

@doppelgreener I'd be more concerned with Pacific Rim, myself.

trogdor

lol

poison Kaiju blood everywhere

Shalvenay

I still want to see the look on Smaug's face when he finds out the hard way he just tried to tailgate an A380 on short final

Pixie

3:17 AM

The alignment discussion earlier made me think of this, but I couldn't link it from my phone...

4

doppelgreener

@Pixie that would make things a whole lot neater

very freeing

Nyoze

Hey folks :)

trogdor

@doppelgreener I think it is actually just a comment on how most players/PC's act regardless of what alignment they actually have

doppelgreener

@trogdor Oh right XD That's true actually.

Nyoze

Am I the only one that actually enjoys RPing Lawful Stupid? :P

trogdor

3:29 AM

still, it does seem best to just try and ignore alignments

@Nyoze I tried it once, the main problem is that most groups don't go for that

Nyoze

Yeah... That's a point :(

trogdor

and there were certain points where my paladin had to either give up some of his ideals or fight the party or kill story crucial NPC's

just just get slaughtered

on the flip side

I played a Paladin later who's ideals were much more grounded

he clashed with the party in some ways, but the few times he put his foot down they backed off

part of the key was that he didn't do it often

Nyoze

That's one way to do it.

trogdor

also, he was the only guy healing everyone

not that he threatened to stop, just that that kind of thing can give you a little influence

Shalvenay

yeah. be nice to your logistics pilots. they're the only folks who can get you blown up by looking at your ship and doing nothing

Nyoze

3:36 AM

The last Pally I played, was probably closer to Chaotic then Lawful, but he had a habit of justifying everything he did as "Avenging wrongdoings"... That was actually fun.

Shalvenay

so yeah, how does half-orc half-nonhuman work in D&D 3.x?

(say a char that's Orc x Elf or Orc x Halfling)

trogdor

I don't personally like the D&D alignment system, but any time you roll play someone with different morals/ideals/ect than most of the party, it usually comes down to what your group will accept and how much you can refrain from rubbing it in their faces

Nyoze

"You just tortured that guy." "Yeah, but he had information that would avenge the theft of our holy artifact" "But aren't you supposed to be Lawful Good?" "I am."

trogdor

in my experience at least

Miniman

@Shalvenay As far as I'm aware, if it's been written as a race, it's that race. If not, it doesn't exist.

It'd make a decent mainsite question though.

Nyoze

3:39 AM

@trogdor Yeah. I'm just lucky most of the people I play with are all pretty open.

Pixie

@Shalvenay By the core I don't think they exist, but I wouldn't be especially surprised if something is out there somewhere.

Miniman

nvm, we already have a question on it.

2

Q: How are hybrids/cross-breeds calculated?

We all know half-elves, half-orcs, and even halflings, though halflings don't have similar pedigree. But are there such things as half-elf half-orcs or half-halflings (quarterlings)? What about quarter-orc three-quarters-elf? If so, what are their racial traits or how do I calculate their racial...

dnd-3.5e

trogdor

I think you would need to make or find a home brew for anything other than specifically a half orc/human and a half elf/human.

Shalvenay

yeah

but yeah, Orc x Elf sounds like a very interesting race for a Paladin

Miniman

@Shalvenay The easiest thing to do might be to reskin something.

BESW

3:43 AM

Here's a bit of lore-twisting for ya: humans aren't a species of their own, they're a self-sustaining interspecies strain with a bit of everything.

2

Shalvenay

yeah

haha @BESW

BESW

"Half-X" defaults to "human" for the other half because that's the only way you get a recognisably dominant species.

Half-orc and half-elf is just... human.

Miniman

A Wood Elf reads like an orc-elf to me. Bonus to Strength, penalty to intelligence

Shalvenay

yeah

wood elf would work I think

at least as a reskin starting point

Pixie

Yeah, I was thinking, "Either it's likely that elves and orcs could breed since both can breed with humans, suggesting compatibility, or they actually can't because humans are the link between them, not so unlike both that crossbreeding is possible, but elf-orc being a step too far."

Shalvenay

3:46 AM

talk about confusing Corellon and Gruumsh alike!

a land where orcs and elves live happily side by side?! WHAT IS THIS SORCERY!?!??!

Pixie

A world I might be more interested in playing in. :P

(I really don't like game-encoded sentient species vs. species conflicts much.)

Shalvenay

nor do I actually, so yeah :)

Nyoze

I don't go for species vs species conflicts... But sometimes a certain species just doesn't get along for various reasons...

Pixie

The reason is monoculture, usually. xD

Shalvenay

I could see Orcs being herdsmen actually

doppelgreener

3:49 AM

@BESW So "human" is the genetic (or aesthetic, given genetics might not exist) middle?

Nyoze

For example, All of my elves hate humans, with a passion. For nothing more then that humans chop down trees, and elves (At least my perception of a traditional elven village) live in the trees.

BESW

I kinda liked the way 4e's Points of Lights setting encouraged all other sapient races to cooperate, but have a subtle rivalry with the dragonborn... because the anti-dragonborn propaganda of the tieflings two thousand years ago is still considered historical truth.

doppelgreener

@BESW What was the anti-dragonborn propaganda?

BESW

@doppelgreener A tiefling-run human-populated empire was at war with the dragornborn-ruled multi-race-populated nationstates.

Both effectively lost the war, but the tieflings got to have a slow, dwindling fade from glory while the dragonborn got crushed.

So the tieflings got to write the history books, and described the war as a bid for dragonborn dominance over the entire world, seeking to enslave all other races.

(When that's actually closer to what the tieflings were doing, which is one reason the dragonborn nationstates were fighting them.)

doppelgreener

Wow.

Nyoze

3:52 AM

4e makes my head hurt, especially the lore...

doppelgreener

The dragonborn in the know must be a little bitter about that, haha.

@Nyoze I LOVE IT SO MUCH.

Nyoze

Haha.

It's just so... Different.

BESW

Fifteen hundred years later when the next human-founded empire arose, they welcomed all civilised races as equals... except the dragonborn, who were second-class citizens.

doppelgreener

@BESW oh no

Pixie

I like it too. That, I suspect, is why. It's different, with a recognizable reason for the tensions that exist. xD

Nyoze

3:53 AM

I grew up with AD&D/3.5 Lore, and then looking at everything that changed in 4e, it just doesn't make sense...

BESW

@doppelgreener The modern-day Points of Light setting is set shortly after the fall of that empire.

doppelgreener

@Nyoze It is less accurate to suggest they changed things, more accurate to suggest they put whatever was there aside entirely and made something new.

BESW

yeah, 4e is explicitly NOT a continuation of the lore of previous editions.

doppelgreener

Saying the lore changed between 3.5e and 4e is like saying the lore changed between Harry Potter and Dresden Files.

BESW

It's more like a reboot or alternate universe interpretation.

Nyoze

3:54 AM

@doppelgreener Yeah, I think that's actually a lot of it. 4e doesn't feel like Dungeon's and Dragons 4th Edition. It feels like a whole new game and lore.

doppelgreener

@Nyoze That's 'cause it is.

Nyoze

And then it gets mixed up even more as 5e seems to be back in the same vein as 3.5...

doppelgreener

@Nyoze 2e, I'm told.

Nyoze

I never had any experience with 2e, unfortunately, so I wouldn't know :(

doppelgreener

Players here of AD&D thru to D&D 3.5e like Wax Eagle have mentioned it feels more like 2e than any other edition.

Nyoze

3:56 AM

I'll have to try 2e one day.

doppelgreener

But it also took some bits from 4e. (While the development blog's authors simultaneously pretended 4e didn't exist or was a big mistake.)

Nyoze

Can I get some advice from you amazing RPG gurus?

doppelgreener

We are overflowing with willingness to give advice.

Nyoze

4

Q: Is this Dex/Int build Viable for a PVP arena playing primarily vs Glass-Cannon Casters

I am trying to develop a character who will be able to compete on even footing with Spell-casters by focusing on a high TAC (And possibly Damage-Per-Round) to compete in an arena setting, while not being useless vs melee-characters. All fights will be vs other player characters. The reason I wan...

pathfinder optimization pvp

What more information does this question need to have it reopened now?

Pixie

My issue with early/classic D&D lore is that it takes sentient creatures that by all means should be able to display a range of cultures and behaviors (unless their populations are extremely tiny and clustered) and... denies them that, I suppose. To have another elf culture, for example, we often have to have another elf sub-race; they can't just be elves that have different beliefs and lifestyles.

doppelgreener

3:57 AM

@Nyoze Don't know, ping KRyan or other people who voted to close it.

@Pixie Yeah that is a missing for me as well.

trogdor

@Pixie that is an excellent point

Nyoze

@Pixie Even worse, you would have extremely tiny and clustered population centres that would be months of travel apart, living with the exact same range of cultures and beliefs...

Pixie

@Nyoze That, too.

doppelgreener

The biggest missing for me was how they handled the elemental planes in the Great Wheel or whatever it is: one separate pocket dimension for each element. It made no sense to me at all and are terrifically dull compared to what they could be, and the creative centers of my brain basically just shut down out of refusal to work with that material.

Pixie

And a large part of this, at least from what I've gleaned (not having played prior to 3.5), is that earlier editions of the game were more human-centric. Even with 3.5, it simplifies the worldview, which makes it easier to know what to kill and what to not kill.

doppelgreener

4:00 AM

When 4e came up with the elemental chaos I was pretty excited and latched onto it as soon as I learned about it as the lynchpin of a campaign.

@Pixie Absolutely. As @BESW, I think, has pointed out before, it is also quite European centric, approaching other cultures the way early Europeans would have approached other ones.

But he would recall better than me his points about this.

(Was that you, BESW?)

Pixie

@doppelgreener Yeah, that is also true.

BESW

I've probably talked about that kind of thing, yes.

doppelgreener

Everything half-something having the other half be human is something that bugged me a little bit.

BESW

Another problem is that it's trying to codify a monomyth out of many culturally appropriated myths of different origins.

trogdor

D&D lore is simultaneously bloated and closed off

Pixie

4:03 AM

@BESW Yeah. This gets to be quite a mess.

BESW

Especially after it's been filtered through the monolithic and ethnocentric eyes of Hollywood and similar medias, the people a myth is associated with become flat and one-dimensional.

trogdor

they take so many different things from almost everywhere, but then they don't really do much with it

BESW

To be fair there are D&D settings where culture is more mechanically significant than species.

They're still horribly problematic in many ways, but that particular bugbear is not entirely ignored.

doppelgreener

@BESW I would be entirely unable to ignore that particular bugbear.

BESW

Bankuei's blog has lots of talk and useful links on these subjects, largely from people who are actually marginalised and otherised by such practices. Which is nice to see.

Pixie

4:10 AM

Yeah, there's definitely good material there.

BESW

The sidebar headings "Better Gaming Culture," "Broken Gaming Culture," and "Freedom through Geekdom" provide good starting places for entering the extant discourse on these matters.

Miniman

@Nyoze I didn't VTC, but I didn't vote to repoen, either. Since it was closed, you've edited in ways that have made it less of a good question for the site (from my POV). A lot of the restrictions have been relaxed, so it's much more broad than it used to be.

For example, the 'I want to fight ray-based spellcasters' requirement now has an addendum 'and everything else too', which makes it waaay more broad.

Similarly, I think taking the houserules out is going to seriously mislead answerers.

doppelgreener

@Miniman Oh. Speaking of the house rule restrictions. You went from "Here's a text-dump of our rules, in a lot of detail, including the stuff you don't care about" to "".

You will now get answers under the impression things are by-the-book, and we typically see responses along the lines of "That doesn't help me, because [house rule that wasn't explained]. Sorry. Thanks though." or something in those situations

Magician

@BESW Speaking as someone whose culture is constantly misrepresented by Hollywood/Western culture in general... So what? We tend to recognize it's a different culture and it's an entertainment product and it's just funny when a drunk astronaut fixes Russian satellite by hitting it. There is no expectation a D&D setting set in quasi-Russian fairy tales will accurately represent our culture. It could, and that'd be awesome. But if not, we'll just chuckle.

doppelgreener

@Magician I think you're aware at this point I'm about to run a session focusing on an invasion of Russian Dwarves and Moles in our ARRPG game, right?

Magician

4:23 AM

I am, and I say, go for it. Officially as an unelected representative of all the Russian people.

Adeptus

@Magician I've noticed similar with Hollywood's portrayal of Australians. Usually either drunks or crocodile hunters.

doppelgreener

@Magician I may also use that same kind of trope you just described here. (I hadn't thought of doing so but it may be entertaining.)

Miniman

@Adeptus (Or drunk crocodile hunters.)

BESW

@Magician Two things. First, the contextual topic is that such practices tend to reduce opportunities for complexity and nuance. Accuracy isn't at stake in this conversation, storytelling potential is, and the lament is that fantasy cultures are homogenised in part because media homogenises real cultures.

doppelgreener

[suddenly remembers certain other goals for the session, applying simplsitic genius Russian trope may be counterproductive for achieving them...]

BESW

4:26 AM

Second, there are people who will passionately argue that it's unhealthy for populations to only see each other through flattening stereotypes rather than as complex cultures; that this supports bigotry and makes it easier to demonise real people and be callous and uncaring about them.

doppelgreener

[edits a lot because he can't words today]

BESW

(The second point isn't what that particular conversation was about, but it's a common theme in the sources I linked.)

doppelgreener

@BESW Yes. Actually this is why I will not use that trope at all. It is easy to sort of... dehumanise individuals when you submit them to stereotypes, and I don't want to give y'all immediate reason to be uncaring about the dwarves.

Magician

@BESW But that's my point: I don't believe anyone reasonable would read an AD&D module inspired by Russian fairy tales and go "yep, that's them Russians for ya". Of course it's a simplification.

BESW

@Magician I'm not interested in that conversation right now. It's not a claim I made, and it's not an experience I can speak to from a position of personal knowledge. I said that I'm glad to read the opinions of people who are in that position, and it'd be weird for me to claim to speak for them.

It's a claim I'm certainly sympathetic to, and it's similar to issues I live adjacent to and am involved with in my personal life, but it's not an either/or issue.

Magician

4:31 AM

@BESW Fair enough, and I don't mean to argue. I am, however, supplying another perspective as someone who is also in that position, to an extent.

BESW

That's cool. I'm just not able to engage in a dialogue on it.

Nyoze

@doppelgreener @Miniman I decided that I didn't want something that was going to be limited by X, Y and Z. I wanted a place to start that I can build from there. I'll have a look though, thanks.

BESW

I can say, having read many articles, papers, and blogs, that a lot of people cite personal experiences which say that either "reasonable people" aren't as common and/or un-influential as you're implying, or that (and this is my preferred take on it) "reasonable people," in the absence of non-simplified narratives, will take the simplification as fact.

Pixie

Specific experiences should be addressed specifically. That is as much as I can really add. I would be cautious of extending your reaction to the stereotyping of your own culture to cover other cultures who are stereotyped in different ways and affected differently. That's part of why I can't add much more -- this is not a topic that lends itself well to generalization.

BESW

One Russian joke isn't a major issue. Systemic Russian jokes that crowd out other portrayals? Should maybe be given some thought. When we look at smaller, more fetishised cultures like Native Americans (and the fact that we can talk about them as a single entity is indicative of this), stereotypes can easily drown out actual understanding.

If you can find the Russian dialogues on this subject, I'd be fascinated to read 'em.

Magician

4:38 AM

@BESW I can only recall threads on a Russian RPG forum a decade ago, making fun of various RPGs attempting to represent pseudo-Russians.

BESW

World powers aren't often the subject of this discourse in the places I read; it's the Sami people in Frozen and the Native Americans in... everything... and the systemic portrayal of Africa as a monolithic culture with Egypt "not counting," and so forth.

Miniman

@Nyoze The problem is that as it stands your question is getting more towards being a request for tips, and those are better off on a forum.

Magician

Also worth mentioning is that we were the Enemy for quite a while, what with the Cold War and all. We were demonized as a matter of fact, and we grew accustomed to that, I suspect.

BESW

Also--there's a lot of Russian media by Russians, about Russians accessible to non-Russians. That changes the landscape.

Pixie

As an example I can personally discuss, I am from somewhere in Appalachia. The accent makes people in other places think you're not intelligent, and people get asked if they wear shoes or are met with genuine surprise for having teeth. This is a comparatively minor issue and I would not consider it oppressive in the way that a lot of cultures' stereotypes are, but it is a small-scale example of what a stereotype can do when absorbed at face value.

BESW

4:42 AM

My professional life touches very closely on the issues of peoples' struggle to produce media by themselves about themselves, and the difficulty of conveying one's own self-image when others' images of you is all that the public has to go on--and the only media image you have to refer to yourself.

Nyoze

@Pixie More then that. I can guarantee if you went to a bank for a loan, you wouldn't be approved for as much as you would if you told them you were from.... Pretty much anywhere else without a negative stereotype.

trogdor

@BESW I read a book last year about an Oglala Lakota named Red Cloud, it was pretty interesting in how it dealt with relations between the different tribes and whatnot

also, it was refreshing because he kicked such serious butt

this is what it was called, and what the cover looks like, if anyone is interested, best book I read the whole year, personally

Pixie

Thanks for the recommendation.

Dice roller & formatting tests playgr…

Transcript for