TRPG General Chat

Nyoze

12:11 AM

Morning people :)

Miniman

@Nyoze I would respond in kind, but @Magician appears to be present...it's not safe.

Nyoze

Nothing is sacred anymore :(

Magician

@Miniman You are like my herald. You both warn people of my coming and tell me when I'm needed. It's great!

@Nyoze Mine now.

Miniman

@Magician Kind of like the Silver Surfer...I guess I can work with that.

Nyoze

Well... Okay then :(

Miniman

12:25 AM

@Magician Wait, acting in that capacity can I have immunity to morning-theft? That way I can arrive in the chat and greet people with a hearty "Morning!", and then you can reap the replies from anyone foolish enough to fall into our trap.

doppelgreener

@Miniman Aha, a diabolical deal.

Like the herald of a vampire, who hopes to not be consumed.

Unfortunately we may turn on you for your treachery, and you would experience a downfall and penance of suitably dramatic proportions.

Nyoze

@Miniman That's okay. I think I have enough Good Mornings to share, even if Magician keeps trying to steal them.

Morning Doppel :)

doppelgreener

Ahaaaaaa almost got me there.

Hello, Nyoze!

Nyoze

How's it going?

doppelgreener

A greetings to you independent of any particular thievable time of day!

Nyoze

12:37 AM

You know, it's funny...

I always expected that Morning thieves would be pixies, and magicians would steal the night.

trogdor

in this universe that doesn't make any sense

Nyoze

Everything makes sense somewhere.

trogdor

that is true, but here magicians steal mornings, and pixies do not

2

Shalvenay

o/ @Nyoze

Nyoze

12:58 AM

Hoya.

Althis

Except it is The Pixie Inquisition.

As we all know:
"Nobody expectes the pixie inquisition."

doppelgreener

Magician

@Miniman Acceptable.

@Nyoze Night, I have plenty of. Mornings, on the other hand...

Nyoze

//Conjure Morning

:D

All right. I think I've got my dex build worked out, to just a few bits I'm not quite sure of...

Magician

1:14 AM

@Nyoze Yeah, no. It's already mine, so it rings hollow. Have you not noticed the sun shines a bit dimmer, the birds have stopped chirping?

trogdor

I noticed they stopped chirping because we never had them to begin with

Miniman

@Magician Excellent...So it begins.

Nyoze

@Magician Nope. My morning's are artificial, along with all the lighting in this place... It may as well be a dungeon in the sky :(

trogdor

well that isn't true, but we lost our birds before you stole any mornings here

Nyoze

Anyway.

Althis

1:17 AM

We still playing RFS tonight?

Nyoze

Do I want a Sylph for medium weapons, or a Goblin for +4 dex, and more flavour?

Depends on when Pixie finishes work, and I've got 2 hours of trainig sprung on me that I have to go to in about 45 minutes =\

Althis

I also get up early tomorrow, so I only have a couple of hours.

Nyoze

Everyone's gone :(

doppelgreener

(echoes: gone... gone... gone...)

@Nyoze play a robot, they are the life of the party

Nyoze

Haha.

I'd only be able to play a half-robot, and I don't think that's worth the 3 feats I would need :(

Wait a minute...

I could use the Half-Construct template which would be an extra 7RP for a +2 bonus on will saves...

That would take 2 feats, at 17rp...

Not sure if it's worth the feat cost, but amazing flavourwise...

It would so be worth the feats if I could convince my GM to let me use the template to increase the size to medium, but that wouldn't happen...

doppelgreener

1:34 AM

Oh, this is Pathfinder?

Nyoze

Yeah.

Hang on, let me just check my build so far...

doppelgreener

I am out of my depth giving character creation advice for that game then :P

Nyoze

Goblin Fighter at level 5 would have 6 feats...

Nope. I couldn't do it. Not viable till level 6 at the very least, and I want to get Snap Shot by then...

doppelgreener

1:51 AM

if you want to squabble and kill each others' characters, why not just play paranoia

Nyoze

What is Paranoia? I've never really looked into that before.

trogdor

It is a game about the PC's being paranoid murderhobos who have to listen to the All Knowing Friendly Computer (the GM

if they don't he/she will kill them

and probably will anyway

Nyoze

Sounds like fun :)

trogdor

also, because character death is so common, you can die 6 times with the same character and a clone will just pop up to replace em

Nyoze

Anyway, time for training :(

I'll flesh out my goblin fighter later.

Pixie

1:58 AM

I can, at some point, probably attempt to run RFS tonight. I am pretty awake... currently. xD

Althis

If you don't feel like, we will be fine. You can have your sleep.

Pixie

@Althis I'm fine right now! Just a warning that this can change. xD But for now, plans have not changed.

Althis

So, who is playing, and what room?

BESW

The Back Room: Live Tabletop Games

A space for online tabletop gaming.

1

Pixie

A bunch of regulars said they'd be interested in playing if they happen to be around while I run it, so the lineup's not set in stone. If Shalvenay and Nyoze aren't using the backroom, it can be there. (@BESW has ninja'd the link again. Thanks. xD)

Hmm. I know @Nyoze wanted to play though, but it looks like he got surprise training. I wonder when he'll be done.

Miniman

2:15 AM

in The Back Room: Live Tabletop Games, 1 hour ago, by Nyoze

Maybe in half an hour or so? Actually, closert to 3 hours, I've got some training coming up :\

So probably about 2 hours.

Shalvenay

@Pixie -- I'll be wrapping that little RP up soon I think :)

trogdor

@Pixie I think he said something about 2 and a half hours?

oh, he said 2 hours

so something around that amount of time assuming nothing comes up

Pixie

Ah, I see. How good is RFS at incorporating people later in the game? People's skills will have inevitably progressed, but would that impact fun for the newer player?

trogdor

we actually did that in my group for me

Pixie

@trogdor Did it go well?

trogdor

2:19 AM

I wouldn't say it is perfect, but you can give the person who comes in in the middle an average amount of exp that the group has

It went ok

I found it fun, but it was in a group of people who were playing face to face and all knew each other

it certainly isn't meant to just have people showing up in the middle of the game, but giving the right amount of exp to someone pretty much makes it work, I think

Miniman

One thing the "rules" didn't make clear for me - how much exp does it take to make dice sixes? Is it just 1 per die?

Shalvenay

@Pixie -- is there anything I should read before jumping into RFS btw?

Sandwich

Awww yes Roll for shoes

Pixie

@trogdor Ah, alright. I ask because considering starting a little early but wouldn't want to dampen the experience for Nyoze.

@Shalvenay Beyond the rules, nothing I'm aware of. One sec, I'll relink those.

Shalvenay

@Pixie -- also, keep in mind that I have to bail in about an hour and a half or so, and that time mark is pretty consistent for me on weeknights

Pixie

2:33 AM

Roll For Shoes.

trogdor

as long as someone remembers how to calculate exp, we can just give anyone coming late a decent amount that puts them on par with the group

Shalvenay

that is simple xD

Pixie

@Shalvenay Ah, okay.

trogdor

the main issue is that they will not have obtained some of their skills quite as organically as everyone else

Pixie

Well, before we do much else, I should ask: anyone have any ideas about what they want to play?

Sandwich

2:35 AM

Dunno, never played before

Miniman

Not really.

trogdor

I will start then

Shalvenay

@Pixie -- considering that RFS looks to be a "throw anything into the bowl" game when it comes to character selection -- I might just break out George the Friendly Dragon (aka N336DR)

(or is that N326DR? I can't remember :P)

Althis

I am up to anything, but really, we could use this giant bowl you talk off.

trogdor

I will be playing a pseudodragon

just cause that is what I have played before and I want to try it again

Althis

2:37 AM

Everybody throws a word in the bowl and we make up a setting together that fits the words.

Pixie

@BESW suggested getting character concepts and then developing a setting based around them. From that end, there's really no limits.

Sandwich

My bowl word is "Ghosts"

Pixie

But the issue I ran into with my usual group is that some of them weren't really sure what to do when told "do whatever you want" so let me know if you're having the same problem.

Althis

My bowl word is "Urban"

Shalvenay

my bowl word is Dragon

Althis

2:38 AM

You see, it is already getting something going.

Shalvenay

(and if anything, George is the epitome of an urban dragon, living next door to the LAX Class Bravo airspace)

Althis

(I would like to be the loser best friend of George's.)

Miniman

Is it okay to wait for a scenario and decide then?

Althis

(I am still going with my original goal of being the biggest loser around)

Pixie

@Miniman That is fine!

Althis

2:41 AM

We already have an urban fantasy thing going @Miniman, why don't you throw another word in the bowl and we see how it develops further?

Pixie

At this point, let's maybe move into the backroom.

Althis

Hey @BESW, how does one create a chatroom?

Sandwich

Like this!

Fuuuuuuuu...sion... HAAAAA!

trogdor

do you know how to get to the page where you can look up all the chat rooms?

you can create a chat room at the bottom right if you have enough rep

Sandwich

Roll For Shoes!

A room to play Roll for shoes in.

Nyoze

3:53 AM

:)

MC_Hambone

4:19 AM

So recently I have been watching/listening to some D&D podcasts and I have noticed something and I want your guys opinions on a theory I am developing... In my game and other games where players roll dice it seems like the players are concerned with hitting big numbers and they tend to not describe their attacks often or in great detail but in games where the DM makes all the rolls and just asks for their modifiers when they make actions it seems like the players spend more time (cont)

role playing and describing their actions narritively. Thats not to say there is ZERO RP in games where palyers roll the dice, just that in my experience it seems there is less... they are getting the rush from large numbers, where as in games where players dont roll it seems like they talk themselves up and describe cool actions to get that same emotional rush from getting high numbers on the dice

Sandwich

I'd say your assumption would be correct

In rules light games I normally have a different experience

MC_Hambone

do you think it would be a worth while experiment to perform if my players were willing?

they have wanting to RP more, but what they do betrays their vocal desires to RP

Sandwich

Try collecting all of their character sheets beforehand and having them describe their actions, then roll what they do yourself on their behalf

Its more work for you but should encourage more roleplaying

doppelgreener

@MC_Hambone yeah, i'd be really interested to hear what results you get

@Sandwich generally players would still want to have their character sheet handy (how else do they know what their spells and options are?), so really Hambone should just take copies

MC_Hambone

i might try that tomorrow if they are willing. Its been a few weeks now that various people have mentioned wanting to RP more, but they dont engage NPCs and they dont describe their attacks much. One thing I have noted is that when I play in my friends game (with mostly the same players) my experience as GM allows me to really tap into my character since i only have to worry about playing 1 guy

Althis

4:28 AM

@doppelgreener could you help us here over at RFS?

We are having a bit of trouble with the tiebreaking.

doppelgreener

@Althis what's up? ping me with a question there

MC_Hambone

and that seems to have a positive effect on other peoples RP. I rp and they rp in response

doppelgreener

@Althis but remember this is pixie's game :)

Grubermensch

I will caution you that some players feel very strongly that rolling of dice is an inalienable right of the player, and might take offense at GM-only rolling.

doppelgreener

she can call the shots too

MC_Hambone

4:31 AM

@Sandwich Like Doppel said, I need to let them keep the character sheets so they have a reference for their skills and stuff, I just would ask them to refrain from rolling and I would roll behind the screen and ask for their mods.

@Grubermensch thats something I have considered too. I wouldnt want to make it less fun for the players (and i dont think i would want to roll all the time for ever eand ever) Its more of an experiment since my players say they want to RP more yet they make no effort to do so. Except like I said when I am a player, my experience as a GM acting out many characters shine through in pretty good RPing when I only have to worry about 1 character. and the other players have responded in kind

when I RP, they RP too... but forsomereason when I am RPing NPCs in my games they seem to lose the spark of improv

Grubermensch

The difficulty often is that non-interesting is the default action in D&D.

So when you engage the other players with RP (as a player) you're raising the bar, and they'll be more likely to meet it.

As the GM, your RP is seen more as flavor text, and so amping it up doesn't translate into an expectation for player RP.

In essence, what the GM rolling the dice accomplishes is that the players now have to use RP to ask for narrative permission to make a roll, rather than just making the roll themselves whenever they feel like it.

MC_Hambone

interesting points.... maybe once the GM of the game i play in gets more experience under his belt he'll be the star RP player in my games and inspire it in others?

roll when they feel like it

that is apt too often they make rolls for things that they dont need to roll for

Grubermensch

Having a co-conspirator amongst the players can do wonders for your game.

Sandwich

Or a Co-GM Player

doppelgreener

@MC_Hambone "Its more of an experiment since my players say they want to RP more yet they make no effort to do so." - What do you spend the majority of your time on in each session? If you break your time down into, say, combat, meeting other people, exploration, etc, what seem to be the major time consumers?

MC_Hambone

4:40 AM

Combat takes up the most time. with 6 players at the table and a crunchy system it can be kinda slow

Grubermensch

In D&D often the only way for the players to demonstrate agency is by rolling dice (paradoxically). If this is the case, it's no wonder that your players are looking for opportunities to do so. By taking the dice mechanics out of the picture, you force the players to find some other ways of expressing agency.

doppelgreener

@MC_Hambone My friends and I found that combat was kind of a boring slogfest, and the funnest parts we could actually roleplay in were outside combat. (But counteracting this is that D&D distributes its mechanical support almost entirely toward combat, as you know.) When your players say they want more opportunity to roleplay, they may also enjoy more focus spent outside combats, or for combats to run differently.

When Gimli and Legolas and Aragorn are hacking through orcs, that's cool, but we don't focus on it for more than a few minutes. From a game treatment: most of their roleplaying is how they win, and they're awesome, and then they move on and keep roleplaying in other ways.

When combat extends for an hour, it's hard to keep roleplaying through "I use my melee attack" and "I use this awesome spell, oh it misses and does some half damage to that other guy"

Althis

And sometimes you just want to swing your sword and be done.

Sandwich

@MC_Hambone This would actually be a great question

MC_Hambone

i could maybe make them RP their short rests for a good amount of time maybe? Considering your points tho, I am starting to think they are all talk and no substance because even when I give them opportunities in shops buy supplies to engage with shop keeps they generally jus tget annoyed that they cant just buy stuff like at walmart. but maybe haggling just inst their style... i dunno

Grubermensch

4:47 AM

If you and your players exclusively play D&D, you might also get some mileage out of one-shotting another system that is more supportive of RP.

a computing pun

@doppelgreener And even a short combat (or a long but consistently fun and cool combat) offers very different (and often, much more narrow) roleplaying opportunities than social interaction does. The way a person fights can reveal much about their character, true. But it can only reveal so much.

MC_Hambone

@Sandwich hmmm given the varies options i am seeing here I am thinking this is more of a discussion than a question with 1 correct answer

Grubermensch

@MC_Hambone Again, some part of this is that D&D mechanically doesn't support this. The players want to do things, and D&D doesn't define these types of actions, so they automatically get ignored.

MC_Hambone

@Grubermensch interesting you say that, as they do seem to RP a little bit more in our DC Adventures game (uses Mutants and Masterminds Rules)

a computing pun

@MC_Hambone And part of this is also that, well, shopping is boring. If you're showing up to a blacksmith's shop to buy a new +1 sword, you want to get a +1 sword, not talk to the blacksmith about the weather.

Grubermensch

4:50 AM

@MC_Hambone I've never played M&M, but that seems pretty telling. It's possible that you'd all get more enjoyment out of a different system than D&D.

Magician

@acomputingpun This. It could be fun to roleplay routine interactions, but it's usually more fun to roleplay dramatic events. And for dramatic events you need dramatic characters.

doppelgreener

@MC_Hambone "make them RP their rests" might be a chore - what you might want to look for is where they do enjoy roleplaying

MC_Hambone

@acomputingpun I would agree with this. while I dont expect them to describe every swing with vivid detail theres a difference between "I roll a 15 for 12 damage if it hits" and periodically doing something more flashy with your description. my players seem to let the attacks land or miss as they please. Where as I will describe me thrusting my longsword into a enemies stomach and twisting the blade

doppelgreener

like, when and where do they reach their roleplaying peaks? can you give them more situations like that? in combat, are they ok near the beginning?

Grubermensch

14

Q: Techniques to improvise and run interesting social and mundane scenes

Last session (I GM Traveller, a hard science fiction rpg) I realized my lack of skills when I found myself willing to spend some minutes in playing a scene involved a 3 years old child causing trouble while in the spaceship and getting measles and passing it to all the spaceship crew. It went th...

Sandwich

4:52 AM

22

A: Is the "+1" in "Long Sword +1" for OOC use only?

Whichever you prefer. Typically when discussing items after they have been identified the enhancement bonus of a weapon is completely dependent on whether or not your group would find mentioning the numbers to be atmosphere-breaking and unwanted. If you're speaking to a character after they ha...

And theres some Alternative definitions for common D&D Enchantment fluff

a computing pun

Sure, a scene of the character interacting with a random shopkeeper can also reveal stuff about their personality. But it doesn't have to? If we were reading a book, we wouldn't feel deprived if the author wrote "and on tuesday they went shopping for new armor and returned with a shiny new set" rather than narrating out the blacksmith dialog line-by-line.

Magician

I found that there's nothing that kills the game's tempo faster than telling the group to just sit there and roleplay their characters for a bit. It's awkward to be put on the spot like that, to have to come up with things to say in the voice of a character you're not really used to. Whereas if something happens that they have to respond to, players immediately have something to play off.

Grubermensch

@MC_Hambone Which edition of D&D are you playing, incidentally?

MC_Hambone

@acomputingpun this is true, and i dont try to engage them like that all the time, only if they want something specific and hard to find... when they go to a city and say "Can i drop my armor off to get mended" i do that OOC, but when the bard was dying from mummy curse and the druid went to see if the alchemist could brew a potion to save him, I RP'd a slightly frazzled and slightly crazy old wizard who works as an alchemist in his retirement from adventuring... and the players werent engaging

@Grubermensch 5th... which has personality traits right on the ding dang char sheet

Grubermensch

Are you playing into those traits?

MC_Hambone

4:58 AM

I try to as best I can. admittedly it can be hard when you have 6 people asking 6 different questions in rapid succession

Grubermensch

You can't just expect the players to carry them. Some will, but it's not very common. You should find opportunities to twist them into knots, and then point this out to players. Mechanically you can give Inspiration to reward players accepting these complications.

How much do your adventure plots play off of the characters' traits?

MC_Hambone

I am certainly part of the problem, but I feel frustrated that I dont see my players putting worth an effort to RP even tho they say they want to engage... maybe i need to talk to them about what they define as RP and how they want to implement it

@Grubermensch mostly the bonds sine we are playing the Tyranny of Dragons and they all took bonds from the first adventure book.

Grubermensch

Ah, a published adventure makes this a little harder to work with.

An incentive that you can try is doling out Inspiration more liberally as a reward for roleplaying.

MC_Hambone

I think tomorrow I am gonna talk to them about what they mean when they say they wanna RP since when I try to engage them in ways I would RP in games it seems to not work. Then once I know how, when and why they wanna RP i can try to play to those requests and see if it changes anything.

doppelgreener

@MC_Hambone good idea

Grubermensch

5:04 AM

Other people in this room have philosophical objections to that strategy, but I've seen it work very well to increase the level of roleplaying.

MC_Hambone

But at the end of the day they always seem to walk away laughing and seemingly enjoying themselves, so it might not matter in the end XD

doppelgreener

one of your solutions to the problem might also be "hey let's play another game which focuses on the kinds of things we find fun", which is what my group did

@MC_Hambone then you are succeeding :)

MC_Hambone

as i sit here and think about it, they tend to engage with NPCs that are EXTREMELY strange or annoying. Like this crazy old mage who wouldnt anser them with a straight answer about the strange magical tower on the edge of town... he would constantly appear behind them and taunt them during the magical maze that protected the Tower... they hated him and they RP'd it well

Sandwich

@MC_Hambone you can also offer substantial XP rewards for staying in character

Grubermensch

True dat. As GMs we can often get sucked into thinking a game is not as good as it could theoretically be, and ignore the fact that everyone at the table is having a great time, which is all that really counts.

Magician

5:07 AM

@Sandwich That's dangerously close to XP rewards for Good Roleplaying, as opposed to Bad Roleplaying, as determined by the benevolent tyrant GM.

MC_Hambone

moving forward I will be leveling them based on XP... unfortuneatly the game i am running now was supposed to last 2 semesters of university and so I leveled them after completing plot points

Grubermensch

@MC_Hambone If your goal is to encourage roleplaying, I would recommend against leveling based on XP.

MC_Hambone

we are nearign the end of the Rise of Tiamat, so this is mostly stuff for when we play other RPGs or possible D&D if we play the elemental chaos or whatever the new adventure for 5e is

@Grubermensch can you elaborate as to why? I figured givng XP makes it longer of a game and longer game means more time to RP

Magician

Personally, I'd recommend against using XP at all, but that's a matter of personal preference.

Grubermensch

In D&D XP is almost entirely related to combat. This means the best thing your players can do is fight things. This means they will want to fight things instead of roleplay.

4

Miniman

5:12 AM

@Grubermensch This +1000000

MC_Hambone

i can dig it

Grubermensch

Occasionally I have been known to speak the truth.

MC_Hambone

and i prefer not givnig xp anyway... too much book keeping for my lazy ass

Grubermensch

I would also recommend against published adventures because they will tend to fall into the major tropes of D&D.

If you want to have a series of adventures that are compelling to your characters' individual traits, you're going to have to tailor the experience to them.

a computing pun

Personally I don't have a huge regard for published adventures, but it is generally possible to adapt them to individual characters - often surprisingly well and with comparatively little effort.

MC_Hambone

5:17 AM

I lean towards published adventures due to high courseload

Grubermensch

I think I meant published campaigns, there. Those would seem to be rather harder to tailor.

MC_Hambone

also I wrote "the rise of tiamat" in 2006... tried playing it twice and then gave in and bought the campaign when 5e was released lol

Grubermensch

Standalone adventures I guess would not be so bad.

a computing pun

I'll admit I've never actually played or run a published campaign.

and so can't really comment on their comparative adaptability

MC_Hambone

I have only run Tyranny of Dragons, and they actually leave alot of stuff up to you to fill in

Grubermensch

5:20 AM

I am playing in the Stack's run of Tyranny of Dragons right now, and my experience as a player has definitely been that the plot does not really bend to the characters

MC_Hambone

Thats definitely true... but if you use the Same Page Tool, part of Session zero is agreeing upon what is expected from the players. in a game where the quest is "You are heroes setting out to save the world" the plot is the main thing... stopping tiamat and the players are supposed to be agents acting accordingly

Grubermensch

I've done some, but it's been very much me seeking out the opportunities, it's felt completely orthogonal to the plot, and it takes a lot of effort with little payoff.

MC_Hambone

and when i asked them what they wanted from D&D they said "We want to kill dragons and explore dungeons" and now that we are 3-4 sessions from finishing they are wanting to RP more (which i think is natural since this was some peopels first campaigns... they were focus on the rules until now and now that they know the rules want to branch out)

Grubermensch

That's also entirely legitimate, and you might find the game running very differently when it is not the introductory campaign.

One thing that I would claim ToD does a poor job of is character motivation.

doppelgreener

@MC_Hambone "we want to kill dragons and explore dungeons" doesn't necessarily translate to "we want to do it D&D's way"

which is to say, with hour-long slogfests and so on

they might just want to be big damn hero explorers

Grubermensch

5:28 AM

The bonds are supposed to represent this, but in order for it to work, the characters have to be able to take meaningful steps towards their goals (ideally every session). I have not really seen this happen.

So one simple thing you can do is capture the characters' motivations, and when you prep a session, ask yourself "How does each character advance their motivation in this session?" If you can say something about that for at least half of the characters, it's going to give them an opportunity to roleplay into it.

@doppelgreener This is the biggest hoodwink that has been pulled over the D&D community.

MC_Hambone

still, we had agreed to play the campaign and they agreed that they would work towards the goal of preventing tiamat. so the ridigity of a D&D published Campaign was kinda agreed upon since I told them upfront I dont have time to write material for the game each week

Grubermensch

If prep time is a big constraint for you I highly encourage choosing a system that requires less.

5

MC_Hambone

in our DC comic game its easier to ad lib games with little to no prep given the superhero genre includes a revolving door of vililians... some characters have arch nemesis' but in the comics they dont only fight the arch nemesis.

so i can ad lib natural disaster bank heists, muggings, etc etc since they dont all have to connect back to a big web o' plot

but you guys have definitely given me some great suggestions that i plan on bringing up at game tomorrow.

@Grubermensch I love this idea! because I am lazy and also pressed for time. i am an art student and working on art can take many many many hours, and while i dont like think so... school is more important than D&D. Luckily its summer vacation right now and I have been making notes for a few big events in the DC game that I want to play out next school year when we finish Tiamat (which hopefullly will be in a month or so if we can play each week)

Sandwich

Roll for shoes

MC_Hambone

/roll 1d20

XD

"result 5... you find a pair of old crocs filled with mud

Grubermensch

5:41 AM

Fate Core is excellent for this. It encourages a prep philosophy that assumes your players will dash off in unexpected directions almost immediately. Your role is to set up a bunch of tensions and let the players sort it out.

a computing pun

@MC_Hambone Saying "well, the game isn't what they want, but they agreed to it at the beginning so they should just deal with it" is kind of a poor way to make an excuse for the fact that the game isn't what they want. But that said, it sounds more like what they want has changed than anything else?

MC_Hambone

@acomputingpun they have fun while playing but recently all but 2 players have approached me seperately saying they want more RP... so I try to give them stuff to interact with but it seems to go largely ignored.

doppelgreener

my players and I were motivated to go from D&D 4e to Fate Core for a few reasons related to what you're describing: (a) it treats noncombat situations with the same level of mechanical depth as combat situations. (b) combat can actually be fairly quick and exciting and descriptive, it isn't "pick your move from this list and use it." (c) you win more. (d) there's more drama. (e) PREP CAN BE NONEXISTENT.

MC_Hambone

like i said earlier, i need to discuss what they mean by "more RP" because they might be thinking differently than me

doppelgreener

I had a full time job and no time for 4e's level of prep, especially when I preferred to keep it improv-heavy because what my players wanted to show me was always cooler.

MC_Hambone

5:46 AM

I have looked at Fate via the dresden files RPG... maybe thats not a good metric but i wasn't overly excited by it

I think the trying different systems thing is a good idea tho. and they tend do do more in character stuff in the DC game

doppelgreener

@MC_Hambone dresden RPG is pretty crunchy

it's not representative of Fate Core at least

which is here: fate-srd.com/node/98

MC_Hambone

@doppelgreener i'll take a look at Fate Core then and see what its all about

a computing pun

@MC_Hambone yeah, it's also fairly heavily concerned with and interlinked with the DF setting.

Grubermensch

Even if you don't play Fate Core, there are a lot of good ideas about storytelling in a game that can be useful to have in mind when running other systems.

doppelgreener

@Grubermensch yarp

MC_Hambone

5:50 AM

I have lots of games I wanna try. Exodus (which was going to be the Fallout RPG, and me and my players love the fallout games), Space Ship Zero (a campy 1950s sci fi theme) All Flesh Must Be Eaten (zombie apoc) and Gamma World sicne i have the start set for it. maybe one of those games will be a better fit for the group when i find out what they mean by RP and if they really want to RP or not XD

but this convo has been helpful, I am gonna head out for a bit. ttyl guys and thanks for the discussion :D

Dyndrilliac

@SevenSidedDie Any further discussion regarding my answer to this question should be moved to chat.

doppelgreener

@Dyndrilliac Not this chat preferably, since we're in the middle of a conversation. Would you like to create a discussion room and invite him there?

I found out the other day you can do that by visiting someone's chat profile, there's a "start a new room with this user" button.

Miniman

@doppelgreener Huh, did not know.

Dyndrilliac

@doppelgreener Perhaps. My initial intent was to wait and see if he actually wanted to continue discussion first. No point making the room if he considers the matter closed.

Thanks for the tip though :)

doppelgreener

@Dyndrilliac Sure. He won't receive this particular ping from you for another 10-15 minutes (seems to take that long for unnoticed pings to turn into a main site notification)

Alternately though you can create that discussion room and ping him immediately in comments with it.

Dyndrilliac

6:06 AM

@doppelgreener Done :)

@Miniman I noticed you had commented on my answer as well. You're of course welcome to join the discussion as well. I welcome everyone's input.

Miniman

@Dyndrilliac I was mostly interested to see the arguments, I'm really not sure what the answer is here

doppelgreener

i was observing but like

this is a contentious discussion about how to interpret 5e's rules as written

^ entirely relevant to going into such a situation

5e's RAW seems to have been approached simultaneously with careful attention and an attitude of "eh, they'll figure it out"

Magician

7:29 AM

Can a werebear wear armor? Were werebear to wear armor, would it tear? Would a werebear need to bear armor it normally wears? Bearing werebears in mind, can bear armor be made, or shall they fight bare?

Miniman

@Magician And where would a werebear bear armor if it did not wear it?

Magician

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Miniman

@Magician You mean werebear-bearable, right?

Magician

@Miniman Bearably wearable by werebears, yes.

BESW

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Magician

7:38 AM

But is barewear werebearwearable?

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Miniman

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BESW

@SPArchaeologist [gaaaaaasp]

Sandwich

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BESW

@Sandwich It's barely software at all?

@MC_Hambone Not, perhaps, actionable or even entirely relephant, but--I've lately been toying with the idea that mechanics with built-in narratives have a retardant effect on players adding their own narrative flair.

lisardggY

7:47 AM

...and it seems I came in to work today without my laptop's power cable.

So I have... let's see.. about two hours of juice to work with.

BESW

IE, "I cast fireball" is less tempting to elaborate on than "I roll an Attack action using the Shoot skill," and neither is as tempting as a system which just says "Roll a d6 for everything you do."

@lisardggY We are honoured you've chosen to spend of that precious workjuice on us.

lisardggY

@BESW Hey, it's better than working.

@BESW I'm not sure I agree. My feelings is that when mechanics make no distinction between different sorts of actions, they're too disassociated from the game.

BESW

@lisardggY It's still something I'm toying around with.

There are nuances and variations to work out before it's a practicable theory.

I think Lasers & Feelings may be a useful case study.

lisardggY

Ok, I'm thinking it over and can see several variations. For instance, I like Fate's relatively simple "try to do something" mechanics, but I disliked 4e's reduction of all class's combat mechanics to a single unified format.

I think where this is leading me is that when mechanics are narrative, I like them abstract and unencumbered. But when they're more in-universe/gamist, I like them to actually represent the action that's performed.

BESW

Does this influence your tendency to attach your own flair to an action rather than rely on the provided flavour?

lisardggY

7:54 AM

@BESW I'm not sure. From my experience, concrete in-world mechancics tend to discourage personal flavor (a fireball, for instance, is a fireball, and RAW enthusiasts might resist changing any of the spell's even cosmetic paramters).

Conversely, generic systems like the old HEROsystem let you reskin "attack" to whatever fits your character.

BESW

Yes, that's my experience as well--but more than that, it tends to even discourage describing how that fireball is different from the last one you threw.

lisardggY

true, and even more noticeable with melee attacks, which have always been d20's weak point.

Nyoze

I've always found that Melee attacks are the easiest to flavour... I guess that's coming from a freeform background where I didn't have a D20 to rely on whether I hit or not.

lisardggY

I think the reskin approach is a good compromise. You get to add your own flavor, but you do so at character creation/advancement, not ongoing play. So your character sheet says "Magma Fusion Core Blast", not "Energy Attack (Ranged)", even though it's based on that.

BESW

@Nyoze Aye, they are, but in my personal experience players have a tendency to quickly reduce the effort they put into improvised flavour with such mechanics.

Nyoze

7:58 AM

I mean, It's easy to say "I swing my sword at the goblin", but i've always been along the lines of "I jump back and look for an opening, before deftly darting in to slash at the goblins exposed neck"

lisardggY

@Nyoze The problem with melee attacks in d20s is that they're a lot less exciting than magic, for instance. It's easier to give more flavor to spells because each spell is cast a lot less often, and has a larger effect. But when you swing your sword every round, it gets tiresome.

Nyoze

@BESW But yeah, especailly over a tabletop compared to online, It's simply easier and faster to say attack when combat takes so long anyway.

BESW

Yar.

It's also interesting to note how different resolution patterns influence narrative improv.

Nyoze

@lisardggY A fireball is a fireball is a fireball. But A sword can slash or stab or block or parry or... There's so many different ways to flavour it.

BESW

In a system like d20 where "what you do" is something you declare, and "what results" is the outcome, you get a very different narrative style than in systems like Fate where "What you're trying to do" is the declaration and "what actually happens" is the outcome.

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