TRPG General Chat - 2014-11-25 (page 3 of 3)

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Joshua Aslan Smith

5:00 PM

@Molot The question is closed but it can be reopened after edits (either by yourself or by another user with enough rep and then approved by other users with enough rep) are made by the community voting to re-open the question in the same way they voted to close it.

@Metool You know that we are talking about a different question than the construct one, right?

@Mourdos Click the grey arrow on my post.

Was just about to delete my post :P

Also, I want the question that gave me +110 rep to open so I can get more. xD

Cya later

Cya, I guess.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@waxeagle Ive just got today and then a half day tomorrow then off the rest of the week

you traveling at all?

@Grubermensch @waxeagle did we level, I assume we didnt.

5:20 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith I thought we did. Also no session this week, remember.

Joshua Aslan Smith

I know that

@Grubermensch I just cant remember IM 50/50 both ways, its shrodingers cat of D&D post session

Is there any value in creating a meta question to discuss the validity of the 'are humans living creatures' question?

or has it been done to death in chat?

I dunno about a meta-question, but it seems like a perfectly valid question to me.

but there is clearly disagreement

Joshua Aslan Smith

@Phil go for it if you so desire

@AgentPaper his core question is valid, but hes got other stuff in the qustion that completely makes it non-valid (asking for formulaic logic)

Questions must be artifacts themselves because all comments are destroyed eventually

Hence me voting to close until the edits I suggested to him in chat get made by him or another user

5:37 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith yes, you ddi

Joshua Aslan Smith

OH MANGH

Formal logic seems like a perfectly fine thing to ask for when you're specifically asking for RAW.

meh, having read the chat where it was discussed, I'm not sure a meta-q would solve anything

Joshua Aslan Smith

@AgentPaper raw is raw

formulaic logic is a completely unnecessary and external trapping

@Phil yeah I mean I left because it was mostly a huge difference in vision on the issue

But if it uses arbitrary assumptions, then it's not really RAW anymore, it's RAI with your rationalization tacked on.

5:39 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith indeed, but it feels like it should be something that meta can resolve, and it troubles me that I don't think it will

Joshua Aslan Smith

all the people who were like "its fine as is" could not be made to even comprehend the view of those who like myself felt there were issues that needed to be fixed before it could be a proper question

@AgentPaper formulaic logic as specifically called out is not required to answer the question one way or another.

What exactly do you mean by formulaic logic?

I think we might be thinking of different things.

To me, it basically sounds like he's calling out the answer as using faulty logic, which it is.

Joshua Aslan Smith

hmm I need to find the original version I just forgot how to view edit history

Actually, I don't see any referene to formulaic logic at all, just "formal logic"

Joshua Aslan Smith

ah here we go, I need to click on the last edited by timestamp

@AgentPaper you dont have the rep to see the first draft of the question

5:45 PM

I was looking at the comments.

Joshua Aslan Smith

basically it had a paragraph asking for formal mathematical logic with a like to mathematical logic on wikipedia

That was a huge red flag for stuff outside our scope

Also the question said "This question has no purpose related to any actual game I play." originally

which was flag number 2

both have now been edited out by community edits

I just voted to reopen the question

you have to understand all of those comments will be deleted if not today than next week

Comments operate as a temporary space to improve questions and answers

Yeah, I was just reading them to figure out why the question was closed.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@AgentPaper let me know if you can see this

rpg.stackexchange.com/posts/51349/revisions

I think you might have the rep, since you can access review queses

Yeah, I can see that.

Joshua Aslan Smith

there so scroll to bottom for original question

5:52 PM

He still only refers to "formal logic", which doesn't actually mean anything.

There are various types of formal logic, but "formal logic" itself doesn't mean anything specific.

So really it's just a poorly worded way of asking for logical answers.

Joshua Aslan Smith

to access that page for any question just click on "edit by USERNAME at TIMESTAMP" and it will take you to the revision history

@AgentPaper Hence voting to close

Calling for a mathematical proof using the rules is a bit outside of scope I think

For what? It still wasn't off-topic, just poorly written.

I don't see any reference to mathematical proof still, just formal logic

Joshua Aslan Smith

@AgentPaper mathematical proofs are off topic

Formal logic is in brackets meaning its an html link and the link at the bottom takes you to the wikipedia page for mathematical logic

I VTC'd as off topic. Others may have VTC'd as too broad or unclear

Ah, couldn't see the link because of the green highlighting

Joshua Aslan Smith

The line "This question has no purpose related to any actual game I play." was also very problematic as SE has a mandate of "real answers to real questions" and rpg.se has a long history with people asking a lot of theorycrafting style questions which dont belong here (Forums are a better fit for that sort of thing)

6:12 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith Edit has been made

Joshua Aslan Smith

6:38 PM

@waxeagle I am face palming at darkness being a thing monks get yet monks get no real way to see through the darkness (rogues do though lol)

Yeah, that is a bit odd.

Could always take a warlock dip, I guess

@JoshuaAslanSmith that is weird. Then again more races than not have some kind of darkvision

Are there any 4th ed played on right now? I have a weird question that I don't think would be appropriate on the main site.

...nevermind

@DuckTapeAl josh and I both are

Do you know if there's any way of reading someone's mind? Like their surface thoughts?

Not telepathy, which I understand is a kind of speech, but listening to what a person this currently thinking.

6:47 PM

@waxeagle Darkness specifically blocks Darkvision. You need something like Devil's Sight from Warlock to see through it.

@AgentPaper yeah, realized that when I was reading josh's question

@DuckTapeAl I'm looking, I can't think if anything right off hand (which makes sense, there isn't a mechanical model for it)

@waxeagle I wouldn't be even a little surprised if there isn't any way to do it, given how rules-centric 4e's systems are.

@DuckTapeAl the ardent's Unshakable Mind power has flavor text about reading thoughts, but it doesn't actually do that (well, it sort of does, but the effect is that you know it's location and that cover/concealment don't help the target).

ESP medallion does similar

Joshua Aslan Smith

@waxeagle darkness is a magical darkness that darkvision does not pierce

The reason that I ask is that by a super-strict reading of the RAW, I'm pretty sure you can still think when you're dead.

6:53 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith yep

@DuckTapeAl yeah.....(though more importantly, dead is never defined as a condition at all)

Joshua Aslan Smith

@DuckTapeAl Dead or dying?

Dead.

it's sort of assumed folks understand dead is final. But there are tones of references in the rules to death/dead etc. But dead is never actually defined

Joshua Aslan Smith

yeah are you the gm or the player?

Someone pointed out to me that 3.5 doesn't actually say that you can't act while you are dead, so I wanted to see what 4th ed said about being dead.

6:55 PM

(we talked about this a long while ago)

4th ed is better about it than 3rd, at least, since it actually specifies that you can't act.

And it specifies that you can't speak, which means that telepathy is out.

@JoshuaAslanSmith Neither. I'm the guy who is interested in the RAW of how games define death, and how it's different than reality.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@DuckTapeAl I would say maybe with some serious arcana you could sort of get an image of the last thought of that person's mind but only for a very short time

You start taking permanent brain damage at 10 minutes without oxygen to the brain right?

See, that's all relating to actual death. If I were playing in a game, I wouldn't be doing any of this,

Because it's ridiculous.

But theorycrafting about the strict raw is interesting to me.

Joshua Aslan Smith

4e is very raw, but there are distinct areas it is intentionally vague/does not comment on by design

I'm aware.

Joshua Aslan Smith

6:59 PM

because they believe those should just be handled via RP

which I concur with

trying to avoid all those pitraps of 3.5

@waxeagle I mean maybe my assumptions are just wrong expecting a 4e style drow darkness ability

DMG has rules for building a castle and getting lost while drunk. My life is complete.

Howdy.

@AgentPaper Which DMG?

The 5e one. A new preview just came out.

Was in the chat feed.

enworld.org/forum/…

Oh, ha.

Looking forward to it Friday.

I have it pre-ordered at the local core store.

Nice.

7:12 PM

fun :). I've got it preordered from amazon so I have to wait the 9 days (or maybe 8? hopes)

Notable: Being higher level makes you less likely to be arrested or robbed while carousing, but more likely to win it big while gambling.

not much though

Joshua Aslan Smith

pure silliness

(at least on a per level basis...outcomes get much better as you get much higher level)

ok, im gonna go deal with a turkey, make crock pot mac-n-cheese, then go get a new phone. See y'all later

Joshua Aslan Smith

BAI

7:15 PM

Anyone remember what the costs are of a wealthy lifestyle? I'm AFB right now.

I want to calculate the average income per level of carousing.

Is it in the Basic rules? I can look it up there.

Wealthy is 4 gp/day.

Thanks.

> Wretched —
Squalid 1 sp
Poor 2 sp
Modest 1 gp
Comfortable 2 gp
Wealthy 4 gp
Aristocratic 10 gp minimum

Basic rules p. 53.

Why is the debate room called “Not a bar”?

Joshua Aslan Smith

because I joking said we needed a bar to have a beer/cocktail at and discuss these things away from main chat

so BESW or Wax (I forget who created it) jokingly called it "Not a bar, but plays one on TV..."

Hah! Carousing earns you an average of ~10.3gp even at level 1!

And it only goes up from there, to a total of 43.8 at level 20!

Joshua Aslan Smith

7:30 PM

I much perfer the Dungeonworld version where you have to spend money

but you get story hooks out of it

That's including the money you spent on the wealthy lifestyle, plus your chance of being arrested and paying off the 10gp bail or being robbed for an average of 52.5 gold.

@JoshuaAslanSmith It does cost money, but you also have a chance of winning money from gambling, which more than off-sets the costs.

Wait, just realized I didn't calculate the odds of winning at gambling right. It's actually higher than I thought. One sec.

Ah, only slightly though. 11.5gp per day at level 1 to 45gp per day at level 20.

Ha, I love the description of carousing.

Joshua Aslan Smith

For comparison

Carouse

When you return triumphant and throw a big party, spend 100 coins and roll +1 for every extra 100 coins spent. ✴On a 10+, choose 3. ✴On a 7–9, choose 1. ✴On a miss, you still choose one, but things get really out of hand (the GM will say how).

You befriend a useful NPC.
You hear rumors of an opportunity.
You gain useful information.
You are not entangled, ensorcelled, or tricked.

You can only carouse when you return triumphant. That’s what draws the crowd of revelers to surround adventurers as they celebrate their latest haul. If you don’t proclaim your success or your failure, t…

@AgentPaper The carousing rules don’t seem to specify the length of the downtime. So the cost depends on how long you spend carousing.

Joshua Aslan Smith

though I guess if you dont know dungeonworlds core mechanic that might not have any meaning

7:38 PM

True. I assumed carousing once per day. That's OK, though, you can just spend every other day carousing, and use your profits to maintain an Aristocratic lifestyle on the days you're not.

@JoshuaAslanSmith Ha, I love the “You are not entangled, encorcelled, or tricked” and the implications thereof.

Joshua Aslan Smith

respecially on a 6 or less, I love the hard choices dungeonworld forces

@AgentPaper That would be a good reason for the DM to take the “or you choose” option, instead of rolling the dice.

Like, going out gambling again just after becoming the stuff of local legend might be a good reason for somebody to rob you. Or the gambling house to pay off the gendarmerie.

You can only take the house for a fortune so many times before you make an enemy and they accuse you of cheating.

Oh hey, this article has previous previews linked. Handy. I had only seen the ones at Extra Life.

Ah, cool. Some in there I missed as well.

Also, on carousing, even if you need to spend a week each time, you still make an average of 2gp per week while carousing.

If it takes a month, though, then you start losing money, fast. It's not until level 14 that you start making a profit again, and even at level 20 you only make 21.8gp per month.

> Periods
of downtime can vary in duration, but each downtime
activity requires a certain number of days to complete
before you gain any benefit, and at least 8 hours of each
day must be spent on the downtime activity for the day
to count. The days do not need to be consecutive. If you
have more than the minimum amount of days to spend,
you can keep doing the same thing for a longer period
of time, or switch to a new downtime activity.

Interesting that carousing does not actually list a minimum number of days.

However, this rule shows that the every-other-day trick wouldn’t work.

As downtime activity is per-downtime rather than per-day.

7:52 PM

It says you can switch to a new downtime activity, though, so supposedly you can spend the minimum amount of time (1 day, 7 days, whatever), switch, spend a day living a normal life, then switch again, etc.

As a personal houserule, I'd allow carousing over multiple days, but subtract 1 from the roll for each previous day spent.

So, you can keep going, but you're more and more likely to run into trouble.

And if you roll a 0 or lower, well... Then I make my special scary DM face.

Really though, I don't think it's a big problem that you can make money from carousing. If anything, it makes it more likely that the players do it more, and thus more likely to his the plot-hook stuff like the romance result or making an enemy of someone.

Better than, "I spend two months working as a chandler and make 300gp or whatever. Ok, on to the next dungeon!"

Oh I like the carousing, I just think it’s gaming the system in a bad way to break carousing up into little pieces to maximize profit.

Fair enough. I read that as the intended way of using it, though. So YMMV.

1 week per roll seems like a decent compromise, though.

I think Adventurer’s League breaks down downtime by weeks.

Which also works well with the results like the whirlwind romance, or being jailed for the last 1d4 days of the period.

Makes sense. In that case your income is roughly 2*level gold per week.

Yeah, and it’s a handy chunk of time for dealing with everyone’s downtime.

A few years ago, I encouraged players to take extended downtime.

Adventures were once per season, with no time pressure (like cliffhangers) between them.

So that the players could feel safe in actually taking the downtime, instead of running off to do new things.

I forget how long the campaign lasted.

But it meant that people actually had time to craft and build things.

8:20 PM

The diseases and poisons in this preview look pretty interesting.

I definitely want to make a swamp infected with Sight Rot, and Midnight Tears are perfect for poisoning someone with a food taster.

Joshua Aslan Smith

the poison table further reinforces my Witcher as a Ranger PC idea

I should just write up the Class though

8:49 PM

Interesting that the Magic Item Table puts Universal Solvent and Sovereign Glue on the same level as 9th-level spell scrolls.

9:31 PM

It appears that I have slept through RAWgeddon.

As it turns out, humans are, in fact, living creatures.

9

[citation provided]

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Mołot Play Ars Magica. Speaking as a Philosopher (with the hat and everything) it can happily consume all excess mental academicese at the table, up to and including going to the library, getting an ILL'd book on the history of explosives, and citing it as part of a literature review on the nature of an explosion in the Aristotelian paradigm.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton [wave] While looking to see if there were any of @Magician's blog links which should be updated, I found this.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

heyyy, that one

yeah, that turned into my paper

9:39 PM

So maybe you can fix the "link to be inserted" bit?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

damnit, laptop out of charge

ping me in a comment so it's persistent?

Aight.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

be back later

ttfn

@BraddSzonye @Lord_Gareth named it; it's apparently a rather specific reference to something I'm unfamiliar with.

@molot comments purged ;)

@BraddSzonye you know those toothpaste commercials where an actor says "I'm not a dentist, but I play one on TV"? Well, we had a conversation we wanted to take place in a bar, but we had no bars.

10:53 PM

45

Q: How do I draw a pair of buttocks?

I'm trying to develop a function which 3D plot would have a buttocks like shape. Several days of searching the web and a dozen my of own attempts to solve the issue have brought nothing but two pitiful formulas below. They have some resemblance to the shape I want, though not quie. Could you h...

6

And the Creative Waste of Time award goes to. . . .

:)

Dat formula.

Anyone know if there's been a question about whether wild shape and unarmored defense stack?

11:10 PM

@AgentPaper Don't think so.

We've had a few about Wild Shape, but that hasn't been covered.

Hm. Well, I'll wait on it, since I'm AFB and there might be a very simple answer to it.

@AgentPaper I'm pretty sure it's another case of changing base AC calculation, but I'm also AFB, so I can't prove it.

Yeah probably. I just really like the idea of a raging Bearbarian.

A Shadow Wolf Monk would also be pretty sweet.

Both cool ideas, and I don't think there's anything stopping you from raging while Wild Shape-d.

I don't think you can get any monk benefits while Wild Shape-d though.

11:29 PM

0

Q: Clash of Kings - How to defeat a level 7 Lava Giant

My kingdom is currently at level 8. And I can defeat level 6 creatures, but struggle tremendously against a level 7 lava giant. What must I do to easily destroy them? thanks

Well, that's an off topic question if I've ever seen one.

@AgentPaper You do not want glue dispelled.

What now?

Whoot, hit rep cap for the first time, I think

Ah. I meant that the table puts them at the same rarity.

I thought it was same caster level.

I should read things more.

11:34 PM

@Mourdos Hah! I hit it on my first day! And I think not once since then, haha.

(If I'm not mistaken, sovereign glue has an unusually high caster level in previous editions...)

I hit the rep cap on ELU on about my first day, but never here.

I thought Sovereign Glue and Universal Solvent were non-magical?

In the d20 system, sovereign glue is CL 20th, and universal solvent is same.

Oh wait, I did hit the rep cap here exactly once.

@AgentPaper They’ve always been powerful magic items, if I recall correctly.

My groups have almost always ignored them, but I think a lot of early D&D adventures took them into account.

I imagine one of EGG’s players invented the stuff to solve puzzles.

11:39 PM

Universal solvent is primarily for getting out of a Mimic's sticky grip (or similar).

I always thought of that gear as “10-foot pole stuff,” which never fit into my play style very well.

Because I’ve never had much in the way of puzzler-explorer type players, the sort who get off on adventures like Tomb of Horrors.

But they’re invaluable to that style of campaign.

Nah, those particular 2 items are more like tanglefoot bags

Specific, but very powerful, combat items

Really? Huh, sovereign glue never seemed to have combat purpose to me.

Whereas I often saw in mentioned in old adventures (mostly to say, “sovereign glue does not work in this trap/puzzle room because X”)

@BraddSzonye You can literally glue a dragon to the floor if you can keep it still for one round.

Because apparently Gygax got tired of his players using glue to solve every problem.

11:44 PM

But, what about the glue-based monk build?! What will he eat...I mean use to fight with now?

2

Like, there’s this trapped corridor in White Plume Mountain (if I recall correctly) that is totally frictionless and prevents the use of fly and jump spells, and you have to get over a pit.

If it's frictionless, you'd fall through the floor, no pit required.

Careful, thar be quantum mechanics.

Imagine a frictionless cow.

@BraddSzonye Frictionless spherical cow (probably in a vacuum).

With perfect weight distribution...

11:47 PM

user image

Standard temperature and temperature are probably sufficient for spherical frictionless cows.

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