English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Jez

3:00 PM

maple glazed donut? i've never tried one of them, sounds nice

KitFox

Man, those were good times.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox oh, yeah, I saw that one. But I wasn't feeling very jokey at that time.

KitFox

Oh it's lunchtime. bbl

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Jez They can be pretty good. The ones around here are more accurately described as maple-dipped. i.e. they have a thick icing on top of an unglazed donut.

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I just meant that that is why donuts reminded me about the conversation this morning.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:03 PM

@KitFox ah

That's a maple-dipped donut.

But even better are the ones with the white cream inside:

Jez

ah yes, the ultimate US indulgence; eating establishments whose entire meal consists of a donut

we have some of those babies over here, Krispy Kreme. it's mad.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

there are so many things wrong with your statement that I scarcely know where to begin.

Jez

ok, ok. a donut and a high-caffeine drink to scratch the sugar, fat, AND caffeine itches.

you should have just gone down the route of cannabis cafés. much healthier.

Matt Эллен

Tim Hortons isn't a US chain

is it?

I thought it was Canadian

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1. Tim Hortons is Canadian. 2. Canadians eat way more donuts than Americans. 3. Tim's sells more than just donuts. In fact the percentage of donuts for sale is declining and it bugs me because they used to have larger selection. 4. A donut is never "healthy" food but knocking someone because they ate only a donut is basically telling them that they need more calories.

Actually I should probably verify my 2nd point. Could be an urban myth in Canada. But still.

I should probably add 5. British food is not known to be particularly healthy either. :)

Matt Эллен

3:10 PM

What do you mean? Toad in the hole is one of the healthiest things you'll try. :D

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

lol there used to be a pub near where I worked called "Toad in the Hole". Sadly they closed before I had a chance to go there. Now it is a pizza place.

Matt Эллен

awww

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I had no idea they were named after my new diet food.

Matt Эллен

nothing more low callorie than sausages baked in batter.

> As of March 31st, 2013, Tim Hortons had 4,288 systemwide restaurants, including 3,453 in Canada, 808 in the United States and 27 in the Gulf Cooperation Council.

there is a Tim Hortons system. I wonder what is it

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

> Per capita, Canadians consume the most doughnuts, and Canada has the most doughnut stores per capita

Matt Эллен

3:15 PM

I bet that means there is a Tim Hortons in Dubai Mall

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Seems Wikipedia confirms it.

There are some tim hortonses overseas. I know they started setting some up on military bases where we have soldiers deployed.

Matt Эллен

yes

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

> During a city-wide "lockdown" after the Boston Marathon bombings, a handful of selected Dunkin' Donuts locations were ordered to remain open to serve police and first responders despite the closing of the vast majority of city businesses.

Matt Эллен

lol

priorities!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Who knew working at a donut shop meant you were now a piece of the emergency response apparatus?

KitFox

3:19 PM

Great way to reduce symptoms of shock.

Hot beverage and donut.

Every first responder knows this.

Now you do too.

And unfortunately, I'm back to not wanting to do my job.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

This is awesome: abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/…

KitFox

Ow, ow, ow.

Man, I hated working the drive-thru.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox because they don't have any chocolate sprinkles?

KitFox

I don't know. Because I get away with shirking?

Matt Эллен

ah

KitFox

3:22 PM

My husband is up here today. I hope to see him after lunch.

Matt Эллен

yeah, understimulation is a bummer

So, as I was saying, I was compare for the speeches. Given how much preparation I put in, it went well. I got a good round of applause for my terrible pun. The speeches themselves were as you'd expect. Father of the bride was sweet and funny. Father of the groom was a bit long and quite cringe-worthy.

best men gave a good account of my brother, and my brother gave thanks to everyone

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен I'm not familiar with that phrase: "compare for the speeches"

Matt Эллен

compare, as in announcer

so before each speech I intro'd the person giving it

just a few words

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

ah

Matt Эллен

oh, I think I mean compere

KitFox

3:35 PM

OK, now I'm pissed.

Matt Эллен

been on the hooch already?

KitFox

I've paid $400 extra for healthcare in the last two months because of this fucking stupid ass Big Brother system.

So when it says "Health Assessment complete," it means "except you still need to click some button so that it has this year's date on it even though nothing has changed."

Matt Эллен

it's not automatically dated? That's shoddy

KitFox

Now I'm debating about whether to pretend I didn't notice and then get righteously angry when the service person calls me back or just do it now so that it credits me for next month.

@MattЭллен It's automatically dated, but I guess we have to do it every year.

I had to have two cholesterol tests within three months because of the difference in dates. So stupid.

Matt Эллен

how inefficient

KitFox

3:40 PM

Not to mention that how the hell am I supposed to know that I need to fill out the form again? It says it's completed.

Matt Эллен

yes. that is particularly obscure

KitFox

Plus, all those emails where they conveniently told me that I didn't meet the criteria? They never told me what was missing. And the person I talked to said she didn't know.

So I look at it and it looks complete to me.

Health history, yep. Checkup, yep. Blood work, yep.

Matt Эллен

tch. sounds like they tested it by making sure it doesn't break, not by making sure people could use it

KitFox

Health stuff is always a mess.

Always.

Matt Эллен

yup

KitFox

3:44 PM

It's because of time windows.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 drool

KitFox

Something funny: My insurance provider changed three times while I was pregnant with my first kid, including the day after I gave birth.

So there were fights over the ultrasound and the hospital stay.

Matt Эллен

lol

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

US Healthcare is so crazy

KitFox

I will be so glad when we have universal care.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:46 PM

it'll be decades before it becomes understandable

KitFox

Oh, and the second one is almost paid off!

He turns three this month, so that's not bad.

Matt Эллен

Yay!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

that's shocking, to me

KitFox

We hadn't quite paid off the first before I got pregnant again.

And we cut back the expense quite a lot.

You know they wanted me to have a second ultrasound with the second one?

Talk about frigging ridiculous.

Matt Эллен

isn't that normal?

KitFox

3:48 PM

No.

One.

Matt Эллен

oh

KitFox

But he had a "possible bowel abnormality that can be a marker for Down's syndrome."

Matt Эллен

I thought 3 was the norm.

KitFox

Oh, well, usually one vaginal ultrasound, one external.

Matt Эллен

but I've never been pregnant

KitFox

3:49 PM

So two, I guess.

Matt Эллен

ah

KitFox

So they were going to do a second one as a followup, for another $1,000 that would give us no real useful information.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I don't think we do a vaginal ultrasound here. but we do at least two external ones, maybe 3 or 4. who cares? it's free!

Matt Эллен

:D

KitFox

It was really amazing to me how much stuff they peddle. I had a nurse midwife, and she was great. She'd say "There are these things available." And I'd say, "No, no, no, no. Maybe. No. What's this one for?"

And she'd just cross them off the list.

It's crazy. Like "how did women have children before medicine!?"

Matt Эллен

3:55 PM

in the mud

up in trees?

KitFox

You can have a test early on to check whether your embryo might have Down's syndrome or some other kinds of genetic diseases.

That one I remember. But there were bunches of different tests like that.

Matt Эллен

toodle pip

KitFox

And all I could think of was "Why bother?" Some women would want to know so they could have an abortion, but good lord, they are far, far away from being that accurate.

@MattЭллен Bye.

I am really wound up over this thing.

RegDwighт

Vroom-vroom.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox Well, yeah. people have been having babies for a long, long time. But also, babies and mothers were dying in huge numbers for a long long time too. And finally, most women had basically no say in the number of babies they had because of many reasons you are aware of. So extra prenatal tests these days are not really a cause for concern, except when they are sold to you as a luxury good.

KitFox

4:07 PM

Like I said. It's crazy.

Babies and mothers are a lot healthier now then they used to be, but that's from general nutrition and improved disease resistance, etc.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, also a much better understanding of the delivery process.

KitFox

Most of the things I was offered provided little or no useful information.

Just something to help you panic a little more.

I mean, FFS, they told me my kid had a marker for Down's syndrome.

So I looked it up and yeah, it was sometimes a marker, but if it were a real concern, he'd have many other more obvious markers.

So why bother to repeat the test?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yeah, but a second exam would clear up any doubts. and if that exam were free, why not? but $1000? redonk.

KitFox

Agh, anyway, I'm not upset about that. I'm upset about this stupid HMO garbage.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 There should be no doubt in the first place. There were no other markers, ergo no Down's syndrome.

And because it might be free for me, but someone is paying for it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox yeah but they are not paying anything close to $1000 for it. And you know that doctors are often super conservative when they spot something that might be a sign of some problem. esp in the US with all the malpractice lawsuits.

KitFox

4:14 PM

$750 was just our portion of it. I don't know what the actual total was.

RegDwighт

OVER 9000

KitFox

I am so tired of dealing with people today.

And the weekend was so nice.

Why am I so crabby?

RegDwighт

Deal with objects instead. You could treat them like women.

KitFox

and make sweet, sweet love to them

and laugh and touch them

RegDwighт

Nothing wrong with salty or sour.

KitFox

4:16 PM

I haven't heard back from Jess. I think maybe she's not into me.

RegDwighт

Now, bitter love is special.

Who's Jess now? I'm not up to date.

KitFox

speaking of glazed donuts.

@RegDwighт We had a lunch date-not-date last week.

We were going to watch movies together at some point.

That has not happened yet.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox yeah honestly, a technician is paid by the hour to perform the sonogram and a dr then reads it. It probably costs something like $40 for the tech, lab room, and supplies for 20 mins and $50 for 15 minutes dr's time.

KitFox

I can't figure out if she's into me as a friend or friend with benefits.

RegDwighт

How about friends with Malefiz?

Malefiz

Malefiz (also known as Barricade) is a board game, invented by Werner Schöppner and published by Ravensburger since 1959. It is a descendant of the board game Pachisi, but it lacks the former game's circular gameplay, and makes use of extra pieces to build blockades. Nomenclature The name of the game was creatively derived from the obsolete German word Malefiz (English: "misdeed", "bad action"). The German term originates from the Latin word maleficus (mischievous, profane). Game components * gameboard * 5 colored pawns for each of the four teams * 11 barricades * one die Objective ...

KitFox

4:19 PM

But maybe she's into me for neither.

@RegDwighт Hawt.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

She just hangs out with you to elevate her own status by association.

KitFox

Could be.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

bbl, lunch

RegDwighт

Good idea. I have salad to attend.

Cerberus

4:51 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But it looked equally metallic in the semi-dark!

Cerberus

5:05 PM

KitFox

kicks stuff, swears a lot

Matt Эллен

kicks swears at stuff

I'm a shadow of my former self

KitFox

Nice.

I had a nice walk with my husband.

I returned and filled out an angry feedback survey for the HMO interface.

Matt Эллен

that's good. He calmed you down about the health care crap?

KitFox

That did not make me feel better though.

@MattЭллен Well, kinda. He does a really good job empathizing.

sighs

pokes at w-rk

I'm trying to decide if my big boss falling from a very high place makes it more or less likely that I will actually get my new desk.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:27 PM

@Cerberus That shiny rim is glass. promise.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's nohot!

Anyway, I wouldn't be complaining if I had a N4...

@MattЭллен Nice!

You could be the statue of David.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

well, the GN is a nice phone and in some ways is nicer than the N4. But in terms of physical appearance, I think the N4 is far prettier. The GN has a more functional body, perhaps, but it just isn't a beautiful phone.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus thanks :D

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If you say so.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox hmmm. does he make desk giving decisions?

Cerberus

5:34 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 By the way, I asked my friend about your drunk dilemma.

KitFox

@MattЭллен Budget, yes.

Cerberus

Do you wish to hear her opinion?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus well, compare them side by side in daylight. The N4 is one of the prettiest smartphones I've seen. Granted, I'd never buy a phone just for its looks. In fact they'd have to be basically otherwise equal before the looks factored into the decision. But still.

Cerberus

I will admit that the backside of the GN is hideous.

KitFox

So either I can get away with saying "he already approved this" or I'll have to wait for weeks until he's back in the office.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:35 PM

@Cerberus I dunno. do I? Does someone's opinion on my ethics matter?

Matt Эллен

@KitFox and if he's gone, is the person who will make decisions in his stead easier or harder to manipulate?

KitFox

I'd probably have to wait for weeks if he weren't in the hospital anyway.

@MattЭллен Well, the financier is dumb, so I think I can goad her.

But she might stonewall because it means work.

Matt Эллен

maybe small bribes or affection? stupid people might like affection

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, that is for you to say. The fact that you spent hours discussing them with us might have given me the wrong impression. I will tell you if you're interested.

Matt Эллен

I don't know.

KitFox

5:37 PM

Nah, not with her.

I haven't figured out what yet.

Mostly we try to go around her.

And that might work. "Big Boss said yes, but Financier can't figure it out, can you please help me?"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, my position is that I've given this a lot of thought and nobody has presented evidence to me that I am wrong, just appeals that "it's not that bad". So if someone else comes along and says "nah, it's not that bad", I will just fit them into the bucket called "part of the problem".

But wth. I have ten minutes. Let's hear it.

She might be part of the problem or she might have useful insight. or both.

Cerberus

All right, I tried to describe the dilemma and your position in a neutral manner. As I started to describe the situation, she interrupted me, "oh, this already sounds very American".

So perhaps it's a cultural difference.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

!!!!! I'm insulted already! (no offense to the americans :) )

Caprica Six

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That didn't make much sense. Use the help command to learn more.

Cerberus

Hehe.

KitFox

5:40 PM

None taken.

Cerberus

But seriously, I feel this may be a cultural thing.

KitFox

Sure it is. You make nigger jokes to black students. Obviously a very different culture.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It may be. But that doesn't matter, really. Other cultures can be inherently unethical.

Cerberus

She also said, perhaps it had something to do with the way American girls suddenly get to drink alcohol legally at age 21.

So there might be some kind of shock effect in that culture not present in ours.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus except that in reality teenagers drink all the time.

KitFox

5:41 PM

And that's different in Canada.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, that was of course my response.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

it's not even uniformly 21 all over the US.

Cerberus

@KitFox And that too.

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes it is.

Part of the agreement for interstate highway monies.

Cerberus

But anyway, she said she didn't think it was a serious dilemma.

I said, "but it might be a nasty surprise the day after for the girl".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:43 PM

@KitFox holy smokes I just read that. Wow, how surprising that the states stand up to that blatant federalism! :)

Cerberus

"And the boy is far less drunk, so isn't that rather abusive?"

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It was a big deal back in the day.

Cerberus

She said, "sure, it's the opposite of being a gentleman, but the girl is responsible for her own actions".

"And maybe that's what she wanted anyway."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus So if a girl wants to get really drunk, but doesn't want to have sex with anyone, if she does get really drunk, she's responsible for being raped?

Cerberus

I described a situation where the girl ended up in bed with some other guy while the one she was really after got away, but she still didn't think it was really a big issue.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 She's responsible for having sex, yes, that was her opinion.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:45 PM

@Cerberus Even though she was too drunk to consent to sex.

And didn't even want to have sex beforehand.

Cerberus

I used the word "consent", but she thought that was a bad argument.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So your friend essentially denies that there is such a thing as too drunk to consent to sex.

Cerberus

No, I used the LATASB criterion.

KitFox

laughing and touching and sex before?

Cerberus

As Sex Begins.

At least you got the S right.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:47 PM

That criterion is irrelevant. It doesn't matter how the drunk person demonstrates the "consent". The point is that they are too drunk to FORM a MEANINGFUL consent.

Cerberus

She is the opposite of promiscuous, by the way. She has a boyfriend now, but she had been celibate for a long time before that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

That is also irrelevant.

KitFox

Like so drunk that you think jumping off a bridge is a good idea because you are hot and the water looks inviting.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, so she didn't think the notion of "consent" had much merit. She easily dismissed that word as I brought it up.

@KitFox That's really harmful.

LATASB sex is not that harmful.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It is very clear to me. 1. People have a right to decide when and with whom they will have sex. 2. That deciding process requires a functioning brain. 3. alcohol impairs brain function. 4. Therefore once enough brain function is impaired, #2 does not hold and therefore that person's rights are violated if you have sex with them.

KitFox

5:49 PM

@Cerberus Had a lot of it, have you?

Or don't you remember?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus wrong. wrong wrong wrong. If a girl goes to a party and gets really drunk and has no intention of having sex, and some guy has sex with her, she was harmed. Her autonomy was harmed. Her body was violated. How is that not one of the most fundamental violations possible?

Cerberus

@KitFox Actually, no.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 My friend disagreed.

KitFox

@Cerberus Then how are you qualified to comment?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, your friend is wrong and part of the problem for not recognizing a person's right to their own body.

I am shocked that this idea is so hard for you to accept. Don't you think you have a right to your own body? to decide what happens to it?

Cerberus

She once said that she might not want to live any more after being raped. So it's not like she doesn't care about her body. But she feels that rape is violent, with physical force.

@KitFox ?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:52 PM

Yeah, there are different kinds of rape. Some are worse than others.

Cerberus

I also asked some other girl, I think, at a party, but I forgot whom or when.

KitFox

@Cerberus If you haven't experienced it, how do you know it's not that harmful?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And she disagreed with you too.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway, the 10 minutes is up. I've stated my case. Your friend's opinion doesn't change anything. She's part of the problem. Sorry, I figured this would happen.

Cerberus

@KitFox "Not a lot" ≠ "not".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:54 PM

@Cerberus So you think it's okay for other people to decide what happens to your body without your agreement.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's fine. Just so you know. I think almost every girl I would ask here would have a similar opinion: it may be ungentlemanlike, but not that terrible.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

As long as they don't use physical force to restrain you, they can do what they want.

@Cerberus ah, so you have a rape culture there. good to know.

Cerberus

I don't think we should discuss this in the same way all over again.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I have nothing further to say.

Cerberus

Do you think most girls in your circles would share your point of view?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:56 PM

@Cerberus that actually doesn't matter at all. I am arguing from first principles. And yes, I do think they would agree.

Cerberus

Just curious.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But I could live in a society of racists and deplore racism. appealing to popularity is a fallacy.

Cerberus

I wasn't.

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 They are racists there too. Just fyi.

Cerberus

gasp

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:57 PM

well, telling me all your friends' opinions is kinda like appealing to popularity. "everyone I know thinks you're wrong."

Cerberus

I didn't quite mean it like that: you had already told me that that would never convince you.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox well, there are racists everywhere. One time there was a blonde woman on the subway making racist comments to another passenger, directed at me and my wife.

Cerberus

It was rather a description of the way people think about these issues here.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus What would convince me is an argument from first principles.

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I should say a culture of racism.

I'm sorry people were obnoxious to you.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:58 PM

@KitFox Oh, we have a culture of racism here too. Just look at the wage gaps between white people and non-whites. etc.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I have given you my argument based mostly on principles, but that failed to convince you, right?