English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

11:49 AM

@shomif: If you are trying to develop your own style, why ask about it in some forum about writing? Sheesh. — Robusto 2 mins ago

12:08 PM

We just had this, perhaps in a Nordie-deleted question:

-1

Q: Question Of Meaning

About these: 1 "Hackers gained access to the secret database." 2 "Police gained access to his financial records." For sentence 1, does it mean: - a) the hackers looked at and/or modified the database, or - b) the hackers gained the right/permission/opportunity to look at and/or modify t...

12:26 PM

<sigh> ... some people have no life.

Well, yes.

I couldn’t search back further than 50 in the deleted log, and he asked it before the spamfest.

Sunday morning is a common time for him to try to break through, because of the low traffic.

@Tim Déjà vu: he keeps reposting.

What an extremely odd, yet persistent fellow.

Indeed. We’ve had this as a daily event for something like nine months here.

12:43 PM

Sounds like a pretty stressful pregnancy - let's hope it's not twins.

It’s the morning sickness that I hate about it.

1:05 PM

@TimPost That's the nature of the troll.

One might even countenance changing the troll’s definite determiner to an indefinite one, like a or any.

@tchrist Not needed. "That is the nature of the beast" refers to beasts in general, not a particular beast. It is one of the natures of the definite article.

Ah, that one. Ok.

"The zebra is a horse-like animal with stripes."

If I were to correct my non-native speaker colleagues whenever they made a "mistake" in English, I wouldn't get any work done. Moreover, I would look like a jerk to people who weren't in on the system. — Robusto 1 min ago

The thing that’s odd is that in some regards he doesn’t manifest the typical troll symptoms. Why does he repost the same deleted question several times?

I begin to think that the hole in his mind extends also to understanding.

1:11 PM

Could be. When things go wrong with a mind, they go wrong in many different ways.

Why do Fumble's comments always sound like argumentation, and then when you dispute his point he says he wasn't disagreeing with you?

Also, never try to have the last word with him. The comment chain will never end.

We’ve been here before.

1:54 PM

omg people are here

happy st. pat's day

well, sort of here

i shouldn't expect a lot on a Sunday morning, i guess

Why thank you for reminding me. And, opportunistically, it's Sunday evening!

that's it's sunday?

or that it's st. pat's day?

Yes.

I should go find something green to drink.

I'll be around for a few more hours tonight (it's 10:00 PM my time, Sunday eve) - if our friend returns feel free to ping me on top of flagging (don't forget to flag)

2:08 PM

@TimPost Midori? Absinthe? Crème de menthe? Rumple Minze?

I ain't Irish and I ain't Catholic. This is just another non-churchgoing Sunday for me. I'll probably have some drinks, but it won't be for religious or chauvinistic reasons. (And none of the drinks will be green.) When the Irish start celebrating St. Boniface's day, maybe I'll — nah, not even then.

Only the last of those four strikes me as potentially drinkable.

Johnnie Walker is overpriced. If you want something for your whisky dollar, try Glenmorangie, or Glenrothes.

St John of the Cross

Because 17 March is a Sunday in Lent, it's not St Patrick's Day this year. That is celebrated by the Irish Church tomorrow (Monday) and not at all where it's not a holy day of the highest order.

@StJohnoftheCross Oh, then I'm sure all the Irish will abstain today, wherever they are.

2:15 PM

I don’t buy JW.

St John of the Cross

@Robusto I doubt it. It's an excuse for two days of feasting.

Also good. ^

Although I suppose JW red or black is usable in Wisconsin for whisky&seven.

Yes, I am a fan of the Balvenie doublewood.

@Tim He’s back.

pew pew

I can only surmise that he really, really, really, really wants an answer to that question, and he thinks that being banned is no reason not to keep asking.

2:22 PM

Who knows.

we celebrated with my largely protestant family yesterday

today Orthodox lent is beginning too

so no whiskey for me

i assume that Robusto is just trying to tempt me

St John of the Cross

@TimPost Another one.

@JSBձոգչ Not singling you out. I try tempt everybody with a good single-malt.

that's what the devil always says

so what does the "single" in "single malt" actually refer to?

i have never heard of a "double malt"

I figured out what the random line noise signature is about.

2:37 PM

WTF?

Dunno. I used to occasionally see that, but not lately.

It disappeared with a forced reload, or time.

Probably their Google Analytics is slow or something.

Yeah, better now.

Gotta roll. Later.

@StJohnoftheCross Not 100% positive on that one yet.

The random line noise signature is an attempt to defeat hypothetical algorithmic detection of duplicates.

I do not care to discuss this further in open chat, however.

I notice I get my up–down votes-per-day limit compensated for on on deleted posts, but not my close-vote limit. I wonder whether this is worth an MSO post, or whether it is by design, or that I might simply misunderstand.

@Tim Plus ça change. . . .

EL&U has probably the coolest looking meta site - the grey fits it much better than others (IMHO)

2:50 PM

That may be because it has several grey levels.

And the colors that go with it are nice.

:8554019 I'm being rather tactical when it comes to dealing with new incarnations, sometimes people slip up and make mistakes (and I'm not talking about me, though I do make mistakes like everyone else)

They are all the same question, Tim.

With the same user name.

But beyond that, I agree.

Totally not disputed, if there was no value in keeping it, it would be gone :)

Well, at least it is off the front page now. We seem to have a –4 threshold for that on ELU.

There are two points of view on that, and I do not know which one is the better one for the community in general.

You've got a pretty nice churn on the front page most of the time. I check on most of the sites at least once a day just to see what people are asking and answering, this one tends to suck me in :)

3:00 PM

The interesting thing about our front page is that there are almost never many 0-score questions. It’s like ELU abhors a zero.

Well, one semi-interesting thing.

I have a script that pulls these in. Most sites have a mode=0. We don’t.

Yeah, it is interesting. If that continued if traffic suddenly doubled then I'd definitely ascribe it to sorcery.

Everybody has an opinion on everything here, whereas on say SO, most questions are ones that I have no especial expertise on, and so never vote on them.

I am almost beginning to think the ELU is unique as an SE site because of its topic and the worldliness of English as the de facto lingua franca of our times.

@tchrist Well, EL&U is a very focused site, an expert here is likely to be able to answer any question, where there's quite a bit of fragmentation in that regard on SO (and others)

And if you can answer it, you're probably competent to vote on it.

Yes, we definitely our more focused, you’re right. That said, we’re starting to shed some to Linguistics, to Writing, and to ELL. I’m not always sure I agree with the first one’s shedding.

Or Workplace. It is funny how people think that any question they can formulate in the English language belongs here.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Robusto my favorite!

3:10 PM

Hi @TimPost

Hi @cornbreadninja麵包忍者

Ah, River City. Gotta love it.

While talking with my friend, I came to an awkward sentence:
I never drunk
Is it right?

Only if you're drunk.

@TimPost: It'd be drank.

I never drank (something), or to imply abstaining from alcohol, "I never drank" would be colloquially appropriate.

3:14 PM

@tchrist: You can help me.

there'd be subtle differences

Tim, we have a problem with this user. He comes here and @pings everybody begging answers to basic questions, again and again and again. He has been chastised for this before, by both regular users and by our mod team.

@tchrist:What's wrong with you.

I can't figure it out.

Learning and asking question is not a bad thing.

@sudhir If you ping me one more time, I am going to flag you every time. Stop being such a god-awful pest!!!

@Sudhir Chat is fine for the occasional one-off question that really would not make sense posting to the main site. But it's not the best place to ask all of your questions.

I have seen this guy is having problem with me.

Always, everytime

I give respect to all guys, with the intention of learning.

3:19 PM

Well, interpersonal problems really don't fit within the room topic. So talking about something else at this point would be a grand idea :)

Yes you're right.

I appreciate you.

Theone Manis

Hello everybody, I am back!

Hi @TRiG, how does it feel to be Irish today? :)

@tchrist I went into town and watched the parade for the first time in years. Fun, but weird.

Do other countries than Ireland and America have St Paddy’s parades?

3:22 PM

Lots of kids (in the parade; not just watching it).

I bet that was cute.

It’s always nice when the Little People make a showing. :)

Theone Manis

Fingers don't fing. -- Anyone know what 'fing' means in that sentence? (fing = anything fingers do -- doesn't really match the sentence)

I wish I could say that last sentence with a Dara Ó Briain accent.

Strangest entry was Hugh Lynch's, a local pub. They were advertising themselves as a party venue, so they had a tractor pulling a flatbed with a "party" on it: St Patrcick as the DJ, and a bunch of people dancing while wearing sheep masks, with ram horns on the side. And then a few actual live sheep in a small pen at the back. Weird.

After they'd gone past, and I was standing in befuddled bemusement, I heard the DJ chap announce that the pub would be hosting a live sheep-shearing contest later in the day, which made the whole thing begin to make some sort of sense. Apparently sheep-shearing is a party thing in the Midlands. Who knew?

@TheoneManis Tim Minchin: "F*nger"

I guess it is that time of the year, to shear the sheep. Hm.

Theone Manis

3:27 PM

@TRiG I don't understand :-/ "Fingers don't finger"??

(PS: It's from my textbook, and hence can't be dirty.)

Full form of PS?

@TheoneManis

@Sudhir Post Script (next time, Google is your friend ;)

Okay, Thanks. @TheoneManis

3:29 PM

@tchrist There were some dancing girls, about twelve years old; they looked absolutely frozen.

Gosh, I bet. I didn’t go to our parade this year. Seemed like it would be cold.

They’re calling for 60 and 50 today, which is going to mess up any parade.

60 temp, 50 winds.

And the local rugby club had won something, so they paraded past. More youth members than adults, apparently: lots of little boys. (They didn't look frozen; they were playing rugby.)

Playing rugby in the parade?

@tchrist Well, mucking about with a couple of rugby balls, anyway. And they even tried to get a small scrum going at one point.

@tchrist Yes. I love the way Dara defuses Stephen in that clip.

For their Kick-the-Brits Day parade (Fourth of July), one of our mountain towns has these two cool sports floats. Both are flatbed trucks. One is set up for skate-boarders to jump over a bit fire, the other is set up for snow-boarders to do jumps through snow. And it is real snow, because it is held at ~9,000 feet of elevation, with easy access to 14,000 feet where the snow never melts.

@TRiG Yeah, that was really funny. Very effective, and amusing.

3:34 PM

There was also a half-pipe, attached to the back of a van, with some kids on bikes doing stunts whenever the van stopped (which was frequently: the parade went by really slowly, for some reason).

Did the parade pass by only once, or twice?

@tchrist Have you seen the clip on Mock the Week about the size of his head? All the guests lay into him and rip him to shreds, and then he comes back with one line which wins the whole scene.

@tchrist Just the once.

Which was enough.

@TRiG I might have, but I don’t recall it quite right now.

►

Is it just me, or does Chris look 20 years younger than he really is?

Chris Addison was born is 1971. Seems . . . well-preserved.

@Tim He’s like that danged Energizer Bunny.

3:45 PM

@tchrist Going and going and going

@Tim And going.

@tchrist So this individual may be pink and furry. I think this could be progress.

He should be going to bed some time in the next hour or three.

Until then, it will probably keep repeating.

@Tim Congrats on your new ELU badge. :)

4:01 PM

@tchrist I'm glad something good can come out of this :)

4:11 PM

@TimPost Oh, I expect a Marshal badge before too long now. :)

5:07 PM

Hi

@TimPost

How're doing?

So you're from Phillipnes?

@Sudhir Yes, I'm an expat.

So how are you doing?

@Sudhir I'm doing well, yourself? I'm not far from retiring for the evening.

I'm fine.

So you're in IT sector.

No, not any longer. Programming is something I now do only on my free time.

5:11 PM

We work for US clients.

@Sudhir I'm not sure how that relates to the room topic? Please do try and stay on topic :)

Okay

So what you do?

I'm a community manager for Stack Exchange.

Great!

So you're in US now?

@Sudhir You're getting off topic again :)

5:14 PM

I wonder that you've said evening at your end, but its 1:12 there.

That's why I asked.

This room isn't about me, or you (though occasionally idle chatter is fine), the bulk of the conversation however should be directly related to EL&U.

Hi!

Ok

Hi @Cerberus

Your English is very good.

@TimPost You obviously haven't been in this room very often...

@simchona Does the last 72 hours of my life count?

5:17 PM

@TimPost Those were special circumstances

@TimPost I see you have already met certain people. I say this counts as your initiation.

You see, we have revised the twelve labours of Hercules a little bit.

We already have the Augean Stables here, as you can see.

And me.

Sim can pose as the Hydra?

Wouldn't the Hydra be...you know who?

Hmm...actually, I wouldn't know...who?

The real Hydra couldn't make it.

Tchrist seems more like the Cretan Bull.

Why is he the Bull?

KitFox

5:37 PM

@Robusto My husband just brought me some of this. I plan to drink some tonight.

It's my favorite, but the closest place to get it is the NH liquor store.

5:51 PM

oh, Kit! hello kiit

you summoned me yesterday, which is why i'm here

Hiya.

Welcome! The short answer is: the "size" of the "vocabulary" of a "language" contains three concepts that are very hard to define, and you would need to establish (fairly arbitrary) definitions on the spot to make any calculations. The result would in all likelihood not be considered very relevant to anything by linguists. Even shorter: it depends and it doesn't matter. — Cerberus 12 secs ago

Was I too hard on this guy?

I think you're fine.

OK.

you gave the correct answer. nothing to apologize about

OK. It's just that he is a new users and he probably won't understand.

But I really don't want to explain it all again.

6:40 PM

@tchrist I deleted one of your answers to a question because it was clearly not constructive, and gives the impression that all those questions will get answered regardless of validity

@simchona That’s ok. It probably should have been at most a comment anyway. Or an answer to the resource questions.

user19161

@tchrist You can just ignore him if it bothers you.

@JasperLoy He bothers everyone. Don’t you remember the other day with @sim?

user19161

@Sudhir It's a good idea to ask basic questions on ELL main site instead. In this way, you get good answers fast instead of bothering some chatters here all the time.

user19161

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Is your new username supposed to be Japanese or Chinese, or both at the same time?

6:56 PM

I'm prepared to kick him if he keeps doing it

@tchrist yeah, I wanted to give you a heads up instead of doing it and not letting you know

user19161

@simchona Kicking a person for asking English questions in an English language chat room is too harsh.

@jasper no. Kicking someone who is bothering users, even after several warnings, is perfectly valid

user19161

@Cerberus No, you even said welcome!

user19161

Remember guys, that is what the "ignore" is for in chat.

No, that is what kicking is for. Even a SE employee warned him.

7:01 PM

I am inclined to agree that no harm is done if people just ignore him.

It suits me perfectly.

I answer the occasional question when I'm in the mood, ignore the Facebook requests.

Hello

Hiya.

user19161

Anyway, you guys decide what to do with such things, I am officially no longer part of ELU, haha!

Ignore who?

Not you!

7:04 PM

@JasperLoy You don't belong here, dude. Get out of here before I call 911.

:)

Hi @simchona

@Noah Hey, hey.

How are you?

@Cerberus I think I got caught red handed.

@Cerberus:Hi

Is @KitFox a female?

7:07 PM

@Sudhir NO she is a cat.

Really?

user19161

@sudhir Are you aware of what is going on?

Yep.

Pinging people is not for "talk to me now!", nor for "I greet you now!", but rather for "in the conversation that we are now clearly in the middle of, this line might otherwise be mistaken for one addressed to someone else".

@JasperLoy:thanks

user19161

7:09 PM

@Sudhir I just wanna let you know that some users are not comfortable with getting too many pings. This is not because they slight you or despise you in any way.

@Cerberus Is this some sort of rule that you made up?

Yes.

@sudhir Kit's gender is up to them to disclose to you, or not

Was it addressed to everyone, or someone in particular?

user19161

@Sudhir Also, a chat room such as this is not unlike politics in an office in real life. You need to watch out for how others behave and respond to you too!

7:11 PM

@noah I effing know that. But that isn't your place to say.

@Noah Everyone.

user19161

@Noah I advise against disclosing too much personal info about others in this chat.

@simchona Sorry, removed that.

user19161

One can disclose some things, but not too many things.

user19161

And also, one should not disclose or quote any sensitive info.

7:12 PM

@JasperLoy You are right.

I would say basically not to disclose anything about others, unless its in their profile or something

user19161

Guys, we just need to use our common sense, really.

I should probably shut my self up before it gets messy.

@simchona I don't know...this is rather non-sensitive information that she has made public many times. I guess it is perhaps better to leave it up to people to introduce themselves, but it's not a big deal in this case.

@JasperLoy And ladies.

user19161

7:13 PM

As with all things in life, moderation is the key, QED.

@cerb yes, but in a bio all in one place?

It is rather basic.

But w'evs.

@JasperLoy: I 've joined ELL. So I won't ask any further question.

I would still rather leave it up to her

Thanks for your suggestion.

What you say?

user19161

7:15 PM

@Sudhir Good, ask all your questions on ELL from now.

Sure.

@simchona Yes, I'd rather let her introduce herself. I'm just saying it's not a big deal.

@simchona Facebook is forcing people to disclose their real identities, if they don't they will be shoved off.

@cerb what with the private info being spammed on SE by NS, I guess I'm extra vigilant about it

I use to ask here so that I get answer to my question fast and in a responsive manner but as you are suggesting I'd do as you want.

7:17 PM

@noah that's fine, but SE isn't a social network

@JasperLoy: If some user got hurt from my behavior, say them SORRY from myself.

@simchona I think it is. They have career.stackexchagne.com, which is somewhat related.

David Wallace

@simchona So Kit has a hidden gender?

@noah job search listings aren't a social network. Just a forum.

user19161

@Sudhir Well, I think they are not really hurt but irritated. Anyway, as long as you avoid pinging people too often, it should be alright.

7:20 PM

@simchona Right. But on there, they disclose their CVs, which include their real bio and everything.

@noah which is their own choice to disclose

@JasperLoy:ok I won't do further.

Hello, @DavidWallace

Long time no see. How are you doing?

I do only for learning Eng and clearing my doubts.

Bye

@JasperLoy

@Sudhir Don't ping people. Pinging is like poking. Some get tickled others get angry. That is why.

@JasperLoy Can I ping you?

7:29 PM

@Noah I have at least one fake Facebook profile, and I know of a dozen more. Facebook had better give up.

@Noah Are you sure?

@Noah OK I won't ping you no more.

user19161

@Noah Yes, pinging me cannot make me angry.

A: Are there rules about using "that" to join two clauses?

1

As most of the other answers here point out, including that in a sentence like "He will understand that I was not joking" is optional. But I'd like to offer some examples where that, despite performing the same basic function that it does in "He will understand that I was not joking," either is c...

This is an excellent answer.

It provides plenty of examples to dispel the myth that "the conjunction that can always be left out".

7:54 PM

@Cerberus Positive

8:17 PM

@simchona I very much appreciate your courtesy, which I would do even if I didn’t agree with your decision, which I did do. :)

pkswatch

8:42 PM

ji

hi i am working on this problem and trying to get my head around an idea

but i am stuck on identifying parts in a sentence

can anyone validate and justify my idea:

"every sentence has 1 or more actors which perform some actions and the rest part may be the result of these actions"

as an example, I am taking @tchrist's sentence above this post which says:

"I very much appreciate your courtesy, which I would do even if I didn’t agree with your decision, which I did do."

So, it depicts atleast 2 actors: I (tchrist) and your (others)

actions of "I" : appreciate, (didn't) agree,

actions of "your" : courtesy (probably a property more than action! ) , decision

result of I's actions: null

result of "your"'s actions: null

.

masters, enlighten me! please! :)

10:00 PM

@pkswatch this is not an accurate statement. there are sentences with no actors, and sentences with no results.

a sentence is defined as having a subject and a predicate (a verb plus other arguments). but the subject does not have to be an actor

tchrist's statement is very complex, containing two relative clauses and a conditional

so if you're looking for practice identifying subjects and predicates, i suggest you start with something simpler

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@JasperLoy Mandarin

10:35 PM

@Cerberus That is not a conjunction; it is a relative pronoun (or a demonstrative). If is a conjunction, not that.

11:34 PM

@tchrist I don't know why you say that, but in practical terms it is usually called a conjunction, although various theories and models are possible.