English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

12:05 PM

@RegDwight — Wow. You're really biased, you know?

RegDwight

I know! That's why I'm telling you, so you can know it, too!

Thanks for that.

I'm here to etc.

Well, etc. away.

Go?

12:07 PM

0

Q: What are some examples of "widely accepted as correct" English being downgraded to slang or incorrect by "authorities"?

If, for the sake of argument, you wanted to write a left-wing thesis arguing that the imposition of externally-generated grammatical, spelling and word usage rules was historically - in part - a tool of oppression and class division, what would you cite as evidence?

OT?

RegDwight

I dunno. Seen that, not sure.

This is one of those questions that might turn out great or utter nonsense depending on the answers.

Robusto

@RegDwight — No. [Verb] away means [Verb] freely or at will (except when used with "go" and the like). "Fire away," "Fiddle away," "Jabber away" etc.

RegDwight

Except when you say "go away".

That bears repeating.

Robusto

45 secs ago, by Robusto

@RegDwight — No. [Verb] away means [Verb] freely or at will (except when used with "go" and the like). "Fire away," "Fiddle away," "Jabber away" etc.

RegDwight

17 secs ago, by RegDwight

That bears repeating.

So I thank you for doing just that.

Robusto

12:10 PM

34 secs ago, by Robusto

45 secs ago, by Robusto

@RegDwight — No. [Verb] away means [Verb] freely or at will (except when used with "go" and the like). "Fire away," "Fiddle away," "Jabber away" etc.

RegDwight

Okay, now I consider stopping thanking you.

Robusto

You won't be able to help yourself. You'll see. The thanks will gush forth unbidden, unwanted, and unaccepted.

RegDwight

I think I now hold the record for the shortest starred message ever. Possibly across all chat rooms. I am so gr8, it's incredible.

Robusto

@RegDwight — And such a pithy commentary it is, too. Amazing how you can pack so much meaning into just three letters.

RegDwight

You misspelled little. A common typo.

You should read more. It helps tell little and much apart.

Robusto

12:13 PM

@RegDwight — You have me at a disadvantage, sir. I think you should have slept longer.

RegDwight

Not in that company.

10 hours ago, by Cerberus

We are all going to bed together. How... interesting.

Robusto

So ... you never did find the bedroom, did you?

RegDwight

I kept looking for quite some time before giving up and using jQuery.

Robusto

$('@RegDwight').sleep('wherever');

RegDwight

s/wherever/under the bridge/

Robusto

12:17 PM

$('@RegDwight').rooms().each(function(e){if (e.target === 'bedroom') { .sleep(); }}

RegDwight

I went ahead and deleted that -fu post. I mean, it did get flagged by the Community ♦.

Robusto

Is there anything less useful than old technology? Or harder to throw away? I still have a frickin' PDA in my drawer from 2002 and I can't bring myself to just toss it. /sigh

RegDwight

@Robusto I am looking at an impressive collection of old mobile phones right now.

Robusto

@RegDwight — Bias! Bias!

RegDwight

I mean, it's not on display or anything. Just lying around collecting dust.

@Robusto You want to get flagged, huh? Freaking capitalist.

Respect my bias!

Robusto

12:20 PM

@RegDwight — As long as it's the American flag, I don't care.

RegDwight

Awwww... now how sweet is that.

@Obama @CIA @TAFKAPNAC.

Robusto

But this is the kind of flag you use:

RegDwight

Haven't seen that one for a while. Except on every wall in every room in my appartment, that is.

Haha. The Soviet flag just got starred. How appropriate.

Robusto

No wonder you can't sleep.

Must be Vitaly.

Vitaly

:P

Robusto

12:23 PM

Ha! Told ya.

RegDwight

I am surrounded.

Robusto

In worker's paradise you don't get UMG or Sony YouTube. How sad.

RegDwight

I have an idea for April 1st, 2012. Turn all stars in chat into hammer-and-sickles.

Robusto

@RegDwight — You could do roughly the same thing by just making them red.

RegDwight

@Robusto Tunisia != USSR.

Or North Korea.

Or Alta California, for that matter.

Robusto

12:28 PM

@RegDwight — Tell me, what color was the star on all the soviet tanks and jets and such?

RegDwight

The color is called beautiful. In Russian.

Robusto

I rest my case.

RegDwight

5

Q: First recorded appearance of the mistranslation "Red Square"

Does anybody know when the mistranslation "Red Square" made its first recorded appearance? Have there been any noteworthy attempts at establishing the correct translation "Beautiful Square" at some point in history? Obviously, it's too late to change the name now, but I am interested in learning ...

etymology history mistranslation proper-nouns toponyms

I rest mine.

Robusto

@RegDwight — Star != square

RegDwight

Oh.

Nobody told me that.

They don't teach such advanced stuff in Soviet schools.

Robusto

12:30 PM

Well, that's why we go over these things, etc.

RegDwight

I am so eternally, amaranthinely grateful, you have no idea.

Robusto

0

Q: What are some examples of "widely accepted as correct" English being downgraded to slang or incorrect by "authorities"?

If, for the sake of argument, you wanted to write a left-wing thesis arguing that the imposition of externally-generated grammatical, spelling and word usage rules was historically - in part - a tool of oppression and class division, what would you cite as evidence?

slang history

Sorry, but this is so not on topic.

Use your vote.

I did.

Appreciated.

12:33 PM

You are afraid to delete it because it's about class warfare and socialism.

Get out of my head.

Comin' ta get ya!

Looks like a Yak.

Voted

12:38 PM

Вы-ы-ходила на берег...

Vitaly

:)

psmears

@Vitaly There are currently tanks and APCs sitting at the end of my street. I am very glad none of them looks like that :)

Vitaly

расцэтали явини и гуши, попили туани над экой…

RegDwight

@psmears They don't have Photoshop in Egypt?

@Vitaly You from Georgia?

psmears

@RegDwight No... this was one of the primary causes of the revolution...

RegDwight

12:40 PM

But that would mean that you will be getting just such monsters as a result.

So get out. Quick.

Vitaly

@RegDwight That's from Vasil Bykaŭ's The Alpine Ballad, in which a foreign girl tried to sing that song while an Ivan was trying to protect her from capitalists.

RegDwight

►

Robusto

There, that's better.

psmears

@RegDwight Don't worry, they're too busy using it to change everything in the country into the colours of the Egyptian flag to get on to that yet.

RegDwight

@RegDwight how's that for an accent?

@Robusto See, this is why the US will fail. Comic Sans.

Robusto

12:45 PM

@RegDwight — Uh, take another look. Your typography skills are somewhat wanting.

It's called "Chalkboard" ...

RegDwight

Yeah, that's that Pseudo Comic Sans by Apple.

I fail to see how it makes things better.

Robusto

RegDwight

But I do like how your plane is labeled "FU".

Robusto

Anyway, you've already acknowledged my superiority in your voice balloon. What more is there to say?

RegDwight

Obligatory link: manic.com.sg/blog/archives/000118.php

I think I'll be having breakfast in the mean time.

TTYL.

Robusto

12:47 PM

Yeah, yeah. Neue Helvetica just wouldn't work there.

CYA.

RegDwight

There's my Ersatz, @kiamlaluno.

I'm out.

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight What is a Ersatz? Most importantly, where is it?

0

Q: What does this section of the FAQ mean?

Please look around to see if your question has already been asked (and maybe even answered!) before you ask. It’s also perfectly fine to ask and answer your own question, as long as you pretend you’re on Jeopardy: phrase it in the form of a question. It's not exactly clear to me what the las...

discussion support questions answering-questions

I think @Kosmonaut was wondering what that part of the FAQ meant.

(There are 13 possible translations of Ersatz; I am not sure if I would pickup replacement or surrogate.)

Robusto

@Vitaly — One Japanese site calls this weapon: 変態武器 ("strange [or perverse] weapon") ... Hahaha!

@kiamlaluno — Ersatz is German for "fake" or "copy" or "replacement".

ersatz |ˈerˌsäts; -ˌzäts; erˈzäts|
adjective
(of a product) made or used as a substitute, typically an inferior one, for something else : ersatz coffee.
• not real or genuine : ersatz emotion

kiamlaluno

@Robusto Google Translate is quite off, then.

translate.google.com/#de|en|Ersatz

Robusto

Yes. In the sense of "substitute" ...

kiamlaluno

1:00 PM

Oh, it is also used in English.

Robusto

Look it up in your NOAD.

kiamlaluno

We would say surrogato del caffè (ersatz coffee).

I thought @RegDwight was using the German word, as he wrote it in capital case.

Robusto

But no doubt @RegDwight just meant it in the sense of "replacement" as in you were replacing him as my punching bag.

kiamlaluno

Whoops... Nein, nein! Nein, British Dictionary!

Wheeew! Now I feel better.

Oh, I didn't get the punching bag part.

I like to be able to see both the dictionaries, but I would like better if Dictionary.app would switch to "American Dictionary" when I open it.

Uhmmm... 333 is not a good number.

If it must be, then it must be 666. Half-measures are not good.

(Let me see if even the chat flags me for self-vandalism.)

Robusto

@RegDwight: Here's a version of our dogfight with Apple Casual instead of Chalkboard. And FU2!

Perhaps that won't offend your delicate sensibilities.

kiamlaluno

1:12 PM

Mine?

No, @RegDwight's.

I have never seen an American airplane like that.

Robusto

Those planes are from the Korean war.

Cerberus

Morning.

Robusto

Howdy.

kiamlaluno

On the Intrepid there are airplanes from different epochs, but I have not seen those.

There is also a Korean airplane.

@Cerberus Good afternoon.

Cerberus

Oh, right.

The Intrepid? Is that a carrier?

kiamlaluno

1:21 PM

There was also a Concorde, the last time I have been there. The first time there wasn't.

@Cerberus It's an old carrier that is used as museum, now.

intrepidmuseum.org

You can visit part of the inside.

Cerberus

Ah, I see.

Are you in America?

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus I am in Italy.

That is why I said "good afternoon." :-)

Robusto

The American jet is an F-86 and the Soviet one is a MiG-15. In most performance aspects the MiG was the superior aircraft, although the F-86 enjoyed a greater kill ratio (10:1) in combat, mostly due to inexperienced pilots flying the MiGs. When experienced Russian pilots were flying the MiGs, the actual ratio was more like 1.3:1.

Cerberus

Oh, you have visited the continent on several occasions? I thought the afternoon was mine.

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus Now you get me confused. :-)

Italy is not an island.

Cerberus

1:25 PM

Never mind!

kiamlaluno

If by continent you mean USA, then I visited USA in the last 10 years.

I also went to Canada, once, at Niagara Falls.

Actually, there are two towns called so: one in the USA, and one in Canada.

Robusto

@kiamlaluno — "The Continent" is how the British usually refer to mainland Europe.

Cerberus

You said you'd visited the Intrepid several times; it probably being a holiday destination by itself, I gathered that you lived somewhere in the neighbourhood, though I think I knew you didn't. Memory!

kiamlaluno

My passport says I have been in USA 5 times, since October 2006.

Cerberus

@Rob: It is also used in contrast to "Ango-Saxon" these days, as in philosophy.

psmears

1:29 PM

@Robusto As in, "Fog in Channel: Continent Isolated"

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus I have been on the Intrepid twice.

Robusto

@psmears — Cool.

kiamlaluno

I have never said I visited the Intrepid several times. :-)

Cerberus

@PSM: Ha, a great example.

@Kiam: Confusing!

RegDwight

@kiamlaluno Kosmonaut was wondering something completely different. The Jeopardy metaphor just doesn't work. On Jeopardy, you frame your answers as questions. This doesn't make any sense whatsoever on SE.

Cerberus

1:32 PM

Morning.

Brb.

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight That is why I asked what the sentence should mean.

RegDwight

But that's not how your question reads. And that's not what the answer is addressing.

psmears

@RegDwight The way I interpret this is as "If you are bursting to add a particular piece of information to SE then by all means do so. But as well as posting that information (in an answer), do the Jeopardy thing and construct a question your answer answers."

If you read it like that, then it makes sense - but is hardly the clearest way of expressing it.

RegDwight

Yup.

psmears

"Write the question as a question" would have caused far less confusion, for instance.

kiamlaluno

1:35 PM

@RegDwight My question addresses the "frame your answers as questions."

RegDwight

Buried somewhere in the middle, yes.))

kiamlaluno

For how I understood it, I would get it means that if you know the answer, then you should post it as answer, but writing it as it would be a question.

From the answer I got, I get it is referring to something completely different.

The sentence that is written in the FAQ now doesn't make any sense, though.

RegDwight

Apr 12 at 14:50, by RegDwight

I mean, the Venn diagram on the About page ain't a Venn diagram, either.

At least they no longer pretend it is.

kiamlaluno

It seems that it is referring to answering your own question after you asked it.

Venn will be happy.

Robusto

@RegDwight — That's not accurate. Jeopardy™ calls itself "the game of answers and questions"; it is the response that is framed as a question because it is, in fact, the question.

kiamlaluno

1:45 PM

@Robusto I guess that in a Jeopardy, you have the answer, and you try to understand which question would have that answer.

Robusto

Also, @RegDwight, please delete the starred reference to my dogfight picture, if you please.

@kiamlaluno — Correctamundo.

kiamlaluno

Is that "correct a mundo"?

Robusto

It's a reference to Pulp Fiction.

kiamlaluno

is it Englasil?

Engloguese?

Robusto

Jules: Now Yolanda, we're not gonna do anything stupid, are we?
Yolanda: Don't you hurt him.
Jules: Nobody's gonna hurt anybody. We're gonna be like three little Fonzies here. And what's Fonzie like? Come on Yolanda what's Fonzie like?
Yolanda: Cool?
Jules: What?
Yolanda: He's cool.
Jules: Correctamundo. And that's what we're gonna be. We're gonna be cool. Now Ringo, I'm gonna count to three, and when I count three, you let go of your gun, and sit your ass down. But when you do it, you do it cool. Ready? One... two... three.

@kiamlaluno — It's Tarantino.

RegDwight

1:50 PM

@Robusto My point exactly. We don't want people "framing a response as a question because it is, in fact, the question".

@Robusto Which dogfight picture? I don't see it.

Robusto

40 mins ago, by Robusto

NO!

Not that one.

RegDwight

Yes, but I don't see a star.

Robusto

At the top of the starred posts.

kiamlaluno

The top starred post is one containing a link.

RegDwight

The Soviet flag?

Robusto

1:52 PM

Just unstar the post, if you will.

You mean like this?

WTF?

:D

Fine, Commie Mutant Traitor.

kiamlaluno

I see an empty star.

I see nothing, anymore.

RegDwight

1:53 PM

Eyes wide shut.

Robusto

►

RegDwight

@Robusto At least you skimmed that article.

kiamlaluno

Should I close them, or open them?

RegDwight

@kiamlaluno Both.

Robusto

@RegDwight — No, I read it, in excruciating detail, about the definition of digital rights domains: Geeks vs. Lawyers, etc.

RegDwight

1:55 PM

No freaking way. You're teh awesum.

kiamlaluno

"Riders on the storm... ♬"

To be sure, I will open one, and close the other.

RegDwight

Mar 9 at 15:30, by RegDwight

Writers on the Storm.

kiamlaluno

Let's change song.

RegDwight

Enable your spell-checker, geez.

kiamlaluno

"Oh Lord, would you buy me a... ♬"

Robusto

1:57 PM

Ummm ... can we change the station?

RegDwight

BTW, I'm still frühstücking. I'm only here because people just wouldn't stop at-mentioning me.

psmears

@Robusto I have a vague memory that the word was used by the Fonz in Happy Days too (hence the appropriateness in that scene) - or am I just making that up?

kiamlaluno

"Would you like to swim on a star, carry moonbeams home in a jar... ♬"

Robusto

@RegDwight — You're here because you have no life apart from EL&U.SE. Whether you're eating or not is immaterial.

@kiamlaluno — It's "swing on a star" ...

RegDwight

Ha. You have no idea. This is not the only site I'm on 24/7.

kiamlaluno

1:59 PM

I don't like much to swing.

Robusto

@RegDwight — See? I just knew map-reduce was going to eventually clone moderators.

RegDwight

I'm too lazy to post that video of Homer Simpson and his hammock.

discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/questions/1516/…

What, no inlining love for Area51 discussions?

Robusto

@psmears — Could be. Jules does refer to Fonzies.

RegDwight

Oh. It's been deleted. Too bad. It was funny. Oh well, then I guess I will have to post the Homer Simpson video after all.

►

Robusto

@psmears: And ... you're right.

sitcomsonline.com/sounds/correctamundo.wav

sitcomsonline.com/fonz.html

psmears

2:03 PM

@Robusto Heh, you got there seconds before me :)

Robusto

That's something I did not know, not having ever watched Happy Days.

psmears

Was about to post exactly the same link!

Pre-jinx!

Prinx!

TAFKA?

2:03 PM

Hahaha.

psmears

@Robusto You're not missing a huge amount... it was entertaining enough to pass the time, but hardly hilarious stuff...

Robusto

Strangely, the only bits of it I've seen are from the Weezer video ...

psmears

@RegDwight If two people greet each other at the same time, is that an example of "hi-jinx"?

RegDwight

That's a question for the main site.

My heavenly powers allow me to resurrect that Area51 question: "Proposal: Philosophy

I as just reading a book on Buddism. It says that after we die, our consciousness is preserved (like conservation of mass and energy in science) and there's people might take re-birth (reincarnation) as their precious stream of consciousness flows in them.

I would like to know what different opinion of religion on after life.

Thank you!!!"

Robusto

►

RegDwight

2:07 PM

@Robusto Is your freaking country owned by UMG?

Haven't not seen a Sony video for a while.

But UMG? All the time.

Robusto

Complain to YouTube.

RegDwight

Then it would get labeled as "Complaints by KGB are not accepted in this country."

UMG.

That any better? The video starts at 1:14

RegDwight

2:09 PM

Why do I even click?

@Robusto Ah, perhaps that is the problem! I just have to wait 1:14.

Robusto

Go to YouTube and search for Weezer Buddy Holly. See if there's anything there you can watch.

RegDwight

I know that video.

I own the CD in fact.

Robusto

It was on the Windows 95 disc.

RegDwight

Floppy, you mean.

Robusto

Windows 95 had a CD, I'm pretty sure.

Possibly it required a floppy to boot it, I don't remember.

RegDwight

2:12 PM

Wie fortschrittlich!

Robusto

@RegDwight — In any case, a floppy is also a "disc" ... NNS ... need I say more?

変態武器

RegDwight

You know I knew you would say that.

Robusto

You knew I'd know you knew I knew you'd say that.

RegDwight

The more you knew!

Robusto

The more you knew, the less you know!

Anyway, complain to Putin about why you can't get UMG. Maybe you'll find a solid chunk of Polonium in your breakfast Muesli.

RegDwight

2:16 PM

Are you implying that I knew Thomas More, but don't know Less from the Bay Area?

Robusto

I'm saying Les is More.

[Les Paul is Thomas More.]

RegDwight

Oh, I thought you meant them other Lez.

Robusto

Easy now.

RegDwight

It's a valid concern, in your case.

0

Q: Is 'couple' ever used in the sense of 'some'?

Is the usage of the word couple (as in, "I want to ask a couple of questions...") to mean 'some' or 'few' correct (as in, interpreting given example to mean "I want to ask a few questions")? As a follow-up on the example, when someone says "I want to ask a couple of questions...", does the usage...

word-choice grammar grammatical-number

This is a strange question.

"I just saw someone use X. Is X ever used?"

kiamlaluno

Maybe the OP means he doesn't know if who used X used it correctly. It is a strange question, as it is written.

RegDwight

2:21 PM

Also, this:

3

Q: Why is 'a couple of <things>' often shortened to 'a couple <things>'?

I would write a couple of . I often read/hear a couple . I assumed this was an American English thing (I'm British), and just a convenient shortening of the phrase for speaking. It's easier to say a couple minutes vs a couple of minutes. On a side note, this doesn't seem to restrict the number ...

word-choice american-english british-english differences

kiamlaluno

Ahah!

RegDwight

Stop bending over backwards to laugh.

Robusto

@RegDwight — That's how they do it in Italy.

RegDwight

Yeah, in Italy they stop to bend over backwards to laugh.

Sorry @kiam.

kiamlaluno

Does stopping when the traffic light is red count?

RegDwight

2:27 PM

You don't stop at traffic lights in Italy. You don't have traffic lights in Italy.

kiamlaluno

That is true; we have semafori.

Robusto

@kiamlaluno — Aww, come on. Italians don't stop for red lights. You know that.

In Italy, green means go, yellow means go faster, and red means go like hell.

RegDwight

Dante Alighieri summed it up in a book of his.

kiamlaluno

@Robusto They surely do so in Naples. Fortunately, Naples is not all Italy.

RegDwight

Naples is where Italians store their junk.

Robusto

2:31 PM

@RegDwight — And it wasn't Il Paradiso.

kiamlaluno

Naples does store its own junk. They even launch it from the window.

RegDwight

The thing is, no matter which window in Italy you launch your junk from, it will end up in Naples.

3

Robusto

@RegDwight — Word.

kiamlaluno

The problem is that only Neapolitan people have that habit.

Robusto

People also display their "junk" in windows in Naples.

RegDwight

2:34 PM

Well, that's only logical. You don't put stuff on display behind the wardrobe, or under your bed. A window is a much better choice.

Robusto

Interestingly, the names Naples and Carthage originally meant the same thing.

RegDwight

Ceterum censeo Napoli esse delendam?

Robusto

Si.

The new city must be destroyed!

RegDwight

Though the proper case ending would be -eon.

Robusto

Rome destroyed Carthage; now Naples is destroying Napoli.

RegDwight

2:36 PM

History repeats itself.

Robusto

But a shining champion appears to fight the corruption! Silvio Berlusconi!

RegDwight

Shiny!

kiamlaluno

Corsi e ricorsi storici.

Giambattista Vico

Giovanni Battista (Giambattista) Vico or Vigo (23 June 1668 – 23 January 1744) was an Italian political philosopher, rhetorician, historian, and jurist. A critic of modern rationalism and apologist of classical antiquity, Vico's magnum opus is Principi di Scienza Nuova d'intorno alla Comune Natura delle Nazioni, often published in English as New Science, which may be literally translated as "Principles/Origins of New/Renewed Science About/Surrounding the Common Nature of Nations". The work is explicitly presented as a "science of reasoning" (Scienza di ragionare), and includes a dialectic ...

He was Neapolitan.

RegDwight

I suppose he wasn't the only one.

Robusto

James Joyce was very interested in his works.

kiamlaluno

2:40 PM

No, but that would explain why he thought of that.

Robusto

In fact, Finnegans Wake is often called an example of a Viconian cycle.

"Relying on a complex etymology, Vico argues in the Scienza Nuova that civilization develops in a recurring cycle (ricorso) of three ages: the divine, the heroic, and the human. Each age exhibits distinct political and social features and can be characterized by master tropes or figures of language. "

I actually know someone who did her doctoral dissertation on that very topic.

kiamlaluno

You can say you meet Joyce when walking on Trieste.

Robusto

Cool.

kiamlaluno

They didn't place the statue in Naples, or they would have tried to steal its wallet.

Robusto

@kiamlaluno — Hahahaha.

kiamlaluno

2:47 PM

I always thought I laugh in a strange way; now I know why.

RegDwight

@Robusto Wasn't etymology just a popular hobby back then, with little to no grounding in science?

Robusto

@RegDwight — IDK. I think Joyce just liked the symmetry of the theories, and reflected them in the Wake.

I can ask my friend more about it, if you're interested.

RegDwight

I suppose I am, rather than reading the whole thing.

Robusto

I'll shoot her an email. Dunno how long we'll have to wait for a response.

RegDwight

Thanks a bunch.

Hey @Kosmonaut, @nohat, @JSBangs, any thoughts on this?

6

Q: Possible Conference Speaking Sponsorships -- 2011

We're evaluating the feasibility of sponsoring a member of the English community to speak at a conference in 2011. Speaking is a relatively big "ask", so this needs to be planned many months in advance. Let's get started! We'd like the community to establish where ... What relevant english...

discussion conferences speakers-bureau sponsorship

Robusto

2:59 PM

@RegDwight — Why do you only ask linguistics folk?

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…