English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

1:00 PM

Ah, an interesting observation. Though the book is older, methinks.

Yes. And what was ultimately disappointing was Julia's rather muted reactions to Cesar's confession. She made shocked noises and that was about it. Her character was not deep enough, or smart enough, or complex enough to handle the revelations.

RegDwight

Apr 6 at 13:15, by RegDwight

I mean, the only defining characteristic of the heroine I can remember is that she smokes a lot.

Now I am no longer surprised that I don't remember any other characteristics.

Robusto

In fact, if I may say so, it was as if Holmes and Moriarty were having a discussion, and who was present to witness it? Not someone with the mental acumen of a Watson, but someone whose job it was to clean up: Mrs. Hudson.

kiamlaluno

Did they change anything on SE software?

Robusto

But thanks for the suggestion. I enjoyed reading it.

kiamlaluno

1:04 PM

I can cast 24 votes to close questions, now.

RegDwight

@kiamlaluno See my very first post today.

4 hours ago, by RegDwight

3

A: Should available close votes be a function of inflation or rep?

The default # of close votes per day is 12. I just noticed that SU and SF have been at 24 close votes per day per user since ... well, forever. I'm going to go ahead and make 24 close votes per day the new default network-wide to start.

JSBangs

@kiamlaluno is buon only used for compounds like that? the full form is buono, no? (you can tell how little italian i know)

RegDwight

@Robusto Very glad to hear that. Now I must only get you to read The Discovery of Heaven by Mulisch, then I can safely retire.

kiamlaluno

@JSBangs You can also say il buon Andrea.

RegDwight

Not immediately, mind you.

In fact it might make some sense to take a pause before reading that one.

Robusto

1:07 PM

@RegDwight — It's OK. I'm pacing myself, so you're safe for a while.

RegDwight

It's closer to Foucault's Pendulum than to Club Dumas, in terms of... well, everything.

Feb 17 at 20:58, by RegDwight

I mean that there are those books after reading which you can't help but think, OMFG now I know everything about everything ever. Foucault's Pendulum is like that. The Discovery of Heaven is like that. And Out of Control is like that, too.

JSBangs

by whom are all these books of which you speak?

eco?

(umberto)

('cos i've read Foucault's Pendulum but don't recognize the titles of the others)

RegDwight

Pendulum = Eco, Club Dumas and Flanders Panel = Perez-Reverte. Discovery of Heaven = Mulisch.

Out of Control is by Kevin Kelly and non-fiction.

kiamlaluno

@JSBangs You can also say a buon fine. In some cases, buono is written buon even when the next word starts with consonant: il buon Giacomo.

JSBangs

@kiamlaluno do words other than buon behave this way? is this a general phonological feature of dropping -o when the resulting cluster is licit?

kiamlaluno

1:11 PM

Actually, salvo buon fine is a technical term, used in reference to financial transactions.

@JSBangs Yes; for example, you can say San Pasquale instead of Santo Pasquale, vin santo instead of vino santo.

I think it's just a matter of pronunciation; the o would be a stopper, in some way.

Buon fine is pronounced the same way of buonfine.

Buono fine is buono (slight stop) fine.

I guess it is because the position the lips have when you say o in Italian.

It is even more evident when you say buono pasto.

In this case, buono pasto has a meaning different from buon pasto.

JSBangs

is buon pasto pronounced with assimilation of the /n/, i.e. [bwom'pa.sto]

kiamlaluno

Buono pasto means meal ticket, while buon pasto means good meal.

Kosmonaut

6

Q: Did the underscore character exist before modern computers?

I've noticed that in computer programming, underscores are used extensively to create names that are technically one word long but consist of several different words. For example, C++ has priority_queue or get_temporary_buffer. However, this use case only exists because it's easier for software...

Off-topic, right?

Robusto

Yes.

Kosmonaut

I just wanted to run it by people before unilaterally closing.

RegDwight

1:19 PM

Yeah, I agree.

Kosmonaut

Sometimes I wonder how I totally miss questions like this.

RegDwight

Friday fatigue.

kiamlaluno

@JSBangs In some regions, it is.

JSBangs

it's only thursday

Robusto

Friday? It's only Thursday.

Jinx!

RegDwight

1:21 PM

Jinx!

Robusto

JSBangs owes me a coke.

RegDwight

Meta-Jinx!

Robusto

JJinx!

Kosmonaut

This question is from March, that's why I was surprised.

RegDwight

Meta-meta-Jinx!

Robusto

1:21 PM

JJinx = meta-Jinx

RegDwight

Yes, hence meta-meta-Jinx.

In related news,

JSBangs

i kinda disagree. i think it's on-topic

RegDwight

0

A: Difference between "invoice" and "bill"?

guys u make it too complicated. In short: Bill : an account of money owed for goods etc e.g. An electricity bill Invoice: a list sent with goods giving details of price & quantity

@JSBangs I'm afraid it's not specific to English.

JSBangs

@RegDwight ok, fine

RegDwight

But it's one of those chicken-and-egg things, that's for certain.

You can't tell if a question is really off-topic without answering it.

I mean, what if it was FDR who invented _?

Kosmonaut

1:23 PM

If I can ask about the history of the underscore on keyboards, can I ask about the history the QWERTY keyboard layout?

Or the history of the ƒ symbol?

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut The thing is, what if you're genuinely convinced that QWERTY is only used in the English-speaking world?

Robusto

@RegDwight — Everyone knows it was Shakespeare who invented the QWERTY keyboard. Come on, people.

kiamlaluno

Is there anybody whose last name is Qwerty?

RegDwight

@Robusto "RegDwight" is a rather awful misspelling of "Kosmonaut".

kiamlaluno

"Hello, I am Albert Qwerty."

RegDwight

1:25 PM

"I have that Theory of Relativity..."

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight Well, if it is this one person's wacky belief, it is probably too localized. Right?

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut Yes. The thing is, saying "this is one person's wacky belief" amounts to answering the question.

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight It's "I have that Theory of Relativerty."

Robusto

@RegDwight — Blame the SE chat software.

JSBangs

if i retag every single one of Yoichi's questions with meaning-in-context, do you think he'll get the hint and start using the tag himself?

RegDwight

1:26 PM

@Robusto Never. I will blame you instead. Always.

@JSBangs He might. Though sometimes he still uses zero formatting.

kiamlaluno

@JSBangs Is there the need to use that tag?

RegDwight

2 days ago, by JSBangs

we have a fair number of questions that boil down to "I don't understand what this passage of writing means" (Yoichi is especially fond of these), which seems to me to be different from "I don't understand what this acontextual idiom/phrase means". yet we don't have any tag that seems to apply to these questions other than the execrable meaning

JSBangs

what @RegDwight said

RegDwight

No, what JSBangs quoted.

kiamlaluno

Isn't a meaning in context still a meaning?

meaning-in-context seems a meta tag, to me.

JSBangs

1:28 PM

i'm too modest to take credit

RegDwight

Isn't a verb still a part of speech?

@kiamlaluno "Meta" doesn't mean that.

JSBangs

@kiamlaluno it's definitely not a meta-tag. it could be considered a subset of meaning, but IMHO that's not a problem

RegDwight

Having a tag hierarchy is perfectly fine.

A meta tag would be "english" or "question", because it tells you nothing.

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight Is anybody interested in questions about meaning-in-context, rather than meaning?

Once you see who asked the question, you already know he is asking the meaning of a phrase in a specific context.

RegDwight

I might know what the word "set" means in general. But in a given context, I might have no idea.

kiamlaluno

1:31 PM

@RegDwight In that case, you will not answer.

RegDwight

OP's perspective, kiamlaluno. Not mine.

Replace "I" with "one", if you wish.

JSBangs

@kiamlaluno somebody might be interested in not answering those kinds of questions, and they'll appreciate having the tag so they can filter them

kiamlaluno

To me, having meaning-in-context is like having [tag:verb-when-followed-by-a-preposition].

RegDwight

Well, there is phrasal-verbs.

JSBangs

@kiamlaluno we have phrasal-verbs for that

jinx

RegDwight

1:33 PM

Yeah yeah, here's your 7up.

JSBangs

give it to @Robusto since i owe him

kiamlaluno

I would rather split meaning-in-context in meaning and context.

RegDwight

Him don't likes them sevens-ups.

JSBangs

@kiamlaluno in any case, overly specific tags is not something that we deal with much, here. much of my retagging crusade has been breaking down broad tags into something more specific

kiamlaluno

It's just my opinion, anyway.

@JSBangs That is understood; still, I don't think that a tag should be created just for questions made from a user.

RegDwight

1:36 PM

Oh, make no mistake, it's not just Yoichi who asks such questions.

kiamlaluno

Yet, I don't see why a different tag has been split in two, and this tag could not be split in two.

JSBangs

@kiamlaluno which different tag?

RegDwight

The thing is, meaning-in-context is one specific tag. It's not the same as using a combination of two unspecific tags.

kiamlaluno

@JSBangs If just I could recall which one, that would help. :-)

Martha

@kiamlaluno Because, like @RegDwight just said, it means something different than the sum of its parts.

RegDwight

1:42 PM

Taggin a question syntax is certainly better than tagging it words and sentence.

kiamlaluno

I remember it was you to edit it (if I remember it right).

RegDwight

Which of our you's?

JSBangs

were you referring to @Martha's suggestion to use grammar and terminology rather than creating grammatical-terminology ?

Martha

2

Q: The plan for [grammar]

The tag grammar is one of our most highly-used tags, though it is, unfortunately, so vague as to be nearly useless. I submit the following proposal as a way to break up this tag into something useful. Following nohat's answer, questions about the grammatical acceptability of a particular senten...

discussion tagging retagging

RegDwight

Semi-jinx.

God, I need a Jinx macro today.

Martha

1:44 PM

Yeah, yeah. @JSBangs and I are sharing a brain today.

RegDwight

And someone to drink all that stuff.

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight We are not talking of syntax; your example would be perfect if the we were talking of words-sentence.

JSBangs

words-in-sentences

RegDwight

Yeah well, if you mean that we should keep tag names short, I wholeheartedly agree @kiamlaluno.

JSBangs

[tag:words-which-begin-with-the-letter-a]

kiamlaluno

1:45 PM

@RegDwight I was referring to @JSBangs.

Martha

@JSBangs I guess that's too long for the tag parser.

RegDwight

[tag:words-which-end-with-the-letter-a]

Still too long.

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight It is also a matter of choosing a better tag.

RegDwight

[tag:words-that-end-with-letters]

kiamlaluno

words-that-end

RegDwight

1:47 PM

Ah, screw that, let's just use words.

Martha

abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxy

kiamlaluno

[tag:tag:tag]

It's not recursive.

RegDwight

Martha has invented the blinking tag! Run!

Martha

The limit is 25 characters, it looks like.

kiamlaluno

tag-tag

What a tag!

RegDwight

1:49 PM

@Martha Makes total sense. We don't want no freaking pangrams on this site!

kiamlaluno

pane-grammi

Martha

Ok, kids, I gotta run, busy day today. Have fun!

RegDwight

CU.

JSBangs

@kiamlaluno i'm open for suggestions on renaming the tag, for sure

kiamlaluno

I usually buy bread in hectograms, but I will not complain.

What is about contextual-meaning?

RegDwight

1:51 PM

Same difference. Could be made synonyms anytime.-

nimcap

hello

RegDwight

Hi @nimcap.

nimcap

I need help with an expression

I want to say I am enjoying the thing I am doing in a formal context (resume)

kiamlaluno

Well, it sounds better than meaning-in-context, to me.

nimcap

"I am doing my PhD and I am enjoying it greatly."

is this correct?

RegDwight

1:52 PM

Lemme ping a native speaker. Hey @JSBangs.

kiamlaluno

At least it would not suggest that meaning-in-refrigerator is a possible new tag. ;-)

nimcap

What happens when you ping?

can you ping me?

RegDwight

I can! @nimcap!

nimcap

a-ha!

kiamlaluno

@nimcap We surely can!

RegDwight

1:53 PM

Jinx etc.

nimcap

I hear it!

JSBangs

"I am doing my PhD and enjoying it greatly" <-- sounds fine to me

slightly informal

but not too informal for a resume, IMHO

kiamlaluno

What do you say when you put something in a can, "I can"?

"I can tomatoes."

RegDwight

Here @kiamlaluno, have your non-sequitur-of-the-day badge.

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight Oh, wow. Why thank you.

RegDwight

1:55 PM

Because!

JSBangs

@kiamlaluno that's correct. You can can just like you said.

RegDwight

So that is what Obama was promising the whole time!

2

kiamlaluno

Amazing!

RegDwight

Teh awesum!

kiamlaluno

Well, it's a kind of half promise: he didn't say what we can.

RegDwight

1:57 PM

He will only reveal that after getting re-elected.

Otherwise, tough luck!

kiamlaluno

Does "handsome" means I have many hands?

RegDwight

No, only some. D'oh!

kiamlaluno

Or is it a short for "hand me some ..."?

RegDwight

0

Q: Confusion in Verbs

Pick out the Verbs in the following sentences: 1.After loitering for ten minutes ,the boy walked away. 2.Since winning the prize ,he has been boasting about it to everyone. 3.Having settled himself into the armchair,he picked up the newspaper to read. First pick out verbs then kindly explain: Are...

verbs

The curse of homework questions has arrived wholesale in a mixed metaphor.

kiamlaluno

It must be sale season.

RegDwight

1:59 PM

We must be getting really popular.

nimcap

@JSBangs: Thank you very much

kiamlaluno

Can I say "you are facesome"?

RegDwight

You can say anything you want.

Yes, you can!

Kosmonaut

Thagfid dogglenoss

@RegDwight Hey, you're right.

RegDwight

No news to me. shrug

JSBangs

2:09 PM

0

A: Confusion in Verbs

Lotering, walked winning, boasting settled, picked (up) Loitering and winning are not being used as nouns.

i don't think that this is correct, but i'm unsure of my analysis

i think that loitering and winning may actually be gerunds in the OP's examples

Kosmonaut

@JSBangs I agree, and also you probably should at least acknowledge "having" in the third one.

Not sure if there is a verb going on there either.

RegDwight

"After" and "since" are kind of a giveaway, innit?

Kosmonaut

Also, you could put possessive pronouns in front of them.

That's another giveaway.

RegDwight

Okay, who's gonna tell aliya to ease up?

0

Q: What is the difference between "begin" and "start"

The children are eager to 'start' the novel or The children are eager to 'begin'the novel

vocabulary

JSBangs

@RegDwight the problem is that those can also be conjunctions: After he went to the store he ate some pie. here went is clearly a finite verb

RegDwight

2:13 PM

Right.

JSBangs

so you could argue that after winning the match is conjunction + absolutive participle

Kosmonaut

@JSBangs I figured he meant having it directly following the preposition.

RegDwight

Right.

JSBangs

woah! I was just the victim of a downvote storm!

RegDwight

Do tell.

JSBangs

2:18 PM

i'm guessing that it's this guy:

RegDwight

I think I can see him.

JSBangs

ssaalif

1

word-choice nouns

i downvoted his answer, and now he's going on a rampage

no big deal, the system will clear out his votes in a few hours

RegDwight

Um, no. Zero votes.

I see a different user.

JSBangs

then who?

RegDwight

I have no idea if I should disclose it. @Kosmonaut?

JSBangs

2:19 PM

i don't think i can see whatever page you're looking at to find this out

Kosmonaut

Erg, I don't think so.

JSBangs

you don't have to tell

or were you implying that @Kosmonaut is the culprit?

RegDwight

Hahahaha.

I mean, YES.

Kosmonaut

Haha

RegDwight

Jinx.

@Kosmonaut: Should he be annotated or something?

Kosmonaut

2:20 PM

(Laugh, but don't laugh TOO hard. You don't want to arouse suspicion.)

kiamlaluno

@JSBangs To down vote requires a reputation of at least 125 points.

RegDwight

Yes, it sucks to have to fly over to the States every time I want to post as my alter ego Kosmonaut.

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight If it's a significant amount then yes.

kiamlaluno

That user cannot down vote, nor up vote.

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut Check it out yourself.

I would say that's as significant as it could possibly get.

JSBangs

2:22 PM

@RegDwight can you provide a link to the page which lets you see recent vote activity? i'm curious as to whether this is a mod-only tool, or i just can't find it

Kosmonaut

Am I looking in "suspicious vote patterns"?

RegDwight

No. Those are useless. Go to JSBangs' user page, then check his vote history.

Kosmonaut

Yeesh

RegDwight

That's the brightest red I've ever seen.

Kosmonaut

That's quite a rampage.

Annotate away

RegDwight

2:27 PM

I'll try my very best.

JSBangs

i'm pretty sure that whatever you guys are looking at, it's not something that i can see

RegDwight

Of course not! We're awesome. Sheesh.

kiamlaluno

@JSBangs It's a moderators thing.

Moderators can see who voted whom.

JSBangs

gawd, @lovespring just posted something with words

Eldros

Could someone explains to me what is so different at the differences tag that it couldn't be a synonym of word-choice?

RegDwight

2:37 PM

@JSBangs I had to retag this morning, too. Perhaps now it's time to post a request for blacklisting on meta.

@Eldros Never understood that one, either.

Me, I use word-choice.

JSBangs

differences asks "What is the difference between A and B?"

word-choice asks "Should I use A or B in this situation?"

some questions could arguably take either (or both)

RegDwight

Ah... interesting.

So you're saying the difference is pretty much the same as with meaning vs meaning-in-context.

JSBangs

that's one way of looking at it

RegDwight

Okay.

Eldros

@JSBangs for me the two questions are interchangeable.

RegDwight

2:40 PM

I'll have a closer look some time.

Gotta do some work right now. Brb.

JSBangs

there is much work that i should do, little that i am doing

Eldros

there is a meaning-in-context tag? Aren't we splitting hair at this point?

@JSBangs ditto

JSBangs

@Eldros we were just talking about this

i'm creating a tag wiki now for it

Eldros

Seriously, I can only wonder about some of the tags here.

JSBangs

2 days ago, by JSBangs

we have a fair number of questions that boil down to "I don't understand what this passage of writing means" (Yoichi is especially fond of these), which seems to me to be different from "I don't understand what this acontextual idiom/phrase means". yet we don't have any tag that seems to apply to these questions other than the execrable meaning

Eldros

2:49 PM

Imagine having a code in SO

or code-line

JSBangs

@Eldros we are working hard to improve the tag situation

it's been the topic of frequest discussion, especially over the past few days

RegDwight

Well, JSBangs is working hard. We're just onlooking.

JSBangs

i went on a one-man rampage to retag every single question that was marked words a few days ago

and there are open meta threads about fixing usage and grammar