English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

MrHen

20:01

@Fx Very nice.

Martha

@Fx No.

Robusto

@Fx — I told you, they are cutting back. No more gift baskets.

I think mine was the last one they gave out.

Martha

Besides, it's not fair. You got to 10K in two months. I'm barely scratching 7K after 5 months. Hmph.

F'x

well, I have kind of kept this browser window open all day, all that time

Robusto

Ahem ...

Jan 28 at 15:19, by Kosmonaut

Not everybody can be like Robusto and get there in less than 2 months.

Note the "less than" ...

F'x

20:07

visited 80 days, 80 consecutive

so it's more 3 months than 2

Robusto

Are we speaking the same language?

F'x

@Robusto I'm writing, actually

Robusto

@Martha — You work too hard, that's your problem. You're always like "I gotta go work!"

Martha

@Robusto Nem. Miért kéne ugyanazt a nyelvet beszéljük?

F'x

looking back, I've got most of my rep from high-voted answers on easy questions, just because I was there at the right time

Robusto

20:09

@Fx — I was indulging in a mild gloat at your expense.

Martha

@Robusto I blame my boss.

Robusto

@Martha — Try thwacking him/her.

F'x

@Robusto there are three things I'm still bad at in English: humour, going to the doctor, and ordering food

Martha

@Robusto I would, but I'm kind of attached to the concept of a paycheck, meager as it may be.

Cerberus

I'm going to sell my account here when it gets to 10k.

Robusto

20:12

I think the going rate is $.0001 per rep point.

F'x

well, I know one you can buy, if you want to resell it later :)

Cerberus

Probably to Apple or something, so that they may subtly influence the SE community with commercials and other wrong tech specs.

Robusto

Speaking of work, Eeeek! I gotta go do some!

Cerberus

Nice!

Have fun, eek.

F'x

now, next privilege is "protect question"

Cerberus

20:13

Yay!

F'x

how's that for motivating people?!

Cerberus

Yeah it sounds like a lame spell.

Maybe you chose the wrong upgrade branch?

RegDwight

Wait, what? Fx is partying w/o candies?

Mar 3 at 11:11, by RegDwight

Candy

Candy, specifically sugar candy, is a confection made from a concentrated solution of sugar in water, to which flavorings and colorants are added. Candies come in numerous colors and varieties and have a long history in popular culture. The Middle English word "candy" began to be used in the late 13th century, coming into English from the Old French çucre candi, derived in turn from Arabic qandi and Persian qand, "cane sugar." In North America, candy is a broad category that includes candy bars, chocolates, licorice, sour candies, salty candies, tart candies, hard candies, taffies, gu...

Cerberus

Next time, try choosing "Ass-Kicking Mage" instead of "Weak Support Magician 2nd Class".

RegDwight

Congrats, Fx.

Cerberus

20:15

Oh, yes, that!

Congrats!

F'x

I don't want any of that Ass-Kicking Mage; I already ascended a Healer, and that all I care about!

Cerberus

So would you rather connect a change in ideas to notions, or with notions, or something else?

F'x

@all: thanks

Cerberus

Well if your Healer is drooling over the prospect of being able to protect stuff, then... be my guest!

F'x

@Cerberus either seems fine by me, and fine by the NOAD

Cerberus

20:17

Ah, good. Thanks.

That's what I thought... though I think I'd choose "to" myself.

RegDwight

If you don't want to get to 15k, try getting back to 5k in two months. How's that for a challenge?

F'x

now that I can see deleted posts, I can measure the extent of the censoring exerted by the mods!

Cerberus

A challenge indeed!

RegDwight

@Fx Why, sure.

Feb 22 at 9:34, by RegDwight

Also, http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/6656//11620#11620, http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/10260//10264#10264, http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/2035//9898#9898, http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/7469//7473#7473, http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/7468//7471#7471, http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/4241//7359#7359
http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/5831//7138#7138. These are not commercial, but spam nonetheless. And there's lots more.

F'x

@RegDwight I think the T-rex strategy for that is well established

Cerberus

20:18

And, how great is this extent?

RegDwight

@Fx Well, d'oh. Bounties are off-limits, obviously. I didn't mention that because thought you were smart or something.

Cerberus

Intelligence doesn't come with mod tools: how often have we not seen this demonstrated? No offence.

F'x

@RegDwight oh boy, with these links, you've made my day! thanks!

@RegDwight well, I know an easy way to fall back to 1 rep, but it comes with a timeout :)

Cerberus

Gotta go catch train, later!

F'x

@RegDwight: I wonder, how often are closed questions deleted, generally?

RegDwight

20:28

Uh, sorry, was afk checking out Germany's Next Top Model.

So. Where are we?

JSBangs

i'm hungry. why isn't there any candy here?

RegDwight

Mar 25 at 12:34, by RegDwight

I am here to ~~help~~ make days.

F'x

14 mins ago, by RegDwight

Mar 3 at 11:11, by RegDwight

Candy

Candy, specifically sugar candy, is a confection made from a concentrated solution of sugar in water, to which flavorings and colorants are added. Candies come in numerous colors and varieties and have a long history in popular culture. The Middle English word "candy" began to be used in the late 13th century, coming into English from the Old French çucre candi, derived in turn from Arabic qandi and Persian qand, "cane sugar." In North America, candy is a broad category that includes candy bars, chocolates, licorice, sour candies, salty candies, tart candies, hard candies, taffies, gu...

RegDwight

@JSBangs You have to be Hungary to get some candy.

Rule no. 1 of this chat room.

JSBangs

@Fx mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

F'x

20:30

@RegDwight now, let's wait for the thwacking

RegDwight

@Fx Most closed questions are dupes. So they stick around.

F'x

so dupes should stick around? even if they have no answer?

RegDwight

@Fx That's why I didn't say 1 rep, I said 5k.

D'oh, nobody listens to me!

Fall back to 5k, not 1, without using bounties.

JSBangs

@Fx yes, so that if somebody finds they dup they can be directed to the real answer

RegDwight

Everything else ain't a challenge.

4

A: Etiquette on duplicate questions

First of all, there's an official blog post on handling duplicate questions. It differentiates between three types of dupes: Cut-and-paste duplicate questions. These questions are the very definition of exact duplicates; they are typically from users who willfully take the very same questi...

JSBangs

20:32

dups (provided they are marked as such) actually provide a service, as they're additional surface area for catching people looking for a particular answer with alternate wordings, etc.

RegDwight

Bingo.

Kosmonaut

New Swedish candy store opened in Manhattan a couple weeks ago

RegDwight

That's NY candies. Them's doesn't count.

Kosmonaut

Swedish.

SWEDISH.

RegDwight

Yeah yeah.

JSBangs

20:34

@RegDwight correct is Them's don't count

Kosmonaut

The entire place is totally white. It's like the Apple Store of candy.

RegDwight

Mar 23 at 15:18, by RegDwight

That's what they call Etikettenschwindel in Germany.

Just label stuff "swedish" and them US of Americans will swallow it. Like, literally.

@JSBangs Duly noted.

F'x

@Kosmonaut gosh, so most people can't afford any of the articles they offer? that's terrible for a candy store!

RegDwight

@Fx I have a few articles right here, very affordable indeed: der, dem, des.

Kosmonaut

@Fx They don't offer articles, they offer candy!!

RegDwight

20:36

OMG. Zwei Idioten, ein Gedanke.

F'x

you've been together for too long :)

Kosmonaut

We went there this past weekend

It is all one price, mix and match

RegDwight

I didn't went anywhere.

Kosmonaut

We got really excited and ended up spending $36.

F'x

$36, is that including tax or not? and the dentist’s fees?

RegDwight

20:38

Oh, oh, oh, @Kosmonaut! Was going to ask you what you think of this:

5

Q: Why there's a difference between the two common appearances of the letter “a”?

Luckily the forum is using Georgia typeface, so both can be easily shown below: a vs a

typesetting

Kosmonaut

Including tax. Dentist fee is separate.

@RegDwight Uh. Every letter has different versions.

RegDwight

Yes, especially in Russian.

JSBangs

@Kosmonaut no, i think this is a legit question, though not really an english question

Kosmonaut

I am tempted to answer this: "because if there weren't a difference then how would we know there are two of them?"

RegDwight

The thing is, we weren't sure where to migrate.

10 hours ago, by RegDwight

Graphic Design? I dunno.

JSBangs

20:40

unless you can prove to me that English usage is significantly different from French, etc. in this case

typography.se

Kosmonaut

@JSBangs Agreed.

RegDwight

10 hours ago, by RegDwight

LaTeX might be a better fit, actually.

F'x

@JSBangs strongly seconded

don't know why it didn't gather the votes for closing

Kosmonaut

It doesn't belong here for sure.

RegDwight

But I don't want it to die completely. Just a little.

F'x

20:41

well, just like we need a meta-question “silly question” to close many others as dupe, we need a meta-SE “Generic yet-to-be-opened”.SE to migrate questions to

RegDwight

Of course, we could ask in the Teachers' Lounge, but I'm not sure how responsive these particular sites' mods are.

@Fx You are being too kind. On MSO, it's called Toilet Bowl.

JSBangs

anyway, i'm off till tomorrow

bye

RegDwight

CU.

F'x

@RegDwight I don't know how you noticed, but it is a problem with me. I'm working on it.

RegDwight

Work harder, being rude aligns very well with your goal of reaching 5k.

F'x

20:44

Sorry, may I correct that: I'm working on it, you asshole

RegDwight

Much better!

I think I will deduct a few k from your rep just for the effort alone.

Kosmonaut

deduce?

MrHen

3

Q: Calling up a cat

In Russian when we want to call up a cat we say ks-ks-ks. What is the usual way to call it up in English?

single-word-requests

Really?

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut Sorry, should be induce.

F'x

actually, let's say I have an important deadline at work next week, can you give me a timed suspension so that I can make sure to be productive for a few days?

RegDwight

20:47

@Fx Meh, where's the fun in that? Timed suspensions come best as total surprises!

Kosmonaut

How about a timed explosion?

RegDwight

Feb 11 at 15:10, by Robusto

This chat will self-destruct in 5 minutes. You have 5 minutes to get clear of the chat room.

F'x

in the tools window, one of the answers is marked as "up:2 dn:1 of:1 15:2"

up and down I get, "of" is probably "offensive flag", but what is "15"?

Kosmonaut

2

RegDwight

@Fx Where do you see that crazy shite?

Kosmonaut

20:50

@Fx It is the number of times leetspeak was invoked.

15 stands for leetspeak.

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut Dude, your so rong.

Kosmonaut

NO U R!

RegDwight

1337 are not 15.

F'x

what does “was invoked” mean? Invoked by whom?

RegDwight

@Fx By Elvis the Pelvis.

F'x

20:53

RegDwight

@Fx Which tab is that?

F'x

english.stackexchange.com/tools/votes-hot

RegDwight

8

A: What do "bs", "bc" and all the other abbreviations mean in "Recent Posts with Most Vote Velocity" page?

Had to go look at the code for this because I couldn't parse some of them either. ac = Accepted up = UpVote dn = DownVote of = Offensive Flag fv = Favorite cl = Vote to Close op = Vote to Reopen bs = Bounty Started (on questions only) bc = Bounty Closed (this vote is cast on the answer that rece...

Still no 15, however.

I think @Kosmo is wright after alls.

Hm, BS doesn't mean what I thought it would mean.

F'x

but what leetspeak? We don't have any flag specific to that, do we?

RegDwight

Mar 22 at 19:15, by RegDwight

Joke

A joke is a question, short story, or depiction of a situation made with the intent of being humorous. To achieve this end, jokes may employ irony, sarcasm, word play and other devices. Jokes may have a punchline that will end the sentence to make it humorous. A practical joke or prank differs from a spoken one in that the major component of the humour is physical rather than verbal (for example placing salt in the sugar bowl). Purpose Jokes are typically for the entertainment of friends and onlookers. The desired response is generally laughter; when this does not happen the joke is...

Anyhow, I gotta go, actually.

CU tomorrow. Night all.

Kosmonaut

21:00

l8rz

MrHen

@Fx Perhaps upvote:downvote of answers?

Kosmonaut

@MrHen I bet you're right

Cerberus

21:50

Hi.

Martha

Greetings.

F'x

1

Q: What is the “15” category in the “Recent Posts with Most Vote Velocity” page?

Seen on the /tools/votes-hot page: I got the various abbreviations from there, but what is the 15?

bug

Billare

@Cerberus Do you have any recommendations for any massive tomes of English history?

@Cerberus I'm talking massive histories. Think Gibbon.

Cerberus

@Billare: Oh, hmm, to be honest I don't know that much about English history.

Billare

@Cerberus I remember reading this beautiful book of European history at around the age of 12 borrowed from the local library, that went from Charlemagne all the way down to the 15th century, going from everything from political intrigues to coronations for every country. Haven't found a book like that since

Cerberus

22:00

@Billa: I think there are a great many good books on all sorts of historical topics. I don't happen to know what the canonical works are on English history... do you have a specific period of history in mind, and a period of writing?

Billare

@Cerberus Really interested in learning about the different Lords and Dukes...how the peerage was created, the machinations of kings in controlling the nobility from the Norman invasion on

Cerberus

Okay, that sounds like political history.

Anything from 1066 to present?

Cerberus

22:19

@Billare: This book might be a start:

books.google.com/…

England and its rulers, 1066-1272
By M. T. Clanchy

Billare

@Cerberus You're right with this, I should have been searching Google books to find what I want..

Cerberus

@Billa: Yeah. It is still hard to find a book that gives an overview of English political history of the past millennium.

But since Gibbon's DaFotRE comprised several volumes as well, you might not be averse to reading several books, each about a certain period.

Billare

22:33

@Cerberus Indeed. But I like a lighthearted style, as well.

@Cerberus Something that shows the author appreciates the history. It shouldn't be strictly academic.

@Cerberus Shouldn't be afraid to poke fun at the characters.

@Cerberus How do you interpret this? ngrams.googlelabs.com/…

@Cerberus What could have happened in 1800?

Alain Pannetier

Hello everyone !

@Billare @Billare For a book on English History that's the Size of Gibbon's or Momsen equivalent for Roman History, have a look at The History of England of Macauley. But be warned: it's hard to read.

Still don't manage to quote a line !!!

Martha

22:51

bluifh? WTH?

(Did someone at Google have trouble properly transcribing a long S?)

Cerberus

@Martha and @Billare: Yes, that looks clearly like auto-scanned long s wrongly recognized as f. I don't think any of Google's books are copied by hand?

Billare

@Alain Ok, will check out.

@Martha I'd venture that a significant number of long "s"s got transcribed as fs, yes, especially since many of them were probably done by CAPTCHA, making people not aware of context so they couldn't interpret and transcribe the way according to proper semantics.

LONG RUN ON SENTENCE SORRY

Cerberus

Note that Macauley was a true Whig historian: he interpreted all of English history as a teleological process towards liberalism.

Alain Pannetier

However, a book on that very topic that I've read several times is that one. I've read it in French.

But there is an English translation.

Cerberus

@Billa: Do they also use Recaptcha for pre-1800 books? I don't think I have ever seen any long s in a captcha...

Billare

22:59

@Cerberus I didn't honestly know there was a distinction.

@Alain @Cerberus Ooh, I have a problem with Whig history.

Alain Pannetier

@Billare It gives a nice panorama, has all the genealogy. And it's beautifully written.

@Cerberus, indeed Macauley is very old fashioned. I mentioned it because it's the same order of magnitude in number of pages as Gibbon's history of the Roman Empire.

Cerberus

@Billa: A distinction between pre 1800 and post 1800? I don't know anything for sure, but I assumed as much, since I never see anything pre 1800 come by. Might be coincidence.

@Alain: Yes, it might very well be worth the read! I was just giving some background.

No doubt Gibbon was influenced by some in-vogue paradigms as well...

Alain Pannetier

Hey, I just discovered something. To edit your last chat, just press the up arrow.

8

Cerberus

Really? Wow that is pretty awesome!! Thank you for this!! @Alain

Billare

Cool.

That is very, very helpful. @Alain

Cerberus

23:03

It is!

Yay, I most definitely say!

Hey I don't see any starred lines? Are they gone? Or is it just me?

Alain Pannetier

@Cerberus, no I mean you were perfectly right and he is not only labelled as Whig but also boring. I don't think many people have read it entirely. I use it only as "what's got Macauley to say about this ?". About the arrow. You guys are making fun of me...

It's too conspicuous.

I swear I'll have my revenge one day ;-)

Cerberus

@Alain: In fact we are only making fun of ourselves: we really didn't know this!

Billare

@Alain Same...only been using chat for about a week, I think.

Cerberus

@Alain: I don't think I have ever read anything of Macauley except a few pages.

I have been using it for months... but I was clueless.

But are the starred lines also gone for you, @Billa and @Alain?

Where they used to be, I now see a blank space.

Billare

@Alain Do you know why the English and French thrones were so closely intertwined? Before William the Conqueror, I mean.

@Cerberus Starred lines? I don't know what those are.

Alain Pannetier

23:09

@cerberus Sorry I don't either.

@Billare, No I don't have a global explanation. I just love to hoard stories about this topic.

Cerberus

Because the English King (Plantagenet I believe) was the rightful heir to the French throne at some point in the 14th century, at least according to one party. Then the French did their best to circumvent Salian law, so that they could have another, French heir through a female line.

That, besides the Norman conquest, of course.

And proximity, and trade.

Billare

@Alain @Cerberus Are all the European royalty still basically interrelated to this day?

Alain Pannetier

The story (and etymology actually) of the Plantaget family (and name) is actually well described in that book by André Maurois.

Billare

@Alain @Cerberus Just big one happy family feuding over the spoils?

Cerberus

France was arguably the most powerful and most populous state of Western Europe in the late Middle Ages.

@Billa: To a large degree, yes they are still often related.

Billare

23:12

@Alain Where exactly did the "North Men" come from BTW? What part of Scandanavia?

Alain Pannetier

There were undoubtedly only a handful of families like this : the Bourbon, the Habsburgs, The Hohenstauffen, The Hanover The Saxe Coburg Gotha

The Habsburg were interbreeding so much that they gained a very distinctive profile (lip and eyes) visible on many paintings.

Rhodri

@AlainPannetier There's a particularly obvious tracer: Queen Victoria was a carrier of haemophilia, and her children and grandchildren married through a lot of European royalty. A lot of European royalty are haemophiliacs...

Alain Pannetier

The Nothmen came mainly from Jutland (Danes, the same that invaded East Anglia before Alfred the Great) and Norway. IN France, they had distinct territories.

@Rhodri. And it turns out that WW1 actually started like a family feud

Cerberus

@Rhodri: Isn't it also sometimes called The Royal Disease or The Noble Disease, or something similar?

Billare

@Alain Yes, I read about that. Charles II was more inbred than the off-spring of brother sister matings. I don't know how much genetics and stuff you're interested in, but you might enjoy this post. blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/04/…

Alain Pannetier

23:17

With Wilhelm II being the cousin of George V and both grand sons of Victoria

Cerberus

Incidentally, it isn't as though Kings had all the power around Europe: there were a great many other groups with power, such as nobles, parliaments, the Hanseatic league, etc. etc., the Church...

Normally a King wouldn't do things his nobility strongly opposed.

Billare

@Cerberus One thing I am struck by is how crazy family life of a noble was.

Alain Pannetier

@Billare that genealogical tree looks terrible

Cerberus

@Billa: Crazy, in what way?

Billare

@Cerberus You might end up fighting your brother one day for title; and you're very often shipped off to some strange household to learn.

Cerberus

23:19

And in what time?

Billare

@Cerberus You very rarely see your parents; they might be killed for utterly capricious reasons.

@Cerberus If you're a girl, you're married to a guy probably twice your age, and bear 10+ children.

@Cerberus It doesn't seem very familial at all.

Cerberus

@Billa: Oh. Yes, often two brothers grew up separately, and were estranged even more later; then if one felt he was entitled to something, and his support groups added fuel to the fire, tensions would grow over the years, and conflicts might ensue.

Yes, all true.

Alain Pannetier

@Billare, in that respect, what Gibbons says about the Byzantine Emperors is even better than what happenned to European Aristocracy

Cerberus

Oh?

Billare

@Alain Indeed; oh?

Alain Pannetier

23:23

Like new emperors killing all their brothers, (if you were lucky, your brother would only blind you and put you in some minster)

Or throwing you from the top of the rampart

Gibbons reports very few emperors as fair.

Billare

@Alain Right; but thing that many of these histories have going against them is that they are all trying to illustrate moral lessons.

Alain Pannetier

alexius comnenus being the only one I've got in mind now.

Billare

It might be that he's trying to illustrate the dangerous of despotism and the "dangerous" East.

Alain Pannetier

A few examples would probably have sufficed. In my opinion the reason has more to do with the fact that to reach that sort of pinnacle it's probably more of a competitive advantage to be ruthless.

Cerberus

True.

Alain Pannetier

23:28

The problem is that once you've manage to topple the guy that was at the top and take his seat, there's somebody like you waiting for the best moment to do the same to you.

Cerberus

Exactly. You can see the same with many Roman military Emperors.

Alain Pannetier

And that's actually true for all the emperors coming from the praetorian guard in Imperial Rome

Cerberus

Not only from the Praetorian Guard!

Alea iacta est...

Billare

@Alain OTOH, people really did seem to believe back then there were really established family lines in the proper order of things. E.g., after Cromwell, Parliament reprimanded itself and said itself that it exceeded its own powers.

@Alain And they referred to Anne Boleyn as a whore, even though she was the daughter of an Earl.

Cerberus

It is just a complex of all kinds of different factors.

Morality, PR, power...

Alain Pannetier

23:31

Because they were afraid of the vacuum and wanted to put Charles II back on the throne.

Cerberus

The strangest contradictions ensued from time to time.

Alain Pannetier

@Cerberus, do you mind disclosing what Univ you're in ?

I worked in Den Haag last year

at T-Mobile

Cerberus

Amsterdam

Oh, cool!

Alain Pannetier

Actually that was 2 years ago.

Cerberus

Did you live in Den Haag?

Alain Pannetier

23:33

In Scheveningen actually.

spelling is probably wrong ;-)

Cerberus

Haha and I bet you couldn't pronounce it. No, spelling is perfect.

By the beach?

The right parts of Scheveningen are nice.

Billare

@Cerberus How do you have such good English btw?

Alain Pannetier

Nearly - The wrong side of the blocks - The fondest memory I have is cycling evrery day to the office - passing Madurodam

Billare

@Cerberus You don't even sound foreign, you use the idioms and such naturally.

Cerberus

@Billa: Thanks! I am constantly rejecting wrong idioms that pop into my head, though...

Ah Madurodam! Yes, that summarizes the Dutch spirit rather well.

Everything should be small and neat, no bravura or anything grand.

Alain Pannetier

23:37

@Billare - Dutch cheat - Friesland, still a dialect in The Netherlands is home to the closest modern language to English.

Cerberus

True.

I don't speak Frisian... but I can understand some of it naturally, if they speak slowly.

Billare

@Alain Pannetier Frisian? How difficult would it be to learn for the average English speaker?

@Alain Pannetiers Has not your language corrupted us utterly?

Alain Pannetier

The pronounciation is terrible (looks like High German spoken in Switzerland): but many Saxon words are very close cognates.

Cerberus

@Billa: Compared to German and Dutch? I suppose Frisian would be a bit easier, but it probably won't come without effort. I doubt whether you would understand much of it if you heard it. You could try a YT video to test.

Alain Pannetier

bread, butter

Ah and also, they have many TV channels in English with nearly no subtitles.

Cerberus

23:41

@Alain: Do you know where they speak High German in Switzerland? I was wondering about that.

Billare

@Cerberus Did you learn English quite young?

Alain Pannetier

Around Bern and Zurich I guess. I've also worked in Zurich. I could make myself understand but I couldn't understand local people very well.

Cerberus

@Billa: We had English class beginning when I was 12 I think.

In high school.

Billare

@Cerberus Is it fashionable in the Netherlands to teach your kids English quite young?

@Cerberus Basically, I'm wondering if English has the status on the Continent that it has in the Asian countries, where everybody is trying to learn English

Cerberus

@Alain: That's what I thought... but then Wiki says Berner Patriziat speaks a kind of German that is much farther off from High German than the German I hear on Swiss radio?

@Billa: Yes, English is the lingua Franca all over Europe (sorry, Alain). Everybody uses it with foreigners.

Alain Pannetier

23:44

You're right I'm not qualified to say it's high German. However rural dialect names for game and cattle seem archaic.

Cerberus

But I had about 3 hours of English, 3 French, and 3 German in high school: much of my English I learnt from television and the internet, as most Europeans do.

Billare

@Cerberus Does it bother the taste-makers in your countries like it bothers the French? L'Anglicisme

Cerberus

Scratch television: in most large countries tv is dubbed.

Alain Pannetier

@Cerberus, no need to apologise I can't agree more. Meanwhile the etymology of Lingua Franca should tell you France had its turn in the past.

Billare

@Alain Pannetier Very true. You dominated for 800 years.

Cerberus

23:46

@Billa: Yes, very much so. In Dutch, noun adjectives are attached to their head noun: kitchen table = keukentafel. If you write it unattached, that is called English Disease.

Alain Pannetier

@Billare. I was born at the wrong time. Now I need to learn English :-D

Cerberus

@Alain: True! And French is still looked up to by most of us.

If you want to sound posh in Dutch, you will use a French word here and there, at the right places (not at the wrong places or you'll be perceived as middle class, hehe).

Billare

@Cerberus You mean in Dutch too?

Alain Pannetier

Also Old English and German and Frisian all put infinitives at the end. English lost that around the end of OE when the church came in.

Cerberus

@Billa: Yes, sorry that's what I meant (I think we use even more French words than English does; by that I mean real, modern French words, not the ones you guys borrowed centuries ago).

Rhodri

23:51

Hey, we still borrow French words if we want sound posh.

Cerberus

For example, shaking a bowl of salad is called fatigueren. A rare word, but appropriate if you want to make a good impression in Dutch.

Rhodri

It's almost de rigeur

Cerberus

@Rhodri: You do! But I think we use more French.

Alain Pannetier

Yes we say "fatiguer la salade". Wow I'm impressed.

Cerberus

Menus at fancy, old-fashioned parties are still in French.

Billare

23:52

@Rhodri @Cerberus I find alot of people who use big French words in affected manner really don't know how to use them...they will literally interpolate je ne sais quoi for "I don't know what" for example

Cerberus

For the 30-year anniversary of my parents' wedding, my brother translated the Dutch menu into French, as that is de rigueur. With lots of mistakes, alas...

@Billa: Yeah using French is not without risk!

Alain Pannetier

Guys, I think you're all more than ready for french.stackexchange.com - see you in area51. Just joking.

Rhodri

@Billare Yes, wanting to sound posh and actually sounding posh are two different things.

Cerberus

Yay!

Billare

@Alain Pannetier You know, I took French in high school. Sadly to say, it was not my best subject. I could have focused more. But alot of it stuck with me, the roots of things and such.

Cerberus

23:54

I'd like to tell everybody how to speak French at French.se, that would be fun. Now to improve my French first... such a fuss...

Billare

@Alain Pannetier I can read it, with some difficulty. But ultimately my interest has failed to perk up because ultimately, French is not worth learning for an American. I was lucky to be born into English which is now the dominant lingua franca.

@Alain If I'm going to get into foreign languages, the practical choice will probably be Mandarin.

Cerberus

I still haven't found a pattern in when French is good and when it is bad. About half of the French words regularly used in Dutch are bad. Very confusing.

Alain Pannetier

@Billare. So true. And it will still be that way for quite some time.

Cerberus

@Billa: Lucky bastard!

Alain Pannetier

I've started Mandarin several times. It does not have the beauty of English

Cerberus

23:56

Hmm no, is it ugly?

Even less grammar than English, or so I've heard?

Alain Pannetier

It's imprecise.

Cerberus

Oh dear.

That seems to bode ill...

Alain Pannetier

What happened is that, being a very old language, all basic words are only one syllable.

Even family names (to the exception of one) are only one syllable.

Cerberus

With tonal differences?

Alain Pannetier

And there are only about 50 of them

Cerberus

23:58

Only 50 family names? Wow.

Alain Pannetier

Yes Mandarin has 4 tones + the light tone. Cantonese has 9.

Cerberus

Yikes.

Alain Pannetier

Yes divide 1.3 billion people by 50...

Got the idea ?

Cerberus

I once learnt that nar was sun in Cantonese...?

Rhodri

Yikes

Cerberus

23:59

Yeah just as every Korean is called Kim.

Billare

@Cerberus Same thing happened in Korea

Cerberus

Jinx!

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…