The Sand Trap

3:01 PM

if the idol rule can be circumvented (theres a better word for this), then cannot the rule about strangulation fall into it too?

Adám

If one takes perfectly kosher meat (from proper slaughter and salting), and someone says, "Behold, this is a sacrifice to Baal" it becomes forbidden and requires a ratio of 1:1000 with permitted food to be permitted (the normal ratio for improperly slaughtered or impure species is 1:60).

Seggan

or the strangulation rule can be thought of as an extension of the blood rule

Adám

Not at all. One is a purity rule, the other an idol worship rule. They have entirely different laws.

Seggan

@Adám ah, but christians will say "Baal is a false god, there is no god but God, so that makes the sacrifice invalid"

thats what the above passage is talking about

Adám

Exactly. So you see it cannot be extended to e.g. impure species.

Seggan

3:03 PM

@Adám "[tell] them to abstain from food polluted by idols"

@Adám i getcha

but did not God say in Peter's vision, "What God has made clean, you must not call profane."?

or in the kjv, it says "you must not call unclean"

Adám

Fair enough. In fact, I do something similar with my shoes, which proudly have a tiny Danish flag on them. A rabbi told me I should cut it off as it contains a Nordic cross, a symbol of idol worship (Jewish law considers Christianity idol worship for Jews, but permitted for gentiles). I countered that by doing so, I would acknowledge the idol worship, but by ignoring it, I'd be signalling to God that I consider it of no significance. He conceded to me after some time.

But surely, what God has made unclean, you must not call holy.

Seggan

sure, but it is no longer unclean either

Mark chapter 7:

Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”
After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

here it is explicitly

Adám

That's heresy by Jewish law.

Seggan

is not the whole "allowing christians to eat any food" heresy too? ;)

thats what we are discussing, i am bringing up the passages where we get our permission from

Adám

Possibly, but you can argue that the prohibition of meat dedicated to idol worship never applies as idols don't exist. We have such arguments too. However, you cannot argue that the Torah doesn't define pure and impure animals.

E.g. in the rules for the wayward and rebellious son, it speaks in singular about the voices of the parents, to which the Talmud says that it means they have to have identical voices, and if the mother has a male voice, she must be infertile, and similarly for the father, and therefore such a case cannot happen!

Seggan

3:15 PM

so God has put an impossible case in the Torah?

Adám

Yes, a couple of them. Also the case of a fallen city.

Seggan

@Adám also on food given to idols: "You should not forge a treaty with the locals, then stray after their idols, slaughter to those idols, and be invited by them to eat from such offerings" Exodus 34:15

Adám

Right, the above reasoning is definitely a stretch, but you could again argue that it is an impossible case.

(Which reminds me that I need to ask if it isn't a possibility that a parent developed hormonal issues after the son's birth.)

Seggan

@Adám how? specifically the word "then"?

Adám

"slaughter to those idols" which idols‽ They don't exist!

1

A: Why would the Torah give us mitzvot that will never actually happen?

In a shiur by Rav Zvi Sobolofsky on YUTorah called "Inyanei Sfeikos 12," Rav Sobolofsky discusses the "בית המנוגע" (house of leprosy) and notes that while even though this is something the gemara says will never happen, there are nonetheless very important practical halachos that are learned fro...

Seggan

3:20 PM

@Adám yall have an interesting no-not-reading-i-cant-find-the-right-word :D

still, i think i have explained it. yes, we explicitly violate the torah, and yes we have explicit instructions in the new testament about eating unclean food

Adám

Sure, and fair enough if one doesn't reject those novelties on the basis of pre-existing law.

Seggan

umm that sentence is hard to parse; can you reword it?

Adám

I understand how the new testament permits non-kosher food. Of course, any well-educated orthodox Jew at the time would immediately reject such claims on the basis of existing Jewish law.

Seggan

ah

ty

in fact, some jewish christians still followed the rules about food. paul says somewhere that he followed to rules to not alienate the jews

Adám

Right. Judaism makes no claim that non-Jews have to keep the 613 commandments.

> Everything I command you you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it. (Deut. 13:1)

Clearly, Jesus and/or his Jewish followers were breaking this commandment.

Seggan

3:32 PM

Galations 3:25 "Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."

so he was not following the law, just the bits about food to not anger the jews

Adám

That's in direct contradiction. And even in the unlikely case that such was true prophesy, i.e. the word of God, we'd have to reject it.

Seggan

the verse is in contradiction?

or my statement after?

Adám

"Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." directly goes against "Everything I command you you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it."

Seggan

if we are no longer under the supervision of the law, then we are no longer under the supervision of that commandment, no?

Adám

haha, surely that kind of argument doesn't hold.

Otherwise, what should God have said to prevent such trickery?

Seggan

3:37 PM

we hold that the law was not meant to be permanent

the law was valid up to the point of christ's resurrection

there is a passage on this in hebrews

Hebrews 7:18-19 "The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God."

Adám

Psalms 119;160: all Thy righteous ordinance endureth for ever.

Seggan

the KJV says "Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever."

the hebrew is mishpat

Adám

A courthouse is literally called "beth ha-mishpat", so it very much refers to the laws.

A judge is a "shophet" (p and ph are the same letter)

Seggan

"Rabbi Jonathan Sachs says that both are forms of justice, but are very different in their logic. Mishpat is retributive justice"

apparently the word for Torah does not appear in that verse

Adám

There are plenty of Hebrew words for a law with various nuances, mishpat, chok, torah, din, halakha, mitzvah,…

Seggan

3:50 PM

ok, ill concede

but it still doesnt say "the Law is forever", it says "the laws are forever"

Romans 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John [the Baptist]: since that time the kingdom of heaven is preached."

although you do still have a strong point

i might ask this on hermeneutics.se

Adám

:-)

@Seggan The Torah usually doesn't speak of itself as a single unit, Rather it speaks of collections of ordinances. E.g. Ex. 21:1.

And in Lev. 6 it calls the collection of rules for burnt-offerings "the torah of the burnt-offering" (and similarly about other subjects in multiple places)

Seggan

my wisdom ends there :)

i admit i cannot respond, although i am 100% sure there is an answer to that

Adám

No worries. I'm by no measure a scholar, but I did spend 5 years full time in rabbinical school. I assume that some of the higher-ups in the churches will be able to argue further, though historical debates between rabbis and priests are… interesting.

mathcat

okie

Rydwolf Programs

Well I have no hot water because ice froze our exhaust pipe :|

mathcat

4:03 PM

maths question

Rydwolf Programs

Stupid tankless heater doesn't do what the old ones did...silently fill up a room with carbon monoxide and keep functioning

mathcat

yeah, that's much better

Seggan

@Adám ive posted this on hermeneutics.SE, if you wish to follow :)

mathcat

If I have a prism with the base of an equilateral triangle, the probability of rolling the base is 1/(sqrt(3)a²+12ab), right?

and rolling it again in that order would be ^ squared?

a is the length of the base

It smh feels wrong.

Adám

@Seggan I'll have a look. I believe you'll enjoy Rambam's intro to the Oral law. Rambam is considered the greatest rabbi since Moses.

Seggan

4:08 PM

ty. and if you dont mind, the book of Hebrews in the New Testament would be a good read on what we think of the Law (Galatians has supplementary commentary)

Adám

I have read the new testament, btw, though it was a while ago.

> I was having a conversation with an orthodox Jew over on Code Golf SE on whether we still need to follow the Law or not.

Classic.

Seggan

you have a problem with that?

that is what we were talking about

Adám

No no, the combination of "orthodox Jew" and "Code Golf" on Biblical Hermeneutics is just funny.

Seggan

:D

Adám

4:23 PM

@Seggan An interesting aside that we haven't really addressed is the "we". Orthodox Judaism never claimed that the laws are binding on non-Jews. Non-Jews are for the most part free to keep any additional commandments they want, in addition to their required 7. So really, all the talk of removing laws is only about Jews. Oh, and shouldn't you add one or more verses from Deut. that explicitly prohibit removal of laws?

Seggan

yes i meant "we" as in christians

lemme edit

@Adám the question is about the eternity of the law, not its nullification

Adám

ok

@Seggan Btw, and no offence, but KJV's use of "endureth" is a mistake.

Makes it parallel to 112:3 "his merit endureth for ever"

But the Hebrew word "omedet" (lit. "stands") just isn't there in 119:160.

Seggan

mhm

i know of the KJV's translation faults, its a consequence of the older english

(e.x. "corn" being used instead of "grain")

Adám

That's just modern US usage. Corn=grain in British.

Seggan

huh

parz

4:36 PM

hi

bye

Adám

So without a verb, the default verb is "to be" (which is omitted as in Russian) and it should say "And forever [are] all your laws".

Seggan

can confirm, its omitted in russian

the russian, translated word for word says "foundation [of] word Your true, and eternal any judgments, truth [of] Your"

the [of] is when the word is in the possessive case

so the russian (synodal) agrees with the KJV using "judgments"

Seggan

5:06 PM

got 2 answers :) (the third one doesnt really address the question)

Adám

5:21 PM

@Seggan To me, Those answers answers are pretty "muddled meh" compared to the clarity you maintain.

Seggan

thanks :D

but do they at least satisfy your argument?

Adám

maybe i'm reading them wrong, but they all kind of seem to say "yes, sure, the laws are forever — but now they are obsolete". To which all I have to say is: Wait, what‽

also, the implication that the law is some kind of punishment against us is just weird. that's like saying the manual to a complicated and potentially dangerous machine is oppressive in its prescriptiveness.

Seggan

@Adám not this one

or the first half of the other one

@Adám its not a punishment

Adám

@Seggan that is just dissing King David.

> ordinances that was against us

Seggan

a person more knowledgeable than i told me its a sort of "stepping stone" to what we call the new covenant. imperfect, but pointing to a better time

@Adám is that not what a law is?

even say human laws

speed limits are "ordinances against us", no?

Adám

5:30 PM

@Seggan No, they are a service provided to us, so we don't need to know all the physics needed to determine how we stay safe on each particular stretch of road.

Ps 19:8–9: "The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes."

Seggan

hmm, interesting, this article explains that particular passage that the answer seemingly misquoted

Adám

The law is a tremendous gift, without which we wouldn't know how to live.

Seggan

i agree

@Adám i dont know

i do not have the knowledge to answer

Adám

@Seggan Wow, the danger of translation. Thank you. That article makes much more sense, and indeed Jewish sources agree that Jesus abandoned his Pharisee youth, i.e rejected the oral law, just like the Sadducees. And I can definitely see how the rabbinic enactments can seem excessive and oppressive.

Seggan

@Adám here is another that answers your exact question

(i am beginning to use the internet bc this is the end of my knowledge lol)

Adám

5:41 PM

No worries.

@Seggan It'll probably remain a matter of opinion, but I'll argue that if you look at the very most learned observant Jews (not the common "orthodox-looking fellow" like me), people who studied nothing but Torah their entire lives, you'll find that they achieve almost super-human levels of refined character. Indeed the Vilna Gaon (one of the foremost leaders of Jewry of the past few centuries) says that the purpose of a human life is to overcome and fix one's bad traits.

Rydwolf Programs

Seggan

@Adám even non-followers of the law can have a very refined character. what is God's requirement?

Adám

Oh yes, absolutely. But we see the Torah as a guide to this, not just a revealer of sin. And by no means do we stop at empowering us to overcome sin. That's the minimum; after that, we need to rise above the level of animals (that can't even really sin).

Seggan

6:08 PM

hmm

if that, then what will the Messiah do when he comes?

Adám

6:33 PM

@Seggan See Rambam, Kings and Wars, chapters 11 and 12:

> renew the Davidic dynasty, restoring it to its initial sovereignty. He will build the Temple and gather the dispersed of Israel.

Ginger

6:57 PM

hey @RydwolfPrograms there's been a problem

Seggan

@Adám then how is Isaiah 53 interpreted?

coupled with Daniel 9:24-26 (Christians say it is a countdown towards Jesus' coming), shouldnt that point to Jesus as the Messiah?

Daniel 9:26 "an anointed one shall be cut off"

hmm this new answer is interesting too

Ginger

@RydwolfPrograms due to reasons I am no longer able to access replit, and therefore I can't start the vscode tunnel system; would you mind opening a shell and running code tunnel as the ginger user?

Adám

Isaiah 53

Isaiah 53 is the fifty-third chapter of the Book of Isaiah in the Hebrew Bible or the Old Testament of the Christian Bible. This book contains the prophecies attributed to the prophet Isaiah and is one of the Nevi'im. Chapters 40 through 55 are known as "Deutero-Isaiah" and date from the time of the Israelites' exile in Babylon. This article will address the entire pericope of the Fourth Servant Song, which begins in Isaiah 52:13 and continues to the end of chapter 53. == The Fourth Servant Song: Isaiah 52:13 through 53:12 == Yet it was our sickness that he was bearing, Our suffering...

@Seggan We probably can't go through all the sources, but this might interest you:

Disputation of Barcelona

The Disputation of Barcelona (July 20–24, 1263) was a formal ordered medieval debate between representatives of Christianity and Judaism regarding whether or not Jesus was the Messiah. It was held at the royal palace of King James I of Aragon in the presence of the King, his court, and many prominent ecclesiastical dignitaries and knights, between Dominican Friar Pablo Christiani, a convert from Judaism to Christianity, and Nachmanides (Moshe Ben Nahman, also called Ramban), a leading medieval Jewish scholar, philosopher, physician, kabbalist, and biblical commentator. During the Middle Ages, there...

Seggan

7:24 PM

oooh

interesting

> and among all religions, he claimed that the Christians were the most warlike

that is a violation of Jesus' commandments. most rulers dont claim to be christians anymore

Rydwolf Programs

@Ginger Done

uh...should I've run this in a screen session or smth

It's not exiting

Seggan

ouch

Ginger

@RydwolfPrograms oh dear

it's not working for me

Rydwolf Programs

...is your bash configured to rainbow cowsay a quote lol

Okay I did it in a screen session

Also I really don't have much faith in the security of this

Am I correct that if someone were to guess the little random phrase they'd basically have a superuser shell into my server?

@Ginger

Ginger

@RydwolfPrograms no

I have to be signed in to my GitHub account to use it

it's a GitHub service

Rydwolf Programs

7:36 PM

Ah, right. You're the only one with GitHub perks :p

Ginger

@RydwolfPrograms you can shut it off, I think I got it working remotely

@RydwolfPrograms yeah lol

Rydwolf Programs

Just screen -r and kill it

Ginger

stupid [Hyperlink Blocked] blocking replit

now I'm going to have to use your server for everything :b

@RydwolfPrograms yeah q:

Rydwolf Programs

Hey Ginger what's your favorite Linux distro?

Ginger

Debian

why do you ask?

Rydwolf Programs

7:41 PM

Just curious

Ginger

sus

Rydwolf Programs

Hey ginger have you ever wanted to SSH to root@159.203.185.103

Ginger

I have not, in fact

...I don't recognize that IP? :b

Rydwolf Programs

Maybe you should try, no promises what'll happen

Ginger

hmmmmmmmmmmm

uh okay

Rydwolf Programs

7:45 PM

(hopefully I configured it right lol)

Ginger

permission denied go brrrrrrr

do I need my key?

Rydwolf Programs

I just decomissioned my RTO drop, so I figured I'd switch it to Debian

@Ginger yeah it should use the same key

Ginger

aight one sec

Rydwolf Programs

Also I enabled weekly backups because I know you :p

Ginger

it worked!

so this is my droplet?

Rydwolf Programs

7:48 PM

Yep, pretty much

Ginger

neat!

...I don't own any domains lol

Rydwolf Programs

Oh I didn't think about that lol

Ginger

I'm going to keep the wiki on your droplet if that's ok

Rydwolf Programs

Well...I'm migrating that one too, so you can't for long

Ginger

oof

Rydwolf Programs

7:49 PM

I'm doing a bit of reshuffling, planning on containerizing most of my projects

Ginger

idk what to do then

the wiki needs to go somewhere

Rydwolf Programs

I can change it to redirect to your new droplet

Adám

@Seggan Just on the phone with a friend. He brought an interesting argument that indeed God could change the Torah, but the original was given simultaneously to 600000 grown non-retired men, so about 3 million in total. If he wants to change it, he'd better declare so to a comparable number of people at once.

Rydwolf Programs

Same with complement.amidst

Ginger

hmm

one sec plz

is code.visualstudio.com slow for anyone else?

Rydwolf Programs

7:56 PM

> HTTP Error 503. The service is unavailable.

Altho the error message did load very quikckly

Ginger

lmao

@RydwolfPrograms how should I make a non-root account for me to use?

Rydwolf Programs

adduser ginger

Ginger

I've created a ginger account, should I just set it up as normal?

ok lol

Rydwolf Programs

Make sure to copy the key to its .ssh/authorized_keys, set permissiuons properly, and configure /etc/ssh/sshd_config

I'd use rust_drop's sshd_config as a template, it's got most of the best practices in place

Ginger

aight

Rydwolf Programs

8:03 PM

.ssh should be 700 and .ssh/authorized_keys should be 400

Ginger

@RydwolfPrograms what should I put in sshd_config?

Rydwolf Programs

Check my droplet's changes

Ginger

I don't know what the default is! d:

Rydwolf Programs

Protocol 2, PermitRootLogin no, AllowUsers ginger,

AuthorizedKeysFile .ssh/authorized_keys

PasswordAuthentication no, PermitEmptyPasswords no

Ginger

ok thx

Rydwolf Programs

8:10 PM

Then check for Subsystem sftp just to make sure it's there

Ginger

@RydwolfPrograms help I screwed up

I changed the config without setting my key and logged out, and now I can't log back in to copy my key

:/

Rydwolf Programs

Got it, gimme a sec

Try again

Ginger

worked

Rydwolf Programs

Recovery console ftw

Ginger

looks like I can log in as ginger too

cool and spicy

Rydwolf Programs

8:19 PM

Oh make sure to sudo yourself

If you haven't already

Ginger

oky

brb

user

8:31 PM

Do yourself? sus

Seggan

8:56 PM

@Adám the argument can be made that he is doing that right now (though evangelization)

he appeared to 400 (or was it 500?) people at once, so at least we know it wasnt just his disciples

also iirc God did not give it to all the men simultaneously, he spoke though Moses

Adám

That bears no comparison. I'm talking a clearly visible voice, and clearly audible visions for millions of people in public.

@Seggan The details, yes, but He began with the ten commandments to everyone.

Ex. 20:1: "And God spoke all these words, saying:" and so on.

20:14: "And all the people perceived the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the voice of the horn, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it,"

Note the mistranslated "perceived" here. It says "roim" which is unambiguously "saw". The people saw the thunder and horn, and heard the smoke and lightning. God intentionally transposed the senses and the impressions to show that this was super-natural, and that he controls the laws of nature, and can break them at will.

Ginger

@RydwolfPrograms ok, what do you want me to do with the wiki's code?

Adám

In 20:18 it says "Ye yourselves have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.". Notice the use of vision for the voice. Flipped.

Rydwolf Programs

@Ginger wdym?

Ginger

it can't stay on rust_wolf, so what should I do with it?

idk how nginx works :p

Rydwolf Programs

9:07 PM

You should probably be able to do a base nginx install and copy over my nginx.conf and conf.d/wiki.rto.community.conf